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Post by HABSLAND on Oct 5, 2003 22:59:57 GMT -5
Just read that Trashers forward Dan Snyder has passed away, what a blow that is, and I wonder how Heatley will cope with this, just devastating to hear this, especially at his age!!
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Post by madhabfan on Oct 5, 2003 23:07:44 GMT -5
Devistating indeed
My condolences to his family.
This is a sad day.
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Post by Spanky85 on Oct 5, 2003 23:16:49 GMT -5
This is a truly sad day for hockey. Two young, up and coming players have ended their career today. Snyder from what I understand went through a lot of crap to get to the NHL for it then to be taken away from him so quickly.
The other career is Heatly's. This is only my assumption but I strongly doubt that he will ever be able to recover from the emotional damage that this has done to him and the legal issues are unknow. From what I know of the legal system, he could very well be charged with some degree of Manslaughter which could end him up in jail for a very long time.
Dan Snyder 1978 - 2003
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Oct 5, 2003 23:29:22 GMT -5
This truly is a sad day for everyone.
I only hope that some kid with an NHL contract in the glove box of his corvette, a shiny visa card in his pocket and a beautiful girl on his arm; takes a moment to reflect upon just how sad this episode has been for all involved.
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Post by habernac on Oct 5, 2003 23:31:59 GMT -5
Terrible news....  Drive safely out there, everyone. |
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Post by Forum Ghost on Oct 6, 2003 0:19:04 GMT -5
Not only has this news rocked the Atlanta Thrashers and especially Dany Heatley, but it is news that will shake the NHL and the entire world of professional sports. What horrible, horrible news to recieve only days before the first drop of the puck. What can I say? I'm absolutely stunned... |
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Post by MadRookie on Oct 6, 2003 0:36:26 GMT -5
My deepest condolences to Dan Snyder's family as well as to Danny Heatley and his family.
Very sad and tragic news.
Hopefully this will receive a lot of publicity and act as a deterrent to reckless driving for at least a few youngsters.
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 6, 2003 7:38:21 GMT -5
RIP Dan.
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Post by cousin nark on Oct 6, 2003 7:44:42 GMT -5
As empty as words can be at a time like this, it's still important for us to show our support to all that are impacted by this tragedy. I extend my greatest of sympathies to family and friends of Dan Snyder. God Bless.
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Post by HFTO on Oct 6, 2003 12:27:17 GMT -5
This truly is a horrific story,my deepest sympathies go out to the Snyder family as well.
It is a grave and hard lesson to learn for young Mr. Heatly and too any drivers of any age.As fans of hockey
you think of how devastating this is to Dan Heatly's life,but unfortunately is pales in comparison to what happened to young Mr. Snyder who has paid the ultimate price.
This a sad day for hockey and for the families involved.
HFTO
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Oct 6, 2003 12:28:57 GMT -5
This whole scenario is terrible, guys. The Atlanta police are expecting the charges to be upgraded to vehicular homicide in the first degree. Here's the link; www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=56305I read earlier that Heatley also has a torn MCL and ACL that would prevent him from playing pretty much the rest of the season. However, life has changed for this young man. Youth is responsible for much. It's hard to say if this would've happened had these guys been much older, but older people make mistakes too. I say that because, these guys are rich in comparrison to their age peer group at least. It's too dangerous a combination I feel. How many other types of instances involving fine materials, fame and wealth have we not heard of? Terrible news. Could it have been prevented? Depends on you point of view doesn't it? RIP young Snyder. later. |
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Post by clear observer on Oct 6, 2003 13:16:12 GMT -5
Heart-wrenching...
Thoughts and prayers out to all concerned.
Spiro
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2003 15:21:37 GMT -5
Sad news indeed. I read it while I was on break at work. Hopefully this will teach all hotshot drivers to buckle up and drive the speed limit, but I doubt it. Even if this tragedy teaches one person to be more safe on the roads, then at least there will be one less accident.
Regardless, this is a sad day indeed. One youngster loses his life, while another one's will go to waste in a prison cell for at least three years.
That itself is a long time.
May Dan Snyder rest in peace.
(P.S. There seems to be a curse on hockey players/coaches lately...seems to lead to death. That's a scary thing indeed.)
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Oct 6, 2003 22:00:46 GMT -5
They said they were going to do it, guys. The Atlanta police have upgraded the charges on Dan Heatley.
You know something? Tonight I was talking with a social worker who is in my night school courses and deals with some pretty bad dudes (many are younger people) during the day. He pointed out that throwing Heatley in the can is not the way to go. Yes, he must own up to and pay for his mistakes, but the problem isn't so much that Heatley is a bad dude; he's too just bloody young.
