|
|
Post by Skilly on Feb 6, 2004 21:19:18 GMT -5
With the announcement today that Pat Quinn, Jacques Martin, and Wayne Fleming were named coaches, yet again, of Canada's entry into this year's World Cup. I guess the specualtion now starts as to who Canada will select as forwards, defense, and goalies.
26 players get selected (of which 3 have to be under 23, and 3 have to be goalies). I have 27 names that I would consider selecting from, so I had to drop one, and I chose Ryan Smyth (but it killed me to do it).
Goalies : Brodeur, Theodore, Luongo
Forwards: Thornton, Murray, Bertuzzi
Sakic, Iginla, Tanguay
Marleau, Nash (20), Heatley
Spezza (21), Madden, Gagne
others : St. Louis, Lecavalier, Doan
Defense: Pronger, Blake, Niedermayer, Jovo, Foote,
McCabe, Souray, and Boumeester (20).
Well feel free to let me know if you agree, disagree, what changes you would make, and line combos. I didn't necessarily put them in lines .... I just put down names I thought would go through Gretzky's mind.
Let the debate begin.
|
|
snap
Rookie
Posts: 93
|
Post by snap on Feb 6, 2004 22:48:04 GMT -5
I would have to disagree with several choices.
Considering we're playing on a small ice surface and Gretz likes familiarity. Lemiux has already been handed a spot if he is ready. Murray, Madden, Gagne and Spezza have outside shots IMO, with maybe Spezza having the best shot of that list. Thinking already that the PF may rule this team but despite that Paul Kariya is likely to be welcomed back. Yzerman, Sakic, Peca and Shanny I think have a very good shots too IMO. I will agree that St.Louis, Doan and Lecavalier have excellent shots as well.
Goaltending I would change one and that is Luongo. I think Belfour will be offered that spot due to Quinn's involvment and he has not been too shaby either. Luongo has a shot, but I think it's an outside one.
Defence is often the difference and being it is on small ice I can see a few Bangers. With Pronger, Blake and Niedermayer being all but shoe-ins, the other 4 spots I believe it is is totally up for grabs. Souray with his remarkable season and hitting prowess has a good chance simply because it is on a smaller suface, I think if it were international ice he wouldn't even be more than an after thought. Jovo, Foote and Redden to me are going to be there. McCabe is quicker than Souray but is inconsistant, good physical presence but I don't think quite as big of a threat overall, although T.O. fan's are saying he is on the team...Bowmeester I think will be around next time. Blake is not quite ready to give up his spot to Bowmeester and considering his injury this season it's not likely the coaches will get a good chance to evaluate his play.
|
|
|
|
Post by Andrew on Feb 6, 2004 23:01:41 GMT -5
Some thoughts:
I'm betting Belfour will take Luongo's place in your roster (given that he's more experienced, having a great season, and plays for Pat Quinn).
I'm not a huge Tanguay fan - I'd rather see Kariya come back.
St. Louis is the real deal and definitely warrants a spot.
I haven't watched many Flyers games, and can't comment on how Gagne has played, but statistically he's been rather un-impressive this year and last. I think he may have played himself off the team.
I'd like to see Doan get the nod.
Mario might just surprise us all and be back.
Please don't bring back Shanahan or Nolan.
|
|
|
|
Post by Skilly on Feb 7, 2004 11:51:59 GMT -5
I definately agree with you there that Shanny and Nolan shouldn't be back. I did not include Lemieux for one reason .... he gave up on this season to hopefully keep the franchise around next year. I don't think he will have a good enough excuse for the fans of Pittsburgh if he plays for the World Cup and only plays half the games next year in the NHL (if there is a season ... if not well then we know he plays)
As for your team snap. Well I agree that all the players you mentioned will be considered but if Boumeester is not in the line-up, and Spezza is not in the line-up then please telll me one thing .......
Who will be Canada's 3 under 23 yr old players???
