Will new NHL mean new rosters?

[franko]

Mr. said:

Asked to react to the Sun story that a number of agents are prepared to go to court to get their clients declared unrestricted free agents if there's no CBA in place by July 1, Daly told the Sun their status remains undecided.

And he indicated any agent who believes players taken in the 2003 draft that have not signed by June 1 will go back in the draft -- or NHLers who need qualifying offers by July 1 will become free agents -- is "misinformed."

Still, sources say this is a hot-button issue because the NHL isn't sure where it would stand legally if there's no CBA in place and the agents decide to go to court to get their clients declared unrestricted free agents.

If the agents were successful in court, the Senators' Marian Hossa, Martin Havlat and Jason Spezza, along with Boston's Joe Thornton, Rick Nash of Columbus and Atlanta's Dany Heatley would be among a group of high-profile unrestricted free agents.

Hmmm . . . free agents. Which means that they can be signed at any agreed-upon salary. And if (when?) the salary toque comes into force, the salary may not be agreeable, but it will be available. And the lower the toque is, the lower the salary.

Unless, of course, the owners are idiots.

Oh.

[Cranky]

What the agents wet dream.....is to have their players declared free agents by the courts and then claim that the courts have pre-empted the CBA. It's NOT legal.

I guess I have to explain something......

A terms and conditions of a collective bargaining agreement do NOT disappear after it's expiration. Anything agreed to REMAINS in effect until changes are NEGOTIATED between the parties.

That's the LAW.

An employer bound by the collective bargaining agreement can NOT negotiate with any employees that are bound or will be bound by that agreement.

That's the LAW.

The NHL is the "multi-employer bargaining agent" for the ALL THE NHL TEAMS therefore NO team can act independently either with the union or with a member of the union. FUTURE members of the union are bound by the terms BELOW.

That's the LAW.

ALL employees entering a workplace are bound by a collective agreement are subject and bound to ALL the terms and conditions of that collective agreement.

That's the LAW.

The NHLPA knows this. Daly knows this. I know this (because I am a slave driving employer :. Now we all know this.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

franko said:

Hmmm . . . free agents. Which means that they can be signed at any agreed-upon salary. And if (when?) the salary toque comes into force, the salary may not be agreeable, but it will be available. And the lower the toque is, the lower the salary.

Unless, of course, the owners are idiots.

Oh.

I doubt that we'll see the end of the "Help me before I spend again!" syndrome. It hasn't vanished from the three major sports.

*

Man to man is so unjust, children:
Ya don't know who to trust.
Your worst enemy could be your best friend,
And your best friend your worse enemy.

Some will eat and drink with you,
Then behind them su-su 'pon you.
Only your friend know your secrets,
So only he could reveal it.
And who the cap fit, let them wear it!
Who the cap fit, let them wear it!

[Cranky]

franko said:

Hmmm . . . free agents. Which means that they can be signed at any agreed-upon salary. And if (when?) the salary toque comes into force, the salary may not be agreeable, but it will be available. And the lower the toque is, the lower the salary.

Unless, of course, the owners are idiots.

Oh.

NO SIR! Mercenaries and their hyenas can not change the PREVIOUS AGREED TO TERMS OF THE AGREEMENT. The old CBA terms do NOT expire at the convinience of the NHLPA and it's mercenaries. They can NOT pick and chose what they want or what suits them. Nor can ANY NHL team sign players. See above post.

Yes, I know, I am taking the all fun out of the speculation.....

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. Next...

[Cranky]

M. said:

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. Next...

LOL! I'm just a joy at parties too!

"Thanks for the drink........by the way, is the beverage that you are serving of a known alcoholic content? If not, do you have a breadth analyzer? If not, are you insured to a value that will cover all immediate medical expenses, long term disabilities and punitive damages?"

[Cranky]

Mr. said:

LOL! I'm just a joy at parties too!

"Thanks for the drink........by the way, is the beverage that you are serving of a known alcoholic content? If not, do you have a breadth analyzer? If not, are you insured to a value that will cover all immediate medical expenses, long term disabilities and punitive damages?"

"Or can I sleep with your wife until I'm sober?" (sic! :

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Mr. said:

LOL! I'm just a joy at parties too!

"Thanks for the drink........by the way, is the beverage that you are serving of a known alcoholic content? If not, do you have a breadth analyzer? If not, are you insured to a value that will cover all immediate medical expenses, long term disabilities and punitive damages?"

