What do you watch?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

thehabsfan said:

mrbozo said:

Experience has taught me that you absolutely must keep an eye on the plumbers.

...but look away when they bend over to pick up a monkey wrench!

THF

No to worry, I'll be too preoccupied with a platter of chicken wings, liberally doused with Frank's hot sauce.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

When I was watching the Habs in the late 60's and 70's, there were too many stars to count. I grew up idolizing Coco Lemaire, the Little "M", J.C. Tremblay and even a few other stars like Bobby Orr. Heck, my mother, who was a stanch Maple Leafs fan, even respected Le Gross Bill.

However, I originally started liking the Habs for several reasons:

• because they were winners;
  
  
• the way the adults talked of them, Montreal was already a legendary franchise a la "the Flying Frenchmen." and I wanted to be part of that;
  
  
• they had Danny Gallivan and Dick Irvin; and
  
  
• they had the stars

As I got older life seem to balance out. I never watched another game by myself in my parents basement just in case the Habs lost (I didn't want anyone around me if they did. I'd wait until Monday morning until I arrived at school to take the inevitable ribbing). I left home for good when I was 21 and between joining the forces and meeting my future wife, I didn't have as much time to watch Habs as I would've liked. The future Mrs. Dis hated hockey and so we had to find, errrr, other "games" to play.

Note to Star Wars Nerds and those of you who still watch hockey from you parent's basements; balance is a good thing.

But, I always tried to find the time to watch the Battle of Quebec. And the Habs didn't have the array of stars they had in the 70's. In fact, many of their "stars" were waning while I loathed the day the Nordiques would be a powerhouse. It had come down to watching the teams battle instead of the players dominating.

When I got to Germany just after les gars won the Cup in '86, Mrs. Dis and I put a lot of Canadiana on hold. However, my father-in-law would tape games for me and send them over. I'd get them three or four weeks later but I'd have some of my German friends over for beers and hockey (no I wouldn't insult them by serving them Canadian beer). And back then, the Habs still didn't have any superstars to speak of. It was just plain good to see the team play (or struggle; my father-in-law remains a hard Leafs fan and he sent over as many Montreal loses as he could God love 'em)

When I got home in '91 I started watching the Habs again regularly. Other than Patrick Roy, they didn't really have any superstars on the team again per se. Though he had stolen a Cup for us in '86, I never really jumped on the "Bandwagon-Roy". Denis Savard came into town but his best days were behind him. I had only been in Canada a few months when they landed Kirk Muller, but it was at the expense of a player I liked a lot; Stephane Richer.

The team had a lot of potential stars in waiting and dind't have any nicknames like "Boom-Boom," "Roadrunner," "The Big M," "le Démon Blond" or "Big Bird." In fact the only bonafide impact player on the '93 Cup winner was, again, Roy. They won the Cup largely because of Roy's brilliance, but also because they were a team. Specifically, a team that lacked the nicknames and the stars that go went with them (alright, I suppose "Saint Patrick" would do, but I really didn't like it all that much or what it did to Roy himself).

Fast-forward to the present. If you've been watching the Habs over the past few years you aren't watching them for the stars; we simply haven't hand anyone to brag about in recent times. However, like the '93 Cup team there might not be many stars, but they are a good team. It's unfortunate that the lockout had to occur mainly because this year's edition of the Habs would have been better.

Coming full-circle on you, I still believe that many people watch the game for the stars. But, while many of us Habs fans grew up admiring Jacque Lemaire's slapshot, Pete Mahovlich's slick one-on-one moves, Guy Lafleur's dominance, the Leafs annual playoff exit in 4 games straight, we have had to adjust our collective focus onto the team itself. In Montreal we simply don't have the heros we had when we were younger; everything is now about the team. Just ask the 10 rookies on the '86 Cup winner and the '93 Cup champs. Other than Roy, les gars have had to rely on themselves.

Yes, I used to idolize the stars a while back. But, life has it's ways. Shoot! Have to change the laundry again. Call it a balance.

Cheers.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

bob said:

In a recent article, Al Strachan stated that NHL fans come out to the game primarily to watch the star players. It's interesting that he stated this as fact rather than opinion.

As a result, Strachan believes that any re-birth of the league that does not include the handful of true star players that exist today, will be doomed to failure.

But stars come and stars go. There always seems to be someone ready to come in and fill that role. While players like Bobby Orr, Guy Lafleur and Bobby Hull will never be replaced the game has lived on with new stars.

