Interesting CBA stuff

[BadCompany]

I think the contraction issue sometimes (okay, always) gets confused with the “talent level” issue. In my opinion, they are two separate things. Personally, I think if you took an AHL team, renamed it the Toronto Maple Leafs, you would still sell out the ACC. Some would argue this already happened, during the 80’s. Old time Montreal fans would tell you this is what is currently happening with the present day Canadiens. Most fans probably couldn’t tell the difference, and with the coaching and the “systems” today, there probably wouldn’t be all that much of a difference.

The real issue though, is whether or not those cities are hockey cities. Never mind population base, or TV potential. Do people in those cities watch, enjoy, and follow hockey? The NHL expanded into places like Atlanta, like Tampa, like Miami and Nashville, because they thought the “potential” was there for people to watch hockey, to become hockey fans. In many places, that hasn’t happened, and in many cases, I don’t believe its ever going to happen. You may have 5 million people who could “potentially” watch your games on TV, but if only 50,000 really do, are you that much further ahead? By strict definition, the Montreal Expos should be a baseball town. Its population size is equivalent to many “Major” league teams. By strict definition as well, the Green Bay Packers should not have an NFL team. Green Bay isn’t big enough, it doesn’t have the potential TV market. Yet, we know what the reality is.

The contraction issue shouldn’t be whether or not there is enough talent to go around. It should be whether or not certain cities are viable as hockey towns. Will the people of Atlanta follow hockey with the same passion and fervor that the people of Quebec City did? Will you ever be able to “grow” that market? Anaheim has been in the league for 10 years now, and has never had good attendance, despite having elite stars, and making a run at the Stanley Cup Finals. Their TV numbers are terrible (non-existent) and with the NHL losing its national TV deal, that number doesn’t figure to change anytime soon. At what point do you cut your losses? At what point do you say “its not working here, it won’t work here for at least another 5-10 years, and there is the chance it may never work here?”

When you reach that point, THAT’S when you contract.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

There's plenty of evidence available right now to point out the sink-hole franchises.

Fewer teams means that the better players from the extinct teams will be able to push out lesser lights on the remaining teams, thus increasing the overall talent level. Ditto coaches. I can't see the reverse being true.

Inertia being the greatest force and all that, it comes down to the will to act. Unfortunately positive action is too often undertaken only when the vortex starts sucking one down and a mad "heroic" panic state galvanizes people into frenzied activity in order to save their skins. It's the reason history books (and bureaucracies) are much bigger than they need to be.

There doesn't seem to be enough anger or fear surrounding the issue for the principals yet. The eleventh hour is not upon us.

[cousin nark]

Wow, the last 6 posts on page 2 were a bit confusing.

The NHL needs to make their regular season games mean something. They have to give fans a reason to go to games, to expect a little passion and excitement.

The games started to mean a lot more when the league expanded to 30 teams with 15 in each conference with 8 out of 15 making the playoffs. Before that the regular season meant very little. The prestige of the Presidents Cup was about the only thing that meant anything.

Consider this, in 85-86 Toronto made the playoffs with 57 points, Winnipeg and Vancouver with 59. Then in 87-88 Toronto had 52 points and made the playoffs. That is when the regular season games don't mean much.

[Montrealer]

cousin said:

Then in 87-88 Toronto had 52 points and made the playoffs. That is when the regular season games don't mean much.

I remember that year well. Minnesota was in 5th place in the Norris with 51 points, IIRC. Boy, that was a race to the finish, wasn't it?

I wonder how those two teams would do in today's NHL. 30 points? If they were lucky?

[Doc Holliday]

To throw my 2 cents, I'd actually contract in North America but expand to the Europe because IMO, a key issue lies with identity right now.