If it isn't Nash, Spezza, and Boumeester then I am assuming you have three better picks? Maybe Sidney Crosby will be invited ala Lindros in the 90's??
|
|
|
|
Post by jkr on Feb 7, 2004 13:42:40 GMT -5
I'm betting Belfour will take Luongo's place in your roster (given that he's more experienced, having a great season, and plays for Pat Quinn). I think giving Belfour a spot because he plays for Quinn is the kind if thinking we should avoid. Winning the World Cup would be nice but the real goal is preparing for the 2006 Olympics. Belfour will be done by then ( he is almost 39 now). You have to go with guys like Theodore, Luongo or Turco as Brodeur's backup. They are Canada's future in goal. |
|
|
|
Post by Forum Ghost on Feb 7, 2004 16:20:37 GMT -5
I think giving Belfour a spot because he plays for Quinn is the kind if thinking we should avoid. Winning the World Cup would be nice but the real goal is preparing for the 2006 Olympics. Belfour will be done by then ( he is almost 39 now). You have to go with guys like Theodore, Luongo or Turco as Brodeur's backup. They are Canada's future in goal. I agree. After Brodeur, the no. 2 and 3 goalie spots should be given to players who will be a part of Team Canada's future. Belfour might not even play next season, never mind being around in 2006. As of right now, IMO, the spots for the second and third-string goalies should be given to Theodore and Luongo. |
|
|
|
Post by Forum Ghost on Feb 7, 2004 16:37:45 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Skilly on Feb 7, 2004 21:50:34 GMT -5
It irks the H.E. Double Hockey Sticks out of me that Gretzky is apt to put his buddies (Mario and Stevie Y) on the team. They had their shot, step aside and give the youth movemant a chance at their's. The 2 of these guys are on their last legs with major injury problems. It is no odds to them if they get injured at the World Cup because they have one foot already out the retirement door .... but if they do go down then Canada is going to suffer. I'd rather take my chance with St. Louis, LeCavalier, and Murray over Lemieux, Stevie Y, and Kariya.
Kariya gets injured in every major international tournament (I know Gary Suter is to blame ... boo hoo).... I believe he only made it through one world championship.
|
|
|
|
Post by Forum Ghost on Feb 8, 2004 4:53:42 GMT -5
It irks the H.E. Double Hockey Sticks out of me that Gretzky is apt to put his buddies (Mario and Stevie Y) on the team. They had their shot, step aside and give the youth movemant a chance at their's. The 2 of these guys are on their last legs with major injury problems. It is no odds to them if they get injured at the World Cup because they have one foot already out the retirement door .... but if they do go down then Canada is going to suffer. I'd rather take my chance with St. Louis, LeCavalier, and Murray over Lemieux, Stevie Y, and Kariya. Similar to a Stanley Cup winning team, experience is a valuable commodity and I don' t think that anyone can replace the experience that Mario and Yzerman have to offer. There are going to be a lot of changes up front. The World Cup/Olympics is an elite level of play and many of the new players will be playing at this elite level for the very first time. I think that the experience and leadership qualities that Mario and Stevie Y bring, will be much needed and is a very valuable asset that should not be overlooked. |
|
|
|
Post by Skilly on Feb 8, 2004 16:32:09 GMT -5
Oh you mean like the 98 Olympics ...... all that experience really showed up in the shootout. All the vets had their crack (except Gretzky) and only the young guy scored.
