CBA discussions.

[Rimmer]

a nice article from Hockey's Future explaining how the current CBA relates to prospects and their rights


The NHL Collective Bargaining Agreement and prospect retention: Part I

Written by Dave Rainer on 07/27/2004

Although the current National Hockey League Collective Bargaining Agreement is expiring in September, there are some aspects of it that will likely be carried over into the next version strictly out of necessity. Foremost of these are the various clauses that regulate the distribution of new talent to the member franchises and provide a means to retain the players selected in the Entry Draft. Such clauses are absolutely essential to the financial stability of some organizations and are lobbied for and closely analyzed by these organizations.

While the debate rages over a possible salary cap in whatever form the new CBA will take, sections impacting the Entry Draft, entry-level compensation and the reserve system are in some respects just as important for the stability of the league. Although fans often discuss specific provisions and how they affects their favorite players or team, few understand the underlying reasons for these provisions and precisely how they work. Below is a crash course in the CBA as it relates to prospects.

--the article--

R.

[blny]

Rimmer said:

a nice article from Hockey's Future explaining how the current CBA relates to prospects and their rights


The NHL Collective Bargaining Agreement and prospect retention: Part I

Written by Dave Rainer on 07/27/2004

Although the current National Hockey League Collective Bargaining Agreement is expiring in September, there are some aspects of it that will likely be carried over into the next version strictly out of necessity. Foremost of these are the various clauses that regulate the distribution of new talent to the member franchises and provide a means to retain the players selected in the Entry Draft. Such clauses are absolutely essential to the financial stability of some organizations and are lobbied for and closely analyzed by these organizations.

While the debate rages over a possible salary cap in whatever form the new CBA will take, sections impacting the Entry Draft, entry-level compensation and the reserve system are in some respects just as important for the stability of the league. Although fans often discuss specific provisions and how they affects their favorite players or team, few understand the underlying reasons for these provisions and precisely how they work. Below is a crash course in the CBA as it relates to prospects.

--the article--

R.

Too funny. Saw this article last night, and thought about posting a thread on it. Glad I checked here first. It is an interesting read, particularly the part on Reserves and the Van Ryn business.

[Rimmer]

BLNY said:

Too funny. Saw this article last night, and thought about posting a thread on it. Glad I checked here first. It is an interesting read, particularly the part on Reserves and the Van Ryn business.

I agree. I have never heard of ”Van Ryn Loophole” before.

btw, you can post Part II when it comes out. I'll be on vacation anyway .

R.

[blny]

Rimmer said:

I agree. I have never heard of ”Van Ryn Loophole” before.

btw, you can post Part II when it comes out. I'll be on vacation anyway .

R.

I'll do my best to spot it the second it comes out.

[Rimmer]

an interesting take on the new CBA matter:

Have no fear, NHL will play


By MIKE ULMER -- Toronto Sun
NHLPA head Bob Goodenow is huffing.

NHL commissioner Gary Bettman is puffing.

Both of them are bluffing.

That's the take from Caroll Carl, a Gatineau-based labour negotiator who has conducted more than 200 contract negotiations over 28 years.

--the article--

R.

[blny]

Rimmer said:

an interesting take on the new CBA matter:

Have no fear, NHL will play


By MIKE ULMER -- Toronto Sun
NHLPA head Bob Goodenow is huffing.

NHL commissioner Gary Bettman is puffing.

Both of them are bluffing.

That's the take from Caroll Carl, a Gatineau-based labour negotiator who has conducted more than 200 contract negotiations over 28 years.

--the article--

R.

I saw that story before. Not really a revelation, but does put both sides into perspective. One could easily argue that the players will lose more than the owners. The comments of Carl appear to back that up somewhat. I do think that Carl is a little cavalier with the notion that the owners don't really mind losing money. These guys didn't get where they are by settling for losses. It might be a ego thing ("Hey look at me, I own a sports team!"). However, their egos are fed by earning money too.

Here's how I think it will go down. All major points, excluding a cap and all its particulars, will be agreed upon. The owners will eventually cave, likely after a couple of months without hockey. Upon return the owners will claim a modest victory in that the lockout helped to curb the escalation of salaries. I expect a return to the ice sometime after Christmas, if things aren't settled before camps open.

[drkcloud]

Watching all these 1 yr contracts, i would say that the owners are planning definitely not to have hockey next year and are trying to maintain players rights with no intention of the salary getting paid.

