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Post by jkr on Jan 26, 2016 15:05:37 GMT -5
It 's over how do you expect a team that hasn't won back to back games in 2 months to win 2/3rds of their remaining games Price or no Price. Unfortunately they can't blow it up because they are a tweener team with 5 pieces good in place blow it up now you risk blowing it up for a long long time. Blowing it up would be moving one of our 5 young core guys I doubt they do that but they may have too if they can't get anything for their spare parts. MB is at a cross roads he didn't want to be at ....worst thing to happen was the good result in the shortened season had they not had such a good year a decent pick maybe even a C would have fallen in MB's lap. Four years later he is in the worse place than when he started given his cap issues and aging players under contract. This season is lost but can MB make the deals to right the ship next year..we'll see. If you blow it up there may be collateral damage. Depending on who is handling the explosives they could lose some valuable parts.
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Post by del on Jan 26, 2016 15:06:43 GMT -5
Molson keeps Bergevin and Therrien, but fools the team into thinking they have been fired and replaced by the new guys ... Marchel Bergetherr and MicharcTherriberg
I wonder how long it will take the team to figure out this sly deception.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jan 26, 2016 15:11:25 GMT -5
We get beaten by the Blue Jackets…and we're going to let them get Auston Matthews, too? So they can kick our butts for years to come??? Let's at least be great at tanking… The next time I hear Bergevin say, "It's on me!", it better be in a bar. [/mini-rant] You can't fire all the players and normally it's the coach who goes but when Bergevin says, "it's on me" he has to go. Please get some high picks and Drouin and Mantha for Eller,, Plekanec, Desharnais and (xxx). Feel free to fill in anyone other than Pacioretty, Gallagher, Carr, Galchenyuk and Paul. Subban is our best defenseman but he is far from his former Norris self. If it is injury and he is still a nine million dollar man, let him heal. The power play should consist of four forwards and one defenseman. Markov is a better fit in Washington than here. This is the darkest day for a 69 year old fan including Grundman and Savard and Houle and Gomez and Roy! The GM and Couch both admit they don't know what to do to turn it around. In the words of General Custer, "stay the course". Not sure I trust Timmins to pick fruit in Sobeys.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 26, 2016 15:15:25 GMT -5
Do you think he'll ever get 50 points again? I'm trying to anticipate what kind of player will succeed in tomorrow's NHL. That changes, of course, but big, tough guys are not as valuable as quick, skilled guys any more. The issue I have with DD is that we lose the puck an awful lot after each time he touches it. You don't get much time and space anymore, so you have to find ways to create it, by being big and strong (Chara) or quick and shifty (P. Kane and J. Gaudreau). DD obviously falls into the latter category, but isn't as quick or shifty as either of the two examples. He has good vision and is a good passer, but isn't given opportunities to display those because everyone else has gotten faster and strong and he doesn't get the time and space anymore. He used to win more battles than he does now.
DD and Gallagher are pretty close in size (both small), but Gallagher wins way more board battles. He's stronger. If DD was as strong, he'd be putting up 60-70 points, not 40 and falling. I'm basing his salary on a 40 point guy and less and you're using 50 and up. Both arguments makes sense, depending on what he produces. That terrible defensive game is still a huge problem, though.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jan 26, 2016 15:37:51 GMT -5
1. Announce Carey Price will have surgery and/or will be shut down for the rest of the year.
2. Be sellers at the deadline. Pleks would have been a great dump as a pending UFA, but his 2 years at $6 million and NTC makes him considerably harder to move. Failing that, I would try and move Desharnais and/or Emelin (another bad contract with a NTC).
3. Play out the string and go from there. If Therrien can't get these guys to play simple defensive zone coverages and initiate controlled zone exits... then what good is he? I'm fine with Bergevin saying what he did, but we can't go into next year with the same team...
The problem is the same team is locked up through next year. Weise and Fleischmann are the only pure UFAs up front and our entire blue line is under contract through next year. I don't think Berg can simply roll out the same team and the same coach after a debacle like this.
