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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 5, 2023 20:47:02 GMT -5
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Post by folatre on Mar 5, 2023 21:19:26 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing, Willie. That is interesting. I was not aware of it for guys not in the 35+ category.
However, I would be very hesitant nevertheless. For example, I would not want to give him $2+ million in base or big bonus targets that could cause a spillover hit the Habs cap situation in 2024-25 when Dubois could be lined up for serious money as a UFA.
And from his perspective, why would an injury prone guy not go to market to see if someone will give him 3 years/$3 million AAV? If my body was breaking down, I want to maximize security via what could likely be my last NHL contract. If you fear injuries, taking a one year bonus focused deal would be at the bottom of your preferred alternatives.
I would leave the door open a crack, perhaps. But honestly, Hughes conducted shrewd business to extract a first rounder from Calgary so at this point I am ready to move on and plenty satisfied with the return Montreal received. The idea that the 'unfinished business' (i.e. moving the player at the 2024 deadline) is worth taking on the risk of causing cap problems in 2024-25 when the Habs should be trying to actually turn the corner and play competitive hockey does seem compelling.
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 5, 2023 21:27:23 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing, Willie. That is interesting. I was not aware of it for guys not in the 35+ category. However, I would be very hesitant nevertheless. For example, I would not want to give him $2+ million in base or big bonus targets that could cause a spillover hit the Habs cap situation in 2024-25 when Dubois could be lined up for serious money as a UFA. And from his perspective, why would an injury prone guy not go to market to see if someone will give him 3 years/$3 million AAV? If my body was breaking down, I want to maximize security via what could likely be my last NHL contract. If you fear injuries, taking a one year bonus focused deal would be at the bottom of your preferred alternatives. I would leave the door open a crack, perhaps. But honestly, Hughes conducted shrewd business to extract a first rounder from Calgary so at this point I am ready to move on and plenty satisfied with the return Montreal received. The idea that the 'unfinished business' (i.e. moving the player at the 2024 deadline) is worth taking on the risk of causing cap problems in 2024-25 when the Habs should be trying to actually turn the corner and play competitive hockey does seem compelling. I don't think anyone will give him 3 mill, 3 year deal unless they were very very sure he isn't fragile which is what he is right now... |
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Post by PTH on Mar 5, 2023 23:32:21 GMT -5
My first thought was that I'd rather sign Drouin to a show-me contract, than sign Monahan.
Drouin has his own issues, but he remains a productive player who we might get a 2nd for a the deadline if he's having a 50-point season. Monahan I expect will be hurt or sufficiently suspect that he won't be worth much of anything.
I'm torn. This might be a way to keep Monahan around while seeming to believe in him, without wasting too large a cap hit on him if he keeps on stumbling from one injury to another. The fact the salary gets kicked one year later is likely to be of more interest to other teams (in tighter cap situations) than to us, though.
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 6, 2023 6:33:54 GMT -5
I think everyone on this board knows how I feel about Drouin... I don't think he deserves another contract from this organization... time for him to move on somewhere else.
With the emergence of Dach, that means we can put Monahan in 3c and Evans at 4 C... I assume dvo will be gone in the summer
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Post by jkr on Mar 6, 2023 10:58:04 GMT -5
One reason to keep Monahan around, IMO, is that Slafkovsky's best play seemed to happen when paired with Monahan. Other than that, I dont think it's worth the risk.
As for Drouin, please no. He's shown so little the last 5 years. We should be thankful the contract is expiring.
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Post by PTH on Mar 6, 2023 11:24:50 GMT -5
With the emergence of Dach, that means we can put Monahan in 3c and Evans at 4 C... I assume dvo will be gone in the summer Given how those guys all seem to get injured often... this would mean our C's would at some point be effectively Suzuki-Pitlick-Belzile-Tierney. I would not let Dvorak go until we have at least one other C who tends to stay healthy 75+ games every year. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 6, 2023 13:59:56 GMT -5
With the emergence of Dach, that means we can put Monahan in 3c and Evans at 4 C... I assume dvo will be gone in the summer Given how those guys all seem to get injured often... this would mean our C's would at some point be effectively Suzuki-Pitlick-Belzile-Tierney. I would not let Dvorak go until we have at least one other C who tends to stay healthy 75+ games every year. 75+ games... seems like a lot to go without an injury... I've heard talk that dvo may be moved in the summer... kinda have the feeling he wants to be in the US like Dads... |
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Post by seventeen on Mar 6, 2023 14:21:37 GMT -5
Given how much I appreciate Monahan, I'd sign him. His first 6 years he was very durable. The hip injuries set him back, but that appears to be the only issue he had. If those are now corrected (and they seemed to be from his play early on) then one can hardly fault him for a broken toe. That's bad luck. Injuries from blocked shots are prevalent everywhere now.
