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Post by BadCompany on Jul 6, 2004 9:26:39 GMT -5
Bad year for the NHL. Bertuzzi indicted, Heately possibly indicted, Perezhoghin possibly indicted... Throw in Theodore's family, and the impending labour dispute, and the only hockey news next year could be coming out of court rooms... www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/thrashers/2004-07-02-heatley-indictment_x.htmReport: Heatley could be indicted soon in fatal wreck[/size] ATLANTA (AP) — Atlanta Thrashers star Dany Heatley could be indicted soon in connection with a wreck that claimed the life of teammate Dan Snyder nine months ago, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported Friday... |
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Post by Montrealer on Jul 6, 2004 9:54:26 GMT -5
From what I've *heard*, if the victim's family is unsupportive of the indictment it's hard to get the accused convicted.
I would imagine if it went to a jury trial and Snyder's family volunteered to take the stand to say that they didn't blame Heatley, the jury would not convict him.
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Post by seventeen on Jul 6, 2004 23:32:15 GMT -5
I disagreed with the Bertuzzi stuff, I disagreed with the Perezhogin decision, and after being mildly chastised for my views, I wholeheartedly agree with indicting Heatley. After all, it was vehicular homicide and Dany was at the wheel, non? Black's black, guys.
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Post by IamCanadiens on Jul 7, 2004 11:55:50 GMT -5
I I wholeheartedly agree with indicting Heatley. After all, it was vehicular homicide and Dany was at the wheel, non? Black's black, guys. It aint exactly so black in my eyes. I didn't have a car until my early 20s so I was always riding shotgun. So many times my friends would do stupid and dangerous Saperlipopette at the wheel but it never stopped me from going back in their vehicles. Had I died in one of the many close calls the last thing I would have wanted was my friend to be punished by the law. The mental mindf**k of killing a friend is punishment enough. Heatley had the money to be in an extremely fast car whereas my friends didn't, otherwise I'm certain one of us would be dead. |
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Post by duster on Jul 7, 2004 14:43:45 GMT -5
After all, it was vehicular homicide and Dany was at the wheel, non? Black's black, guys. I can't imagine what it must be like getting up in the morning or going to sleep at night knowing you killed your good friend in an act of foolishness. The playback and the nightmares will never end for him. A prison of a different sort... |
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Post by blaise on Jul 7, 2004 14:50:13 GMT -5
I disagreed with the Bertuzzi stuff, I disagreed with the Perezhogin decision, and after being mildly chastised for my views, I wholeheartedly agree with indicting Heatley. After all, it was vehicular homicide and Dany was at the wheel, non? Black's black, guys. On what grounds did you disagree with the Bertuzzi decision? You don't think it was a malicious premeditated assault that caused significant harm to Moore? |
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Post by BadCompany on Jul 16, 2004 14:55:19 GMT -5
And its official. Heatley indicted on one count of vehicular homicide, and 5 other counts as well.
Heatley indicted on vehicular homicide[/b]
Associated Press
7/16/2004
ATLANTA (AP) - Thrashers star Dany Heatley was indicted Friday on vehicular homicide and five other charges in the 2003 wreck that claimed the life of his teammate Dan Snyder.
The Fulton County district attorney, Paul Howard, announced the indictment.
Police estimated that Heatley was driving his black Ferrari convertible at 130 km/h when it ran into a brick pillar and iron fence on Sept. 29, 2003.
Snyder, a 25-year-old from Elmira, Ont., died after several days in a coma, and Heatley broke his jaw and tore two ligaments in his knee. The Calgary native returned to playing with the team in January and led Canada to a world championship title in Prague this May.
Heatley, the MVP of the 2003 NHL all-star game, was in Canada on Friday preparing for the upcoming season, the team said. Heatley was named to Canada's team for the World Cup of Hockey, a tournament that runs Aug. 30-Sept. 14.
Authorities said Heatley had consumed some alcohol but was not intoxicated at the time of the wreck.
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Post by blaise on Jul 16, 2004 15:37:40 GMT -5
In my eyes the order of culpability, at least on a moral level, is:
1) Bertuzzi for premeditated assault
2) Perezhogin for spontaneous assault
3) Heatley for exercising bad judgment but not at all wishing for harm to his friend
My take on the outcomes:
1) Bertuzzi will be convicted of assault, although I cannot predict his punishment.
2) Perezhogin probably will not be convicted because there have been numerous similar episodes throughout the history of the NHL without intervention by outside authorities. If he is convicted he will not return to North America voluntarily and he will not be extradited.
3) Heatley will not be convicted because the Snyder family will be friendly witnesses.