#1: Leaving political rectitude aside for a second, teams no longer represent it's fan base for the most part. I am not talking about totally closing ourselves to European players but the local twist adds a lot to the interest. If there was a European division where elite Europeans players could play than the NHL could offer strong incentives for players and teams to pick in their own backyard and that could help generate some interest in an Olympic/patriot kinda way. Canadian teams could have a quota of Canadian players, US teams a quota of US players and so on…

Also…<br>
#2: Strong incentives should be present for both players and teams to promote long term relationship between them rather than focusing on "freeing" players as quickly as possible or to treat veterans warriors like semi-pariahs going from team to team as soon as they hit 35-36…<br>
When you think about how a handfull of fans like us can come with dozen of ideas to help the show or the league, it's obvious that the main issue lies in the league's will NOT to change their established ways...

[blaise]

BadCompany said:

The real issue though, is whether or not those cities are hockey cities. Never mind population base, or TV potential. Do people in those cities watch, enjoy, and follow hockey? The NHL expanded into places like Atlanta, like Tampa, like Miami and Nashville, because they thought the “potential” was there for people to watch hockey, to become hockey fans. In many places, that hasn’t happened, and in many cases, I don’t believe its ever going to happen. You may have 5 million people who could “potentially” watch your games on TV, but if only 50,000 really do, are you that much further ahead? By strict definition, the Montreal Expos should be a baseball town. Its population size is equivalent to many “Major” league teams. By strict definition as well, the Green Bay Packers should not have an NFL team. Green Bay isn’t big enough, it doesn’t have the potential TV market. Yet, we know what the reality is.

The contraction issue shouldn’t be whether or not there is enough talent to go around. It should be whether or not certain cities are viable as hockey towns. Will the people of Atlanta follow hockey with the same passion and fervor that the people of Quebec City did? Will you ever be able to “grow” that market? Anaheim has been in the league for 10 years now, and has never had good attendance, despite having elite stars, and making a run at the Stanley Cup Finals. Their TV numbers are terrible (non-existent) and with the NHL losing its national TV deal, that number doesn’t figure to change anytime soon. At what point do you cut your losses? At what point do you say “its not working here, it won’t work here for at least another 5-10 years, and there is the chance it may never work here?”

The NFL analogy isn't apt because all teams share the revenue from immense TV contracts that make the NHL arrangements look like pocket money. Moreover, the Green Bay Packers play a number of their games in Milwaukee.

In response to some of the other posters: As for changing the dimensions of the hockey rink, I wouldn't be happy with changing the size of the goal. You'd still get the stifling defensive play and a reduced number of scoring chances. I'd go along with wider lines and perhaps moving the goals back to their original positions. I'd also consider doing something about goalies who wander far out of their nets along the end boards. At some point they should be subject to bodychecking (I would exempt their skating up ice to prevent a breakaway shot). From what I've seen of international play, I would be highly in favor of widening the rink. That would put much more emphasis on skating and help offset the neutral zone trap. Of course seats would have to be removed but that could be compensated for by raising the prices of seats just off the ice. I presume that the people who sit in the first few rows right now could afford it.

[BadCompany]

Blaise said:

The NFL analogy isn't apt because all teams share the revenue from immense TV contracts that make the NHL arrangements look like pocket money. Moreover, the Green Bay Packers play a number of their games in Milwaukee.

The Packers haven't played in Milwaukee since 1995. And the point still remains - in the absence of that huge TV deal, NHL teams must rely on their local populations to support their teams. With no local TV deals, and declining attendance, there is little to no hope for a turnaround. At some point, you just have to say "it ain't going to work here, no matter how many people live in this city."

[cousin nark]

Doc_Holliday said:

#2: Strong incentives should be present for both players and teams to promote long term relationship between them rather than focusing on "freeing" players as quickly as possible or to treat veterans warriors like semi-pariahs going from team to team as soon as they hit 35-36…

Long term relationship...i like that.

It would be promoting team loyalty of both the fan and player. As it is now, there seems to be no respect or appreciation for what an older player has given to or done for the team. They are treated as throwaway items.
Can you imagine treating all the great Habs players of the 50's 60's and 70's that way as they neared the end of their careers? Aging is a natural progression and the declining of skill is a given, but i want to be able to see my favorite players retire with dignity, and not be tossed aside.