Perfect scenario: We can find takers for Plekanec and Emelin, and we use the $10 million to sign Stamkos in the summer.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 26, 2016 15:46:07 GMT -5
Yup, I'm all for that. Send in your resume, BH.
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Post by habsburgher on Jan 26, 2016 16:00:15 GMT -5
Draft players with BOTH size and speed. It amazes me we play the cycle down low with this group of forwards. Beyond that we MUST draft better as we really do not have a lot of tradeable assets.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 26, 2016 16:08:40 GMT -5
We get beaten by the Blue Jackets…and we're going to let them get Auston Matthews, too? So they can kick our butts for years to come??? Let's at least be great at tanking… The next time I hear Bergevin say, "It's on me!", it better be in a bar. [/mini-rant] You can't fire all the players and normally it's the coach who goes but when Bergevin says, "it's on me" he has to go. Please get some high picks and Drouin and Mantha for Eller,, Plekanec, Desharnais and (xxx). Feel free to fill in anyone other than Pacioretty, Gallagher, Carr, Galchenyuk and Paul. Subban is our best defenseman but he is far from his former Norris self. If it is injury and he is still a nine million dollar man, let him heal. The power play should consist of four forwards and one defenseman. Markov is a better fit in Washington than here. This is the darkest day for a 69 year old fan including Grundman and Savard and Houle and Gomez and Roy! The GM and Couch both admit they don't know what to do to turn it around. In the words of General Custer, "stay the course". Not sure I trust Timmins to pick fruit in Sobeys. See, that's the problem. Molson gave Bergevin an extension til 2022. Bergevin gave Therrien an extension. They both owe Carey Price commission, AFAIC. And Molson owes Price dividends….. An absolute disgrace.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 27, 2016 8:51:50 GMT -5
1. Announce Carey Price will have surgery and/or will be shut down for the rest of the year. 2. Be sellers at the deadline. Pleks would have been a great dump as a pending UFA, but his 2 years at $6 million and NTC makes him considerably harder to move. Failing that, I would try and move Desharnais and/or Emelin (another bad contract with a NTC). 3. Play out the string and go from there. If Therrien can't get these guys to play simple defensive zone coverages and initiate controlled zone exits... then what good is he? I'm fine with Bergevin saying what he did, but we can't go into next year with the same team... The problem is the same team is locked up through next year. Weise and Fleischmann are the only pure UFAs up front and our entire blue line is under contract through next year. I don't think Berg can simply roll out the same team and the same coach after a debacle like this. Perfect scenario: We can find takers for Plekanec and Emelin, and we use the $10 million to sign Stamkos in the summer. Yup, I'm all for that. Send in your resume, BH. Seconded ... just a few things to add ... it won't make a difference firing Therrien at this point unless Bergevin can bring in a starting goaltender ... I mentioned in another thread that it seemed every time the Blue Jackets had a scoring chance they buried it and watching Condon's reaction as if to say, "oh man ... I should have had that one," is getting harder and harder to watch ... heck, Cristobal Huet would let in one weak goal a game, but I'd take him right now ... the only other thing I'd add is finding out what the distractions are in the dressing room ... losing games isn't the only distraction but, keeping the " Carey-Price-is-out-for-a-bit-longer" hanging over the team's head can't help either ... that story is now getting just announce that he's out for the remainder of the season and move on ... that would be a start, anyway ... Cheers.
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Post by duster on Jan 27, 2016 14:20:22 GMT -5
There is a part of me that hopes Bergevin is shrewd enough to realize that now is the time to start preparing for next year. I'm not optimistic. I can only hope he doesn't do something really damaging like trade Galchenyuk...
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 27, 2016 16:09:46 GMT -5
What will MT do when Gilbert comes back... sit Beau?
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Post by seventeen on Jan 27, 2016 17:28:59 GMT -5
That would be my guess.