|
|
|
|
Post by Forum Ghost on Feb 9, 2004 0:33:10 GMT -5
Oh you mean like the 98 Olympics ...... all that experience really showed up in the shootout. All the vets had their crack (except Gretzky) and only the young guy scored. And vets like Lemieux and Yzerman were completely useless in 2002.  Nagano '98 was a situation where there were too many vets, whereas Salt Lake City 2002 was a team with the perfect mix of both youth and vets. If you look at the proposed lineup by Bob McKenzie, you'll see that he has Sakic, Yzerman and Lemieux as the veteran leaders among the forwards. That's only three 3 veteran forwards out of 15. On a team with so many newcomers, IMO, that seems to be a reasonable ratio. This veteran leadership is necessary to have especially when there are so many players (Nash, Bertuzzi, Tanguay, Doan, Thornton, Spezza, Marleau, etc.) who would be playing in such an elite tournament for the very first time. Besides it's been proven time and time again, that if Mario Lemieux is healthy he will produce. He can be a productive player on any team. Gretzky isn't saying that he'll drag Mario away from rehab to get him on the team. He said that if Mario is healthy, he'll be on the team. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In the forward lineup that you proposed: Sakic, Gagne and Iginla are the only returning forwards from 2002, and out of the three, only Sakic can be called a "veteran". The rest of the players on your list will be playing in a high-level tournament such as the World Cup for the very first time. A lineup like this one, IMO, is one that I consider to be too thin on veterans. In other words, it is like the Nagano team in that there is not the right balance of youth and vets. |
|
|
|
Post by blny on Feb 9, 2004 11:50:34 GMT -5
Brad Stuart and Eric Brewer? Both? Bobby Mac must be smokin' crack. Stuart maybe. He's pretty reliable, and can chip in some points. Brewer is turning into another Poti. How either/both can get the nod over Souray is beyond me. I also think that Belfour will be on the roster. The hierarchy will be Brodeur/Belfour/Theodore. Luongo would be there if Quinn wasn't the coach. Belfour has been the saving grace many nights for the Leafs, but no where near as heroic as Luongo. Theodore shouldn't be snubbed considering his 2002 awards, and his rebound this year to an elite level. Of the forwards, half of them play centre. It'd be interesting to see who gets shifted to the wing. Wes Walz? He's a good checker with speed, but really? Wes Walz? There may be a "kid" line with Nash, Spezza, and Marleau. Checking duties will likely fall to Peca, Primeau, and Yzerman/Walz (if that lineup is accurate). Could we see a Kamloops reunion? Iggy, Doan, and the centre of your choosing. Sakic would be my pick. That leaves a line of Thornton, Kariya, and Bertuzzi. Lemieux is on the outside looking in and so is Tanguay. So, by my deduction here's what we have if Mac's lineup comes true: Doan - Sakic - Inginla Bertuzzi - Thornton - Kariya Yzerman/Walz - Peca - Primeau Marleau - Spezza - Nash Spares: Lemieux - Tanguay Blake - Foote Pronger - Souray Niedermayer - Jovanovski Spares: Stuart - Bouwmeester Brodeur Belfour Theodore (the next will be his). Lemieux can be inserted in Spezza's place, and there wouldn't be pressure on Mario to produce. He could play with two young kids, help them mature, and wouldn't have a defensive responsibility. Give him all the PP time he wants. Counting on him to be healthy at this point is not a good idea so until confirmed I won't put him in the starting lineup. Overall, the forward lines all have good combinations of size and skill. There's grit on each line, and leadership too. Each line has some speed and finish, and goals can come from anywhere. On defense Blake and Foote are a strong tandem. Foote has the back end, and Blake will play rover. Both can bang bodies and handle their own. The other two pairings are up in the air. I've supplanted Brewer for Souray. I don't think Brewer has developed at all the last two years. Of Brewer and Stuart, I'll take Stuart. He's more dependable. We won't need blazing speed from the back end on the smaller ice, so Niedermayer should be enough, and if Bouwmeester plays we'll have plenty. I'd like to see Souray and Pronger together. It might be the meanest pairing seen in a long time. However, they may be split up to allow Niedermayer and Jovo to wander. I think Souray has earned heavy consideration, and his play this year is far and away better than that of Brewer's the last two. |
|
|
|
Post by jkr on Feb 9, 2004 18:38:22 GMT -5
I also think that Belfour will be on the roster. The hierarchy will be Brodeur/Belfour/Theodore. Luongo would be there if Quinn wasn't the coach. Belfour has been the saving grace many nights for the Leafs, but no where near as heroic as Luongo. Theodore shouldn't be snubbed considering his 2002 awards, and his rebound this year to an elite level. I don't want to harp on this ( already posted this thought) but if this happens it is the wrong kind of thinking. I will give Quinn the benefit of the doubt though. He did drop his guy - Joseph - in favor of Brodeur in 2002. So if this does happen we have to believe the selection was made for the good of the team and not because Quinn is playing favorites or rewarding someone for past service. |
|
|
|
Post by Strummerman on Feb 9, 2004 19:59:09 GMT -5
I think Martin St Louis has proven that he may be the best player in the NHL. he is simply outstanding. An Yvan Cournoyer clone.