My question is, do you watch hockey simply to see the strars play or do you like to see an exciting game where goals are scored and the outcome is in doubt until the final whistle.

What is your opinion? Are the current star players absolutely critical to the game or is the game itself (assuming it can be fixed) more important?

Personally, I believe some players have tried to make themselves bigger than the game and have tried to sell the public on the absolute necessity of their participation.

I think the game needs to be fixed both financially and on the ice. Once tht is done, the game will be more exciting, existing stars can continue to participate and new stars will emerge.

Here's another side:

• The stars of yesterday were heros. The stars of today are millionaires.
  
  
• The stars of yesterday enjoyed signing autographs. During one pregame warmup Bobby Hull stopped signing autographs only because the zamboni was pushing him off the ice. Yet, some of the millionaires today would rather run over the autograph seekers in their BMW's rather than sign a card, a program, etc.
  
  
• The stars of yesterday were just that because of on-ice accomplishments, while some of the stars of today feel it is their just place.
  
  
• The stars of yesterday had humility while the stars of today want more and will never had enough.

My answer, I'll watch the Habs as a team.

Cheers.

[PTH]

I want an exciting game, which is typically created by star players. By definition, a star player is a player who does special things whereas the other players are the pylons the stars outplay.

However, after a lockout like this, I have to say that during the "window" for getting me seriously hooked again, I'll need to recognize much of my team and some of my favorites.

I guess that's the key element for me, seeing my favorite players rather than stars per se.

If rosters are too badly shaken up, even if we have a better team on paper, I doubt I'll really ever enjoy hockey to the same extent I used to. Certainly not enough to subscribe to cable just for hockey.

[roke]

Personally, I watch for the team, that team being the Habs of course. I tried to watch the first two games in the Memorial Cup round robin and despite the first being Rimouski vs. London I didn't really enjoy it at all. I turned off the television and caught the overtime which was pretty good but not as enjoyable as I could have hoped. Also, when watching the World Championships this year I found my self reading or on the internet reading news and message boards rather than paying attention to the games, even though I was watching Team Canada.

What I'm getting at in this long-winded summary of my viewing experiences is that I don't cheer for particular players or hockey in general. I cheer for the sweater that those players wear and even if the team isn't good, such as some of the teams we saw under Houle I will be cheering for the Habs before I cheer for a player or league.

ps- It's threads and responses like these that make me enjoy and prefer this message board more than any other

[BadCompany]

disgruntled70shab said:

Here's another side:

• The stars of yesterday were heros. The stars of today are millionaires.
  
  
• The stars of yesterday enjoyed signing autographs. During one pregame warmup Bobby Hull stopped signing autographs only because the zamboni was pushing him off the ice. Yet, some of the millionaires today would rather run over the autograph seekers in their BMW's rather than sign a card, a program, etc.
  
  
• The stars of yesterday were just that because of on-ice accomplishments, while some of the stars of today feel it is their just place.
  
  
• The stars of yesterday had humility while the stars of today want more and will never had enough.

My answer, I'll watch the Habs as a team.

Cheers.

You know, I really don’t think that’s the case. Especially compared to other sports. In football, you have players charged with murder, drug trafficking, rape. Same thing as in basketball, with a couple of players beating up fans in the middle of a game, to add to the fun. The Cincinnati Reds yesterday released their career saves leader, in part because he made an obscene gesture to fans booing his latest dismal performance. Patrice Brisebois has taken literally years, and years of abuse, with nary a peep of protest. Hockey’s great “insults” come from players like Patrick Roy raising his arms up into the air. Oooo… When was the last time a hockey player went berserk on a paying customer, the way Milton Bradley did just recently? Ever see a hockey player chuck a fire-cracker at a bunch of kids, the way Vince Coleman famously did, or a chair into the stands, the way Francisco Rodriguez did? In fact, it was players from older generations who were more likely to go into the stands to pound on some guy who insulted them. You don’t see that in the NHL anymore, do you?

You talk about autographs, and yes, its true, some stars don’t like signing them. But, I’m also certain there were stars in the past who didn’t sign them either. Plus, you have to work the E-bay factor into all of this. Fans in the past were more respective of a player than they are now. Now, you have guys who only want the autograph so they can sell it later on. There are people who are professional autograph-getters – that’s all they do, get autographs and then sell them. Some of them will hire children to do their work. Who can refuse a child, right? Elliott Price, former Expos play-by-play man, and current Team 990 broadcaster, tells a story about how players will tear the edge off a card, when they sign it, thus rendering it useless for re-sale value. Some of these players get yelled at for doing that. Obviously the autograph seeker didn’t want it for its sentimental value. Look at the brawl that went on in the stands amongst player trying to get Barry Bond’s home run ball – then look at how much it resold for later on. Some players may be jaded when it comes to things like autographs, but its not without good reason.