[blaise]

Location is a key factor. The Devils play before disappointingly small crowds despite having a good team year after year. It's not a lack of interest IMO. The Continental Airlines Arena is very difficult to reach. No public transportation , unlike Madison Square Garden, which is actually more accessible to fans coming in from New Jersey (not to mention the subways that link MSG to most of New York City and Long Island Railroad, which carries another large contingent of Ranger fans in). If the Devils played in Newark, which is easier to reach not only from New Jersey but also from New York, they'd have larger attendances.

[JacquesInFL]

Good thread.

Well, I have survived another weekend of hockey purgatory in Bettman's vision of progress. Let me say to you: it isn't beautiful.

Brief flashback, Friday we were sitting in the grossly overpriced lower bowl in Office Depot centre. It is alarmingly empty. There was tragic-comic character sitting a few seats from us, alone and wearing his Panthers sweater…he leans over and laments how Bettman came to a game here this week and the organisation gave each season ticket holder four freebies but only 15,000 attend. My friend Dom and I tell him what it was like to sit in the Forum and he seems delighted by the stories. But the bottom line is hockey will not survive in some of these cities. I mean, almost every man, woman and child declines free Panther tickets twice per month...

[Strummerman]

Let me respond to all this nonsense- even though I have made my points in another forum non-hab related. Here is the claim of this site and my rebuttal:

Quote:
The NHL is currently in a state of economic disaster. On September 15, 2004, the collective bargaining agreement (CBA) between the NHL and NHLPA will expire. If the current economic catastrophe is not fixed, the NHL will continue towards a state of disaster. In addition, any work stoppage will undoubtedly adversely affect fan support, from which parts of the NHL may never recover.

Let us be clear there will be no work stoppage- there will be a lock-out by owners. We have an economic disaster? How many teams have gone bankrupt???Which owners want to sell their teams??? This is nonsense promoted by supporters of the owners or may I add journalists in the pockets of the owners, or simply gullible people. Two years ago every free agent was signed at the going rate. All of a sudden in one year we have an economic disaster and no one can be signed. BS i say. Let the market dictate the salaries. Not BS.


Quote:
Fans are the controlling force behind the NHL. Without fans, the NHL cannot function. As a fan, please sign to indicate that you will not tolerate the economic environment created by the current collective bargaining agreement. In addition, please signify that you will not tolerate any form of work stoppage next season.

I will not tolerate not being entertained as a fan. Therefore the pennypinching owners I cannot tolerate. Do you think the Leaf fans are up in arms because the Leafs sign free agents. In fact they protested when the Leafs did not sign anyone. Do you think the Wing fans are complaining about Derian Hatcher or Dominic Hasek. Methinks not. What we should protest is the fact Gillett is getting cheap and refusing to sign players that can make this team a Cup contender.

Quote:
NHL players have already visited this site. Also, this petition will be sent to the NHL and NHLPA when the season ends. Since you are the source of their income, they should be very interested to hear your opinion.

This sounds like a telemarketer. Yes NHL players have visited this site and... have they signed the petition???


Alan Eagleson must be on cloud nine when he reads this crap.

[Bob]

Strummerman said:

Let me respond to all this nonsense-

Let us be clear there will be no work stoppage- there will be a lock-out by owners. We have an economic disaster? How many teams have gone bankrupt???Which owners want to sell their teams??? This is nonsense promoted by supporters of the owners or may I add journalists in the pockets of the owners, or simply gullible people.

I will not tolerate not being entertained as a fan. Therefore the pennypinching owners I cannot tolerate. What we should protest is the fact Gillett is getting cheap and refusing to sign players that can make this team a Cup contender.

You obviously live in a different reality than I do.

There are a number of teams that a facing a serious financial crisis. The only thing that prevents them from folding is that the owner digs deeper into his own pocket or new owners with even deeper pockets are found (Ottawa, Buffalo, New York Islanders are good examples)

Calgary and Edmonton are facing severe financial problems while Quebec and Winnipeg had to leave Canada. Disney wants to sell the Mighty Ducks and the owner of the Atlanta Thrashers wants to sell all of their sports franchises.

