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Post by BadCompany on Sept 17, 2020 9:23:24 GMT -5
A year longer than I would have gone, but looking at the salary structure I see that the final year has a $2 million signing bonus, but only $1 million base salary. So I guess that makes him a potential trade target for a budget team looking to bump up their cap hit without paying any actual money. Let Molson pay the bonus, and then deal him at or before training camp if needed. He has a 10-team no trade list.
This is assuming that Edmundson doesn’t pan out, of course. He just turned 27 (June 28), has size, decent mobility, and has already won a Stanley Cup. I’d be okay with another Chiarot, honestly.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Sept 17, 2020 9:57:19 GMT -5
So 4 of our starting 6 is basically locked in: Petry, Weber, Chiarot, Edmundson.
That leaves 2 spots (1 LD and 1 RD) for the likes of Romanov, Kulak, Mete, and Ouellet who all shoot left.
If I squint hard enough I see a "workmanlike", defense-first blue line that is built in Bergevin's image, but it's not a very dynamic group in terms of overall talent and driving offensive play.
It's OK. Not terrible, not great, just OK. But OK isn't enough.
Also doesn't feel like there is a ton of upside with that group unless Romanov takes off immediately.
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Post by BadCompany on Sept 17, 2020 9:58:04 GMT -5
Interesting article, for those who haven't seen it: www.habseyesontheprize.com/analysis/2020/9/13/21434309/joel-edmundson-video-analysis-advanced-stats-canadiens-trade-blues-hurricanes-defensive-systemNotable take-aways: * Canes played a man-to-man system, which Edmundson does not seem to thrive in * Blues played a zone defense (as Montreal does), which Edmundson seems to be better at * Regular season Edmundson is behind his teammates in advanced metrics * Playoff Edmundson is ABOVE his teammates in advanced metrics Not only are his raw metrics up into the mid-50s, Edmundson now outperforms his teammates — by 2-5% during the Blues’ Stanley Cup run, and by 6-12% during the Hurricanes’ stint in Toronto. Naturally, there are some caveats to this. The playoffs are by nature a limited sample size, Edmundson’s teammates remained very-high-quality players (Pietrangelo in St. Louis and Skjei in Carolina), and Edmundson’s numbers this year are somewhat inflated because he only played one game against the Boston Bruins before being sidelined by injury.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 17, 2020 12:33:11 GMT -5
That article also emphasizes that he helps the PK a lot, but is ineffective at 5v5 offense.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Sept 17, 2020 13:50:57 GMT -5
As much as I love the analytics, it's hard with some of the stats to control for the contribution of a single player relative to who he is with on the ice, who he is against, and what the situation is. With the Corsi possession stats it's hard to tell who is really driving those numbers and who is just along for the ride.
With dmen, I prefer stats that can isolate what the individual player is doing. Metrics like controlled exits, exit zone passes completed, uncontrolled exits/dump outs, dzone loose puck recoveries, dzone turnover rate.
Those are the kinds of stats I'd want to look at. Some are more relevant to offensive-minded players but these are critical skills for a dman. Can Edmundson carry the puck out himself, can he make the good first pass to exit the zone, is he prone to uncontrolled dump outs, can he get to and control loose pucks, how often does he turn the puck over? How often do opposing dump ins come to his side? Of course you can't reduce everything to the stats, it's all about preventing goals, but they can tell you a lot about how effective they are.
Common sense dictates that he's probably pretty average across the board, which is fine because he's not paid to be much better than that.
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 18, 2020 7:15:32 GMT -5
As much as I love the analytics, it's hard with some of the stats to control for the contribution of a single player relative to who he is with on the ice, who he is against, and what the situation is. With the Corsi possession stats it's hard to tell who is really driving those numbers and who is just along for the ride. With dmen, I prefer stats that can isolate what the individual player is doing. Metrics like controlled exits, exit zone passes completed, uncontrolled exits/dump outs, dzone loose puck recoveries, dzone turnover rate. Those are the kinds of stats I'd want to look at. Some are more relevant to offensive-minded players but these are critical skills for a dman. Can Edmundson carry the puck out himself, can he make the good first pass to exit the zone, is he prone to uncontrolled dump outs, can he get to and control loose pucks, how often does he turn the puck over? How often do opposing dump ins come to his side? Of course you can't reduce everything to the stats, it's all about preventing goals, but they can tell you a lot about how effective they are. Common sense dictates that he's probably pretty average across the board, which is fine because he's not paid to be much better than that. With Isles more important guys who play within team structure. Positioning.
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 18, 2020 9:11:18 GMT -5
One thing that hasn't been mentioned...Edmy can and does drop them. He has a few fights in the NHL against some heavywheights, nothing spectacular, but he will drop them to defend or retaliate.
From a toughness standpoint, at least we got that covered by the "Big Four". The rest, well.......
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Post by folatre on Sept 18, 2020 9:53:55 GMT -5
For sure, Edmundson is a big dude who knows how to handle himself. Like Chiarot, he won't back down. Weber is tough, but aside from post-season and the rare occasion here or there, he turned out to be less nasty than I always assumed he was with Nashville.
