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Post by Skilly on Dec 11, 2023 17:14:17 GMT -5
Not Slafs best game but he was still the least mistake prone of his line. Both Suze and Cole are awful and not just this game. Hugo better hope the two are having an off season as those two are nowhere near $8 million players. Nick is completely disinterested - not a good look for a captain. And Cole is just a fumble and fan machine. I'm beginning to realize why most teams let him drop to 16th overall. Maybe we need to get Ducharme back to bench him for a bit  It's been a disappointing year. Our "tie adjusted" record is 5-13-10. Our -21 GF/GA differential is worst in the Eastern Conference and tied for 4th worst in the NHL. By all accounts were are a bottom 5 team and I thought we'd be closer to a bottom 10 team. And the two biggest reasons, besides the injury to Kirby Dach, is the "just not good enough" production from Suzuki and Caufield. I get that these are the only two guys opposing teams have to worry about but I was hoping for a jump from Suzuki from a 60-65 point guy to closer to an 80 or PPG guy. Right now Nick is tied for 60th in the league in scoring and 52nd among forwards. If your best forward can't even crack the top 50 in production, then you have a problem. Caufield I feel is a designated scorer and those guys are notoriously streaky, so I'm willing to live with the ups and downs. A lot of us said it when it happened, but the Dach injury has had a massive ripple effect on the lineup. He just helped slot everyone else in the right positions. We need him to be healthy next year. And then it's MSL and the coaching in general. I think HuGo and all of us were enamored with Marty's refreshing and thoughtful approach to the game. The problem is he's incredibly inexperienced as a coach at any level, much less the freaking NHL. It was borderline malpractice for Hughes to not foresee this and set him up with a real experienced assistant coach, someone who complements Marty, reinforces his philosophy, but helps boil it down to something that the players can understand and execute. Guys are growing and showing HuGo and MSL who really matters going forward and which guys can be packaged up to fill other needs. The trick is really knowing which ones. I'm not sure management knows yet or if they are even right. So far it's been all based on what was inherited, two top 5 picks and probably another one next June. But draft picks alone won't get it done. At some point tough choices need to made about who stays and who goes and that will involve risk. I remember when the Expos traded Delino DeShields for Pedro Martinez, the immediate reaction was it was a bad trade. DeShields was the top young player in the organization, an everyday infielder who finished 2nd in rookie of the year voting, and was a huge fan favorite. Pedro was "Ramon's little brother", weighed like 150 lbs soaking wet and seemed he would never be durable enough to withstand the grueling MLB season. We all know how that turned out. Of course my point isn't that there's a Pedro Martinez out there, but that sometimes you have to be ready to take a risk. Bergevin was never willing or able to do that and he didn't really have the tradeable assets. HuGo is (hopefully) accumulating a nice pool of young talent but at some point he's gonna have to make a deal. Most of this board also has Slafkovsky getting 50 points and was a key to team success. ************** I still have the newspaper article of Pedro's perfect game |
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 11, 2023 17:50:20 GMT -5
And then it's MSL and the coaching in general. I think HuGo and all of us were enamored with Marty's refreshing and thoughtful approach to the game. The problem is he's incredibly inexperienced as a coach at any level, much less the freaking NHL. It was borderline malpractice for Hughes to not foresee this and set him up with a real experienced assistant coach, someone who complements Marty, reinforces his philosophy, but helps boil it down to something that the players can understand and execute. This is a part of Gorton's plan that I never quite understood. Hughes, MSL, Burrows, Letowski, Robidas... all rookies in their roles at the NHL level. Those are key positions... Is Gorton planning on mentoring all of them? No Problem - Gorton mentors Hughes Problem - Who mentors MSL Problem - you can't have the last three guys... you can only have 1... Problem - You need an experienced defence coach and an experienced special teams coach... Marty can take care of the forwards. |
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Post by folatre on Dec 11, 2023 18:27:49 GMT -5
Boston, I agree with what you are saying. This is another tough year and a lot of the numbers would suggest the Habs are certainly bottom 5-7 bad. The goalies have exceeded expectations and Montreal has a couple forwards who are really good at Bettman Shinny (i.e. 3v3 and SO), but that is about it.