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Post by IamCanadiens on Jul 16, 2004 17:02:06 GMT -5
Heatley will not be convicted because the Snyder family will be friendly witnesses. I'm not as optimistic about Heatley's case. I do think that the support of the Snyders will bail him out though. I can realistically see Heater on probation and paying some fines. |
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Post by seventeen on Jul 18, 2004 0:25:59 GMT -5
On what grounds did you disagree with the Bertuzzi decision? You don't think it was a malicious premeditated assault that caused significant harm to Moore? On vacation (they let me out occasionally on weekly passes.) We'll never know, unless we can get into Bertuzzi's head, how premeditated, or spur of the moment it was. Bertuzzi was trying to egg Moore into a fight, and Moore wouldn't bite, so Bertuzzi made him an offer he couldn't refuse. I don't condone it, but I do feel that Moore is being made far too much of a martyr in this case. If the NHL had dealt with the matter appropriately to start with...say, a 10 game suspension to Moore for deliberate attempt to injure Naslund, the whole deal would have blown over. What I was being facetious about was the fact posters who felt Bertuzzi's actions were akin to 1st degree murder and also felt Perezhogin's retaliation was inappropriate,, might feel differently about Heatley. I was just making the point they couldn't have it both ways. |
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Post by Skilly on Jul 20, 2004 19:29:01 GMT -5
I would imagine if it went to a jury trial and Snyder's family volunteered to take the stand to say that they didn't blame Heatley, the jury would not convict him. I don't think the prosecution is going to need Synder's family to get a conviction. The Synder's told the Atlanta autorities that they were okay with them proceeding with charges if they felt justified as long as they did not have to be involved in the case,trial, or testify. Now if they get on the stand, I see them being sympathetic to Heatley. That is why they will not be called. The prosecutor knows the speed limit in the residential area Heatley was driving, the scientists/forensics can determine from the crash the speed of the vehicle upon impact. That will be enough to prove reckless driving. The fact that a death occured as a result of reckless driving will be enough to prove vehicular homicide. I believe one of the charges is vehicular homicid ein the first degree. This will be dropped for second degree because there will be no way of proving Heatley intended to kill someone driving fast, or that Heatley purposely was driving fast with reckless intent. Personally, I believe this will be plea bargained, and Heatley will be slapped with a real heavy fine, community service, and 5 years probation. |
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Post by blaise on Jul 20, 2004 23:10:26 GMT -5
South Dakota congressman Bill Janklow drove past a stop sign without stopping and killed a cyclist. He had a long record of convictions for speeding. Janklow served 3 months in jail, plus the usual probation rigmarole. I don't recall the size of his fine, but it wasn't astronomical.
Heatley had no previous convictions. He is a local sports hero. He himself was injured. Taking everything into consideration, I do not believe Heatley will serve any prison time, and his fine will not be astronomical.
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Post by Andrew on Jul 21, 2004 2:11:31 GMT -5
It aint exactly so black in my eyes. I didn't have a car until my early 20s so I was always riding shotgun. So many times my friends would do stupid and dangerous Saperlipopette at the wheel but it never stopped me from going back in their vehicles. Had I died in one of the many close calls the last thing I would have wanted was my friend to be punished by the law. The mental mindf**k of killing a friend is punishment enough. Heatley had the money to be in an extremely fast car whereas my friends didn't, otherwise I'm certain one of us would be dead. Well said. Heatley intended no harm, and Snyder would wish no for punishment. He made a dumb mistake that any young teen or adult could have. For that he deserves to go to jail? I can't think of one positive thing that would result in Healey going to jail - what is the purpose? Locking him up with a bunch of felons will ruin his life - not teach him a lesson, or make the streets a safer place. Kids will still die in horrific car crashes. What kind of messed up justice system spends its resources prosecuting such an accident in the place of violent offenders. |
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Post by Rimmer on Jul 21, 2004 4:41:39 GMT -5
I can't think of one positive thing that would result in Healey going to jail - what is the purpose? to discourage other kids/young men of doing the same (reckless driving and speeding)? besides, if the law says he should serve time in jail for his offence, then that's how it should be, regardless of the fact that he's a world class hockey player. R. |
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Post by Skilly on Jul 21, 2004 9:27:42 GMT -5
South Dakota congressman Bill Janklow drove past a stop sign without stopping and killed a cyclist. He had a long record of convictions for speeding. Janklow served 3 months in jail, plus the usual probation rigmarole. I don't recall the size of his fine, but it wasn't astronomical. Heatley had no previous convictions. He is a local sports hero. He himself was injured. Taking everything into consideration, I do not believe Heatley will serve any prison time, and his fine will not be astronomical. Hefty fines are relative. Martha Stewart get hit with $30,000. I say its hefty, to Martha it is pocket change. I'd say Heatley will pay about $50,000, give or take $10,000. We all know this is a witch hunt because the DA screwed up when he went after Ray Lewis (after which Lewis had a dream season). I believe the judge/jury will recognize this, (if it goes to trial which I feel it won't). So maybe Heatley wins the Art Ross when hockey statrs up again. And if he is hit with jail time. Well he would have that served by the time the CBA is settled away and it won't affect his career that much. He wouldn't get more than a year. |
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Post by Andrew on Jul 21, 2004 11:44:01 GMT -5