So all in all, by the standards of today's NHL, Montreal's blueline is plenty big and tough.
Now Bergevin needs to make the forward group a little heavier and harder.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 18, 2020 14:25:40 GMT -5
As much as I love the analytics, it's hard with some of the stats to control for the contribution of a single player relative to who he is with on the ice, who he is against, and what the situation is. With the Corsi possession stats it's hard to tell who is really driving those numbers and who is just along for the ride. With dmen, I prefer stats that can isolate what the individual player is doing. Metrics like controlled exits, exit zone passes completed, uncontrolled exits/dump outs, dzone loose puck recoveries, dzone turnover rate. Those are the kinds of stats I'd want to look at. Some are more relevant to offensive-minded players but these are critical skills for a dman. Can Edmundson carry the puck out himself, can he make the good first pass to exit the zone, is he prone to uncontrolled dump outs, can he get to and control loose pucks, how often does he turn the puck over? How often do opposing dump ins come to his side? Of course you can't reduce everything to the stats, it's all about preventing goals, but they can tell you a lot about how effective they are. Common sense dictates that he's probably pretty average across the board, which is fine because he's not paid to be much better than that. I read one article where those factors were included, but I can't recall who or where in order to pull it up again. (Old age). Not so old that I can't recall some of it, though. He is definitely not a 'skate it out of the zone himself' type of guy. He relies on a defense partner who can do that. Actually now that I think of it, the comments were similar to my opinion of Weber. If he has time, he can make good outlet passes, but is prone to giveaways when pressured. My overall impression is a guy who is very similar to Chiarot, but Ben can occasionally skate the puck out himself. Edmundson is bigger and a bit clunkier. He has decent top end speed, so it's not easy for forwards to blow by him, but his agility (or what the jargon people like to call 'edgework') is not good. Yup....a lot like Weber without as good a shot or quite the strength that Shea has. Except he fights more than Weber, it seems. Shea rarely if ever drops the gloves. A common theme is that this defence will be 'tough to play against'. I cringe when I hear that because it means the opposition is getting crosschecked, boarded, etc, basically because they're in their own end a lot. I'd rather have a defense easy to play against spending 80% of the time in the offensive end.
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 18, 2020 14:42:23 GMT -5
One thing that hasn't been mentioned...Edmy can and does drop them. He has a few fights in the NHL against some heavywheights, nothing spectacular, but he will drop them to defend or retaliate. From a toughness standpoint, at least we got that covered by the "Big Four". The rest, well....... Does more than fight. Averages 122 hits last 4 years. 7 goals in 68 games, first pairing PK.
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 18, 2020 16:35:31 GMT -5
A common theme is that this defence will be 'tough to play against'. I cringe when I hear that because it means the opposition is getting crosschecked, boarded, etc, basically because they're in their own end a lot. I'd rather have a defense easy to play against spending 80% of the time in the offensive end. Yup...they will be tough to play against...so the opposition will take out their frustration on Suzuki. If you built a tough team, it must, absolutely must be tough front to back. Tough like...Dubois tough. But don't worry, the extra toughness will give us plenty of "moral victories"....unfortunately I don't see that moral victory column in the standings. Don't get me wrong, i get a well developed primal arousal from seeing an opponent limp back to his bench, but, if that doesn't get us wins, it's a waste of good but not so plentiful serotonin. At our age, we NEED good dose of serotonin to get up in the morning. (PS...do not infer sexual connotations to my ape hanging.)
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 19, 2020 5:12:28 GMT -5
Imagine he'll push Chiarot to trade market a year and half from now. 3 years from now Habs trade Ed. When our LD prospects are ready.
Get a first for each. Or my hope anyway.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 19, 2020 12:52:00 GMT -5
Theoretically, that sounds reasonable, Gnick. I'm not sure exactly what return he'll get for those guys. They'll be older, slower and still carry a fairly heft CAP, especially if they're playing 3rd pairing by then.
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Post by folatre on Sept 19, 2020 22:26:12 GMT -5
Brenden Dillon is in the same general tier and mold of d-men as Chiarot and Edmundson and the Sharks received late second round pick in 2020 and what will likely be a relatively late 2021 third rounder from Washington. That is solid haul, but expecting a first from that type of player is probably not realistic.
Also, it is entirely possible that Seattle takes one of them since Montreal honestly does not have many forwards who would be both enticing and not exempt from the expansion draft.
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 20, 2020 6:22:18 GMT -5
Theoretically, that sounds reasonable, Gnick. I'm not sure exactly what return he'll get for those guys. They'll be older, slower and still carry a fairly heft CAP, especially if they're playing 3rd pairing by then. Contract be done, we in position to retain. Same as Kivalchuk or Thompson this trade deadline.