To me, Pronger's signing at 9.5 mil illustrates this point.

[BadCompany]

And so the questions start...

Why do owners need salary cap?[/b]

Recchi's new contract makes no sense. If the Penguins have money to throw around, so do other NHL teams[/i]

KARA YORIO
Sporting News

Saturday, July 31, 2004

CREDIT: MARK LENNIHAN, AP

Mark Recchi signed a three-year deal worth a possible $9 million U.S. with the Pittsburgh Penguins, a team that supposedly can't compete and must sell its best players.

I've given it time. I've tried to figure it out. I've weighed the pros and cons. And now, with weeks of this behind me, I can say officially it makes no sense.

Did the Pittsburgh Penguins really sign Mark Recchi to a three-year deal worth a possible $9 million U.S. ($3 million for the first two seasons and an option for the third)? The Penguins, who for seasons have been giving away players to cut payroll? The Penguins, who are the small-market model that is supposed to represent how unfair the league's system is? So the New York Rangers are standing idly by, and the Penguins make a play for the 36-year-old Recchi?

And we're supposed to understand the struggles of the owners? We're supposed to side with a salary cap or at least a payroll-restrictive system?

Let's take a step back for a second. Recchi, a former Canadien, might be 36, but he is a contributor. He led the Philadelphia Flyers with 75 points and 49 assists last season. He has a history with the Penguins - as a fourth-round pick of the Pens in 1988. He led the team in scoring in the Stanley Cup championship 1990-91 season. He has a relationship with Mario Lemieux. Recchi can be a veteran voice and professional presence for a ridiculously young roster. He will help the Penguins on the ice.

That's all great, but this is a team that doesn't have a recent history of basing decisions on improving the on-ice product. Repeatedly, we're told the Penguins just can't compete, so they must sell off their best players and bring up the rear in the standings. They need a new arena, and they need a new collective agreement.

Oh, really? Then how is it they are able to sign anyone for

$3 million a year in this summer of unknown and indecision? Recchi took a $2-million pay cut to return to the Penguins, but he would have had to take a

$3.5-million cut for his signing not to raise eyebrows with players and agents.

If the Penguins can afford to sign a player in his final few seasons for that much money, the money must be out there in places such as New York, Dallas, Detroit and Colorado. Heck, if the Penguins can afford to dish out multimillion-dollar, multiyear deals, there must be money everywhere.

A month into the free-agent period, everything has moved almost as expected. The prime, big-name free agents still are without deals - with the exception of goaltender Dominik Hasek, who took a huge pay cut to sign an incentive-based deal with the Ottawa Senators. The majority of free agents signed have taken pay cuts. A record high 67 players filed for arbitration, through which a substantial raise is still possible. Player movement has been slow as backup plans get put in place for a September without training camps.

The only unexpected twist has been Recchi's substantial contract with the Penguins, who are interested in more free agents, including Alexei Kovalev and Alexei Zhamnov - neither of whom is likely to come cheap.

The Penguins are going to become players in the free-agent market?

That's exactly what they supposedly can't do. Their plight is exactly why a lockout supposedly is needed to achieve a new financial system in the league. The Penguins' inability to compete is why we're supposed to believe there is no competitive balance and no way David can bring down Goliath.

I have no problem with the Recchi decision in a purely hockey world, but for years the Penguins haven't been able to make decisions purely about hockey. That's what we are supposed to believe.

After a lot of thought, I'm no longer a believer.

[blny]

Here is the second part of the CBA article that Rimmer posted the other day. It goes on to discuss enrty level contracts as they pertain to the CBA, and there is some information on RFA's.

[BadCompany]

Four hours of fruitless "discussion" yesterday. No progress. Owners and players scheduled to meet again August 17th.

Yay.

On a side note, a recent Canadian poll says 83% of respondants back the owners in the current dispute, and would be willing to see no hockey for at least half a year, if it means small market teams could be competitive.

[blny]

What both sides fail to admit is there is other hockey out there. The NHL is not the be all, and end all. It's the best league in the world, yeah, but it isn't the only one.

Myself, I have no NHL to see on a regular basis. I can only hope to see a game in person every few years. Still, I have CHL games to fill the void. My very own Mooseheads play to near sell out crowds 15 minutes away. A family of four can go, grab a snack, and park for the cost of one good seat at an NHL game.