The more important thing is either management involving themselves in medical decisions, or the Medical staff letting themselves be swayed by the player and/or management to bring players back into games when they're not at least 95% healthy.
Some time off to get better is what Monahan needs most, and to rehab slowly. I think he has value beyond a 1 year contract but that, again, may be me wearing rose coloured glasses and drinking from a half full cup.
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Post by PTH on Mar 6, 2023 15:34:00 GMT -5
Given how those guys all seem to get injured often... this would mean our C's would at some point be effectively Suzuki-Pitlick-Belzile-Tierney. I would not let Dvorak go until we have at least one other C who tends to stay healthy 75+ games every year. 75+ games... seems like a lot to go without an injury... I've heard talk that dvo may be moved in the summer... kinda have the feeling he wants to be in the US like Dads... I guess my comment is more that I'd had another option as #3C than Monahan, if we're moving on from Dvorak. Couldn't we find a 23 year old who isn't getting needed ice time where he is, kind of like Danault when we got him? Someone who could grow into the #3C role, hopefully. I used to think that could be Evans, but he doesn't have the durability to be a building block. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 6, 2023 15:49:34 GMT -5
75+ games... seems like a lot to go without an injury... I've heard talk that dvo may be moved in the summer... kinda have the feeling he wants to be in the US like Dads... I guess my comment is more that I'd had another option as #3C than Monahan, if we're moving on from Dvorak. Couldn't we find a 23 year old who isn't getting needed ice time where he is, kind of like Danault when we got him? Someone who could grow into the #3C role, hopefully. I used to think that could be Evans, but he doesn't have the durability to be a building block. Evans hasn't been the same since Schitfle... I agree, another Danault would be ideal, and maybe we can find one within or get one in the summer, but I still think we should give Monahan a shot if it isn't too expensive cap wise... This was a much better team with him than without him imo... Slaf was playing much better as well. |
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Post by folatre on Mar 6, 2023 17:24:07 GMT -5
I thought Evans was pretty good last season, one of the few bright spots on a death march to 32nd in the league. Now I am not saying he totally convinced me he could ever be a legit 3C on a competitive team. But this season has been a regression and frankly it seems like counting on him to be anything more than a fourth liner and penalty killer is unrealistic.
However, Dach settled in at centre so really the need for a vet 3C would depend entirely on what Hughes elects to do with Dvorak. If management is satisfied with Dvorak and the player enjoys being part of the group, then there would seemingly be no rush to trade him and thus no compelling reason to bet on Monahan.
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Post by PTH on Mar 6, 2023 17:41:16 GMT -5
I thought Evans was pretty good last season, one of the few bright spots on a death march to 32nd in the league. Now I am not saying he totally convinced me he could ever be a legit 3C on a competitive team. But this season has been a regression and frankly it seems like counting on him to be anything more than a fourth liner and penalty killer is unrealistic. However, Dach settled in at centre so really the need for a vet 3C would depend entirely on what Hughes elects to do with Dvorak. If management is satisfied with Dvorak and the player enjoys being part of the group, then there would seemingly be no rush to trade him and thus no compelling reason to bet on Monahan. OTOH, Monahan makes more sense as a winger (who might fill in at center), in which case his injury issues aren't as much of a risk, than as a center we would be counting on. It also depends on whose spot he'd be taking. We only have so many roster spots... |
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 6, 2023 18:00:49 GMT -5
Our 1stOA needs a mentor to teach him...Monahan did that this season, you saw Slaf grow a bit and start to get it...it sucks that they both got hurt, If you bring in Monahan to play right wing/centre on a line with Slaf and someone else at right/centre I'm ok with that... Or you put Slaf with Dach
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Post by folatre on Mar 7, 2023 11:05:50 GMT -5
PTH, it is a valid observation that at this stage of his career Monahan is better suited to play wing. And you follow up with another legitimate point: there are only so many roster spots available.
