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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 17, 2014 22:55:53 GMT -5
These ones all panned out and each of them is contributing at the present time ... Tokarski for Desjardins was a steal ... we actually dealt Cedric twice to the Lightning ... Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz; Weise is contributing to the cause all the time ... Weaver played great in the playoffs last year and he came over for a 5th ... Bergevin got that 5th back when he acquired Parenteau for Briere ... that was was great trade on several levels as just getting Briere out of Montreal was no easy task ... Sergei Gonchar for Travis Moen is working out well ... I have no idea how Gonchar does it, but he gets open on the PP ... opinions?
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Post by GNick99 on Nov 18, 2014 0:14:25 GMT -5
Bergs has made a lot of good moves. Desharnais extension only move I didn't like.
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Post by Gogie on Nov 18, 2014 9:01:24 GMT -5
It's the "little" moves (i.e., acquiring Tokarski, Weaver, Weise, dumping Bourque to Hamilton) that make all the difference. The blockbuster trades get the headlines but at the end of the day (at least IMHO) those deals around the margin that fill holes and sculpt the team are the ones that lead to success. I think Bergevin has a talent for those moves.
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Post by frozone on Nov 18, 2014 10:28:34 GMT -5
I don't know if we can really consider this a "move", but picking up Prust as a free agent has been my favourite move so far. Maybe the price tag was a little bit high, but I'm sure there was a lot of interest in Prust and MB made sure he picked up the type of player that we badly needed.
If we're talking strictly about trades, Vanek for Colberg + 2nd stands out as a big winner. But the most lopsided trade was probably Ryder + 3rd for Erik Cole. It's unbelievable how often MB is on the winning end of these deals.
But you're right, Gogie. It's the small upgrades that really sculpt the team and lead to long term success. Love that deal for Weise... we got a lot bigger and a lot faster in the blink of an eye.
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Post by christrpn on Nov 18, 2014 16:56:51 GMT -5
I don't know if we can really consider this a "move", but picking up Prust as a free agent has been my favourite move so far. Maybe the price tag was a little bit high, but I'm sure there was a lot of interest in Prust and MB made sure he picked up the type of player that we badly needed. If we're talking strictly about trades, Vanek for Colberg + 2nd stands out as a big winner. But the most lopsided trade was probably Ryder + 3rd for Erik Cole. It's unbelievable how often MB is on the winning end of these deals. But you're right, Gogie. It's the small upgrades that really sculpt the team and lead to long term success. Love that deal for Weise... we got a lot bigger and a lot faster in the blink of an eye. Wasn't it the other way around? Ryder for Cole AND a third? EDIT: Scratch that, you were right
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Post by stoat on Nov 18, 2014 17:04:36 GMT -5
Loads better than Seguin + Peverley for Eriksson + Smith or allowing Horton, Iginal, and Boychuk to escape for nothing. Interesting, because Chiarelli really had it in years past. Reminds me of Pollocks's last few years, when his judgment declined (by 1979 it was apparent that the Hab era was ending).
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 29, 2014 9:34:15 GMT -5
I know moving Bourque and Moen were good for cap space…but if Gonchar and Allen are mainstays this year on our D….we're going nowhere….at the expense of Beaulieu's and Tinordi's development.
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Post by seventeen on Nov 29, 2014 13:05:45 GMT -5
One deal worth reviewing is the gorges for a 2nd rounder. In hindsight, have we truly replaced Gorges on the ice and could we still use him in a leadership role? So far I'd have to say the answer to that is no (replacement wise).
Gilbert has been inconsistent and the way the team has played in some crucial games has left a lot to be desired. So while I'm a Berg backer, I feel obligated to point out moves that haven't worked out. Has the savings in cap space (Gilbert vs Gorges) really been worth it?
Now we haven't used up that draft choice, but if it doesn't turn into a top 4 or 5 dman or a 2nd line forward it may not have been worth it. We'll also have to see if the Cap space allows us to get that guy who'll make the difference.