to discourage other kids/young men of doing the same (reckless driving and speeding)? That would be a positive effect, though I don't agree that it would have such an effect. Kids will still die in horrific crashes. I would think that having him miss a season of hockey while visiting schools and talking to kids would have a far more positive influence. besides, if the law says he should serve time in jail for his offence, then that's how it should be, regardless of the fact that he's a world class hockey player. R. My argument would be the same regardless of his occupation. I'm not saying that he should get off because he's a world class hockey player, but because his offence doesn't warrant jail time. What if the law said he should be executed for his offence. Would you agree with that simply because it's the law? |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 21, 2004 18:53:05 GMT -5
How many of us have had a couple of drinks when we were in our teens and drove our cars too fast?
The difference is we drove old Fords instead of Ferrari's and didn't get caught in a serious accident. If we did have an accident the DA wasn't watched by thousands of journalists and probably let the offense slide with a suspended licence.
Who wouldn't have sold some stock like Martha Stewart if we were told it was going to drop the next day? She is a celeb whereas we are HabsRUS posters.
Heatley was wrong and should be punished. He shouldn't get off because he is a hockey player and he shouldn't be trreated more harshly because of his fame. A stiff fine, loss of license for (hmmmmm....) six months, suspended sentence, probation, harsh warning. I'm sure he's learned his lesson and won't do it again.
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Post by PTH on Jul 21, 2004 20:36:48 GMT -5
That would be a positive effect, though I don't agree that it would have such an effect. Kids will still die in horrific crashes. But still, shouldn't we make it clear that actions have consequences ? What kind of a message does it send when he's back out there with no strings - "speeding is bad, but you won't be punished anyhow". Well, if something is illegal to me we should always have the possibility of punishment backing up the law, and we've chosen jail as punishment. You're asking the wrong question IMO - the if what he did is against the law, then he must be punished. The form of the punishment is another matter. In this case, by acting like a jackass he killed someone. Seems like a clear message through a jail sentence would be in the best interests of everyone, as a message that no one can kill people without consequences, even by accident. |
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Post by Andrew on Jul 21, 2004 20:54:14 GMT -5
But still, shouldn't we make it clear that actions have consequences ? What kind of a message does it send when he's back out there with no strings - "speeding is bad, but you won't be punished anyhow". Well, if something is illegal to me we should always have the possibility of punishment backing up the law, and we've chosen jail as punishment. You're asking the wrong question IMO - the if what he did is against the law, then he must be punished. The form of the punishment is another matter. In this case, by acting like a jackass he killed someone. Seems like a clear message through a jail sentence would be in the best interests of everyone, as a message that no one can kill people without consequences, even by accident. I do think it's important that he not be allowed to walk without consequence - there is a lesson to be taught. I don't, however, think that he should be treated as a felon and jailed alongside violent offenders. Take away the most productive years of his life and house him with criminals and where will he be when he gets out. There are more productive ways of punishing him. |
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Post by seventeen on Jul 21, 2004 23:53:35 GMT -5
I do think it's important that he not be allowed to walk without consequence - there is a lesson to be taught. I don't, however, think that he should be treated as a felon and jailed alongside violent offenders. Take away the most productive years of his life and house him with criminals and where will he be when he gets out. There are more productive ways of punishing him. Would you agree that the same sort of 'punishment' should be meted out to Bertuzzi and Perezhogin? |
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Post by Andrew on Jul 22, 2004 2:18:27 GMT -5
Would you agree that the same sort of 'punishment' should be meted out to Bertuzzi and Perezhogin? I don't think jail is the answer for them either. They're working in an environment where emotions run high, everything moves extremely fast, and violence is part of the game. They were out of line, but I don't think their actions were criminal. Having each miss a year of hockey is enough punishment for me. Having them serve their communities would be more constructive than jail. My beef is with the NHL's treatment of violence. They need to take drastic steps to protect their players, or these incidents will continue. Head injuries have become an epidemic that could be controlled with strictly enforced penalties for high sticking and shots to the head. |
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Post by Rimmer on Jul 22, 2004 3:11:01 GMT -5
That would be a positive effect, though I don't agree that it would have such an effect. there really is no way of knowing it, but I believe if the punishment was severe enough, it could serve as a warning to at least a couple of kids which could mean a few more lives spared. again, there's no way of knowing if it's true. also, as PTH said: "What kind of a message does it send when he's back out there with no strings - "speeding is bad, but you won't be punished anyhow"." well, there we disagree. when you sit behind the wheel, you take upon yourself the responsibility not only for your life but also for the lives of others. while accidents can happen even if you are careful and follow all regulations, Heatley acted irresponsibly by disregarding the rules and thus caused a serious accident resulting in a death of a young man. no, because I don't believe in capital punishment. serving jail time, even if it's for a very short period of time, i would be a fair punishment for his offense. IMO, of course. R. |
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Post by LoupDogg on Jul 22, 2004 13:45:12 GMT -5
I have some problems with the assertion that "we" chose prison as a punishment. I know PTH speaks french, therefore I would suggest him to read "Surveiller et punir", by Michel Foucault. You might want to change your mind after reading that book. For anyone else look for a translatin. It really is excellent.