So if we work from the assumption that Suzuki, Dubois or Dvorak, Dach, and Evans are the Habs centres in 2023-24, the question becomes is there really any room for Monahan on the wing?
I may accidentally leave someone out, but the Habs have the following wingers with NHL experience: Caufield, Anderson, Hoffman, Gallagher, Slafkovsky, Harvey-Pinard, Armia, Pezzetta, and Ylonen. I exclude Belzile and Pitlick because they are marginal tweeners and the organization already knows what they are.
So among the nine wingers I thought of, of course there are guys rational Habs fans (and I presume management as well) would like to discard -- Hoffman, Gallagher, and Armia. The problem is that getting rid of any of them would require gifting useful assets, retaining money, or chewing on dead cap money. Therefore, it is depressing but for me it would quite surprising if any of those three were not Habs when camp opens in September.
Some people may reasonably conclude Monahan is a better NHL player than Harvey-Pinard, Ylonen, and Pezzetta. Well, perhaps, but the relevant issues here are roles and creating a large enough sample size for management to know what they have. 2023-24 seems like an ideal year to continue seeing what Harvey-Pinard and Ylonen are as NHL players because there are not really any talented kids knocking yet on the door and fan expectations are modest (assuming Dubois is not on the team). Pezzetta is fourth liner who hits and fights (six fights already this season) so I do not buy the premise that a "better" winger makes him expendable. Does management really want Xhekaj to police the ice alone and to drop the gloves like twenty times a season?
Basically the only way I would re-sign Monahan is in the event that a vet contributing little gets traded or bought out.
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 7, 2023 11:35:09 GMT -5
PTH, it is a valid observation that at this stage of his career Monahan is better suited to play wing. And you follow up with another legitimate point: there are only so many roster spots available. So if we work from the assumption that Suzuki, Dubois or Dvorak, Dach, and Evans are the Habs centres in 2023-24, the question becomes is there really any room for Monahan on the wing? I may accidentally leave someone out, but the Habs have the following wingers with NHL experience: Caufield, Anderson, Hoffman, Gallagher, Slafkovsky, Harvey-Pinard, Armia, Pezzetta, and Ylonen. I exclude Belzile and Pitlick because they are marginal tweeners and the organization already knows what they are. So among the nine wingers I thought of, of course there are guys rational Habs fans (and I presume management as well) would like to discard -- Hoffman, Gallagher, and Armia. The problem is that getting rid of any of them would require gifting useful assets, retaining money, or chewing on dead cap money. Therefore, it is depressing but for me it would quite surprising if any of those three were not Habs when camp opens in September. Some people may reasonably conclude Monahan is a better NHL player than Harvey-Pinard, Ylonen, and Pezzetta. Well, perhaps, but the relevant issues here are roles and creating a large enough sample size for management to know what they have. 2023-24 seems like an ideal year to continue seeing what Harvey-Pinard and Ylonen are as NHL players because there are not really any talented kids knocking yet on the door and fan expectations are modest (assuming Dubois is not on the team). Pezzetta is fourth liner who hits and fights (six fights already this season) so I do not buy the premise that a "better" winger makes him expendable. Does management really want Xhekaj to police the ice alone and to drop the gloves like twenty times a season? Basically the only way I would re-sign Monahan is in the event that a vet contributing little gets traded or bought out. ok, then the question I ask is "Who will mentor Slaf?". I remember when Patches was new to the team, he was paired with Eric Cole. Cole taught him how to become a power forward. Who on this team can teach Sklaf to be a smart player and become dominant? CC? Anderson? Hoffman? Drouin? Armia? Who? |
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Post by PTH on Mar 7, 2023 13:22:51 GMT -5
Well, if it's about who mentors Slaf, then we have to wonder who gets moved out to keep Monahan. Maybe we accept (likely) losing Pezzetta or Ylonen to waivers if they are sent down when the team is healthy, but that's a heavy price to pay to keep an injury-prone guy around, in the hope he's healthy enough to mentor a kid and/or fetch a worthwhile return at the deadline.
I'd rather let the coaches and development staff coach him, veterans like Anderson and Dvorak can help Slaf become a pro, and go from there.
I just see Monahan as a guaranteed distraction without sufficient reward if we keep him around.
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Post by Cranky on Mar 7, 2023 15:12:35 GMT -5
Dvorak goes nowhere without another center...named Dubois.