Then I mentioned to him about youth combined with money, fame, hero-worship and of course, a Ferrari. That generated even more dialogue.
Guys, I think there's much, much more to this issue than Heatley driving fast and killing his buddy. Yes, I agree insomuch as, accountability and retribution are both important; and if the Atlanta police stick to their charges that will happen. However, can you imagine if just one of us were lucky enough to have made it to the NHL at that age and with that much talent?
It's hard to say, but any one of us could have been a Dan Heatley. And the question looms, how many Heatleys have been created by the conditions we've made for them?
Coming full circle on you, guys. We ended our discussion by agreeing that it would have been entirely different had it been our son(s) who had died.
Cheers.
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Post by MadRookie on Oct 6, 2003 23:01:53 GMT -5
They said they were going to do it, guys. The Atlanta police have upgraded the charges on Dan Heatley. You know something? Tonight I was talking with a social worker who is in my night school courses and deals with some pretty bad dudes (many are younger people) during the day. He pointed out that throwing Heatley in the can is not the way to go. Yes, he must own up to and pay for his mistakes, but the problem isn't so much that Heatley is a bad dude; he's too just bloody young. Then I mentioned to him about youth combined with money, fame, hero-worship and of course, a Ferrari. That generated even more dialogue. Guys, I think there's much, much more to this issue than Heatley driving fast and killing his buddy. Yes, I agree insomuch as, accountability and retribution are both important; and if the Atlanta police stick to their charges that will happen. However, can you imagine if just one of us were lucky enough to have made it to the NHL at that age and with that much talent? It's hard to say, but any one of us could have been a Dan Heatley. And the question looms, how many Heatleys have been created by the conditions we've made for them? Coming full circle on you, guys. We ended our discussion by agreeing that it would have been entirely different had it been our son(s) who had died. Cheers. If I had had that kind of money, and talent, and adulation from fans, and free time, I think I too would have been a prime candidate for this or some other type of disaster. Any teenager or young adult who has that much going for them must feel invincible, supra-human. I agree with you that Heatley should be held accountable for what transipred, and that the focus should not be punitive. This is clearly a case of negligence, of the same type that many young people (and several older ones too)have been guilty of. How many of us have driven at excessive speeds, or recklessly? Thankfully, the results have been different for most, but the culpability is the same. Should Heatley be more accountable because his ill-fated joy-ride was in a ferrari? Maybe. I don't see how this all reflects upon all of us though. Because our passion for sports creates young, overpaid athletes? It can be as easily argued that our obsession with using automobiles as transportation, is responsible for this tragedy. I don't think this reflects badly our society as a whole. Maybe we can do more to educate young people about the dangers of reckless driving and increase police patrols at night, but what more? Maybe parents can encourage their children to behave more responsibly, but what else? I just don't see how the responsibility for this tragedy extends far beyond Heatley himself. Also, what did you mean when you said this would have been different, had it been your own sons? |
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 7, 2003 8:50:52 GMT -5
Only Heatley knows what really happened. Snyder may have jumped in the car and said, "Let's see what this baby'll do....come on...open it up." If Snyder, however, was telling Heatley to slow down, then that's a different story. If Heatley had been drinking...that's a REAL different story.
The Toronto Star reported that after the event they were attending, Kovalchuk drove away in his new orange Lambourghini, followed by Heatley and Snyder in the Ferrari. A caller to MOJO the other day speculated that perhaps they were racing. Who knows?