I think the Slafkovsky-Suzuki-Caufield line has been good since St. Louis put them together. This season is what it is so there is no reason not to keep them together to see what a large sample size can tell the staff and management. But there is just no secondary scoring now that Monahan and Gallagher cooled off and Newhook got hurt. It is crazy how the Habs are staying above the total dumpster level thanks to d-men scoring a lot. Montreal has almost 20 goals from d-men one-third of the way through the season.
Management has a lot of issues to deal with. The composition of the coaching staff is one of the big ones.
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Post by Skilly on Dec 11, 2023 19:48:42 GMT -5
I’d argue that we have lots of secondary scoring
Defense scoring consistently
Monahan with 8 goals, leading the team
Newhook with 7 goals. Yes he got injured but his goals still count
Pearson and Gallagher on pace for about 15ish
What we don’t have is PRIMARY scoring
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Post by folatre on Dec 11, 2023 20:17:25 GMT -5
For sure, Skilly, it depends on how one wants to define secondary scoring. But since the Habs do not have a d-man who would sniff anyone's list of the league's top 20 or 40 d-men, in the summer I would not be penciling in multiple Habs d-man to be among the club's top 10 goal scorers. So basically I agree with you and others that Montreal does not get first line production from anyone on the roster, but the guys getting middle six minutes are really struggling too.
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Post by seventeen on Dec 11, 2023 21:30:21 GMT -5
And then it's MSL and the coaching in general. I think HuGo and all of us were enamored with Marty's refreshing and thoughtful approach to the game. The problem is he's incredibly inexperienced as a coach at any level, much less the freaking NHL. It was borderline malpractice for Hughes to not foresee this and set him up with a real experienced assistant coach, someone who complements Marty, reinforces his philosophy, but helps boil it down to something that the players can understand and execute. This is a part of Gorton's plan that I never quite understood. Hughes, MSL, Burrows, Letowski, Robidas... all rookies in their roles at the NHL level. Those are key positions... Is Gorton planning on mentoring all of them? What we don't know is what kind of discussion went on between HuGo and MSL at the time of hiring. Was he given carte blanche to name his own assistants? Was there any discussion about having an experienced head coach? The risk with doing that is that no matter how one cuts it, the optics are that there's not enough trust in the head coach. And there shouldn't be, of course, with a guy who hasn't had to go up against the Scotty Bowman types on the bench, who can beat you with smart line matchups etc. I'm not sure what I would have done. Giving Marty lots of rope and hoping he learns on the job quickly is the strategy they've chosen. We can see some of the warts and hopefully they do too. And then there's always the French/English balance the Habs have to deal with. Burrows has been around long enough to do a better job than it seems he has. If Marty had a public difference of opinion with him, knowing Marty's patience level, whatever Burrows was planning had to be really dumb. But can you fire him? Timmins was let go, IMO, because if you're firing Bergie, Timmins has to walk the plank with him. But if you consider the drafting from 2016 on, Timmins had done a pretty damn good job. Skilly may disagree (because he often does  ) but here are the names; Sergachev, Pezzetta, Primeau, Poehling, Kotkaniemi, Ylonen, Romanov, Harris, Caufield, Struble, Norlinder, Harvey-Pinard, Guhle and Farrell. Still to be determined, but playing pro hockey are Mailloux, Kidney, Trudeau and Joshua Roy. That's in 6 years of drafting. Eighteen guys in 6 years or 3 per year. We don't know how many will end up in the NHL and beyond that, how many will have an impact, but that's a lot of guys, with most coming from traditionally later rounds. But going back to Marty's performance, he may have a different mandate than winning, despite what the official message is. We really need to see how the team is when they have a full roster. Yeah, I know, good luck with that. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Dec 12, 2023 10:31:46 GMT -5
Rookie GM and a rookie coach. They can learn on the job but it's a lot to ask. Gorton is there to mentor Hughes. Ideally, you hire a savvy assistant who is old enough to not be a threat to Marty. Someone like Jacques Martin (not him per se, but that kind of coach).