Monahan is NOT the solution because he simply can not be relied on. Nor can we afford to keep him on and lose a younger developing player.
The old "better with less" applies here.
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Post by seventeen on Mar 7, 2023 16:09:21 GMT -5
To quote my favourite philosopher, Marc Bergevin, "In my ideal world" the roster would be
Caufield - Suzuki - Ylonen (Jesse is fast enough and defensively aware enough and has a good enough shot to add to that line)
Slaf - Dach - Farrel (Farrell is a natural scorer and the sizes of the other 2 make up for Farrell's stature)
RHP - Monahan - Bedard (OK, ok, if not Bedard, then a healthy Gallagher. It is MY ideal world after all)
someone - Evans/Beck - Armia
Guhle - Barron
Matheson - Harris
Xhekaj - someone
The Someone's could be from this year's draft (in a couple of years) or Hutson, Stuble (long shot) or a guy we trade for because we have moved Anderson, Edmundson, Kovacevic, Hoffman and Dvorak. That line-up would need tweaking because of things like left/right dmen, the arrivals of Roy and Kidney, Engstrom and Mailloux.
A real key will be the 2 picks this year...what position they are, how talented they are, etc. If one of those is Michkov, well he replaces Gallagher quickly. The odds of Bedard are low, but not so much for Michkov and I'd take my chances with him. I don't think any Russian players are really keen on staying in the KHL if they can make the NHL and earn much bigger contracts, with a better lifestyle and no oligarchs telling you what to do. How many elite Russian players are still in the KHL? Even a guy like Kuzmenko, who is good but not in the Kaprizov or Michkov class, is in the NHL. It's not a gamble to me, just asset management as we may have to wait 3 seasons. Normally that's just development time, but I doubt Michkov needs any more development to put up points in the NHL right now. I will be disappointed if we get a pick anywhere from 4-7 and can pick Michkov and don't.
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Post by Skilly on Mar 7, 2023 17:13:48 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing, Willie. That is interesting. I was not aware of it for guys not in the 35+ category. However, I would be very hesitant nevertheless. For example, I would not want to give him $2+ million in base or big bonus targets that could cause a spillover hit the Habs cap situation in 2024-25 when Dubois could be lined up for serious money as a UFA. And from his perspective, why would an injury prone guy not go to market to see if someone will give him 3 years/$3 million AAV? If my body was breaking down, I want to maximize security via what could likely be my last NHL contract. If you fear injuries, taking a one year bonus focused deal would be at the bottom of your preferred alternatives. I would leave the door open a crack, perhaps. But honestly, Hughes conducted shrewd business to extract a first rounder from Calgary so at this point I am ready to move on and plenty satisfied with the return Montreal received. The idea that the 'unfinished business' (i.e. moving the player at the 2024 deadline) is worth taking on the risk of causing cap problems in 2024-25 when the Habs should be trying to actually turn the corner and play competitive hockey does seem compelling. The Monahan deal is not completed yet. We still owe Calgary “future considerations “ |
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Post by Skilly on Mar 7, 2023 17:29:16 GMT -5
To quote my favourite philosopher, Marc Bergevin, "In my ideal world" the roster would be Caufield - Suzuki - Ylonen (Jesse is fast enough and defensively aware enough and has a good enough shot to add to that line) Slaf - Dach - Farrel (Farrell is a natural scorer and the sizes of the other 2 make up for Farrell's stature) RHP - Monahan - Bedard (OK, ok, if not Bedard, then a healthy Gallagher. It is MY ideal world after all) someone - Evans/Beck - Armia Guhle - Barron Matheson - Harris Xhekaj - someone The Someone's could be from this year's draft (in a couple of years) or Hutson, Stuble (long shot) or a guy we trade for because we have moved Anderson, Edmundson, Kovacevic, Hoffman and Dvorak. That line-up would need tweaking because of things like left/right dmen, the arrivals of Roy and Kidney, Engstrom and Mailloux. A real key will be the 2 picks this year...what position they are, how talented they are, etc. If one of those is Michkov, well he replaces Gallagher quickly. The odds of Bedard are low, but not so much for Michkov and I'd take my chances with him. I don't think any Russian players are really keen on staying in the KHL if they can make the NHL and earn much bigger contracts, with a better lifestyle and no oligarchs telling you what to do. How many elite Russian players are still in the KHL? Even a guy like Kuzmenko, who is good but not in the Kaprizov or Michkov class, is in the NHL. It's not a gamble to me, just asset management as we may have to wait 3 seasons. Normally that's just development time, but I doubt Michkov needs any more development to put up points in the NHL right now. I will be disappointed if we get a pick anywhere from 4-7 and can pick Michkov and don't. Three forwards under 5’10 is not ideal. (caufield, Farrell, Gallagher) We’d need an enforcer that’s not a defenseman , basically wasting a roster spot to protect smurfs from Gargamels. And then we’d be back to the days of Montreal turning blind eyes as the forwards get pounded cleanly. (You never let your players get pounded cleanly without responding. Why? Because if you do, your stars will pay. Reacting only when a Suzuki gets hit, is too late when Suze is on LTiR with a concussion) Riley Kidney is 20 yrs old and 175lbs soaking wet . Then add to that that Mesar is 5’10. |
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Post by folatre on Mar 7, 2023 17:39:20 GMT -5
Futures eh, I think Treliving gets three complimentary toasties and a couple of cold pops next time he is in the Bell Centre.
