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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Apr 22, 2004 12:23:35 GMT -5
If you compare the team he started with against the one he coaches today he's has a long run of success. No cup, but overall a very big improvement and string of strong teams.
Changing coaches doesn't guarantee anything.
His team outplayed Toronto everywhere but on the scoreboard.
Not sure I would fire him?
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Post by AH on Apr 22, 2004 12:26:23 GMT -5
Well I guess they finally came to their senses over there. They should have fired him after the 2001 playoff debacle vs the Leafs. But they didn't ...
I bet you Larry ends up there with a promise to get a front line goalie.
Ottawa now will be the best team in the East for the next five years, bar none.
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Post by franko on Apr 22, 2004 12:29:11 GMT -5
Not sure I would fire him? Mostly a PR move -- the natives are restless. Even if they'd beaten the Leafs the fans would have been a little more satisfied (though still discontent). I've listened to calls for his head for the past 5 years or so. Even after last year there were complaints that Martin, though a good coach and a good guy, wasn't the man to take the team over the top. He has done an amazing job, given the financial restrictions he has had to work with. He'll be picked up by someone in a heartbeat. |
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Post by cigarviper on Apr 22, 2004 12:33:28 GMT -5
Well I guess they finally came to their senses over there. They should have fired him after the 2001 playoff debacle vs the Leafs. But they didn't ... I bet you Larry ends up there with a promise to get a front line goalie. Ottawa now will be the best team in the East for the next five years, bar none. Muckler's clearly on the defensive. Quick firings, reiterating his faith in his trade deadline decisions means he's doing the CYA thing. Larry who? Quenneville or Robinson? I don't know about Ottawa being the best in the east for the next five years though. Some tough competition there. |
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Post by rhabdo on Apr 22, 2004 13:17:01 GMT -5
Muckler seems to have learned some bad tendencies from Sather.
Ottawa is not the situation Robinson would prefer: pressure to win with a veteran team.
Quenneville will probably end up in New York.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Apr 22, 2004 13:48:21 GMT -5
I don't think Muckler had any other choice considering the talent Martin had to work with and the final results.
Bonk was very ineffective but yet Spezza sat in the pressbox or got limited ice time. Tie Domi was one of the Leafs most productive forward, but Martin didn't insert Ray in the lineup for just one game to nutralize him.
If Muckler is smart he hires Quenneville before the Rangers make a bid. Ottawa has much more now talent
He also waits until July and offers free agent Eddie Belfour and I think Roberts a contract for two years each and makes his cup run next season.
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Post by CentreHice on Apr 22, 2004 13:54:04 GMT -5
Phone conversation: Melnyk: "Hello Iron Mike, want a job?" Mike Keenan: "Let me think on that a minute... YES!" That would be Melnyk's best move. And Spezza would stay. Isn't is clear that Martin doesn't like Spezza? With Martin gone, Spezza stays. The player most likely to be gone is Bonk. Did he break a sweat in 7 games? I didn't see the effort. |
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Post by Skilly on Apr 22, 2004 13:59:27 GMT -5
That would be Melnyk's best move. And Spezza would stay. Isn't is clear that Martin doesn't like Spezza? With Martin gone, Spezza stays. The player most likely to be gone is Bonk. Did he break a sweat in 7 games? I didn't see the effort. Agreed Spezza isn't going anywhere now. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Apr 22, 2004 14:29:27 GMT -5
That would be Melnyk's best move. And Spezza would stay. Isn't is clear that Martin doesn't like Spezza? With Martin gone, Spezza stays. The player most likely to be gone is Bonk. Did he break a sweat in 7 games? I didn't see the effort. I watched both Bonk and Kilger in LA. They remind me of twins. (Schwarzenegger and Devito). It will be interesting to see Kilger in a Leafs uniform in the next round, if the Leafs make it that far. Some guys have all the tools and lack the drive. Some guys use the tools like tool time. Some guys have a carpenters tools but want to be hairdressers. That's why I like Ribeiro and Locke so much, they use what they have as best they can and find ways to get the job done well. |
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Post by habwest on Apr 22, 2004 14:58:37 GMT -5
"Mostly a PR move (firing Martin) -- the natives are restless." Got to disagree to some extent. Yes making a move was necessary to restore fan confidence and get them to buy tickts next year. On the other hand you can't blame fans for being mad after being beaten by TO 4 times in the playoffs in the last 5 years. I wouldn't spend money if it was just "business as usual", no changes no matter how much the team fails. And getting fans to spend money is a legitimate concern; it is a business. But moving beyond this Martin has had plenty of chances and must be held accountable. He was good for buidling this team up to a point but he's failed to get the most out of all his players and he's failed to get to a Cuip final let alone win one. That includes: - staying too loyal to guys like Bonk who were just floaters when it counted; - staying too loyal to Lalime when it became apparent earlier in the year that he was having real problems with his coinfidence and hence his performance; - not playing a guy like Spezza and developing him. Implied by Muckler as one of the reasons for firing him and a good one; - demanding a cookie cutter approach from his players and apparently smothering their playing personalities and stunting their development as players- maybe suitable for a team with a modicum of talent but not one with a considerable amount of talent. This was one of the reasons that Muckler gave for his firing and I think a valid one. Reportedly at the root of limiting the roles of Spezza and Havlat who were the biggest free spirits; - being too nice to his players, eg not holding them accountable (as Julien does), not using a variety of perhaps slightly nasty techniques on some players who needed it.