As for the team here are my choices and lines:
Thornton Heatley Bertuzzi
Sakic Iginla Kariya
Lemieux St Louis Lecavalier
Peca Shanahan Nolan
Reserves Tanguay Nash Spezza Doan Gagne
Defence
Pronger Jovanovski
Blake Redden
Morris Niedermeyer
Reserves
Souray Mccabe
Goalies
Brodeur Luongo Theo or Turco tough call?
|
|
|
|
Post by Skilly on Feb 9, 2004 21:14:56 GMT -5
Strummerman .... only 26 get selected .... you have 29.
I do think Lemieux is valuable to the team .... I just don't think he will have the "cahoonahs" to play after not playing this year and then maybe only half of next year ..... unless he is sure the lockout will go on for a long time.
And it isn't lik eI have no leadership on my team ... although young only one does not have any international experience ... Sheldon Souray ... (could not find him on any world junior team rosters). They have all had playoff atmosphere in international competition as well.
Do we really need veteran leadership on every line though? I have seven players on my team with Stanley Cups. And seven players are captains on their respective teams.
If they do indeed go the vet route and want to select 3-4 vets ..... then I am sure we can do better than 38-39 yr old buddies of Wayne with bum legs and backs .... that's all I am saying.
|
|
|
|
Post by Strummerman on Feb 9, 2004 23:02:21 GMT -5
Strummerman .... only 26 get selected .... you have 29. I do think Lemieux is valuable to the team .... I just don't think he will have the "cahoonahs" to play after not playing this year and then maybe only half of next year ..... unless he is sure the lockout will go on for a long time. And it isn't lik eI have no leadership on my team ... although young only one does not have any international experience ... Sheldon Souray ... (could not find him on any world junior team rosters). They have all had playoff atmosphere in international competition as well. Do we really need veteran leadership on every line though? I have seven players on my team with Stanley Cups. And seven players are captains on their respective teams. If they do indeed go the vet route and want to select 3-4 vets ..... then I am sure we can do better than 38-39 yr old buddies of Wayne with bum legs and backs .... that's all I am saying. Mario led the league in scoring when he had semi decent linemates 2 years ago- you put him on a line with nhl'ers rather than ahl'ers and Lemieux at half speed is twice as good as most players- As for the vets- Sakic I think deserves to be on this team for what he did last time- I thought Shananhan and Nolan were washed up before the year but they have shown me a lot again this year- As for kariya he lifts his game when he plays for Canada and I think the last half of the season and the playoffs will decide if he makes it I like your choices as well Marleau is tough whether he should be on- but I think your rushing Spezza in- he has not shown he is the real deal yet- I rank even Ribeiro ahead of him based on this year's performance-Im not sure Gagne deserves to be a starter considering what he has done recently-Tanguay-how good is he without Forsberg and Hedjuk?? As for defence I think Foote is really long on the tooth and Bouwmeester is not in the elite yet |
|
|
|
Post by Forum Ghost on Feb 10, 2004 0:12:04 GMT -5
I like your choices as well Marleau is tough whether he should be on- but I think your rushing Spezza in- he has not shown he is the real deal yet- I rank even Ribeiro ahead of him based on this year's performance- As for defence I think Foote is really long on the tooth and Bouwmeester is not in the elite yet Remember, that there has to be 3 players on the roster who are under the age of 23. Because of that stipulation, players like Spezza, Bouwmeester and Rick Nash are most likely going to be on the team. |
|
|
|
Post by seventeen on Feb 10, 2004 0:25:12 GMT -5
Rick Nash deserves to be there....not sure the other two do. (yet, of course).
|
|
|
|
Post by PTH on Feb 10, 2004 7:12:55 GMT -5
Rick Nash deserves to be there....not sure the other two do. (yet, of course). Well, don't judge what they deserve as compared to other potential NHLers, but compare them to other under-23's, at which point they gain a lot of points in terms of deserving to be there. |
|
|
|
Post by Strummerman on Feb 10, 2004 19:04:10 GMT -5
Hmm Heatley just turned 23 unfortunately- Yup nash will be on the team, Spezza maybe, How bout Lupul or Derek Roy, but Boumeester is the best of the youth as well
|
|
|
|
Post by Skilly on Feb 10, 2004 21:39:15 GMT -5
Posted by: Strummerman Posted on: 02/09/2004 at 23:02:21
Err when? He has played on alot of world championship teams .... 3 times his has been selected as a player in the shootout ... 3 times he has not scored. He missed the 98 Olympics due to the Suter hit, the last Olympics you barely knew he was on the ice. Kariya is the most over-rated player in the league. Time to put out the mouse traps .... and he'll squeal back to his little hole.