So, is jail time appropriate for any type of crime. I say no. What we are looking for, in our laws, is to prevent crimes and punish offences. I think the punishment part has been served in this case. Seeing a good friend die next to you is bad enough. Having a country looking at your misery is bad too. I'm sure heatley have remorses every time he thinks about his conduct.
As for the "preventing crime" part, I would also suggest the talks in schools and communautary work.
Laws are laws, but we still have to look for more justice, IMO.
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Post by blaise on Jul 22, 2004 16:18:03 GMT -5
I have some problems with the assertion that "we" chose prison as a punishment. I know PTH speaks french, therefore I would suggest him to read "Surveiller et punir", by Michel Foucault. You might want to change your mind after reading that book. For anyone else look for a translatin. It really is excellent. So, is jail time appropriate for any type of crime. I say no. What we are looking for, in our laws, is to prevent crimes and punish offences. I think the punishment part has been served in this case. Seeing a good friend die next to you is bad enough. Having a country looking at your misery is bad too. I'm sure heatley have remorses every time he thinks about his conduct. As for the "preventing crime" part, I would also suggest the talks in schools and communautary work. Laws are laws, but we still have to look for more justice, IMO. Not to mention the surgery and the time he spent recuperating. |
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Post by Skilly on Jul 22, 2004 17:42:42 GMT -5
well, there we disagree. when you sit behind the wheel, you take upon yourself the responsibility not only for your life but also for the lives of others. while accidents can happen even if you are careful and follow all regulations, Heatley acted irresponsibly by disregarding the rules and thus caused a serious accident resulting in a death of a young man. The problem I have with it is the charges. Heatley was not intoxicated, he was driving, presumably, at a high speed. We might find out he swerved to avoid something, or whatever, but let's stick to the facts. No one knows yet how fast he was driving. Even if he was driving too fast, it is vehicular homicide in the second degree, a MISDEMEANOR. They are charging him with vehicular homicide in the first degree, a FELONY. To me that implies he intended, planned to drive too fast and purposely killed someone in the process. That is insane. He as you put it, accidentally killed someone, in a reckless manner. Both Misdemeanors. That means no jail time. To take it to another level. A few years ago, in Canada we changed the law with regards to vehicular homicide while driving under the influence. It is now an automatic life sentence (as it should be). But in 1997, the same offense was only punishable with 2-3 years confinement. I am not highly familar with US law, but in Canada, his punishement would not be severe and the US DA in Atlanta is going after him like he is a repeat offender and deserves 12 years. It is a political witch-hunt, and serves as another reason why DA's should not be elected, but hired by the county. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 22, 2004 19:29:23 GMT -5
The problem I have with it is the charges. Heatley was not intoxicated, he was driving, presumably, at a high speed. We might find out he swerved to avoid something, or whatever, but let's stick to the facts. No one knows yet how fast he was driving. Even if he was driving too fast, it is vehicular homicide in the second degree, a MISDEMEANOR. They are charging him with vehicular homicide in the first degree, a FELONY. To me that implies he intended, planned to drive too fast and purposely killed someone in the process. That is insane. He as you put it, accidentally killed someone, in a reckless manner. Both Misdemeanors. That means no jail time. To take it to another level. A few years ago, in Canada we changed the law with regards to vehicular homicide while driving under the influence. It is now an automatic life sentence (as it should be). But in 1997, the same offense was only punishable with 2-3 years confinement. I am not highly familar with US law, but in Canada, his punishement would not be severe and the US DA in Atlanta is going after him like he is a repeat offender and deserves 12 years. It is a political witch-hunt, and serves as another reason why DA's should not be elected, but hired by the county. Heatley had an accicent! It was accidental, unfortunate. It's not like he deliberately hired someone to kill his agent. He injured himself and was a victim too. He did something he shouldn't have and already regrets it. Bertuzzi had an accident on the ice where violence is integral and accepted to a much greater degree than on the street. He did something he shouldn't have and he already regrets it. Perezhogin was involved in an accident. He was attacked and struck out in anger and self defense. He struck out in a manner he shouldn't have and he regrets it. There have to be more important issues facing our overcrowded criminal system than this? Next thing will be Martha Stewart accusing Kobe Bryant of making unwarrented advances on her? |