(Bowman was a master on this, like criticizing players to the media) Certainly the players bear a great deal of responsibility but you can't fire all of them, although no doubt some will go- Bonk, Bondra, others. Muckler bears some responsibility as well, for trades that bore no fruit, and he's undoubtedly covering his *ss in firing Martin, although I'm sure Melnyk had something to do with this. Regardless that doesn't invalidate all the good reasons for letting Martin and most of his assistants go, IMO anyway.  PS- Keenan might just be what this team needs. He's demanding, not afraid to push his players and he's good at developing young talent. The only problem would be the clash of egos with Muckler or Melnyk. I think that Larry R is just too nice a guy. Right now this team doesn't need "nice" - optional but not necessary. And Larry would have to be prepared to be mean if needed and I don't think that's in him. Quinville's name keeps being mentioned but he never had that great of a success with some pretty talented teams did he? Perhaps one of the Detroit assistants- ol' wasisname, the one that didn't get promoted when Bowman left but don't know anything about him. Other suggestions? |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Apr 22, 2004 15:03:44 GMT -5
Melnyk wants to cover his embar*ass*ment. Martin is the sacrificial goat, being as his titled position is a very public one. Firing Martin does not make the team better, nor does it guarantee a superior replacement. But hey, that's not our worry.
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Post by habwest on Apr 22, 2004 15:23:53 GMT -5
"Firing Martin does not make the team better, nor does it guarantee a superior replacement." No, but NOT firing Martin doesn't make the team better either. Indeed, after 9 years one can be pretty sure that the odds are better for improvement if he's replaced with the right kind of qualified coach. I just don't think that Martin is the right kind of coach for this team at this stage in its development. He was great for building the team but for whatever reason he couldn't take it any further. He's not all of the problem but he's definitely a part of the problem. If I was the owner I certainly wouldn't be happy to just keep sailing along hoping that things got better and losing money all the while. Just because Martin is a very nice and talented guy, or because he will likely do very well wherever he lands (can you say Phoenix? would be great spot for him, rebuilding a club with youth) does not mean that he shouldn't be cut loose by Ottawa. If, after 8 years and with all the supposed very good new talent coming on board and with a few FAs like Kovalev brought in, the Habs had lost to the Bruins 4 times and had never advanced to a Cup final what would you think? Would you still want Julien around for a 9th and 10th and 11th, etc year? I sure wouldn't. At least that's the view from this corner of the world.  |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Apr 22, 2004 15:36:54 GMT -5
The Habs will never lose to Boston 4 times in 8 years. The Bruins alone would see to that.
Will Muckler bring in the right guy or the wrong guy? Will Muckler's head be the next to roll? Does the fun ever stop in Canada's capitol?
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Apr 22, 2004 16:38:44 GMT -5
The Habs will never lose to Boston 4 times in 8 years. The Bruins alone would see to that. Will Muckler bring in the right guy or the wrong guy? Will Muckler's head be the next to roll? Does the fun ever stop in Canada's capitol? Will Muckler hire Robinson or Tikhanov? This is like firing Noah because the Ark ran aground. Martin took a lot of weak boards and built one of the best ships in the league. When you have 30 teams and only one winner, it doesn't mean that 29 coaches should be fired. |
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Post by habwest on Apr 22, 2004 16:41:21 GMT -5
"The Habs will never lose to Boston 4 times in 8 years."
You're avoiding the point.
What if they did, or lost to the Leafs, and didn't proceed to the Cup finals, arguably with a team with superior talent overall to the current Habs? (of course excepting goaltending which is a big, but by no means complete, part of the picture)
Would you still want Julien around after 8 years?
I very much doubt it.
Cheers.
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Post by habwest on Apr 22, 2004 16:45:30 GMT -5
"Will Muckler hire Robinson...?"
In one sense I kinda hope not. I mean I do want to see him get an NHL head coaching job if he wants it but from what he's said before I don't think he'd enjoy putting the screws to the players that need it and I'm pretty sure that's what will be expected of him. And I don't think that there will be any honey moon period.
On the other hand maybe he'd be fine doing that in which case I hope that he gets it.