Many of the NHL cities have hockey alternatives. Whether it's the AHL, IHL, CHL, college, or something else, there is hockey out there for hockey fans.

Sure, we'll miss watching our heroes perform every other night, but we can revel in the chance to watch future stars at a time when it was affordable to see them live.

[blny]

Say, did anyone notice the spelling blunder in the title of this thread? I'm just seeing it now. ;D

[seventeen]

BLNY said:

Say, did anyone notice the spelling blunder in the title of this thread? I'm just seeing it now. ;D

What speling blundr?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

t's fxd.

[BadCompany]

Instead of spending 4 hours in a meeting disagreeing with each other, the NHLPA and NHL yesterday spent over 5 hours disagreeing with each other.

I guess that's progress.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

BadCompany said:

Instead of spending 4 hours in a meeting disagreeing with each other, the NHLPA and NHL yesterday spent over 5 hours disagreeing with each other.

I guess that's progress.

What happened most recently is always better than what happened previously.

[oldhabsfan]

[quote author=BadCompany

Recchi's new contract makes no sense. If the Penguins have money to throw around, so do other NHL teams[/i]

[/quote]


The one possible explanation I can think of is that Mario Lemieux wants to make his team valuable to someone who either would want to move it, or thinks he has some bright ideas for making it work in Pittsburgh.

[CentreHice]

Here's a good laugh.

Listening to the Jeff Marek Show on MOJO on Friday, August 27th, and he said, "What about the rumours that the owners will start a new league? Bill Watters broke that story earlier today."

I almost fell out of my car. HabsRus posters, and most-likely all other non-Leaf posting boards, have been speculating on that subject as early as March to my recollection.

Are these Leafers full of themselves or what?

"Breaking story from Bill Watters....maybe some players will play in Europe next season."

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Just to recap:

From the perspective of a majority of the owners, the CBA that now has begun its death rattle is worse than worthless, it's a hangman's noose, given that a league-commissioned audit of the 2002-03 season detailed league-wide losses approaching $300 million. One source, familiar with the specifics of the audit, said earlier this week that at least 10 teams, one-third of the league, could be forced to close their doors if the current CBA were renewed or its underpinnings used as the basis of a new agreement.

From the players' perspective, the same document has been the underlying tool that has helped their average wage more than treble, from $560,000 to $1.8 million, in less than 10 years. To tear it up, for the sake of accepting a new CBA pegged on a salary cap akin to the NBA or NFL, they believe is senseless and sacrilege.

*

"If there is a work stoppage, lockout or strike -- whatever you want to call it," mused Brian Burke, the former Vancouver Canucks general manager who is now a CBC broadcast analyst, "the owners will lose $240 million instead of the $300 million they'd lose [over the course of a season]. The players will lose $1.2 billion if they don't play."

League figures, some of which remain contested by the PA, show gross revenues of approximately $2 billion. According to the audit on the 2002-03 season, player salaries and benefits siphon off 75 percent, roughly $1.5 billion, a percentage that led the audit's overseer, former SEC chairman Arthur Levitt, to say that the NHL "is on a treadmill to obscurity."

"That's the way this league is going," Levitt said upon making the audit public Feb. 12. "So something has got to change. I can tell you . . . from an investment point of view, it's a dumb investment and they have got a serious problem."

According to one club owner, again speaking on the condition of anonymity, some of the clubs' newer owners -- he named Nashville, Atlanta, and Buffalo -- bought in with the inherent understanding that the current CBA would be replaced by a cap-based system, guaranteeing profits and, perhaps of greater importance, increases in franchise equity.

*

The union last offered up a resolution at the end of last summer, a three-tiered plan that called for an immediate five percent rollback in player salaries, drastic cutbacks in the Entry Level System that governs what draft picks can earn their first three years in the league, and a luxury tax.

The PA estimated the first-year annual savings of those three initiatives to be in excess of $300 million, what would represent about a 20 percent discount on a $1.5 billion pay-and-benefits package.

NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, who leaves most of the negotiating to top lieutenant Bill Daly, repeatedly has refuted that he told the union in October, in response to its offer, that the league had to have a cap-based CBA with a ceiling of $31 million per team.

According to one league source, however, Bettman made it clear that the league could afford about $930 million in player wages and benefits, which works out to, no surprise, $31 million per team.