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Post by habsorbed on Jan 27, 2016 23:59:12 GMT -5
At this point, I believe it is pointless to keep harping on MT's uselessness. He is a bad coach. and worse yet he destroys players. If you're not blessed with enormous talent and self confidence you are going to be damaged by MT unless you are a pet. I see nothing in any game plan, line formations, in-game strategy, or motivational inspiration that gives me any comfort. in fact he is dreadful in all those critical areas . I just don't see what he brings except being loyal to the guy who gave him his job. I sure know he is incapable of developing any power play despite some great talent. My focus is now on MB. I've come to the conclusion that he's a smooth talker with some charisma. But ultimately he's a coward who is afraid to make a big decision. He will not pull the trigger on any big move. It's easy to call a presser and say it's all on him. What's going to happen to him. He's got a guaranteed multi-million dollar contract. He knows Molson isn't going to fire him and even if Molson did, MB is laughing all the way to the bank. I don't see why people are enamoured with his presser. It's all a shell game to avoid making a major decision which he is adverse to and incapable of. And i don't care that MT is loyal or MB would share a bunker with him. That is not on my list of criteria for a head coach. I want a coach who is knowledgeable about hockey and knows how to handle players. I guess the strategy is to let the team tank, get a high draft and then let Carey take over next year. Gee, that's leadership
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jan 28, 2016 9:26:04 GMT -5
I guess the strategy is to let the team tank, get a high draft and then let Carey take over next year. Gee, that's leadership Well, you have to play the hand as it's dealt. Right now I'm not putting too much stock in Bergevin's endorsement of Therrien. What else is he supposed to say? I suspect Berg really does like MT and wants to have his back, but at some point he will be forced to do something. It doesn't have to be this year. The next big decision point is the trade deadline. Price looks like he's nowhere close to coming back, which is a good thing for Berg because he can't use that as an excuse. But he can use the deadline to try and get out from some contracts and players who we don't need to win a Cup - I would put Plekanec, Emelin, and Desharnais at the top of the list. More than anything (besides a new coach), Bergevin needs some flexibility. Barring any activity, the only UFAs this summer are Weise, Fleischmann, and Gilbert, amounting to all of $4.5 million in cap space. Berg has doubled down on this roster next year. But if this ends badly, does Berg really think he can simply roll out the same coach and the same team in 2016-17 and say that all they need is a healthy Carey Price? I suppose he'll say that, but I don't think he will believe it. Not after this debacle. So I would call it "strategic tanking". Accept that this year is toast, and take the opportunity at the deadline to clear out some players and contracts that won't help us down the road. Regroup, reload, and live to fight another day.
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Post by madhabber on Jan 28, 2016 10:19:57 GMT -5
I guess the strategy is to let the team tank, get a high draft and then let Carey take over next year. Gee, that's leadership Well, you have to play the hand as it's dealt. Right now I'm not putting too much stock in Bergevin's endorsement of Therrien. What else is he supposed to say? I suspect Berg really does like MT and wants to have his back, but at some point he will be forced to do something. It doesn't have to be this year. The next big decision point is the trade deadline. Price looks like he's nowhere close to coming back, which is a good thing for Berg because he can't use that as an excuse. But he can use the deadline to try and get out from some contracts and players who we don't need to win a Cup - I would put Plekanec, Emelin, and Desharnais at the top of the list. More than anything (besides a new coach), Bergevin needs some flexibility. Barring any activity, the only UFAs this summer are Weise, Fleischmann, and Gilbert, amounting to all of $4.5 million in cap space. Berg has doubled down on this roster next year. But if this ends badly, does Berg really think he can simply roll out the same coach and the same team in 2016-17 and say that all they need is a healthy Carey Price? I suppose he'll say that, but I don't think he will believe it. Not after this debacle. So I would call it "strategic tanking". Accept that this year is toast, and take the opportunity at the deadline to clear out some players and contracts that won't help us down the road. Regroup, reload, and live to fight another day. I would actually add the name of almost every other Hab except Gallagher, Price, Patch and McCarron to the list of players available at the deadline. Make me an offer. We'll even take a bad expiring contract if that facilitates things. If you don't offer enough for PK or Galch, then we'll keep him or counter offer with Petry or Eller. We'll play whoever is left until the end of the season and rebuild on the fly with a clean slate if that's what's left. We just have to bring in a new core of veterans and not the same bunch of cream puffs.