I can't imagine what the owners of Nashville, Columbus, Tampa and Florida are thinking. Even when they give tickets away the stadiums aren't full and the NHL more than any other major professional league relies on the ticket holder for revenue.

And I dispute the statement that George Gillette is pinching pennies. A $45 million dollar payroll (US funds) is a long way from pinching pennies... it represents a tremendous overhead.

There is also a misguided thought that owners shouldn't be concerned about making a profit. But if they don't profit, how long do they keep dipping into their own bank accounts to keep their expensive toy (franchise) operating.

And no matter how much the owners spend, only one team will win the Stanley cup each year and 14 teams will miss the playoffs. That means almost 1/2 the fans in the league will have to tolerate not being entertained each year if entertainment is measured by making the playoffs. If that 1/2 has had enough and doesn't come back, who replaces them?

I sincerely hope that an agreement can be reached but if it takes a lockout to resolve the situation, then I am all for it.

I am not an owner nor a member of the press. And the gullible are those that believe the status quo is a viable option.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Strummerman said:

Quote:
NHL players have already visited this site. Also, this petition will be sent to the NHL and NHLPA when the season ends. Since you are the source of their income, they should be very interested to hear your opinion.

This sounds like a telemarketer. Yes NHL players have visited this site and... have they signed the petition???

Who are you quoting? Source?

What petition? Where is this petition? Link?

[cousin nark]

Strummerman said:

Let me respond to all this nonsense

Let us be clear there will be no work stoppage- there will be a lock-out by owners. We have an economic disaster? How many teams have gone bankrupt???Which owners want to sell their teams??? This is nonsense promoted by supporters of the owners or may I add journalists in the pockets of the owners, or simply gullible people.

How about Pittsburgh, Buffalo and Ottawa all filing for bankruptcy protection since 1998 and L.A. in 1995?

How about the number of teams that have changed ownership in the last 5 or 6 years?

Glad that you're here to lead the rest of us gullibles and put a stop to the nonsense.

[cousin nark]

mr said:

Who are you quoting? Source?

What petition? Where is this petition? Link?

First post on this thread MrB.

tuzzitracks said:

There is a petition circulating at www.savehockey.com/. Some people say it’s pointless, but I figure it can’t hurt. There’s also some other interesting stuff there. Cheers.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

cousin said:

First post on this thread MrB.

Thanks for the citation. Think I'll sign.

[franko]

A small suggestion to "saving the game": insist the zebras do more than use the rulebook to prop the dressing room door open. Call the stinking game the way it is meant to be. Let the skaters skate. Etc etc etc.

[PTH]

BadCompany said:

I disagree. The “market the stars” approach comes from the NBA...............

Now, I never said market the stars, I'm just saying that they're the ones who make the show. A fun team to watch is fun because of a handful of players, and when that handful is hurt or tired then the team is bland, and the rivalry falls apart for that night.

As Habs fans we might not care if Neely was on a good or bad streak on a given night, but if he was on a good streak the game was better, and those good streaks are better and longer for rested players. And we can say that teams could rest guys, but most teams are really a core of 4-8 guys and the rest are essentially filler. Having the right filler is important, but if the key guys are not playing, a team will have a strong chance of losing, hence the stars always play. Otherwise, some games would litterally be mail-ins.

"Oh, it's the Milwaukee Bumblebees, and we never do well against them anyways, so let's rest Theo, Markov, Souray, Koivu, Bulis and Zednik, and tell the rest not to give up too easily but especially, not to get hurt"

I'm all for rivalries, but not at the expense of more games which will hurt the rest of the games.

[Strummerman]

Quote:
You obviously live in a different reality than I do.

There are a number of teams that a facing a serious financial crisis. The only thing that prevents them from folding is that the owner digs deeper into his own pocket or new owners with even deeper pockets are found (Ottawa, Buffalo, New York Islanders are good examples)

I ask myself over and over did George Gillett buy the Habs to make money? Or did he buy them for the prestige of owning the Habs? Are these people buying sports franchises to make a bundle? Is that why Ted Leonsis of AOL bought the capitals so he can make an extra billion? Or Melnick of Biovail buy the Senators to make a buck? Reality is they are in it for prestige.