I also disagree about stars and humility. Sure, you can find some who are arrogant you-know-whats, but I honestly believe many, many more are not. Look at Saku Koivu, and the courage and grace he exemplifies. Is there a nicer, more polite person (never mind sports star) than Jarome Iginla? Steve Yzerman? Joe Sakic? Vincent Lecavalier, Martin St. Louis and Brad Richards? How about Rick Nash, only 20 years old, displaying maturity and humility beyond his years? Sydney Crosby? How many players donate luxuryes box to sick children every year? Mats Sundin, Markus Naslund, Daniel Alfreddson. Ryan Smyth, Shane Doan. Who, on the Montreal Canadiens, would you absolutely forbid your daughter from dating? You take the top-5 players at any position, and you’d be hard pressed to find any who are out-and-out jerks. (well, except maybe goalies – but they’re a different bunch, no matter what generation they come from). People say hockey’s biggest jerk is Jaromir Jagr, but I mean really. He’s never attacked a fan, nor said anything against them (or any of his teammates, for that matter), and I don’t think anybody is all that concerned that he’s going to lean out of his limo and pump a round of bullets into a crowd of people, the way NFL MVP Ray Lewis may or may not have done.

I think its easy to take shots at players – they make millions to play a game, after all – but in many cases I think these shots are unwarranted. Most are still just boys, considered old and washed up when they hit 30. We analyze the character and maturity of 20, 21 year olds, and find them lacking, forgetting that most 20, 21 year olds spend their days drinking, partying, and trying to find the quickest way into some girl’s pants. Compared to most people of their age groups, hockey players display maturity and wisdom well beyond their actual ages. They have to have it, in order to reach the level they are at. Their biggest crime is making a lot of money, and its not even our money – its some billionaire’s money.

[Doc Holliday]

...well Lindros was quite a certified jerk... Many players have reputations for bar rumbles and we've all heard of hotel rooms being wrecked, flight attendant being insulted, etc... We've seen some throw Gatorade in the stands and/or give fans a piece of their mind (verbally). Hockey players are not shielded from being jerks but that is not to say all of them are. I'm sure we could find genuine good guys in the NBA and NFL, Micheal Jordan comes to mind pretty quickly...

I've heard and had great stories about hockey players. As a kid, I had the unfortunate priviledge of spending a christmas at the Children Hospital. Sure enough HABS players (and Alouettes too) showed up and gave us gifts, autographs, etc... As a young adult I met Guy Carbonneau (in his peak as a HABS) he shook my hand, talked to me and was all class... I've heard also many really bad ones...

In the end though, the present conflict that has billionaires fighting millionaires over our hard earned money, leaves scars. Very few people (if any) rose and said, my god, let's forget about our stupid legal quarrels and let's give the fan back their game in a jiffy... Nobody gave a darn about the little guy and that has broken something that I think can never be repaired.

Everybody expects Wirtz and Jacobs to be careless money driven vampires... But nobody wanted to believe Lecavalier, Iginla, Koivu and St-louis would be like them... Their our players...! They won't act like heartless financial tycoons...! Well they woke us up. They've shown they collectively don't care and the only voice that raised above the crowd were those of past Stars (Hull, Beliveau, Lafleur, Dionne, etc...) The ones we felt respected us beyond their paycheques. Right now what we see is not the goofy smile of Vincent Lecavalier, it's Bob Goodenow's cold, stobborn, angry face.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Good reply, thanks BC. Allow me please.

badcompany said:

You know, I really don’t think that’s the case. Especially compared to other sports. In football, you have players charged with murder, drug trafficking, rape. Same thing as in basketball, with a couple of players beating up fans in the middle of a game, to add to the fun. The Cincinnati Reds yesterday released their career saves leader, in part because he made an obscene gesture to fans booing his latest dismal performance. Patrice Brisebois has taken literally years, and years of abuse, with nary a peep of protest. Hockey’s great “insults” come from players like Patrick Roy raising his arms up into the air. Oooo… When was the last time a hockey player went berserk on a paying customer, the way Milton Bradley did just recently? Ever see a hockey player chuck a fire-cracker at a bunch of kids, the way Vince Coleman famously did, or a chair into the stands, the way Francisco Rodriguez did? In fact, it was players from older generations who were more likely to go into the stands to pound on some guy who insulted them. You don’t see that in the NHL anymore, do you?