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Oct 7, 2003 16:56:26 GMT -5
Also, what did you mean when you said this would have been different, had it been your own sons? Honestly, if it had been any family member, we would've reacted quite differently I dare say. It certainly wouldn't have been a matter of whether or not Heatley was young, rich and/or famous. Had it been any of our family members, I think we would demand justice be served; darn the logic, lock 'em up! But, having said that I agree with you in that if the environment were the same for any of us, we could have easily been in Heatley's shoes. Youth, money, fame can equal disaster. I'm not saying it always does, but that combination creates the environment for this to happen. Cheers. |
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Post by ethan on Oct 7, 2003 17:46:08 GMT -5
But, having said that I agree with you in that if the environment were the same for any of us, we could have easily been in Heatley's shoes. Youth, money, fame can equal disaster. I'm not saying it always does, but that combination creates the environment for this to happen. Cheers. I have to disagree with this point.... Heatley was going roughly 130km in a 70km zone... i have seen, been in and myself driven a car travelling 50km over the speed limit. His fame and money have absolutely nothing to do with the accident, and it bothers me that people are trying to tie it to that. If anything, I bet that the % of proffesional athletes under 30 that have been involved in car accidents leading to death or serious injury is far less than the average for north america... think about it, when is the last time this has happened Bobby hurley 5 or 6 years ago, and before that Yet daily, young drivers are killed or maimed because they drive too fast.... and the VAST majority of them do not drive ferraris. Speed kills, and people speed regardless of their wealth or social class. Insurance companies claim that youth plays a big role, and the numbers are hard to disagree with, but that's it. I don't think that the NHL or any other professional league should be responsible to teach their employees about proper driving skills. Parents, local and federal governments should bear that responsability, period. As sad as this tragedy is, there are far worse social problems that deserve way more attention than this unfortunate event has received. Danny heatley was not put into an environment that put him at risk, he put himself at risk, as do many young people, and now he should (but won't because he's rich and famous) face the same penalty that an average young person would face for being so careless with his and his friends life. |
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Post by MC Habber on Oct 8, 2003 13:03:13 GMT -5
Heatley was going roughly 130km in a 70km zone... i have seen, been in and myself driven a car travelling 50km over the speed limit. I've read that the speed limit was actually 35mph which is about 56kph, and since it was a narrow residential street the limit in Canada would probably have been 50kph, so Heatley was going about 80 km over the limit, or 2.6 times as fast as he should have gone in ideal driving conditions[/i]. Since stopping-distance is proportional to the square of speed, that means that if he tried to brake, he would've travelled 6.8 times as far before coming to rest as someone travelling at the speed limit. |
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Post by ethan on Oct 8, 2003 13:48:50 GMT -5
sorry, your right, he was going closer to 150km/h in a 60km/h, 90 klicks over the speed limit... While I haven't gone that fast very often, I still maintain the point that his wealth, status, or the fact that he's an athlete don't have as much to do with the accident than the simple fact that he's a young guy, and young guys tend to drive too fast. While a ferrari may accelerat a whole lot faster than an avergage car, I've been in some pretty run down jalopies that can get up to 130... Plus, a performance car like that will also have a much better braking system than your average sedan... Anyways, point is, he drove too fast, lots of young people do, and while I admire his athletic ability, and want to see him have a long and illustiour career, I hope that his status and wealth won't prevent him from facing the full extend of the conseqences for his incredibly stupid and unfortunate desicion to drive so carelessly.... though he probably won't.
p.s the circumstances around why he was driving so fast, and wether or not Snyder was egging him on is COMPLETLY irrelevant, when you get behind the wheel, you are responsible, and no one else!!!
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Post by MC Habber on Oct 8, 2003 17:43:36 GMT -5
p.s the circumstances around why he was driving so fast, and wether or not Snyder was egging him on is COMPLETLY irrelevant, when you get behind the wheel, you are responsible, and no one else!!! We may never know what was going on in the car but I think it likely that Snyder was not complaining that Heatley was driving too fast. If that's the case then I really feel that Snyder bears some responsibilty for what happened to him - if you are in a car going at 2.6 times the speed limit and the conditions are not ideal on top of that (which I infer from the charge against Heatley of 'driving too fast for conitions') then you are just asking to be seriously injured, regardless of whether you are the one driving, and so you have a responsibility, at the very least to yourself, to tell the driver to slowdown. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Oct 8, 2003 18:03:20 GMT -5