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 20, 2020 8:40:49 GMT -5
Imagine he'll push Chiarot to trade market a year and half from now. 3 years from now Habs trade Ed. When our LD prospects are ready. Get a first for each. Or my hope anyway. With the Ed signing, it means we have Left D | Right D | Chiarot | Weber | Edmunson | Petry | Romanov |
| Kulak |
| Mete |
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| Juulsen |
| Fluery |
Edmunson is in the top 4... guaranteed. Given what MB has said about Romanov he'll have every opportunity to make the team but only Romanov and Fleury can be sent down to Laval. So assuming Fluery gets sent down and Ronanov stays up because he's the shiny new toy... that means Romanov-Juulsen is the 3rd pairing (which is fine with me) that leaves one of Kulak or Mete being moved and we carry 7 D. If Romanov is kept up, I can see him with Weber and chiarot with Petry and Ed with Juulsen which gives the 2 young guys a veteran paired with them.
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Post by folatre on Sept 20, 2020 8:49:14 GMT -5
I would want to see if Juulsen can regain game form after playing so very little hockey over the last two years. By all accounts, Fleury was ahead of Juulsen this summer and would have been the next man up had Julien/Muller elected to bench either Ouellet or Mete.
For me it is likelier that Mete plays the right side on the third pair to start the season. Of course, it would be very encouraging and a great story if Juulsen could earn that spot.
Time will say.
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 20, 2020 9:55:37 GMT -5
I would want to see if Juulsen can regain game form after playing so very little hockey over the last two years. By all accounts, Fleury was ahead of Juulsen this summer and would have been the next man up had Julien/Muller elected to bench either Ouellet or Mete. For me it is likelier that Mete plays the right side on the third pair to start the season. Of course, it would be very encouraging and a great story if Juulsen could earn that spot. Time will say. I think the time will have done wonders for Juulsen... given him time to heal up... hopefully the concussion issues are gone... I like the kid and hope he succeeds
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 20, 2020 13:20:29 GMT -5
I think the time will have done wonders for Juulsen... given him time to heal up... hopefully the concussion issues are gone... I like the kid and hope he succeeds From someone who lived with them...migraines are really nasty in that they are uncontrollable and unpredictable. But they also can disappear completely. Unless there is medicine available that i didn't have 30 years ago....I'm not holding up much hope because of they are still bothering him, it could literally mean that in the middle of the game, it can come on and take hours to get rid of them. Here's hoping for the best....
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 24, 2020 8:16:18 GMT -5
Imagine he'll push Chiarot to trade market a year and half from now. 3 years from now Habs trade Ed. When our LD prospects are ready. Get a first for each. Or my hope anyway. With the Ed signing, it means we have Left D | Right D | Chiarot | Weber | Edmunson | Petry | Romanov |
| Kulak |
| Mete |
|
| Juulsen |
| Fluery |
Edmunson is in the top 4... guaranteed. Given what MB has said about Romanov he'll have every opportunity to make the team but only Romanov and Fleury can be sent down to Laval. So assuming Fluery gets sent down and Ronanov stays up because he's the shiny new toy... that means Romanov-Juulsen is the 3rd pairing (which is fine with me) that leaves one of Kulak or Mete being moved and we carry 7 D. If Romanov is kept up, I can see him with Weber and chiarot with Petry and Ed with Juulsen which gives the 2 young guys a veteran paired with them. Yeah, we can send Fleury down? You could be right, I never checked it. But I don't want to lose him to waivers. I thing Bergs original plan was re-sign Scandella. After he liked St.Louis, he had change of plans. Who you like better, Scandella or Edmunddon? But got 2nd while only given up 5th. Plus JE a touch cheaper. So, better in that sense. I think both 5th though. I think we should use our cap more like this. Retain to increase value of our players. Instead of not spending it. I did breakdown of Timmins draft about month ago. In late rounds, he is among weaker chief scout in league. But in first 2 rounds, average to slight above average. So, moving 4 and 5th round picks for 1st and 2nds, sounds like gold to me. Anyway, been here much too long.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Sept 24, 2020 13:01:20 GMT -5
Imagine he'll push Chiarot to trade market a year and half from now. 3 years from now Habs trade Ed. When our LD prospects are ready. Get a first for each. Or my hope anyway. With the Ed signing, it means we have Left D | Right D | Chiarot | Weber | Edmunson | Petry | Romanov |
| Kulak |
| Mete |
|
| Juulsen |
| Fluery |
Edmunson is in the top 4... guaranteed. Given what MB has said about Romanov he'll have every opportunity to make the team but only Romanov and Fleury can be sent down to Laval. So assuming Fluery gets sent down and Ronanov stays up because he's the shiny new toy... that means Romanov-Juulsen is the 3rd pairing (which is fine with me) that leaves one of Kulak or Mete being moved and we carry 7 D. If Romanov is kept up, I can see him with Weber and chiarot with Petry and Ed with Juulsen which gives the 2 young guys a veteran paired with them. I guess that drops Alzner to 13th and Streit to 14th?
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 26, 2020 5:55:51 GMT -5
Nobody's opinion on who you would rather have on blueline, Scandella or Edmundson. Or, did I miss it?
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