Have you been hanging around Vulcan poetry bars with Blaise, again?

[Cranky]

M. said:

Have you been hanging around Vulcan poetry bars with Blaise, again?

NO SIR!

The last thing I heard is that Blaise was kidnapped by two Klingon beauties that were trying to rewrite the Kama Sutra....

[Habit]

Next subject PLEEEEAAAASE!!!

*shakes head*

[seventeen]

Winner and runner up in Klingon Idol?

[blaise]

Blaise is being well taken care of by someone I daresay is more pulchritudinous than what you fellows return to every night. (I wonder, are those charming damsels downloaded in the post M. Beaux-Eaux' wife and mother-in-law?) I am so content that I usually rise early to prepare oatmeal and coffee for her. Occasionally I make her chocolate pudding. The only downside to making chocolate pudding is that I have to clean the pot. By way of compensation, I scrape what remains of the hot pudding from the pot and spoon it into my own mouth.

Now to return to the topic, would the Habs attempt to sign Darcy Tucker and Tie Domi?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

They let him go! Poor guy sounds delirious, though. Some solid food, oatmeal and chocolate pudding doesn't sound like a healthy diet, should have him feeling human in no time.

[blaise]

M. said:

They let him go! Poor guy sounds delirious, though. Some solid food, oatmeal and chocolate pudding doesn't sound like a healthy diet, should have him feeling human in no time.

I said I prepared it for my lady, although sometimes I partake of it as well. I can truthfully say I am not overweight. Ieat moderately and make sure I include vegetables in my diet.

Now for some free advice to the culinary sinners. From his previous posts I learned that M. Beaux-Eaux indulges in fatty sausages, poutine, and other artery-cloggers, washed down with alcoholic beverages. He should try oatmeal. It's rich in fiber and aids in elimination of LDL cholesterol. Samuel Johnson said that in England oats are fed to the horses and in Scotland to the people. The good Doctor Johnson was wrong to be so disdainful.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

What did they do to him? He's still raving.

[blaise]

M. said:

What did they do to him? He's still raving.

I am concerned for the health of M. Beaux Eaux. He is irreplaceable. Yet his unhealthful diet imperils his continuance as a moderator. Let us pray that he revises his diet and joins a health club instead of munching sausages and poutine and puffing vile cigars as he sits at his keyboard 19 hours a day.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Oh dear, oh dear, the hallucinations are continuing. This is far worse than we could have imagined. Even a little Klingon love can bend one out of shape, but to have been the boy toy of those twin towers of delight...

Should we send him to a Romulan health spa? Or perhaps a week at a Ferengi casino would turn the tide?

[franko]

Blaise said:

Let us . . .

Did you just use the "p" word? ;D

[blaise]

M. said:

Oh dear, oh dear, the hallucinations are continuing. This is far worse than we could have imagined. Even a little Klingon love can bend one out of shape, but to have been the boy toy of those twin towers of delight...

Should we send him to a Romulan health spa? Or perhaps a week at a Ferengi casino would turn the tide?

I guess M Beaux Eaux' business is in the doldrums. He whiles away his time watching Star Trek reruns. I understand there's quite an archive out there.

Now, about his diet. Too much cholesterol. We need him to reassure us that he's getting his veggies, and oatmeal too.

Oh, Petr, would you please call Mrs. Al and tell her to get on his case about his diet?

[BadCompany]

Mr. said:

NO SIR! Mercenaries and their hyenas can not change the PREVIOUS AGREED TO TERMS OF THE AGREEMENT. The old CBA terms do NOT expire at the convinience of the NHLPA and it's mercenaries. They can NOT pick and chose what they want or what suits them. Nor can ANY NHL team sign players. See above post.

Yes, I know, I am taking the all fun out of the speculation.....

So if the terms don’t expire, then why wouldn’t they become free agents? The terms of the old CBA say that players have to received qualifying offers by July 1st, and if they don’t they become UFAs. If those terms are still in place, and none of these guys receive offers…

(not that I wasn’t enjoying the discussion on Mr. Bozo’s diet…)

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

*brrrraaaaak* Man, that's garlicky all-beef salami..

Hmmm, so maybe Daly's outburst was in good part the product of fear. Well, well...lettuce sea...

[Doc Holliday]

Slam said:

"Player status issues, such as retention rights and free agency, are all subjects to be collectively bargained," union spokesman Jon Weatherdon said in a statement.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Slam said:

"Player status issues, such as retention rights and free agency, are all subjects to be collectively bargained," union spokesman Jon Weatherdon said in a statement.