You'll forgive me, ethan, if my response seems a tad adamant. However, if you find that some of my responses are in kind, this is the way your post read to me. First, thanks for another perspective on this topic. I have to disagree with this point.... Heatley was going roughly 130km in a 70km zone... i have seen, been in and myself driven a car travelling 50km over the speed limit. Really? So have I, ethan. I lived in Germany for five years and there was a "recommended" speed limit on the autobahns there. But, I stress, "recommended." I routinely drove 160km/hr on the autobahn and I was frequently passed. However, I understand that this was a narrow road. All the more reason not to have been speeding. He was probably doing what most young people do on a relatively not too busy side road. I never said that this had to do with this accident specifically. I did say, however, that fame, money, stardom, yadda, yadda, yadda, creates the right environment for incidents like this to occur. If I may, if these factors really are non factors, why did the NBA feel an obligation to establish a counselling forum for young players who make lots of cash? From what I understand also, there are several NHL teams who do this as well (at least to according to the Ottawa Sun). Good point. Young millionaires don't necessarily drive ferraris. However, BMWs, Mercedes et al are well within their budgets. They do, yes, however, please remember that I was talking about creating an environment that invites this sort of thing. Not sure where you're going with this one, buds. No one said that the league should be responsible for that. The last I heard, proper driving skills are taught through various qualified driving schools, etc. Parents could be excellen tutors, yes, and responsible for developing good driving skills; agreed. However, most hockey players, with talent and potential, are often separated from their parents and family as early as 15 or 16 years of age. Once they are lucky enough to be drafted by an CHL or later, NHL team, that distance widens. The onus for responsible behaviour envitably falls on them. That's quite a responsibility in itself for young people. Local and federal government responsibilities end with the dictation of policies. It's up to the law enforcement agencies to implement them and often up the young people, who are, again, sometimes on their own, to learn and follow them out. Any time a professional athlete is involved, the incident usually receives more attention in the news. Dan Heately is not only a professional athlete, but a budding superstar (as Marc said, a star the league needs). When they make a mistake it's normally magnified in the public's eyes because of the star status the player has. Unfortunate, but true, not only in hockey players, but celebrities as well. I completely understand what you're saying, ethan. And I somewhat agree. However, again, all I was saying is that a "fame and money" type of environment is the right setting for something to go wrong. I stand by that belief. And, I also understand that Heatley must be accountable. However, it's debateable whether or not prison is the right thing. Heatley isn't necessarily a bad guy. He made a mistake; and as you point out many young people do. I have to agree with my buddy, a social worker, that a prision environment may do a guy like Heatley worse than good. Thanks for the chat, ethan. Cheers. |
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Post by ethan on Oct 8, 2003 18:57:13 GMT -5
Let me just echo your sentiments... definitely enjoy and appreciate different perspectives! I never said that this had to do with this accident specifically. I did say, however, that fame, money, stardom, yadda, yadda, yadda, creates the right environment for incidents like this to occur. If I may, if these factors really are non factors, why did the NBA feel an obligation to establish a counselling forum for young players who make lots of cash? From what I understand also, there are several NHL teams who do this as well (at least to according to the Ottawa Sun). And, I also understand that Heatley must be accountable. However, it's debateable whether or not prison is the right thing. Heatley isn't necessarily a bad guy. He made a mistake; and as you point out many young people do. I have to agree with my buddy, a social worker, that a prision environment may do a guy like Heatley worse than good. Thanks for the chat, ethan. Cheers. just wanted to comment on these two points... firstly, I feel that the speed/youth problem is one that is common in every "environment" in our society, I don't really see how the professional sports world intensifies that problem.... The fact that the NBA or any other league initiates these types of programs has to do with one thing...$$$$ Despite the extra publicity ( I know, any publicity is good publicity...), the leagues understand that it is in their best interest to "shield", "educate", "guide" their athletes more so than most businesses since guys like Danny Heatley are arguably irreplaceable (at least more so than the average lawyer/accountant/police man etc, etc... note, I don't mean to insult or denigrate any of these professions, but there is a reason that the average NHL salary is 1.2 million $), and they are much easier to market and sell to sponsors and fans if they are squeaky clean, so it's in their financial interest to protect them. on top of that, initiating programs like that shows the public that they "care" about their athletes and are proactive in making sure that they are upstanding citizens (again, this seems to me as a dollars and cents issue, not a ethical or moral one). As for the jail time issue... i couldn't agree with you more that jail will not benefit Danny Heatley. The U.S penal system is one of the worst in the world in terms of reforming inmates, and by many accounts has almost turned primarily into a money maker instead of system for reform and the betterment of society. Also, from all accounts (and you hear a lot about him here in calgary) he was a very upstanding, and moral individual with strong family values. Do I think he should waste even a few months of his life in jail, or that he is a "bad" person deserving punishment... NO However, that being said, if a 22 year old lower class black kid with a clean record was in the same situation (of course, his car would not have been a ferrari, maybe just a tercel or something), and did not have access to high priced lawyers, it''s safe to say that he would face a much stronger punishement than Heatley will, and that doesn't sit well with me. In the end, Danny's mistake was a very costly one, and he deserves to face the same consenquences that any other kid his age would but won't because of his fame and fortune... What those consequences are, and wether or not in the big picture they are productive for society and for him as an individual is irrelevant if we want to call ourselves a "Just" society (in the sense that justice is blind... again not trying to say that the current system is indeed just)... that was my point on that one. Thanks. P.S had I been around to enjoy the 70's habs, and was now stuck watching the md-90's 2000+ habs, i would be disgruntled too!!! ;D Thanks. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Oct 8, 2003 20:17:48 GMT -5