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Post by jkr on Jan 28, 2016 10:58:52 GMT -5
Well, you have to play the hand as it's dealt. Right now I'm not putting too much stock in Bergevin's endorsement of Therrien. What else is he supposed to say? I suspect Berg really does like MT and wants to have his back, but at some point he will be forced to do something. It doesn't have to be this year. The next big decision point is the trade deadline. Price looks like he's nowhere close to coming back, which is a good thing for Berg because he can't use that as an excuse. But he can use the deadline to try and get out from some contracts and players who we don't need to win a Cup - I would put Plekanec, Emelin, and Desharnais at the top of the list. More than anything (besides a new coach), Bergevin needs some flexibility. Barring any activity, the only UFAs this summer are Weise, Fleischmann, and Gilbert, amounting to all of $4.5 million in cap space. Berg has doubled down on this roster next year. But if this ends badly, does Berg really think he can simply roll out the same coach and the same team in 2016-17 and say that all they need is a healthy Carey Price? I suppose he'll say that, but I don't think he will believe it. Not after this debacle. So I would call it "strategic tanking". Accept that this year is toast, and take the opportunity at the deadline to clear out some players and contracts that won't help us down the road. Regroup, reload, and live to fight another day. I would actually add the name of almost every other Hab except Gallagher, Price, Patch and McCarron to the list of players available at the deadline. Make me an offer. We'll even take a bad expiring contract if that facilitates things. If you don't offer enough for PK or Galch, then we'll keep him or counter offer with Petry or Eller. We'll play whoever is left until the end of the season and rebuild on the fly with a clean slate if that's what's left. We just have to bring in a new core of veterans and not the same bunch of cream puffs. I would add Subban to your list of guys not to trade. He is the leading scorer and the best skater on the team. On top of that he's one of the few on this roster that look like they are embarassed by the state of the club. Who do they have that can take his minutes?
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Post by mikeg on Jan 28, 2016 11:00:37 GMT -5
I think he backed himself into a corner by:
1) Extending MT before he had to. Any reasonable/intelligent person knew that MT would not be a hot commodity on the coaching market.
2) Having no plan/prepared answer for the obvious questions. I.E. MT`s job security, MT`s coaching decisions. And if "it's all on me" was him, his PR team and braintrust came up with than they all deserve to go.
3) Failing at all levels to address the biggest organizational need which is size down the middle. He drafted Chucky, and handed him off to MT without any instructions. And he has sat by while seeing the cornerstone of his rebuild get flattened by a semi-sentient hardhead of a coach.
He can speak all he wants of character, but character is just a piece in a puzzle. The problem is that he seems to value it more than the other pieces combined which is so myopic and frustrating.
Beyond Bergy, but not outside of his control there are other issues with the club. On 690 yesterday they listed the amount of picks vs players in the NHL with at least 100 games played drafted since 2008. The habs had something like 3 in 31, which was among the lowest ratios in the league. The highest? The Blackhawks with something like 13 in 41.
Bergy obviously was not there for most of the time...but... one guy who isn't getting enough criticism is Trevor Timmins. He has never addressed the team's major problem which is size/skill down the middle. Too often we have gone small and skill, over big and potential. Someone is pushing this on the GM, and I can only assume it is Timmins, because he is the one constant in the entire size down the middle issue.
Another issue completely under Bergy's control... Lefebvre coaching the AHL team. Not only are the guys they are drafting not being developed by a competent coach in the NHL, but down in the farm they are getting MT lite. Why has this not been adressed by Bergy yet? It's been what, 4 years now? WHo has he developed exactly? How well has he done with what he has been given? It makes no sense....
A lot was made when Bergy was hired about all the people he brought on board. Pro scouts, european scouts, assitants, by all accounts smart people. However, 3 years later what are the results? Grinders, nothing but grinders taking roster spots of kids you drafted and need to develop and it feels like there is no end in sight.