I wouldn't be fast to add "anymore." There are exceptions to everything. As far as the NHL goes, I can agree that these crimes do not occur with the same frequency. However, to say that NHL players are exempt, or will be exempted in the future may not be accurate. Brian Spencer was convicted of murder a few years back while recently St. Louis Blues player was indicted for plotting a murder in 2004.

As far as rape, there have been NHL stars also accused of the same, but again, I agree insomuch as not recently.

You talk about autographs, and yes, its true, some stars don’t like signing them. But, I’m also certain there were stars in the past who didn’t sign them either. Plus, you have to work the E-bay factor into all of this.

Yes there were players and coaches who refused to sign autographs. In fact, one scenario remains with me is that of Phil Esposito. First he didn't want to be there and secondly, he couldn't get out of there fast enough with the money he made from selling autographs.

Fans in the past were more respective of a player than they are now. Now, you have guys who only want the autograph so they can sell it later on. There are people who are professional autograph-getters – that’s all they do, get autographs and then sell them. Some of them will hire children to do their work. Who can refuse a child, right? Elliott Price, former Expos play-by-play man, and current Team 990 broadcaster, tells a story about how players will tear the edge off a card, when they sign it, thus rendering it useless for re-sale value. Some of these players get yelled at for doing that. Obviously the autograph seeker didn’t want it for its sentimental value. ... Some players may be jaded when it comes to things like autographs, but its not without good reason.

True, but I think these autograph seekers are a minority to the youngsters who actually value just having the signature of their favourite player. Still it had distanced some players from the process.

I also disagree about stars and humility. Sure, you can find some who are arrogant you-know-whats, but I honestly believe many, many more are not. Look at Saku Koivu, and the courage and grace he exemplifies. Is there a nicer, more polite person (never mind sports star) than Jarome Iginla? Steve Yzerman? Joe Sakic? Vincent Lecavalier, Martin St. Louis and Brad Richards? How about Rick Nash, only 20 years old, displaying maturity and humility beyond his years? Sydney Crosby? How many players donate luxuryes box to sick children every year? Mats Sundin, Markus Naslund, Daniel Alfreddson. Ryan Smyth, Shane Doan. Who, on the Montreal Canadiens, would you absolutely forbid your daughter from dating? You take the top-5 players at any position, and you’d be hard pressed to find any who are out-and-out jerks. (well, except maybe goalies – but they’re a different bunch, no matter what generation they come from). People say hockey’s biggest jerk is Jaromir Jagr, but I mean really. He’s never attacked a fan, nor said anything against them (or any of his teammates, for that matter), and I don’t think anybody is all that concerned that he’s going to lean out of his limo and pump a round of bullets into a crowd of people, the way NFL MVP Ray Lewis may or may not have done.

Yes, I can acknowledge that many of the players you've cited have given back to their communities. However, it's not without a tradeoff. Yes, some have altrusitic intentions, however, they are receiving a large percentage of their monies back as charitable donations.

It's guys like Alexei Ya$hin who ruin it for me. After that National Arts Centre fiasco, I don't look at some players quite in the same way.

Funny thing about Alfredsson; he may give back to the Ottawa/Kanata community, but listening to franco's story about Alfy being more worried about his car and just about running over kids to get the heck out of there, I really have to question his sincerity.

I think its easy to take shots at players – they make millions to play a game, after all – but in many cases I think these shots are unwarranted.

Yes it is easier to take a shot at players especially when the current lockout is due to them feeling they can't live on $1.8 million a year.

Most are still just boys, ...

Correct.

We analyze the character and maturity of 20, 21 year olds, and find them lacking, forgetting that most 20, 21 year olds spend their days drinking, partying, and trying to find the quickest way into some girl’s pants.

You make that sound like a bad thing.

Compared to most people of their age groups, hockey players display maturity and wisdom well beyond their actual ages. They have to have it, in order to reach the level they are at.

They have to be mature especially when dealing with the media. Also, growing up fast could also have something to do with leaving home as such an early age.

Cheers.

[arctic]

What do I watch? There's tennis occasionally. Right now it's being played at Roland Garros. Why would anyone want to play on red clay? Leave it to the French to be contrary. And of course there are migrating birds. No bad line calls as they fly in formation, no arguments with umpires.