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Post by folatre on Dec 12, 2023 17:47:08 GMT -5
Yeah, there is a glaring need for a veteran coach who can teach guys how to trust each other within a five skater system. And the guy does not need to be a native French speaker, though I do not mind if he is.
Vigneault would probably be perceived as a threat to St. Louis. And for that matter, I am not sure a guy who is 62 with a very distinguished record (regular seasons and playoffs) wants to go through the travel grind as an Asst. Coach.
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 13, 2023 8:55:51 GMT -5
Yeah, there is a glaring need for a veteran coach who can teach guys how to trust each other within a five skater system. And the guy does not need to be a native French speaker, though I do not mind if he is. Vigneault would probably be perceived as a threat to St. Louis. And for that matter, I am not sure a guy who is 62 with a very distinguished record (regular seasons and playoffs) wants to go through the travel grind as an Asst. Coach. Then pay him like a head coach or like a consultant, in fact call him a consultant who travels and works with the coaching staff, he can also report to the GM... Molson has lots of money |
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Post by seventeen on Dec 13, 2023 14:19:05 GMT -5
Yeah, there is a glaring need for a veteran coach who can teach guys how to trust each other within a five skater system. And the guy does not need to be a native French speaker, though I do not mind if he is. Vigneault would probably be perceived as a threat to St. Louis. And for that matter, I am not sure a guy who is 62 with a very distinguished record (regular seasons and playoffs) wants to go through the travel grind as an Asst. Coach. Then pay him like a head coach or like a consultant, in fact call him a consultant who travels and works with the coaching staff, he can also report to the GM... Molson has lots of money Willie, Willie, Willie. Rich people are rich because they like to spend other people's money, not their own. To be fair to Geoff, he hasn't been cheap with HuGo's budget, like taking on useless contracts to get picks. |
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Post by habsask on Dec 13, 2023 17:24:33 GMT -5
I guess I am of a bit different in opinion. Unlike others here I am not expecting the team to be competitive until 2025/2026 so I am being more patient with the head coach. Following MB there is a massive amount to be done and course Dach's injury has not helped. In the meantime MSL is basically juggling to find out what works best with what he's got, a tough situation to provide structure in especially with older players who are getting paid a lot no matter how they perform.
So I think that it's a bit early to think of changing the head coach.
Just my 2 cents as usual.
Cheers
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 13, 2023 19:25:04 GMT -5
I guess I am of a bit different in opinion. Unlike others here I am not expecting the team to be competitive until 2025/2026 so I am being more patient with the head coach. Following MB there is a massive amount to be done and course Dach's injury has not helped. In the meantime MSL is basically juggling to find out what works best with what he's got, a tough situation to provide structure in especially with older players who are getting paid a lot no matter how they perform. So I think that it's a bit early to think of changing the head coach. Just my 2 cents as usual. Cheers I'm not interested in changing head coach, I'm interested in getting rid of the guys around him |
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Post by habsask on Dec 13, 2023 23:33:54 GMT -5
WD,
I stand corrected.
