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Post by blny on Jun 10, 2004 10:11:46 GMT -5
I'm surprised that there isn't a thread for this already. Sportsnet's article taken from the CP, has Raycroft as the "obvious" choice. This totally sparks the debate again for me. I don't even consider Raycroft a rookie. He played 20 games in the NHL before this season, including 15 in 2000-01. IMO that precludes him from nomination.
The article also has Ryder's stats incorrect. Nice job by the casual observer that wrote the piece to compile accurate info. The hack stated Ryder had 20g45a65p. Ryder had 25g38a63p. He was tied with with Hunter for goals, but had significantly more assists. Hunter was the hands down leader in +/-.
For skaters to qualify for the Calder they cannot have played more than 40 games or so, right? The NHL is obviously going by the same criteria for goalies, and I think that is wrong. 15 games experience, over the course of part of a season, for a goalie is akin to 40 for a skater in my books.
Raycroft was a known commodity going into the season, whereas Ryder was a total surprise.
The CP has St Louis getting the Hart, Sutter getting the Adams, Niedermeyer getting the Norris, Luongo getting the Vezina, and Richards getting the Byng. I'd pick Andreychuk for the Masterton.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jun 10, 2004 10:39:04 GMT -5
The T.O. based media strikes again???
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jun 10, 2004 10:51:09 GMT -5
I'd pick Andreychuk for the Masterton. I'd pick Souray.  ;D |
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Post by blny on Jun 10, 2004 11:12:29 GMT -5
I'd pick Souray. ;D Let me clarify my stance. I want Souray to be recognized for his achievements, but I think Andreychuk's 22 year struggle to get the Cup will win out. |
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Post by Montrealer on Jun 10, 2004 12:18:33 GMT -5
The rules are the rules. I hate writers who use personal vendettas to decide not to vote for eligible players for rookie awards.
Matsui lost the AL Rookie of the Year award due to two writers not writing him in as a rookie even though he was on the ballot.
Raycroft might be more experienced than Ryder was going into this year, but the same could be said for Europeans who play in the top Euro leagues before coming here. So? You vote for the best rookie based on who is on the ballot, not the best rookie based on whatever criteria you're using in your head.
By that logic, Raycroft probably edges out Ryder. I hate it, because Ryder would have won in any other year, but the rules are the rules.
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Post by blny on Jun 10, 2004 13:23:39 GMT -5
The rules are the rules. I hate writers who use personal vendettas to decide not to vote for eligible players for rookie awards. Matsui lost the AL Rookie of the Year award due to two writers not writing him in as a rookie even though he was on the ballot. Raycroft might be more experienced than Ryder was going into this year, but the same could be said for Europeans who play in the top Euro leagues before coming here. So? You vote for the best rookie based on who is on the ballot, not the best rookie based on whatever criteria you're using in your head. By that logic, Raycroft probably edges out Ryder. I hate it, because Ryder would have won in any other year, but the rules are the rules. There's no vendetta on my part. You're right that you have to vote based on who's officially eligble. I contend that the league should re-evaluate the eligibility. As a voter, Andrew's previous experience at the NHL level over three seasons would lessen the impact of his numbers. He had a fine season, but he was the most prepared you're likely to ever see. As for Euros with pro experience over there, well chalk it up to be the equivalent of AHL experience. Guys, like Ryder, who've garnered experience in lower North American leagues aren't judged for it. Regardless, neither AHL experience, nor Euro experience, fully prepares you for the rigors of the NHL. I'd pick Ryder regardless. For me it's Ryder, Raycroft, then Hunter. Previous experience aside, Raycroft had the better regular season team in front of him. Seeding for the playoffs proves that. There was certainly a greater chance for success in Boston for a rookie than in Montreal. Even Bergeron could have been considered in the running for much of the season. |
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Post by CentreHice on Jun 10, 2004 22:14:23 GMT -5
Has any other player ever won the Calder in Ken Dryden fashion?
He played 6 regular season games in 70-71...then won the Stanley Cup and the Conn Smythe in a 20 game playoff.
The next year he won the Calder (the last Hab to do so...that was also Guy Lafleur's rookie season).
I doubt that will ever be done again....especially by a goaltender.
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jun 10, 2004 23:15:50 GMT -5
Let me clarify my stance. I want Souray to be recognized for his achievements, but I think Andreychuk's 22 year struggle to get the Cup will win out. Aren't the NHL Awards based on the regular season only? Andreychuk's Cup win shouldn't count. edit: Just read that Bryan Berard won the Masterton. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Jun 11, 2004 8:43:38 GMT -5
Hart: 19. Théodore, 14 points Norris: 12. Souray, 12 points Vézina: -- Calder: 2. Ryder, 723 points Selke: 29. Juneau, 7 points 34. Perreault, 5 points 55. Bégin, 1 point Lady Byng: 39. Ryder, 4 points Adams: 7. Julien, 21 points - nhl.com/onthefly/news/2004/06/214226.html |
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Post by blny on Jun 11, 2004 9:53:51 GMT -5
Aren't the NHL Awards based on the regular season only? Andreychuk's Cup win shouldn't count. edit: Just read that Bryan Berard won the Masterton. They don't vote for the Masterton until the Finals (or there abouts). Not sure why, but I did think it would favour Andreychuk. Berard has been through a lot to get to where he is, but winning it now almost seems postumously (sp?). He's been back playing for a couple of years since the eye injury. You'd think he'd have won/been nominated already for it. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Jun 11, 2004 11:57:14 GMT -5
Yanic "Don't Panic" Perreault out-pointing Steve Bégin in the Selke trophy voting. Hell, Perreault even appearing on that list...
...must have been Bob Gainey's morning smile.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2004 21:32:25 GMT -5
We all know who the real rookie of the year was anyway.