Of course, these issues must be covered under the new CBA.

What BC and I are wondering about is the status of players, once specifically articulated deadlines embedded in the old CBA, which would have applied to them, have lapsed.

There has been a strong Cranky case made for the articles of the old CBA lingering over the players like a smell that won't go away, even though the CBA is dead and buried.

Let's see.

[Doc Holliday]

I agree that there is a void right now that's been created by all the time wasted by the negotiations commitees. This makes matter even worse than it was since these people must now negotiate grand father clauses on missed deadlines and other fun things on top of what they were already unable to agree on. A true shame.

For the fun of speculating, I am not sure who would be served best by a massive influx of free agents. Personally I'd let it happen if only for the insane excitement of such a massive UFA hunting season.

[blaise]

The paradigm that suits me the most is that of the NFL. It doesn't fit perfectly because of the revenue sharing generated by the the rich TV fees.

The athletic longevity of hockey players and football players is similar.

The existence of a salary cap in the NFL makes being a coach or GM interesting.

The ability of teams to cut players appeals to me. The obvious reason is that it permits cutting dead wood, but that's not all. It creates a pool of free agents, which enables teams to pick up players other teams can't fit under their salary cap. It certainly helps expansion teams that have to play catch-up.

Well-run teams (such as the New England Patriots) can still remain real contenders over a period of years.

[Cranky]

BadCompany said:

So if the terms don’t expire, then why wouldn’t they become free agents? The terms of the old CBA say that players have to received qualifying offers by July 1st, and if they don’t they become Ufa's. If those terms are still in place, and none of these guys receive offers…

(not that I wasn’t enjoying the discussion on Mr. Bozo’s diet…)

Yes and no...................*shrug*

Some sharkey language.........

The NHL is negotiating as a collective with the NHLPA collective and until such time that they have come to a new collective agreement, there can not be any negotiations or agreements by any subset of the collectives.

So......

Could the Hab's sign any FREE agents? No. I am SURE that the parent team can NOT but it should not stop the farm team which operates as a seperate entity. After all, it's the NHL/NHLPA collectives that we are talking about. They also have CBA clauses that limit existing players movement which are still in effect.

We see that the Hab's sent Ward and Begin to the AHL. They were already part of the organization AND they are playing in the AHL (Bull Dogs, seperate entity, seperate league).

The hyenas..........

What the agents are trying to do is play a loophole game by claiming that they are going to court to uphold ONE part of the agreement. Since the CBA stated that they had to have a qualifying offer or they were free agents, they are CLAIMING free agency even though the NHL teams can NOT legally tender a qualifying offer. The NHL teams can not legally offer ANY contracts until the collective agreement is in place. Future NHL contracts have to be written WITHIN the terms of the new CBA. Since there is NO CBA therefore there is NO contracts.

There are no loopholes here because two things bind their greed.

1. The labor law of federal and state statutory laws, administrative agency regulations, and judicial decisions which binds the individual action and the collectives actions.

2. The negotiated procedure of an existing CBA.

They are also hoping that some moronic owner will try to break the agreement under simple greed. Can't happen. The NHLPA OR the NHL can go to court and nullify ANY contract that was done outside the CBA.

Unless they get a two bit corrupt judge to agree with them, they do not have a snow balls chance in hell of superseding a collective bargaining agreement or changing the labor laws of the US and Canada to suit their greed.

Now....here's more.....

If the hyenas DO win (fat chance) by using the argument that the NHLPA is an association and not a union, therefore they can negotiate outside the CBA, then they busted their own union.
That is why the NHLPA has made the statement that they did and that's why Daly saying that it's illegal.

$200.00 please......

[Cranky]

Doc_Holliday said:

I agree that there is a void right now that's been created by all the time wasted by the negotiations commitees. This makes matter even worse than it was since these people must now negotiate grand father clauses on missed deadlines and other fun things on top of what they were already unable to agree on. A true shame.

For the fun of speculating, I am not sure who would be served best by a massive influx of free agents. Personally I'd let it happen if only for the insane excitement of such a massive UFA hunting season.

It should not be a big thing. They will all be subject to either an CBA agreement or existing labor laws.

[Cranky]

M. said:

Of course, these issues must be covered under the new CBA.

What BC and I are wondering about is the status of players, once specifically articulated deadlines embedded in the old CBA, which would have applied to them, have lapsed.