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Post by PTH on Nov 29, 2014 14:13:21 GMT -5
One deal worth reviewing is the gorges for a 2nd rounder. In hindsight, have we truly replaced Gorges on the ice and could we still use him in a leadership role? So far I'd have to say the answer to that is no (replacement wise). Gilbert has been inconsistent and the way the team has played in some crucial games has left a lot to be desired. So while I'm a Berg backer, I feel obligated to point out moves that haven't worked out. Has the savings in cap space (Gilbert vs Gorges) really been worth it? Now we haven't used up that draft choice, but if it doesn't turn into a top 4 or 5 dman or a 2nd line forward it may not have been worth it. We'll also have to see if the Cap space allows us to get that guy who'll make the difference. Well, I think you have to look at this long-term... I think the motivation for moving Gorges wasn't for this year's cap, it was for the next years on his deal. Plus, moving Gorges meant re-signing Weaver before he was a UFA. Fact is, I think we should be comparing Gorges to Weaver, if we're going to be trying to figure out Bergevin's moves. As to the 2nd rounder, to me, what happens with the pick isn't all that important. We got a lottery ticket, what happens with the lottery depends on our drafting, and to me that's a whole different story. To me, the trades that sent Kostitsyn, Gill and Cammalleri elsewhere and got us picks (or the one where we gave up a 2nd for Vanek) should be rated based on the odds of a pick working out, not on whether or not the picks themselves pan out. (the one exception to this rule is when a trade is made on draft day or for 1st overall, with a specific player on everyone's mind)
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Post by seventeen on Nov 29, 2014 15:02:04 GMT -5
Makes sense. Is a draft pick more valuable in Timmins hands than say Boston's, who have not done a good job drafting in the last 5 or 6 years?
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Post by Andrew on Dec 5, 2014 15:21:07 GMT -5
I read that Collberg was demoted to the ECHL this week, a possible indicator that he's not NHL material, validating Bergevin's decision to trade him. Even if he does make the show, I don't see him coming back to haunt us by challenging for scoring titles. Secondary scoring at best. I'd say good decision to leverage his potential as an asset to get help for the playoffs last year.
Also, 4th line Philly center, Lecavalier was a recent healthy scratch. Good on MB for not caving to his contract demands. Philly is stuck with a bad contract there.
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Post by Lord Bebop on Dec 5, 2014 16:27:57 GMT -5
I know moving Bourque and Moen were good for cap space…but if Gonchar and Allen are mainstays this year on our D….we're going nowhere….at the expense of Beaulieu's and Tinordi's development. Both were pretty terrible defensively especially Beaulieau..... we are trying to contend and neither were playIng at a NHL level.....probably not good for their development to stink up the joint on a consistent basis....i think having them earn their spots on the team is better for their development.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 5, 2014 16:52:08 GMT -5
Good point, jazzy…..but we're still not going far if Gonchar and Allen are mainstays.
They'll likely either be dealt at the deadline…or see only spot duty should we make the playoffs.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 5, 2014 17:03:32 GMT -5
I read that Collberg was demoted to the ECHL this week, a possible indicator that he's not NHL material, validating Bergevin's decision to trade him. Even if he does make the show, I don't see him coming back to haunt us by challenging for scoring titles. Secondary scoring at best. I'd say good decision to leverage his potential as an asset to get help for the playoffs last year. Also, 4th line Philly center, Lecavalier was a recent healthy scratch. Good on MB for not caving to his contract demands. Philly is stuck with a bad contract there. I had to read that twice ... Collberg to Stockton Thunder, ECHL already ... it depends on how he responds to it, though ... Mike Ryder worked his way back from the ECHL and eventually made the big club ... kind of surprised reading that, though ... I'm sure Bergevin saw something in Collberg when they drafted him ... Cheers.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 5, 2014 17:15:01 GMT -5
Good point, jazzy…..but we're still not going far if Gonchar and Allen are mainstays. They'll likely either be dealt at the deadline…or see only spot duty should we make the playoffs. I'm kind of disappointed in that these guys aren't contributing a bit more ... it surprised me to see Allen slowing down as much as he has ... it's possible they'll be moved at the deadline, but in the meantime Beaulieu and Tinordi are still in the AHL ... are they still that green? ... like, I don't know ... I haven't seen them all that much but Beaulieu was impressive when I last saw him ... Cheers.