Quote:
Calgary and Edmonton are facing severe financial problems while Quebec and Winnipeg had to leave Canada. Disney wants to sell the Mighty Ducks and the owner of the Atlanta Thrashers wants to sell all of their sports franchises.

Quebec and Winnipeg should never have gotten franchises. The only reason for the NHL was to disband the WHA. They did not have the population base or the resources to have a franchise. Edmonton and Calgary are not far behind. Let the market dictate who survives. The reason Disney wants to sell the Ducks is economic? Why did they sign Fedorov? Doubt it. As for the Thrashers, if they want to sell all sports franchises it has nothing to do with hockey.

Quote:
I can't imagine what the owners of Nashville, Columbus, Tampa and Florida are thinking. Even when they give tickets away the stadiums aren't full and the NHL more than any other major professional league relies on the ticket holder for revenue.

Which one of these teams is in financial crisis? WHo signed Todd Marchant as a free agent? Any salary dumps on these teams?


Quote:
And I dispute the statement that George Gillette is pinching pennies. A $45 million dollar payroll (US funds) is a long way from pinching pennies... it represents a tremendous overhead.

Why didnt he sign Hatcher? Why didnt he sign Marchant? Why didnt he sign Fedorov? Why didnt he sign Marchment??



Quote:
There is also a misguided thought that owners shouldn't be concerned about making a profit. But if they don't profit, how long do they keep dipping into their own bank accounts to keep their expensive toy (franchise) operating.

As long as their billionaires. And by the way they all think their sports franchises are toys and nothing else.

Quote:
And no matter how much the owners spend, only one team will win the Stanley cup each year and 14 teams will miss the playoffs. That means almost 1/2 the fans in the league will have to tolerate not being entertained each year if entertainment is measured by making the playoffs. If that 1/2 has had enough and doesn't come back, who replaces them?

And that is why each year the teams that dont make the playoffs go under??? ANd that is why fans stop going cause they didnt make the playoffs? The Leafs havent won the Cup since 1967, they have been sold out for ages- The Flyers havent won the Cup since 1975- they have sold out for ages- The Rangers one Cup in 50 years- always sold out

Quote:
I sincerely hope that an agreement can be reached but if it takes a lockout to resolve the situation, then I am all for it.

Yeah right those billionaire owners shouldnt pay Sidney Crosby the millions he will make them. Lets cap Sidney at a million a year- just like Orr at 200 grand a year good work- lets keep those entertainers poor and lets keep the filthy rich even richer

Quote:
I am not an owner nor a member of the press. And the gullible are those that believe the status quo is a viable option.

Oh yes I cant wait for the apocalypse if we maintain the staus quo. Once again I ask if the Leaf fans or the Wings fans or the Avalanche fans want the status quo???


Frankly I have written about this on the non habs related board.

[Strummerman]

cousin said:

How about Pittsburgh, Buffalo and Ottawa all filing for bankruptcy protection since 1998 and L.A. in 1995?

How about the number of teams that have changed ownership in the last 5 or 6 years?

Glad that you're here to lead the rest of us gullibles and put a stop to the nonsense.

Last I heard Buffalo Pittsburgh and Ottawa and LA still have teams. Anyone heard of taking advantage of a bankruptcy filing?

The teams that changed owners like Buffalo? The owner that was arrested and so they had to find new owners? Or Ottawa the president with no cash trying to buy his own team with other people's money. So a billionaire bought them now Aww shucks.

Le tme lead you gullibles out of the mindsets created by journalists in the pockets of owners and into the reality of professional sports.