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Post by CentreHice on Jun 12, 2004 7:11:01 GMT -5
Hart: 19. Théodore, 14 points Norris: 12. Souray, 12 points Vézina: -- Calder: 2. Ryder, 723 points Selke: 29. Juneau, 7 points 34. Perreault, 5 points 55. Bégin, 1 point Lady Byng: 39. Ryder, 4 points Adams: 7. Julien, 21 points - nhl.com/onthefly/news/2004/06/214226.htmlI notice in the voting that all but the Vezina and Jack Adams trophies have around a total of 105 first place votes cast. Vezina has only 30 and Adams 69. With three 3 people eligible in each category, why the discrepancy? All that aside....very suprised to see Raycroft get 93 first place votes to only 11 for Ryder...and 1 for Hunter. When Bill Watters called it a "lock" for Raycroft earlier in the day, he wasn't kidding. Would have liked to hear them mention that Ryder was voted Rookie of the Year by his peers in The Sporting News...but that wasn't likely to happen on a Leaf station....but boy oh boy...almost daily we hear about McCabe being left off the Team Canada roster.  No Canadian-based team nominee won any hardware this year. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Jun 13, 2004 8:31:20 GMT -5
By The Associated Press
TORONTO (AP) - The 2003-04 All-Star teams announced Thursday:
First Team
Goaltender - Martin Brodeur, New Jersey Devils, 38-26-11, 2.03 GA, .917 SA.
Defensemen - Zdeno Chara, Ottawa Senators, 16-25-41; Scott Niedermayer, New Jersey Devils, 14-40-54.
Forwards - Martin St. Louis, Tampa Bay Lightning, 38-56-94; Joe Sakic, Colorado Avalanche, 33-54-87; Markus Naslund, Vancouver Canucks, 35-49-84.
---
Second Team
Goaltender - Roberto Luongo, Florida Panthers, 25-33-14, 2.43, .931.
Defensemen - Chris Pronger, St. Louis Blues, 14-40-54; Bryan McCabe, Toronto Maple Leafs, 16-37-53.
Forwards - Jarome Iginla, Calgary Flames, 41-32-73; Mats Sundin, Toronto Maple Leafs, 31-44-75; Ilya Kovalchuk, Atlanta Thrashers, 41-46-87.
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Post by CentreHice on Jun 13, 2004 18:57:24 GMT -5
By The Associated Press TORONTO (AP) - The 2003-04 All-Star teams announced Thursday: First Team Goaltender - Martin Brodeur, New Jersey Devils, 38-26-11, 2.03 GA, .917 SA. Defensemen - Zdeno Chara, Ottawa Senators, 16-25-41; Scott Niedermayer, New Jersey Devils, 14-40-54. Forwards - Martin St. Louis, Tampa Bay Lightning, 38-56-94; Joe Sakic, Colorado Avalanche, 33-54-87; Markus Naslund, Vancouver Canucks, 35-49-84. --- Second Team Goaltender - Roberto Luongo, Florida Panthers, 25-33-14, 2.43, .931. Defensemen - Chris Pronger, St. Louis Blues, 14-40-54; Bryan McCabe, Toronto Maple Leafs, 16-37-53. Forwards - Jarome Iginla, Calgary Flames, 41-32-73; Mats Sundin, Toronto Maple Leafs, 31-44-75; Ilya Kovalchuk, Atlanta Thrashers, 41-46-87. I must protest the selection of Mats Sundin as Second Team All-Star Centre. Sundin had good numbers 31-44-75 +11 But.... Brad Richards was better 26-53-79 +14 Robert Lang also had 79 pts...but was only a +4. Joe Thornton had 73 pts and was a +18. I'd say that Richards or Thornton should've got the nod over Sundin....but hey..these selections were made in Toronto...no? I don't like the way Bryan McCabe plays but it's hard to argue with 4th in D scoring (53 pts) and a +22. He deserves it. But....... Chris Pronger's selection surprises me. Pronger 14-40-54 -1 If Chara could make first all-star with 41 pts. and a dazzling +33, consider the following D-men who I think deserved the nod over Pronger. Schneider 14-32-46 +22 Aucoin 13-31-44 +29 Redden 17-26-43 +21 Jonsson 13-29-42 +16 Sopel 10-32-42 +11 All of these guys outscored Chara and were way ahead of Pronger in the =/- . But how would it look if the second in D-scoring didn't make the all-star team? Gee, I don't know...how about the #1 in scoring not making it? Gonchar 58 pts...but a miserable -14. Heavy minus figures also hurt high-scoring Zidlicky, Tarnstrom, and Berard. |
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Post by franko on Jun 13, 2004 19:39:37 GMT -5
Gonchar 58 pts...but a miserable -14. Heavy minus figures also hurt high-scoring Zidlicky, Tarnstrom, and Berard. Hard to be anything but minus on the teams they were on. |
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jun 13, 2004 20:17:27 GMT -5
Chris Pronger's selection surprises me. Pronger 14-40-54 -1 If Chara could make first all-star with 41 pts. and a dazzling +33, consider the following D-men who I think deserved the nod over Pronger. Schneider 14-32-46 +22 Aucoin 13-31-44 +29 Redden 17-26-43 +21 Jonsson 13-29-42 +16 Sopel 10-32-42 +11 All of these guys outscored Chara and were way ahead of Pronger in the =/- . I was also surprised that Pronger made it onto the 2nd All-Star team. IMO, that honour should've gone to Adrian Aucoin instead. Pronger may have had more points than Aucoin, but consider Aucoin's +29 rating and Pronger's -1 rating. I don't know how a defenceman can make it onto the 2nd All-Star team even though he finished the season on the minus side of the ledger. |
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;D
