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Post by Tankdriver on May 17, 2023 11:23:31 GMT -5
So the Fab 4 in Toronto failed to get it done again in the playoff and for once there seems like change is in the air. The two most rumored players that seems to be available are Nylander and Marner. Would you make an offer for either one?
I wouldn't be against it, but you figure Toronto wants NHL players more than prospects. I think it takes more than this, but would you trade Josh Anderson in a package (picks or prospects) for Marner? Or maybe a 1 for 1 for Nylander?
Just throwing out stuff in the wind.
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Post by Willie Dog on May 17, 2023 11:34:20 GMT -5
no desire for any of the core from that team... they are all heartless... we don't need regular season heroes and playoff zeroes.... Which is what they are
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Post by madhabber on May 17, 2023 13:38:55 GMT -5
I would not go for either player and it has nothing to do with who the players are or where they play or anything like that.
We are rebuilding and trading for either of those players would cost us plenty in players from the present day roster and in futures. This would be a Bergevin-move where you abandon your plan all because someone flashed a shinny new toy in front of you.
PL Dubois is a different story to me, because the cost is not prohibitive. At least what everyone is ready to offer and what the Jets can realistically get in exchange.
So Dubois - yes if not too costly.
Marner / Nylander - no. The Leafs are not rebuilding.
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Post by folatre on May 17, 2023 14:12:55 GMT -5
They are both elite talents and young enough to be valuable to either contenders or up and coming teams. Marner is almost a $11 million AAV and with two years remaining on his current deal, the team acquiring him cannot even start talking contract until July 1, 2024 so that is real complication. I just do not see the fit for Montreal (or hardly any teams around the league for that matter). And basically I think Toronto ends up keeping Marner because there will probably be something of a mismatch between how the Leafs see him (100 point play driver who is also good on puck retrieval and kills penalties) and how most GMs see him (fantastic player at a position that few teams want to break the bank for and a soft guy whose playoff resume is kind of meh).
Nylander is a different story. More teams can bid because contenders may not mind just having an elite piece as a one year rental and whoever acquires him can actually start talking extension with him this summer. And because he is a UFA next summer, if Dubas cannot sign him soon then basically all you can do is take the best offer on the table, whereas I could see Toronto walking away from the best offer for Marner because they will ultimately feel hey that offer was not good enough and we do not have to cave in.
I would be shocked to see a rebuilding team like the Habs get seriously involved in trade talks for a high-priced winger. For me wingers are the last piece of the puzzle that you add.
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Post by seventeen on May 17, 2023 14:18:27 GMT -5
As the mad one says, the timeline doesn't fit for either of those guys. Marner is better at 25 years of age (Nylander is 27) but our core is 19-23. Both would cost a lot more than just Josh Anderson. Marner is a 100 point guy and Nylander is a ppg player who popped 40 goals this past year as well as 10 points in 11 playoff games. He isn't affected by the moment. I don't know where guys get certain reputations. Marner is a near ppg guy in 50 playoff games. He doesn't disappear, but many TO fans would label him a choker. Regardless, if we were about to contend next year, sure, one of those two would be great. We're not contending, so no thank you. As an aside, there is a ton of squawking on Twitter about the BIG change needed on the Leafs. The very first thing everyone (and I mean everyone) has decided on is that Matthews is safe because he is the 'face of the franchise".  WTF. He's #1 on my list to get rid of if I'm a Leafs GM. He's been a loser his entire career. He was on two WJC US teams and both lost each year. He got bounced in the first round with Zurich in the Swiss playoffs and he has lost in 7 playoff series with the Leafs. Duh. Hit yourself on the head with that club....again and again. Marner has won a Memorial Cup and has saved the Leafs bacon on numerous occasions and yet he is the guy Leaf fans are targeting, (along with Nylander). I don't get the fascination with Matthews. He'd return the most, he'll be hard to re-sign, he will hurt the CAP the most and, worst of all, I can't stand his mustache. You'd get a huge haul for him, both in quality and quantity. You could remake the team and plug a lot of holes, all in one move. You'd still have Tavares at centre and you could re-sign O'Reilly for a smaller amount and you could get a very good centre as part of the compensation, along with an A+ defense prospect. It makes so much sense and yet, their fans are painting a target on Marner's back. No wonder Leaf fans are losers. |
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Post by seventeen on May 17, 2023 14:25:55 GMT -5
Nylander is a different story. More teams can bid because contenders may not mind just having an elite piece as a one year rental and whoever acquires him can actually start talking extension with him this summer. And because he is a UFA next summer, if Dubas cannot sign him soon then basically all you can do is take the best offer on the table, whereas I could see Toronto walking away from the best offer for Marner because they will ultimately feel hey that offer was not good enough and we do not have to cave in. I would be shocked to see a rebuilding team like the Habs get seriously involved in trade talks for a high-priced winger. For me wingers are the last piece of the puzzle that you add. I wouldn't touch Nylander with the proverbial 3 metre pole and it has nothing to do with his talent. His family is like the Tkachuk's, a real pain in the tush when it comes to contract negotiating. It's not worth the headache. Besides, he's a right winger and we have Anderson, Gallagher (who is revived), Caufield, Jesse Ylonen, Joshua Roy, Sean Farrell, Emil Heiniman and possibly Luke Tuch all as right wingers. Not all will be here in 3 years time, but I bet 4 of them will be. |
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Post by jkr on May 17, 2023 15:40:39 GMT -5
I agree about Nylander and the contract. I remember when that signing happened. Nylander held out and did not report. The deadline for him to sign & be able to play in the NHL that season was December 1. That was the day he signed.
None of the core 4 cut the Leafs any slack on the term or the money.