If you want vets. Well how come no one is taking about Mark Recchi .... now he deserves to be there but I get the feeling that Gretz doesn't want him .... ohhhh 52 points not good enough for you now.
|
|
|
|
Post by Strummerman on Feb 11, 2004 0:01:48 GMT -5
Sheesh Kariya was the star of the first Olympics he played on - the line was with Peter Nedved and Brian Savage. So he missed on a shoot-out- so did Roberto Baggio in soccer does that make him a dud. Kariya played very well in the last Olympics as well.
Mark Recchi is way past his prime in fact kariya is nearing the end too but recchi is too old for international- There is a difference when you play in the NHL.
|
|
|
|
Post by Skilly on Feb 11, 2004 11:32:45 GMT -5
Recchi is too old for international?
Recchi is 36. 52 points this year in the NHL.
Mario is 38. Bad back ..... could play the whole touornament ... could play just one shift. Remember he almost didn't make it through the entire Olympics. He had doctors on his back the entire Olympics before, and after each period.
Yzerman is 39 in May. 32 points this year in the NHL.
And in case you never heard .... the World Cup gets played on NHL sized ice surfaces not international/Olympic sized. So what is this difference you speak of?
|
|
|
|
Post by Strummerman on Feb 11, 2004 19:03:59 GMT -5
Recchi is too old for international? Recchi is 36. 52 points this year in the NHL. Mario is 38. Bad back ..... could play the whole touornament ... could play just one shift. Remember he almost didn't make it through the entire Olympics. He had doctors on his back the entire Olympics before, and after each period. Yzerman is 39 in May. 32 points this year in the NHL. And in case you never heard .... the World Cup gets played on NHL sized ice surfaces not international/Olympic sized. So what is this difference you speak of? The legs are the difference- In soccer veterans are cast aside for youth because in a tournament it is all out energy for a few games- When was the last time baggio played for Italy- I wonder if you recall the last World Cup where the Americans skated circles around the veteran Canadians like Messier- Im not going to compare Lemieux with Recchi I think the skill level is miles apart-Lemieux is in another stratosphere- the Bobby Orr Wayne Gretzky Jean Beliveau etc stratosphere- obviously Mario will know if he can go- injuries aside he is the most skilled active player. I dont think I said Yzerman should be on the team- I think he has been a major disappointment for Canada even in his prime and the last Olympics was probably his finest moment for canada which is not saying much- If Recchi was not chosen in his prime to play for Canada- why would they choose hom now? |
|
|
|
Post by Skilly on Feb 12, 2004 7:29:53 GMT -5
Talk about your contradictions.
First you say my team lacks veteran leadership, and you want Lemieux, Shanny and Nolan. Than you say youth is the way yo go to prevent the Americans from skating circles around us.
If you look at my team I picked youth ... for that reason. The Americans this time will be a very old team. (Hull, Leetch, Modano, etc) They will also be forced to pick very young players as their under 23 players. (I wouldn't be surprised to see Patrick O'Sullivan as one)
As for Yzerman .... well the last time he suited up for Canada (02 Olympics as a 37 yr old) he was pretty dominant ..... and that on two bum knees. I justthink that as a 39 yr old he should be left off this team and go with youth .... but if they were to choose vets I would rather see Recchi than Yzerman, Shanny or Nolan.
I agree Lemieux is a different player. But if he gets hurt than you may as well move Pittsburgh's franchise .... and he knows this.