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Post by BadCompany on Dec 9, 2014 8:38:08 GMT -5
Good point, jazzy…..but we're still not going far if Gonchar and Allen are mainstays. They'll likely either be dealt at the deadline…or see only spot duty should we make the playoffs. I would be surprised if they are dealt at the deadline. Good playoff teams need depth, and lots of it. You need to win 16 games in a pretty short period of time, and you can pretty much guarantee that you will lose players along the way. So you need a lot of bodies lying around, just in case. The only teams that would be interested in guys like Gonchar and Allen are teams looking for such depth, and frankly speaking we should be one of them. Unless you can swing some sort of deal where you dump Allen for a BETTER depth player I see no point in trading him. Goes back to that post I made a while back, about us thinking like winners. You don't want to mortgage your future on a long shot run for the Cup, but Bergevin hasn't done that. Instead he's made his "deadline depth deals" already (at least for the blueline) AND he's cleared up his cap issues for next year at the same time. He won't have to give up a 5th round pick to get this year's version of Mike Weaver in other words.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 9, 2014 9:32:30 GMT -5
Good point, jazzy…..but we're still not going far if Gonchar and Allen are mainstays. They'll likely either be dealt at the deadline…or see only spot duty should we make the playoffs. I would be surprised if they are dealt at the deadline. Good playoff teams need depth, and lots of it. You need to win 16 games in a pretty short period of time, and you can pretty much guarantee that you will lose players along the way. So you need a lot of bodies lying around, just in case. The only teams that would be interested in guys like Gonchar and Allen are teams looking for such depth, and frankly speaking we should be one of them. Unless you can swing some sort of deal where you dump Allen for a BETTER depth player I see no point in trading him. Goes back to that post I made a while back, about us thinking like winners. You don't want to mortgage your future on a long shot run for the Cup, but Bergevin hasn't done that. Instead he's made his "deadline depth deals" already (at least for the blueline) AND he's cleared up his cap issues for next year at the same time. He won't have to give up a 5th round pick to get this year's version of Mike Weaver in other words. I think anything is possible, BC, but at the same time I also think Bergevin will take his foot off the pedal (as you were suggesting) at least until the trade deadline ... I don't have a crystal ball but I suspect the lineup that's on the ice now (include both Tinordi/Beaulieu) just might be the lineup we're going to see come playoff time ... and, yes, I'm still expecting great things from this club this year ... that has not changed ... again, I can only speculate, but if Bergevin pulls off another deal around playoff time I don't think it will involve another roster player (hope he's done with that, at least for this year) ... a combination of picks and prospects would also send the right message to the team ... "this is the team we're heading into the playoffs with" ... we'll see, I guess ... Cheers.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 9, 2014 9:40:04 GMT -5
Good point, jazzy…..but we're still not going far if Gonchar and Allen are mainstays. They'll likely either be dealt at the deadline…or see only spot duty should we make the playoffs. I would be surprised if they are dealt at the deadline. Good playoff teams need depth, and lots of it. You need to win 16 games in a pretty short period of time, and you can pretty much guarantee that you will lose players along the way. So you need a lot of bodies lying around, just in case. The only teams that would be interested in guys like Gonchar and Allen are teams looking for such depth, and frankly speaking we should be one of them. Unless you can swing some sort of deal where you dump Allen for a BETTER depth player I see no point in trading him. Goes back to that post I made a while back, about us thinking like winners. You don't want to mortgage your future on a long shot run for the Cup, but Bergevin hasn't done that. Instead he's made his "deadline depth deals" already (at least for the blueline) AND he's cleared up his cap issues for next year at the same time. He won't have to give up a 5th round pick to get this year's version of Mike Weaver in other words. Depth is one thing….Stanley Cup championship depth is another. I can't see Gonchar or Allen "raising" their games to that level. Plus, if they're going to be regulars during the season, like I said….good luck even getting to the playoffs. Yes, they're "bodies" that can fill in, if needed…and Gonchar might even get you a PP goal or two….but it's the defensive zone liabilities.
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Post by BadCompany on Dec 9, 2014 14:08:05 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't think Allen, Gonchar, or Weaver are the problem. I think the problem is Alexie Emelin, and to a lesser, but only slightly lesser extent, Tom Gilbert. And, since we're throwing the top four under the bus, PK Subban too.