[blaise]

Isn't it condescending of you, strummerman, to refer to "you gullibles"? You invite comebacks rather than debate.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Strummerman said:

Le tme lead you gullibles out of the mindsets created by journalists in the pockets of owners and into the reality of professional sports

They're selling postcards of the hanging
They're painting the passports brown
The beauty parlor is filled with sailors
The circus is in town
Here comes the blind commissioner
They've got him in a trance
One hand is tied to the tight-rope walker
The other is in his pants
And the riot squad they're restless
They need somewhere to go
As Lady and I look out tonight
From Desolation Row

- from "Desolation Row" on "Highway 61 Revisited" by Bob Dylan, 1965.

[PTH]

Strummerman said:

Le tme lead you gullibles ...

You gullibles ? Did you read the Code of Conduct ? That's the kind of needlessly insulting post that really should get you in trouble with the mods, or even outright banned...

A real shame, since you might actually have a point to make.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Balance is always achieved on this board, and the rules always come into effect. No surprise there. Except perhaps for those who assume this place is like some other place.

[cousin nark]

Strummerman said:

Last I heard Buffalo Pittsburgh and Ottawa and LA still have teams. Anyone heard of taking advantage of a bankruptcy filing?

I'm not too sure I get your point. Actually I dont get your point. You asked a question in an earlier post.

Strummerman said:

Let us be clear there will be no work stoppage- there will be a lock-out by owners. We have an economic disaster? How many teams have gone bankrupt???Which owners want to sell their teams???

Then when an answer is given to you, by listing the teams that went bankrupt, you talk about the teams still being there. Yes they are still there, but with new owners. The point is they did go bankrupt.

[cousin nark]

franko said:

A small suggestion to "saving the game": insist the zebras do more than use the rulebook to prop the dressing room door open. Call the stinking game the way it is meant to be. Let the skaters skate. Etc etc etc.

I agree there. We have went through that at the start of the season for how many years? They are going to call it by the book, crack down and not let up. And yet very little has changed long term.

Some teams take advantage of this slack calling of the rules to the full extent (recently Carolina) and the quality of the game shows. Watching the game, it felt like the Habs were being beaten, hacked, hooked, and mugged into submission.

[Strummerman]

Blaise said:

Isn't it condescending of you, strummerman, to refer to "you gullibles"? You invite comebacks rather than debate.

Well considering the minority of billionaires in our society, anyone I consider defending billionaires over high school graduate athletes as gullible. Gullible does not mean I consider them stupid but overwhelmed by the bombardment of media

[Strummerman]

mr said:

They're selling postcards of the hanging
They're painting the passports brown
The beauty parlor is filled with sailors
The circus is in town
Here comes the blind commissioner
They've got him in a trance
One hand is tied to the tight-rope walker
The other is in his pants
And the riot squad they're restless
They need somewhere to go
As Lady and I look out tonight
From Desolation Row

- from "Desolation Row" on "Highway 61 Revisited" by Bob Dylan, 1965.

ah yes i pity the poor billionaire that cant make ends meet?

I think the media including Red Fisher Pierre Maguire and Alan Eagleson defenders should listen to Dylan's The times they are a changing over and over again

[Strummerman]

PTH said:

You gullibles ? Did you read the Code of Conduct ? That's the kind of needlessly insulting post that really should get you in trouble with the mods, or even outright banned...

A real shame, since you might actually have a point to make.

Ok your response to my critique is to have me banned- Good for you. I think you should read about the Joe Mccarthy era over and over. I am an historian and know blatant distortion when I see it. Anyways calling someone gullible is insulting??? If you dont agree that youa re gullible show me why you are defending billionaires over high school athletes???

[Strummerman]

cousin said:

I'm not too sure I get your point. Actually I dont get your point. You asked a question in an earlier post.



Then when an answer is given to you, by listing the teams that went bankrupt, you talk about the teams still being there. Yes they are still there, but with new owners. The point is they did go bankrupt.

Many people file bankruptcies in order to buy back what they own at half the price. That is what the Ottawa owner intended to do.

The point is they did not go under. They still exist and if a team is not viable why would anyone buy them??? As well all these teams have fully paid their players and have never been stopped from playing a game. Case closed. Bankruptcy is a technical term- Stopping operations is another.