Who will mentor Slafkovsky? How about the kid play with Suzuki (and Caufield). The Captain is smart and relatable.
For me I think the team as a whole needs to have a handful of team-first vets around. But I am not so sure it is wise for management to see any one particular vet as the absolute make or break key to mentoring any one particular kid. For instance, Guhle raves about the presence of Edmundson on the bench and the pointers he receives from him. Does that mean Hughes should not trade Edmundson this summer. Of course not. If someone meets the asking price for the veteran d-man, then it is time to move on.
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Post by Cranky on Mar 7, 2023 18:54:15 GMT -5
IF I was GM, my mother would fear the trade deadline. Forget the wife. She's gone for future considerations.  |
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 7, 2023 21:01:13 GMT -5
IF I was GM, my mother would fear the trade deadline. Forget the wife. She's gone for future considerations. That should be in the habs dressing room |
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 7, 2023 21:11:35 GMT -5
Futures eh, I think Treliving gets three complimentary toasties and a couple of cold pops next time he is in the Bell Centre. Who will mentor Slafkovsky? How about the kid play with Suzuki (and Caufield). The Captain is smart and relatable. For me I think the team as a whole needs to have a handful of team-first vets around. But I am not so sure it is wise for management to see any one particular vet as the absolute make or break key to mentoring any one particular kid. For instance, Guhle raves about the presence of Edmundson on the bench and the pointers he receives from him. Does that mean Hughes should not trade Edmundson this summer. Of course not. If someone meets the asking price for the veteran d-man, then it is time to move on. I don't think slaf works on a line with Suze and CC... he would be better off with Dach imo... If Monahan is gone and Dvo gets moved, who will be the 3C because I don't think Evans can do it... |
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Post by folatre on Mar 7, 2023 21:35:04 GMT -5
For me the main thing the "third wheel" on the top line needs is size, puck protection, relatively good speed, passing skill, and a dangerous shot though not a shooter-first type guy.
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Post by seventeen on Mar 7, 2023 23:12:38 GMT -5
IF I was GM, my mother would fear the trade deadline. Forget the wife. She's gone for future considerations. Better by stock in Uber Eats then, or Door Dash or Skip. Or Kraft dinner. |
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Post by seventeen on Mar 7, 2023 23:13:28 GMT -5
For me the main thing the "third wheel" on the top line needs is size, puck protection, relatively good speed, passing skill, and a dangerous shot though not a shooter-first type guy. Still sounds like Ylonen. |
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Post by folatre on Mar 8, 2023 13:19:24 GMT -5
Jeje, it could be.
Maybe in time Ylonen can create space more frequently with his speed, but it would surprise me if he learns to create space with his frame. He has decent size, though so do Dvorak and Hoffman, but Ylonen is not a big winger.
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Post by habsorbed on Mar 9, 2023 2:21:01 GMT -5
Jeje, it could be. Maybe in time Ylonen can create space more frequently with his speed, but it would surprise me if he learns to create space with his frame. He has decent size, though so do Dvorak and Hoffman, but Ylonen is not a big winger. Going forward Ylo is far ahead of Dvo and Hoff. He's a much better skater and can make moves which the other two can't. And he's much younger with much more potential for development. |
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