There has been a strong Cranky case made for the articles of the old CBA lingering over the players like a smell that won't go away, even though the CBA is dead and buried.

Let's see.

On the very top of the pyramid, the overiding factor is that no NHL club can sign any player until there is a CBA.

Any terms, conditions or procedures (lapsed or otherwise) that were in effect under the old CBA have to be re-included or renegotiated. If the were going to be UFA's before the new CBA and the NEW CBA said that UFA's are going to be at 50, then the "normal" thing that is done is the grandfathering of the old terms for players immidiatly affected. However, any reduction in UFA age will likely be immidiate.

Everything is negotiable as long as it is within federal and state statutory laws, administrative agency regulations, and judicial decisions.

[BadCompany]

Mr. said:

Yes and no...................*shrug*

Some sharkey language.........

The NHL is negotiating as a collective with the NHLPA collective and until such time that they have come to a new collective agreement, there can not be any negotiations or agreements by any subset of the collectives.

So......

Could the Hab's sign any FREE agents? No. I am SURE that the parent team can NOT but it should not stop the farm team which operates as a seperate entity. After all, it's the NHL/NHLPA collectives that we are talking about. They also have CBA clauses that limit existing players movement which are still in effect.

We see that the Hab's sent Ward and Begin to the AHL. They were already part of the organization AND they are playing in the AHL (Bull Dogs, seperate entity, seperate league).

The hyenas..........

What the agents are trying to do is play a loophole game by claiming that they are going to court to uphold ONE part of the agreement. Since the CBA stated that they had to have a qualifying offer or they were free agents, they are CLAIMING free agency even though the NHL teams can NOT legally tender a qualifying offer. The NHL teams can not legally offer ANY contracts until the collective agreement is in place. Future NHL contracts have to be written WITHIN the terms of the new CBA. Since there is NO CBA therefore there is NO contracts.

There are no loopholes here because two things bind their greed.

1. The labor law of federal and state statutory laws, administrative agency regulations, and judicial decisions which binds the individual action and the collectives actions.

2. The negotiated procedure of an existing CBA.

They are also hoping that some moronic owner will try to break the agreement under simple greed. Can't happen. The NHLPA OR the NHL can go to court and nullify ANY contract that was done outside the CBA.

Unless they get a two bit corrupt judge to agree with them, they do not have a snow balls chance in hell of superseding a collective bargaining agreement or changing the labor laws of the US and Canada to suit their greed.

Now....here's more.....

If the hyenas DO win (fat chance) by using the argument that the NHLPA is an association and not a union, therefore they can negotiate outside the CBA, then they busted their own union.
That is why the NHLPA has made the statement that they did and that's why Daly saying that it's illegal.

$200.00 please......

So teams can’t sign these UFAs until a new CBA is signed. And? So what? Once the new CBA is signed, all of these guys are still UFAs, unless the NHLPA agrees to a new clause stating that players declared UFAs under the old CBA, are not, in fact, UFAs.

Given the spirit of friendliness and cooperation that exists between the NHL and the NHLPA at the moment, that shouldn’t be too hard, right?

Anybody wonder why agents have kept their mouths shut, and have sided with the union for this long? I wonder what promises the Goodenow has made to them?

Bob was right – there are still a LOT more things to negotiate, aside from dollars and cents…

[Cranky]

BadCompany said:

So teams can’t sign these UFAs until a new CBA is signed. And? So what? Once the new CBA is signed, all of these guys are still UFAs, unless the NHLPA agrees to a new clause stating that players declared UFAs under the old CBA, are not, in fact, UFAs.

Given the spirit of friendliness and cooperation that exists between the NHL and the NHLPA at the moment, that shouldn’t be too hard, right?

Anybody wonder why agents have kept their mouths shut, and have sided with the union for this long? I wonder what promises the Goodenow has made to them?

Bob was right – there are still a LOT more things to negotiate, aside from dollars and cents…

They are NOT UFA's just because they say so. They do not have to "create" a new clause. When the CBA is signed, this clause can be brought forward to the new CBA. The respective NHL teams can THEN legally offer qualifying contracts and there goes the wishfully thinking.

I don't understand why you are hoping to see a Everest from this ant hill. Both the NHL and the NHLPA have stated it can't happen and only the hyenas are yelping!

Okay, maybe I do understand. Frustration, anger, disillusionment, withdrawal symptoms from a favorite past time.................jilted by another date?