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Post by franko on Apr 22, 2004 20:03:01 GMT -5
Yes making a move was necessary to restore fan confidence and get them to buy tickts next year. On the other hand you can't blame fans for being mad after being beaten by TO 4 times in the playoffs in the last 5 years. I wouldn't spend money if it was just "business as usual", no changes no matter how much the team fails. And getting fans to spend money is a legitimate concern; it is a business. - staying too loyal to Lalime when it became apparent earlier in the year that he was having real problems with his coinfidence and hence his performance; - not playing a guy like Spezza and developing him. Mostly agree. Bottom line: though Martin is a nice guy and a good coach he didn't get the job done. And because he didn't get the job done the natives are restless. But again, he wasn't on the ice to pay the price in front of Belfour or score goals int he three shutouts. NOT firing Martin doesn't make the team better either. Getting a goaltender will. Good, luck, Muckler . . . Hasek's available if you want to put out the $$$ |
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Post by CentreHice on Apr 22, 2004 22:38:55 GMT -5
The Habs will never lose to Boston 4 times in 8 years. The Bruins alone would see to that. |
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Post by Strummerman on Apr 22, 2004 23:46:04 GMT -5
Ok back to my trade at the beginning of the year. I was hooted and hollered at by Ottawa fans. At the time I said if ottawa wanted to win the Cup they should trade Lalime and Spezza to habs for Koivu and Theo. Was I wrong??? The Ottawa fans said no way. Koivu is injury prone and Theo is a 1 year wonder
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Apr 23, 2004 4:08:40 GMT -5
"The Habs will never lose to Boston 4 times in 8 years." You're avoiding the point. What if they did, or lost to the Leafs, and didn't proceed to the Cup finals, arguably with a team with superior talent overall to the current Habs? (of course excepting goaltending which is a big, but by no means complete, part of the picture) Would you still want Julien around after 8 years? I very much doubt it. Cheers. Odds are I wouldn't want some of those players around, no matter how highly touted and hyped they may be. A coach doesn't score goals or stop them. The team on the ice has not delievered under pressure. Is that Martin's fault? Perhaps. But I happen to think that Martin is a better coach than that. I look to the players and seem them coming up short. It's a truism, but it's always easier to fire the coach than it is to fire the players. Who put this club together? Did Martin draft or trade for these guys? Right now, due to various factors, it looks like they have been built for the regular season. To answer the question: I would likely want Julien around. But I might consider jettisoning some players first, then perhaps the guys responsible for saddling Julien with those players. Goes against the traditional way of dealing with the situation, perhaps, but hey, I'm just another clown in the stands. * Thank you very much, John Tortorella: Tortorella did not hide his feelings about Ottawa firing coach Jacques Martin after the Senators were eliminated in seven games by the Maple Leafs.
"I think it's (expletive)," Tortorella said. "I think it's another message that you're letting the players off the hook. I respect the Ottawa organization and I don't want to speak out of turn. But I thought Ottawa outplayed Toronto. ... Make a couple of saves within a few of those games and it may be a different story.
"To me, it's another situation of just saying (to the players), "All right, boys, you're okay. You're off the hook. Come back next year.' That's (expletive)."- www.sptimes.com/2004/04/23/Lightning/Do_Canadiens_have_an_.shtml* And (shudder) thank you Pat Quinn: Quinn defends fired Senators coach
CANADIAN PRESS
The bitter rivalry between the Toronto Maple Leafs and Ottawa Senators didn't keep Leafs coach Pat Quinn from sympathizing with Jacques Martin.
Speaking during a conference call Friday, Quinn came to the fired Martin's defence, questioning whether the Senators had put the blame for their Game 7 loss to the Leafs in the right place.
"To me, that's the ultimate finger point, trying to scapegoat somebody," said Quinn. "This man has done a tremendous job there.
"You can always sit back in the weeds and say you're going to get somebody to get you over the top . . . I'm just real disappointed. He's one heck of a coach. They got beat by our goaltending as much as any factor . . . When you lose your livelihood (on that basis) it's disappointing. Somebody's ego got in the way there. They're trying to look good to the public, I suppose." |
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Post by jkr on Apr 23, 2004 21:11:01 GMT -5
And (shudder) thank you Pat Quinn: Quinn defends fired Senators coach
CANADIAN PRESS
The bitter rivalry between the Toronto Maple Leafs and Ottawa Senators didn't keep Leafs coach Pat Quinn from sympathizing with Jacques Martin.
Speaking during a conference call Friday, Quinn came to the fired Martin's defence, questioning whether the Senators had put the blame for their Game 7 loss to the Leafs in the right place.
"To me, that's the ultimate finger point, trying to scapegoat somebody," said Quinn. "This man has done a tremendous job there.
"You can always sit back in the weeds and say you're going to get somebody to get you over the top . . . I'm just real disappointed. He's one heck of a coach. They got beat by our goaltending as much as any factor . . . When you lose your livelihood (on that basis) it's disappointing. Somebody's ego got in the way there. They're trying to look good to the public, I suppose."At least Quinn was honest & admitted his goaltender won the series. He mentions something about egos getting in the way. I magine he is talking about Eugene Melnyk. |
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