- www.boston.com/sports/hockey/articles/2004/08/26/an_icy_standoff_in_labor_talks/

[roke]

This is an interesting website about the NBA's CBA and the "salary cap" (which is more like a luxury tax) I believe Bettman proably would have proposed a system similar to this because he did work to the NBA. I've only read about 1/3 of it so far but the system is an interesting concept.


members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#1

[mic]

slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Ottawa/2004/09/08/620507.html

While players who were in the NHL for more than 50 games weren't originally allowed to be assigned to the minors, those rules were waived in a memo from league VP Bill Daly last month. That means all three are eligible to be sent down.

Also :

Sources say the NHLPA isn't going to block young players like Spezza, Columbus centre Rick Nash or Florida defenceman Jay Bouwmeester from being sent to the AHL.

They're leaving the final decisions up to the individual players.

If this report is true (I don't know how serious the Ottawa Sun is and I'm not too confident in Garrioch), who will the Habs send to Hamilton ? It probably doesn't affect the negociations much, as both the NHL and the NHLPA agreed on this, but I wonder who will be sent down and who will accept it.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

mic said:

If this report is true (I don't know how serious the Ottawa Sun is and I'm not too confident in Garrioch), who will the Habs send to Hamilton ? It probably doesn't affect the negociations much, as both the NHL and the NHLPA agreed on this, but I wonder who will be sent down and who will accept it.

Ryder (provided he's signed of course), Komisarek, Dagenais, and maybe even Ribeiro.

[blaise]

The outlook for starting the season looks bleak. The NHL rejected the NHLPA's latest offer today and said its concessions were even more diluted than those of the old offer.

[Andrew]

Blaise said:

The outlook for starting the season looks bleak. The NHL rejected the NHLPA's latest offer today and said its concessions were even more diluted than those of the old offer.

It's pretty clear that both sides view a lockout as leverage in getting what they want.

If they were serious about avoiding a lockout, both sides would have locked themselves in a room with 3rd party mediators months ago.

Instead they've gotten together for 4 hour sessions once every few weeks this summer. Only recently have they increased the frequency of meetings - but only to go over each teams financials 1 at a time.

Proposals from each side have conceded very little, serving to only make them look as though they want a resolution.

[CentreHice]

Reports are that Bill Daly and the NHL brass called today's NHLPA offer...."a step backward".

Bill Daly....hope he's not as bumbling as his sound-alike's (Bill Daily) TV characters: Major Healey (I Dream of Jeannie) and Howard Borden (The Bob Newhart Show).

Don't know why I posted this ridiculous reference. No hockey tonight, I guess.

Staying with this theme: If they ever made a movie about the NHL...who would you cast as Gary Bettman?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

CentreHice said:

Reports are that Bill Daly and the NHL brass called today's NHLPA offer...."a step backward".

Bill Daly....hope he's not as bumbling as his sound-alike's (Bill Daily) TV characters: Major Healey (I Dream of Jeannie) and Howard Borden (The Bob Newhart Show).

Ah, The Bob Newhart Show. Classic TV.

Don't know why I posted this ridiculous reference. No hockey tonight, I guess.

Kovalev made you do it.

Staying with this theme: If they ever made a movie about the NHL...who would you cast as Gary Bettman?

Bob Crane.

[blaise]

CentreHice said:

Reports are that Bill Daly and the NHL brass called today's NHLPA offer...."a step backward".

Bill Daly....hope he's not as bumbling as his sound-alike's (Bill Daily) TV characters: Major Healey (I Dream of Jeannie) and Howard Borden (The Bob Newhart Show).

Don't know why I posted this ridiculous reference. No hockey tonight, I guess.

Staying with this theme: If they ever made a movie about the NHL...who would you cast as Gary Bettman?

Woody Allen

[Willie Dog]

CentreHice said:

If they ever made a movie about the NHL...who would you cast as Gary Bettman?

How about
1. Don Knotts
2. The scarecrow from wizard of OZ
3. Norman Fell

[CentreHice]

Woody Allen (as Gary Bettman):

I don't know what's wrong...this whole negotiation thing. I have to tell you straight off...I've never been a good negotiator...I remember in kindergarten, this kid wanted some of my paste....and I said, "No...get your own snack."

Anyway, the players are like my ex-wives...they want everything, give up nothing, and for all I know...they're lousy in bed too.

[franko]

CentreHice said:

If they ever made a movie about the NHL...who would you cast as Gary Bettman?

Homer Simpson