From smallest to biggest problem:
Subban: He's been okay, good really, but not Norris good. I'm not overly worried about him, but he hasn't carried the team like he has in the past.
Gilbert: Tom was brought in as a nod to the analytics crowd. He has never passed the "eye" test, and indeed was bought out by Minnesota because of that. But his advanced stats were very good on a very bad team, so the idea was that he would come to us, a much more talented team, and be all that much better. But he's still failing the "eye" test.
Emelin: He just hasn't been good. He looks slow, he gets lost in the defensive zone far too often, and his calling card, the big hit, seems to have been left in his glove compartment or something. Moving to his "right" (i.e. left) side was supposed to help him, as was an extra year of rehab on his knee. But the results just aren't there. Maybe he's just not that "smart" a hockey player? Rather than being the Number Three we thought he could be, maybe he's just a Number Five after all.
So with Emelin and Gilbert not living up to expectations it puts that much more pressure on your five-through-seven, whoever they may be. You can't just play them 12 minutes a night, because your top two are already maxed out in terms of ice time (and like I said, Subban hasn't been lights out anyways), and your Three and Four haven't picked up the slack. So you kind of have to spread out the minutes a little more, in the hopes that you lessen the damage. We don't have a second pairing in other words.
Which in a roundabout way could help explain why BeauNordi haven't been given full-time chances. While its easy to say "they couldn't worse" - and you'd probably be right - you don't want them to be "just as bad". You want them to be better, but if the only way for them to get better is to put them in positions to succeed (which we often talk about) then how are you going to do that? You can't play them as 5 or 6's, because you need your 5 and 6's to be 3A's, to take minutes away from Emelin and Gilbert. And while BeauNordi may be ready for the NHL they may not be ready for 20 minutes a night. So what do you do? Shatter a guy like Tinordi's confidence? Or suck it up with the scrap-heap veterans and hope a break-through comes through AHL-earned confidence, or a return to glory of Emelin and/or Gilbert?
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 9, 2014 15:06:23 GMT -5
As I was saying to CH, I find it hard to blame any of the players when they're playing for Therrien ... we saw what the team could do at the beginning of the season and now they look like a completely different team ... I still don't see a lot of dump-and-chase going on, but we're not spending a lot of time in the offensive zone, or not near as much as we were at the beginning of the season ... our team looks different ... very different and I'm not so sure we can heap all of that on the players ... Bergevin said that room had to be made for our two blue-chip defensive prospects, Beaulieu and Tinordi, but Tinner is still in Hamilton and Beaulieu has been recalled to fill in on a depleted blue line ... but I get the impression that he'll be back in Hamilton regardless how well he performs ... and, as an outsider looking in, Therrien's Pittsburgh pattern is repeating itself in Montreal this year ... I'm not an NHL coach so I don't know what his plan is, but he just doesn't seem to accept things that work well ... just as soon as things start clicking he changes total direction ... maybe he's trying to build a team that works regardless who's out on the ice, I honestly don't know ... but, whatever it is it's not working ... he has Bergevin's support and that's the bottom line, I reckon ...
Cheers.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Dec 9, 2014 15:15:49 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't think Allen, Gonchar, or Weaver are the problem. I think the problem is Alexie Emelin, and to a lesser, but only slightly lesser extent, Tom Gilbert. And, since we're throwing the top four under the bus, PK Subban too. I was getting ready to write a similar post, but you beat me to it. I've been a big Emelin fan and thought he would be 100% this year after being a year removed from his injury and moving to the left side. But I agree he looks slow, the big hits are not as frequent, and he either gets lazy or confused in his defensive assignments. I'm not sure which but neither is good. I still think Gilbert was a nice addition to the right side, a good stats guy, but he's really paid to be a 3rd pair guy. So it's hard to expect more from him. At this point I would rank order the D and figure out a way to ice the best 6 guys. I would start with something like this: Beaulieu/Subban Markov/Emelin Tinordi/Gilbert Waive Allen and keep Gonchar and Weaver for depth. That makes 8 dmen, plenty of experience, and the best case for the playoffs is AT LEAST one of Beaulieu or Tinordi is getting a regular shift but they gotta start now. There's too much babying and risk aversion by management. I think Beau and Subban could form a real dynamic duo back there, moving Emelin to the right side isn't great but he has experience with it and playing with Markov is a plus, and you manage the shifts of the 3rd pair to maximize their effectiveness. I was willing to give MT/MB the benefit of the doubt when we were winning games, but that's over now and this team really needs to start playing well. I say put the best talent out there and see what happens.