[roke]

disgruntled70shab said:

Good reply, thanks BC. Allow me please.

badcompany said:

It's guys like Alexei Ya$hin who ruin it for me. After that National Arts Centre fiasco, I don't look at some players quite in the same way.

Funny thing about Alfredsson; he may give back to the Ottawa/Kanata community, but listening to franco's story about Alfy being more worried about his car and just about running over kids to get the heck out of there, I really have to question his sincerity.

Would someone care to enlighten me regarding these two "incidents"? It would be much appreciated.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

roke said:

disgruntled70shab said:

Good reply, thanks BC. Allow me please.

badcompany said:

It's guys like Alexei Ya$hin who ruin it for me. After that National Arts Centre fiasco, I don't look at some players quite in the same way.

Funny thing about Alfredsson; he may give back to the Ottawa/Kanata community, but listening to franco's story about Alfy being more worried about his car and just about running over kids to get the heck out of there, I really have to question his sincerity.

Would someone care to enlighten me regarding these two "incidents"? It would be much appreciated.

Going from memory which is neither accurate or reliable (like Newsweek):

Yashin donated a portion of his salary (tax deductable) to the National Arts Center. He stipulated that a condition of his donation was that the national Arts Center hire his mother as Director at a hefty salary. It was a position for which she had no experience, and didn't work too hard or often. The generous gift amounted to a way to give money to his mother and save on taxes. Nice guy.

[TheHabsfan]

habsfaninla said:

Going from memory which is neither accurate or reliable (like Newsweek):

...or FoxNews!

habsfaninla said:

Yashin donated a portion of his salary (tax deductable) to the National Arts Center. He stipulated that a condition of his donation was that the national Arts Center hire his mother as Director at a hefty salary. It was a position for which she had no experience, and didn't work too hard or often. The generous gift amounted to a way to give money to his mother and save on taxes. Nice guy.

There is nothing wrong with giving some things to your mother, but trying to pass as a saint for doing something like this just to save "money" (as if he didn't have enough" speaks volumes about the type of guy he is)....I mean , how cheap can you get!!! I don't have as much money in my retirement fund than he has in one of his pockets, and I wouldn't pull that crap!

The isles can keep him...!

THF

[Disgruntled70sHab]

roke said:

Would someone care to enlighten me regarding these two "incidents"? It would be much appreciated.

Well, as HFLA was saying, Ya$hin donated $1 million (CDN) to the National Arts Centre (NAC) to promote Russian arts in Canada. This was to be paid over 5 years at $200,000/year.

However, with that money Ya$hin made an agreement with the NAC that they would hire his father and mother as the main points of contact for any Russian troope that came over. These would be full-time jobs and they would each be paid $80,000/year. So, $160,000 of that annual $200,000 was accounted for. Add to the fact that he could claim a large percentage of the $200,000 as a charitable donation along claiming the wages his parents made (under a company name I can't remember now) and you can see that this was more of an investment than anything else.

This all came to light when the NAC started publicly complaining that no Russian artists had performed since Ya$hin started his donations, yet money was being paid out to his parents. Ya$hin immediate renegged on the whole deal that sent the local media into a frenzy.

To be fair to Ya$hin (for you BC) he was getting terrible advise from his agent, Mark Gandler, who was behind the scenes calling all of the shots.

However, it may also be Gandler who is responsible for Ya$hin not honouring even one of his contracts. It got so bad that the NHLPA was mad at Ya$hin and the Ottawa Senators even threatened to take him to court.

Have to go.

Cheers.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

roke said:

disgruntled70shab said:

Good reply, thanks BC. Allow me please.

badcompany said:

It's guys like Alexei Ya$hin who ruin it for me. After that National Arts Centre fiasco, I don't look at some players quite in the same way.

Funny thing about Alfredsson; he may give back to the Ottawa/Kanata community, but listening to franco's story about Alfy being more worried about his car and just about running over kids to get the heck out of there, I really have to question his sincerity.

Would someone care to enlighten me regarding these two "incidents"? It would be much appreciated.

I think Franco might be able to shed some light on the "Alfredsson" reference.

Cheers.

[franko]

disgruntled70shab said:

roke said:

Would someone care to enlighten me regarding these two "incidents"? It would be much appreciated.

I think Franco might be able to shed some light on the "Alfredsson" reference.

Cheers.

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