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Post by Skilly on May 17, 2023 17:46:25 GMT -5
Nylander is a different story. More teams can bid because contenders may not mind just having an elite piece as a one year rental and whoever acquires him can actually start talking extension with him this summer. And because he is a UFA next summer, if Dubas cannot sign him soon then basically all you can do is take the best offer on the table, whereas I could see Toronto walking away from the best offer for Marner because they will ultimately feel hey that offer was not good enough and we do not have to cave in. I would be shocked to see a rebuilding team like the Habs get seriously involved in trade talks for a high-priced winger. For me wingers are the last piece of the puzzle that you add. I wouldn't touch Nylander with the proverbial 3 metre pole and it has nothing to do with his talent. His family is like the Tkachuk's, a real pain in the tush when it comes to contract negotiating. It's not worth the headache. Besides, he's a right winger and we have Anderson, Gallagher (who is revived), Caufield, Jesse Ylonen, Joshua Roy, Sean Farrell, Emil Heiniman and possibly Luke Tuch all as right wingers. Not all will be here in 3 years time, but I bet 4 of them will be. Pin this post. I say ONE will be here |
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Post by Skilly on May 17, 2023 17:48:59 GMT -5
We don’t have the ability to give up the assets to get either one
Just based on that we walk away. A trade for either of them costs us Suzuki
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Post by PTH on May 17, 2023 18:49:01 GMT -5
Marner is intriguing in that his AAV makes it harder to move that contract, so we might be able to acquire him cheaper if we are able to absorb the full cap hit.
I don't see how this could realistically happen since Toronto would want some hefty futures, though.
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Post by folatre on May 17, 2023 21:18:15 GMT -5
Plenty of guys can perform on their off-wing. So I think the situation will be relatively fluid in 2023-24 and beyond. However, I would concede Skilly's main point (assuming I interpreted it correctly) that most of the kids (league wide attrition rates say so) won't make it and every veteran essentially has a shelf-life too.
Given the massive impact of injuries on Gallagher's career in recent years, I would estimate that he will be lucky to play in two-thirds of the Habs games over the next three seasons and will be bought out the summer before the final season on his contract.
However, back to subject of trading for big-name wingers, I just do not really see it in the short-run. I mean, with Caufield because his play backs it up and Slafkovsky because was a first overall pick, Montreal already has two wingers in their 'core.' How many wingers do contenders typically have in their core group? Hockey is debatable, but for me ideally the emerging contender has a goalie, three d-men, three centres, and a couple of wingers in the core group and those are the guys eating most of the cap as the team matures into a full fledged contender.
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Post by seventeen on May 17, 2023 23:03:40 GMT -5
I may not have been clear in my earlier post, dissing Nylander (but not his hockey skills or determination). I wouldn't want Nylander, Marner, Tavares or Matthews. These are all guys in Toronto's 'contending timeline", not ours. They don't fit, as folatre suggests above, where we are trying to accumulate our own 'core'. We need to avoid making the mistakes the Leafs have made with our core. Our core has to be a mix of centres, defensemen, an elite scoring winger and a steady, average goalie.
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Post by Polarice on May 18, 2023 6:31:50 GMT -5
I would love to have Nylander on this team...IMO he's one of the few on the Leafs that plays with any effort. If we could get him driving the net a little more he would be the perfect fit.
I would offer one of our firsts and a vet of some sort. The first would depend on which vet we send.
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Post by mikeg on May 18, 2023 6:56:24 GMT -5
I don't want overpaid underachievers, so that's a pass from me.
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Post by seventeen on May 18, 2023 11:51:46 GMT -5
I don't want overpaid underachievers, so that's a pass from me. He has flaws but I'm not sure he could be classed an underachiever, unless you expect him to be a superstar. He has put up .825 ppg over his career, in mostly a low scoring era. Last year, when scoring rose, he put up 1.06 ppg and he has always produced in the playoffs, too. The guys who haven't come through in crunch time have been the 'other' 3. Having said that, I don't want him either because of age and contract issues. Good player, though. |
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Post by Tankdriver on May 18, 2023 14:02:29 GMT -5
I wouldn't touch Nylander with the proverbial 3 metre pole and it has nothing to do with his talent. His family is like the Tkachuk's, a real pain in the tush when it comes to contract negotiating. It's not worth the headache. Besides, he's a right winger and we have Anderson, Gallagher (who is revived), Caufield, Jesse Ylonen, Joshua Roy, Sean Farrell, Emil Heiniman and possibly Luke Tuch all as right wingers. Not all will be here in 3 years time, but I bet 4 of them will be. Pin this post. I say ONE will be here I am confused. Which one do you think? Also I can't see Suzuki going the other way. Marner is what? Just turning 27? He is not that old. It is just he only has 2 years left on his contract. Skill wise there is no contest, but if the leafs want toughness, or pain in the butt players, Gallagher and Anderson is the type they need. Trade wise it doesn't make sense though. |
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Post by Skilly on May 18, 2023 15:43:51 GMT -5
Pin this post. I say ONE will be here I am confused. Which one do you think? Also I can't see Suzuki going the other way. Marner is what? Just turning 27? He is not that old. It is just he only has 2 years left on his contract. Skill wise there is no contest, but if the leafs want toughness, or pain in the butt players, Gallagher and Anderson is the type they need. Trade wise it doesn't make sense though. For Marner? So let's say you are trading a 99 point player. Who are you asking for on the Habs? It's not all the 40 point players. It's the only guy on the team to put up any points. Habs fans got to get over this notion that we can get players "on the cheap" As for the one player that will be here in three years time ... it's Caufield. |
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