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Post by PTH on Dec 9, 2014 17:38:53 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't think Allen, Gonchar, or Weaver are the problem. I think the problem is Alexie Emelin, and to a lesser, but only slightly lesser extent, Tom Gilbert. And, since we're throwing the top four under the bus, PK Subban too. ..... Good post. This pretty much intersects with what Doc Holliday was saying recently, that our D is really an expansion team defense, with a couple of top-notch guys added. With that in mind, and the relative ease we had in getting rid of Bourque and Moen's deals for next season, that Gorges deal doesn't look as urgent... and losing his leadership didn't help either, for those multiple-goal blowout losses especially. Right now, we're a really young team once again...
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Post by PTH on Dec 9, 2014 17:43:16 GMT -5
... I find it hard to blame any of the players when they're playing for Therrien ... Well, with that kind of vantage point, of course Therrien will always come out looking badly: anything that goes wrong seems to be his fault, and anything that goes right is because the players finally delivered. As to his unwillingness to break up the top line or various other options, if he wants the team to buy in, he can't be moving guys aside too quickly. Right now, even Desharnais knows that he got his chances, and didn't produce, so something else had to be tried. Just half a dozen games ago, he'd be thinking "OK, I haven't produced, but we're doing really well in the standings, why should I be pushed aside?" Coaches can't have too many guys on the team questioning their choices, that's when coaches lose the room... so they'll be conservative, and before moving a veteran out of his role, they'll get more chances than most fans want to see, but that's the nature of the business.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Dec 9, 2014 18:18:04 GMT -5
The reality of it all for me is that you probably have 4 guys there (Allen, Weaver, Gonchar, Dilbert) who likely won't get another NHL contract after their current one is done... That is no depth... …that’s crowding the anteroom of a retirement home because you’re not sure if they may be going back in time!!! Or yeah it's kind of a Bouillon/Murray/Drewiski depth that, even if you have it, you'll probably never turn to in the playoff and call up a kid instead... it’s vapordepth that any team with too much cap or willing to trade a bad contract can get. One of them far in your depth chart is depth… 4 of them on board with 3 dressed everynight… it’s bad…
On Emelin, BC warned us last summer that we were all getting too hung up on this right/left dmen thingy… what do you know, he was right! Emelin isn’t any better or worst despite the side… that said, he might not be having a monster of a season but he still has more than twice the hits as the next dmen in that category…
…I’d definitely have Beaulieu and Tinordi up and playing this season. Next summer 3 guys can't be sent down without clearing waiver (Beaulieu, Tinordi, Pateryn), not to mention Nygren who certainly won't be coming to North America to play another AHL season... that makes breaking in 4 kids on D for 2015... almost an impossible task... ...or losing them for nothing... Berg has to smell the coffee.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 9, 2014 21:36:13 GMT -5
... I find it hard to blame any of the players when they're playing for Therrien ... Well, with that kind of vantage point, of course Therrien will always come out looking badly: anything that goes wrong seems to be his fault, and anything that goes right is because the players finally delivered. Naaaah ... I wasn't suggesting this whatsoever ... I provided some explanations later, but you chose to leave them out ... I pretty much suggested the same thing in another thread ... once I heard Desharnais' and Pacioretty's comments I found it odd because we don't normally hear Habs players making comments like that and that concerns me ... I guess it wasn't necessarily said as a judgment as it was more a comment ... Therrien can't ignore that just the same ... I talked about how the team looks different and you talk about breaking up lines ... as an outsider looking, and in keeping what you're suggesting, I think Therrien's constant jostling makes it hard to get buy-in ... and I'm only thinking of this now, but I think I remember the same thing happening last year before our club went on that late playoff run ... they got hot at the right time ... hope we see this again, but until that happens I honestly think it's tough to blame the players ... there have been a few gaffs, sure, Allen is slow and I think BC (and someone else) pointed out that Emelin's play has ebbed of late ... but I find right now that they look different as a team ... and I think Therrien's approach to business might be a major factor (no inside info, just an opinion) ... Cheers.