Pas de sweat, ethan. I knew where you were coming from right from the start. I can respect that. And of course, the 70's were a flash. In addition to muscle cars  (can't believe I said that) the hair was longer, the bell-bottoms were in, the chicks were hot, the pot was ... er ... did I say the chicks were hot. And, to me, they were my golden years of hockey. Cheers. |
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Post by MC Habber on Oct 8, 2003 22:33:48 GMT -5
The U.S penal system is one of the worst in the world in terms of reforming inmates, and by many accounts has almost turned primarily into a money maker instead of system for reform and the betterment of society. Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious here, but how exactly do prisons make money?  |
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Post by ethan on Oct 8, 2003 23:18:39 GMT -5
Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious here, but how exactly do prisons make money? Well, basically the state govt privatizes a prison, allowing some company to move in and operate it austensibly to save tax payers some dough... The private company comes in and runs it on a per inmate budget set by the state (which is a little less than what it operated on when state run... thus the tax payer savings). Thing is that, as with all privitization, the most imortant factor becomes profit, not adequate care, or social concern, and this goal is defended/explained under the guise of being "more effecient"... the obvious problem is that the profit, or efficiency comes at the expense of staff, programs and general facility improvements/upkeep, which means that inmates have an even smaller chance at receiving the kind of help they need to rehabilitate properly (a major problem in itself)... The only way a private company can make a profit is by running the prison at a lower cost than the budget/inmate they get from the govt (and their confidence in being able to do this is what attracts them in the first place since entrepreneurs/private companies never go into business to loose money) to top it off, once the private company has managed to lower their cost per inmate (which does require some manouevring and lobying since they do have to maintain the standards set by the state), thus turn a profit. How do you think they improve on that bottom line? The obvious answer.. MORE INMATES... How do you get more inmates? Make sure people come back... How do you make sure they come back? Don't rehabilitate them... It's a vicious, profit driven circle that, in the end, cost society a whole lot more in terms of rising incarceration rates, higher 2nd and 3rd time offenders, and the growing penal budget to deal with those rising numbers... not too mention the costs on the victims. And no, this isn't paranoid anti-coporate hogwash (wow, I can't believe I used that word...) I've read about this in various articles by social watch groups and I caught part of a documentary on CBC that discussed some of these same issues. If I can track down an article or two that might offer a more detailed explanation with concrete proof, I'll add it to this post. ciao |
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Post by Andrew on Oct 9, 2003 12:22:30 GMT -5
RIP Dan. Condolonces to your friends and family.
As for Heatley, the thought of him serving jail time is ridiculous. He's not a criminal. All jail will do is ruin his career, and probably turn him into a criminal. I highly doubt that Snyder would want to see him in jail.
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 9, 2003 14:59:17 GMT -5
RIP Dan. Condolonces to your friends and family. As for Heatley, the thought of him serving jail time is ridiculous. He's not a criminal. All jail will do is ruin his career, and probably turn him into a criminal. I highly doubt that Snyder would want to see him in jail. Food for thought....have a look at Mary Ormsby's Toronto Star column of a couple days ago. www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1065478211792&call_pageid=968332188492A lot of it strikes home with me...the "punk" label is unwarranted, but everything else speaks to me. I have a 20-year old son and I know what I'd be thinking of Heatley right now if my son had been the passenger. |
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Post by MC Habber on Oct 9, 2003 15:14:28 GMT -5
Well, basically the state govt privatizes a prison, allowing some company to move in and operate it austensibly to save tax payers some dough... ciao So what you're saying is that the prison is profitable for the company that runs it wtih those profits coming from the government, and the government saves money by reducing the budget of the prison? If I understand you correctly, then more inmates means more profit for the private company but also means more expense for the government (so it's still in the government's best interest to rehabilitate people). |
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Post by MC Habber on Oct 9, 2003 15:25:28 GMT -5
No offence, but what if your son had been the driver? The way I see it, Heatley made a stupid mistake and, tragically, it cost Dan Snyder his life. But who among us hasn't made a stupid mistake and how many drivers have never sped? Sometimes people are just lucky that their mistakes don't have serious consequences, sometimes they aren't. Whatever happens to Heatley in court and whether he ever plays again, the bottom-line is that this was his fault and he has to live with it for the rest of his life. I feel sorry for him. |
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(can't believe I said that) the hair was longer, the bell-bottoms were in, the chicks were hot, the pot was ... er ... did I say the chicks were hot. And, to me, they were my golden years of hockey.