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Post by LoupDogg on Jul 23, 2004 7:57:12 GMT -5
Heatley had an accicent! It was accidental, unfortunate. It's not like he deliberately hired someone to kill his agent. He injured himself and was a victim too. He did something he shouldn't have and already regrets it. Bertuzzi had an accident on the ice where violence is integral and accepted to a much greater degree than on the street. He did something he shouldn't have and he already regrets it. Perezhogin was involved in an accident. He was attacked and struck out in anger and self defense. He struck out in a manner he shouldn't have and he regrets it. There have to be more important issues facing our overcrowded criminal system than this? Next thing will be Martha Stewart accusing Kobe Bryant of making unwarrented advances on her? Bertuzzi and Perez didn't have accidents. Place responsability where it belongs. Sure, some form of violence is more tolerated on a hockey ring than on the streets. That's why there never was a trial for a fight. But in these two cases, they could have killed the other player. That's more severe. And they were, or should have been, conscious of that fact. |
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Post by franko on Jul 23, 2004 8:41:48 GMT -5
I have some problems with the assertion that "we" chose prison as a punishment. I know PTH speaks french, therefore I would suggest him to read "Surveiller et punir", by Michel Foucault. You might want to change your mind after reading that book. For anyone else look for a translatin. It really is excellent. So, is jail time appropriate for any type of crime. I say no. What we are looking for, in our laws, is to prevent crimes and punish offences. I think the punishment part has been served in this case. Seeing a good friend die next to you is bad enough. Having a country looking at your misery is bad too. I'm sure heatley have remorses every time he thinks about his conduct. As for the "preventing crime" part, I would also suggest the talks in schools and communautary work. Laws are laws, but we still have to look for more justice, IMO. I think this may be may be may be another Quebec/TROC difference (from PTH's assertions). Especially in Alberta, but eslewhere as well, punishment (ie retribution) is the desired norm. But justice is not always served through revenge and suffering. Will Heatley be rehabilitated by jail time, or would as has been suggested community service better serve? I think so. Not that he ishould get away with an "oops", but let's remember: he is guilty of the results of stupidity (and stupidity is not a crime). |
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Post by Skilly on Jul 23, 2004 10:01:27 GMT -5
Bertuzzi and Perez didn't have accidents. Place responsability where it belongs. Sure, some form of violence is more tolerated on a hockey ring than on the streets. That's why there never was a trial for a fight. But in these two cases, they could have killed the other player. That's more severe. And they were, or should have been, conscious of that fact. Stafford could have easily killed Perezhogin as well. Why no charges against him? Moore could have easily killed Naslund with an elbow to the temple. Why no charges against him? If you are going to charge Bertuzzi with aggrevated assault, and Perezhogin with assault with a weapon then shouldn't the other two parties also be charged? Whether you connect when you swing the stick or not it is still an attempt to assault, and is an offense. Stafford actually connected, therefore I do not see why he gets away scott-free. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 23, 2004 11:32:08 GMT -5
Stafford could have easily killed Perezhogin as well. Why no charges against him? Moore could have easily killed Naslund with an elbow to the temple. Why no charges against him? If you are going to charge Bertuzzi with aggrevated assault, and Perezhogin with assault with a weapon then shouldn't the other two parties also be charged? Whether you connect when you swing the stick or not it is still an attempt to assault, and is an offense. Stafford actually connected, therefore I do not see why he gets away scott-free. You are right Skilly. That is why I call it an accident. Yes Bertuzzi punched a player, but the result, breaking of his neck was an accident. Players are punched almost every game. Broken necks are accidental. |
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