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Post by stoat on Dec 10, 2014 0:24:05 GMT -5
One deal worth reviewing is the gorges for a 2nd rounder. In hindsight, have we truly replaced Gorges on the ice and could we still use him in a leadership role? So far I'd have to say the answer to that is no (replacement wise). Gilbert has been inconsistent and the way the team has played in some crucial games has left a lot to be desired. So while I'm a Berg backer, I feel obligated to point out moves that haven't worked out. Has the savings in cap space (Gilbert vs Gorges) really been worth it? Now we haven't used up that draft choice, but if it doesn't turn into a top 4 or 5 dman or a 2nd line forward it may not have been worth it. We'll also have to see if the Cap space allows us to get that guy who'll make the difference. Don't feel obligated. Bergevin isn't reading it. First, Gilbert has been playing better offensively and defensively. Second, he's paid less than Gorges. Third, he plays on the right side and shoots right. We'll see about the second-round draft choice (who doesn't count against the cap).
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Post by Skilly on Dec 10, 2014 11:34:07 GMT -5
If the Habs are serious about winning this year, then they have to play Beau and Tinner. Without them, the defense is simply beer league quality. With them , we compete.
Why MB/MT refuse to ice the best possible team is beyond me. For 2 years we had the center of the future, and we poked him on the wing. If last night was any indication, (and I'm trying really hard not to get overly excited after one game) then the habs better give themselves a good head shaking if they ever think about moving Galchenyuk from his natural position again. Having said that, I think Berg should now see the gaping hole on the wing though and make that his number one deadline priority.
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Post by seventeen on Dec 10, 2014 16:10:26 GMT -5
I was really pleasantly surprised at how well Galchenyuk adapted to the centre spot. His faceoff percentage was strong, his defensive awareness was good and that line showed some beginning chemistry, though it wasn't yet magical. I noticed a couple of times where Patches, Galchy and Gally weren't quite on the same wavelength, but it won't take long for them to get used to each other's foibles. Having Galchy be able to attack up the middle of the ice is a marvelous thing to watch. Someone else mentioned that he needs to slow down and I couldn't agree more. It's like he's on speed at times, whacking away. A bit more relaxation and those missed shots will go in. It's a much better problem to have than trying to ramp someone up (not mentioning any names).
Funny, in one discussion on a sports station about "what is wrong with the Habs" after they had that losing streak, one guy mentioned they just weren't strong enough at centre. Have to agree. We weren't. Notice the past tense. I'm comfortable with Galchy at #1, Pleks and Eller as 2A and 2B and Malhotra at 4. I know that doesn't leave room for DD, but those are our top 3 offensive and two way centres. DD can't match up with Galchenyuk. Galchy wins more one on one battles, is equally creative (or more so) and as good a passer, but a much better shooter. He threatens the opposition much more than DD does. And it also appears Galchy is better defensively. He keeps up his 60% faceoff percentage and I might trust him with 8 seconds to go for a key faceoff. Eller and Pleks round out a suddenly decent corp if we're not expecting them to be strong number 2's.
But, as Skilly has said, now that Galchy has shown for certain that he belongs in the middle, it poses some serious issues for Berg on the wings. We don't have a true #1 right winger and we don't have what I would consider adequate left or right wingers on the second line. Sekac might fill one of the roles and Gallagher would fill one, if he wasn't up on the first line. If Berg can pick up a good first line right winger, they can either be put on the second line to boost it (especially if the first line develops serious chemistry) or move them onto the #1 line and have Gally on the 2nd line. The 4th line is good and one can mix and match Pleks and Eller with various wingers. I'd like to see Parenteau do more and maybe he can with the right linemates. So, Berg has a clear mandate...a strong right winger.
Then one can cringe a little when looking at the defense. Have to cut down the ice time on the oldies. Which means Emelin has to play much better, or Berg has to acquire a guy who can be a #4 dman on a good team. Gee, how long have we been asking for improvement in those two areas?
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