My apologies
Cheers
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 14, 2023 9:30:18 GMT -5
WD, I stand corrected. My apologies Cheers No worries mon ami... we have suffered with bad/unsuitable coaches for well over a decade and now we have a coach with a fresh outlook and he is surrounded by morons... someone in management or Marty better do something |
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Post by seventeen on Dec 14, 2023 15:11:38 GMT -5
WD, I stand corrected. My apologies Cheers I don't think most of us feel a coaching change is warranted and maybe Marty is playing 4 dimensional chess and we're way behind, but some of his decision seem odd. I agree he's experimenting, but one example is Ylonen, who was never experimented above the 3rd line and was a fixture on the 4th. His skill set is beyond that, and no experimenting was done with him. He's 24 and they better have a place for him. For a guy who is experimenting, he's treating his vets exceedingly well. Heineman and Ylonen are both worthy of some time, but there's no way MSL is sitting Anderson or Gallagher and even Armia is getting good ice time. The angst on the board comes from not seeing whatever Marty is doing and not being privy to information that would clear it up. Naturally, he can't share that, but I wish things made more sense. In any case, I agree with you that you can only judge him when he has better, more experienced, healthy material which is 3 years from now. Anderson is a real thorn in my butt. I know they want to get him going (I have grown to hate that phrase), so keep playing him till he drops. No. Give him a day off. This past week, I'm playing 4 Pictures, One word...an internet game. One puzzle had me bamboozled. I put it away. Next morning, I look at the quiz and get it in 3 seconds. that's happened to me often. Just a short break can help a guy a lot more than poring over a problem for hours and days. Not happening with Anderson and he's only gotten worse. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 14, 2023 17:27:56 GMT -5
WD, I stand corrected. My apologies Cheers I don't think most of us feel a coaching change is warranted and maybe Marty is playing 4 dimensional chess and we're way behind, but some of his decision seem odd. I agree he's experimenting, but one example is Ylonen, who was never experimented above the 3rd line and was a fixture on the 4th. His skill set is beyond that, and no experimenting was done with him. He's 24 and they better have a place for him. For a guy who is experimenting, he's treating his vets exceedingly well. Heineman and Ylonen are both worthy of some time, but there's no way MSL is sitting Anderson or Gallagher and even Armia is getting good ice time. The angst on the board comes from not seeing whatever Marty is doing and not being privy to information that would clear it up. Naturally, he can't share that, but I wish things made more sense. In any case, I agree with you that you can only judge him when he has better, more experienced, healthy material which is 3 years from now. Anderson is a real thorn in my butt. I know they want to get him going (I have grown to hate that phrase), so keep playing him till he drops. No. Give him a day off. This past week, I'm playing 4 Pictures, One word...an internet game. One puzzle had me bamboozled. I put it away. Next morning, I look at the quiz and get it in 3 seconds. that's happened to me often. Just a short break can help a guy a lot more than poring over a problem for hours and days. Not happening with Anderson and he's only gotten worse. He's gotten worse because stress is a killer, he's got to be so stressed he's not producing, he comes to work knowing he's not contributing anything... he's afraid to make a mistake, he wants to do to much... but instead Marty need to give him a game or 2 off and let him watch the game from a different vantage point and then come back and keep it simple... skate, hit, pass, shoot... They play the Wild and the Jets on the road next week, let him sit and watch those games... they play the Hawks next so it would be a good opportunity to try to get his MOJO back... |
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Post by habsask on Dec 14, 2023 18:03:18 GMT -5
My guess is that the pressure is on to "showcase" these players before the trade deadline in the hope that some team will bite. The problem is that the bait isn't too enticing.
So says my crystal ball. I consult it when nothing else makes sense.
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 14, 2023 18:08:14 GMT -5
My guess is that the pressure is on to "showcase" these players before the trade deadline in the hope that some team will bite. The problem is that the bait isn't too enticing. So says my crystal ball. I consult it when nothing else makes sense. Check the Magic 8-ball and see what it says |
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Post by seventeen on Dec 14, 2023 23:03:57 GMT -5
My guess is that the pressure is on to "showcase" these players before the trade deadline in the hope that some team will bite. The problem is that the bait isn't too enticing. So says my crystal ball. I consult it when nothing else makes sense. That’s exactly what’s going on so some of the kids are in limbo until the TDL. But a short break for josh could reset his programming. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 15, 2023 17:20:46 GMT -5
My guess is that the pressure is on to "showcase" these players before the trade deadline in the hope that some team will bite. The problem is that the bait isn't too enticing. So says my crystal ball. I consult it when nothing else makes sense. That’s exactly what’s going on so some of the kids are in limbo until the TDL. But a short break for josh could reset his programming. The programming in his Vic 20 |
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) but here are the names;