|
|
|
|
Post by Strummerman on Feb 12, 2004 22:50:27 GMT -5
Talk about your contradictions. First you say my team lacks veteran leadership, and you want Lemieux, Shanny and Nolan. Than you say youth is the way yo go to prevent the Americans from skating circles around us. If you look at my team I picked youth ... for that reason. The Americans this time will be a very old team. (Hull, Leetch, Modano, etc) They will also be forced to pick very young players as their under 23 players. (I wouldn't be surprised to see Patrick O'Sullivan as one) As for Yzerman .... well the last time he suited up for Canada (02 Olympics as a 37 yr old) he was pretty dominant ..... and that on two bum knees. I justthink that as a 39 yr old he should be left off this team and go with youth .... but if they were to choose vets I would rather see Recchi than Yzerman, Shanny or Nolan. I agree Lemieux is a different player. But if he gets hurt than you may as well move Pittsburgh's franchise .... and he knows this. Frankly Yzerman was not dominant in the 02 Olympics- Sakic was dominant Iginla was dominant but Yzerman? Wasnt his only goal on a great pass by Lemieux? The problem with the last World Cup was that there were too many veterans. On my team the veterans are mostly on the 4th line. Heatley Thornton St Louis Iginla Nash Spezza are not veterans. Sakic and Kariya still have the speed to match youthful players. As for the World Cup one never knows who will dominate. Look at the Russians with Kovalchuk and Samsonov. |
|
|
|
Post by jkr on Feb 12, 2004 23:04:19 GMT -5
If Recchi was not chosen in his prime to play for Canada- why would they choose hom now? I don't mean to jump in between your discussion with skilly but I just wanted to bring up a small point. Recchi did play for Canada in 98. He wasn't originally chosen but called when Team Canada ran into injury problems. I don't think that automatically qualifies him for the WOrld Cup though. |
|
|
|
Post by Strummerman on Feb 13, 2004 17:18:40 GMT -5
I don't mean to jump in between your discussion with skilly but I just wanted to bring up a small point. Recchi did play for Canada in 98. He wasn't originally chosen but called when Team Canada ran into injury problems. I don't think that automatically qualifies him for the WOrld Cup though. well I didnt wanna say anything but wasnt Recchi a dud in 98 |
|
|
|
Post by Skilly on Feb 13, 2004 23:16:57 GMT -5
Apparently you measure a player's worth by the number of goals they get.
Yzerman was utilized as the fourth line center in Salt Lake City. He completely shut down the opposing teams top lines, exept for those little hiccups in games #1 and #2, but after Joseph was mercifully put on the bench, well Yzerman's defensive skills came to the forefront. Dominant. But that was as a 37 yr old. I do not think he could do that now ...especially with Detroit using him less and less on the PK.
But the most dominat fourth liner in all of hockey, probably the best fourth liner in the history of hockey, one of the best on the penalty kill, and definately the most short-handed goals over the last couple of years is John Madden ..... and that's why I chose him over Yzerman. I know Yzerman is going to be there .... but what role will he play .... if they expect him to play the same role as 02 .... well I think they are better off going with Madden.
I believe Recchi replaced Paul Kariya ...... I wouldn't say he was a dud ..... just not utilized
|
|
|
|
Post by Strummerman on Feb 13, 2004 23:24:33 GMT -5
Apparently you measure a player's worth by the number of goals they get. Yzerman was utilized as the fourth line center in Salt Lake City. He completely shut down the opposing teams top lines, exept for those little hiccups in games #1 and #2, but after Joseph was mercifully put on the bench, well Yzerman's defensive skills came to the forefront. Dominant. But that was as a 37 yr old. I do not think he could do that now ...especially with Detroit using him less and less on the PK. But the most dominat fourth liner in all of hockey, probably the best fourth liner in the history of hockey, one of the best on the penalty kill, and definately the most short-handed goals over the last couple of years is John Madden ..... and that's why I chose him over Yzerman. I know Yzerman is going to be there .... but what role will he play .... if they expect him to play the same role as 02 .... well I think they are better off going with Madden. I believe Recchi replaced Paul Kariya ...... I wouldn't say he was a dud ..... just not utilized I dont think Yzerman was brought on the team to be a 4th line center, its just that he never produces in international competition so they have no choice. He was adequate in 2002 not dominant. Sakic was dominant. Mario was dominant that one game against the czecks. As for Recchi, one thing I cant say against him is he has always been one hard worker even with Montreal. However, in Montreal he was the hardest working dud, he just didnt produce as he did before. What a terrible trade, Leclair and Desjardins and Dionne for Recchi. Now that Roenick is injured Im curious to see how many goals Recchi gets the rest of the year. As for Madden, he has good legs. However is the defence good because of him or because of Brodeur. The same question could be asked of Yzerman in 02 Olympics. |
|