It's desolate really... long term I don't have any hope with the braintrust as it is currently composed. I can only imagine that Geoff Mol$on right now is feeling tremendous pressure and being pulled in a few directions. My devil on the shoulder feedback for him would be: Fire everyone right now. Hire Pierre Mcguire like you originally should have done, hire a former Hab as an interim head coach (Robinson ideally) and start the 2016/17 with the best coach money can buy, and one clear goal of developing the best 1 through 4 center iceman possible. You have the goalie, you have the d-corps, and you have the wingers. Enough with grinders and midgets.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 28, 2016 11:10:32 GMT -5
I think he backed himself into a corner by: 1) Extending MT before he had to. Any reasonable/intelligent person knew that MT would not be a hot commodity on the coaching market. 2) Having no plan/prepared answer for the obvious questions. I.E. MT`s job security, MT`s coaching decisions. And if "it's all on me" was him, his PR team and braintrust came up with than they all deserve to go. 3) Failing at all levels to address the biggest organizational need which is size down the middle. He drafted Chucky, and handed him off to MT without any instructions. And he has sat by while seeing the cornerstone of his rebuild get flattened by a semi-sentient hardhead of a coach. He can speak all he wants of character, but character is just a piece in a puzzle. The problem is that he seems to value it more than the other pieces combined which is so myopic and frustrating. Beyond Bergy, but not outside of his control there are other issues with the club. On 690 yesterday they listed the amount of picks vs players in the NHL with at least 100 games played drafted since 2008. The habs had something like 3 in 31, which was among the lowest ratios in the league. The highest? The Blackhawks with something like 13 in 41. Bergy obviously was not there for most of the time...but... one guy who isn't getting enough criticism is Trevor Timmins. He has never addressed the team's major problem which is size/skill down the middle. Too often we have gone small and skill, over big and potential. Someone is pushing this on the GM, and I can only assume it is Timmins, because he is the one constant in the entire size down the middle issue. Another issue completely under Bergy's control... Lefebvre coaching the AHL team. Not only are the guys they are drafting not being developed by a competent coach in the NHL, but down in the farm they are getting MT lite. Why has this not been adressed by Bergy yet? It's been what, 4 years now? WHo has he developed exactly? How well has he done with what he has been given? It makes no sense.... A lot was made when Bergy was hired about all the people he brought on board. Pro scouts, european scouts, assitants, by all accounts smart people. However, 3 years later what are the results? Grinders, nothing but grinders taking roster spots of kids you drafted and need to develop and it feels like there is no end in sight. It's desolate really... long term I don't have any hope with the braintrust as it is currently composed. I can only imagine that Geoff Mol$on right now is feeling tremendous pressure and being pulled in a few directions. My devil on the shoulder feedback for him would be: Fire everyone right now. Hire Pierre Mcguire like you originally should have done, hire a former Hab as an interim head coach (Robinson ideally) and start the 2016/17 with the best coach money can buy, and one clear goal of developing the best 1 through 4 center iceman possible. You have the goalie, you have the d-corps, and you have the wingers. Enough with grinders and midgets. Great post bud... won't happen but you hit the nail on the head. I for one am really disappointed that the brain trust cannot or refuses to do something about the obvious flaws in the coaching staff at both levels.
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Post by del on Jan 28, 2016 12:16:31 GMT -5
I think we can all agree on this:
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Post by franko on Jan 28, 2016 13:02:03 GMT -5
I think we can all agree on this: funny memory: the number 15. it comes from last year: 15-1-1. I'm not saying the Habs are going to go 15-1-1 and stun their way into the playoffs . . . but it is possible that they start winning (stop laughing!!!) and find their way in. or just miss, a lá the TML all those years. I know I know I KNOW it would be best for the Habs to continue their awful play . . . but after careful consideration I just can't hope that happens. these are the Habs, for goodness sake! a team with history! a team with pride (at least at one time)! so, gents (and ladies), I'll be cheering for wins and agonizing over losses in the days ahead. I'm staying firmly on the bandwagon of hope.
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Post by mikeg on Jan 28, 2016 13:08:43 GMT -5
I think we can all agree on this: funny memory: the number 15. it comes from last year: 15-1-1. I'm not saying the Habs are going to go 15-1-1 and stun their way into the playoffs . . . but it is possible that they start winning (stop laughing!!!) and find their way in. or just miss, a lá the TML all those years. I know I know I KNOW it would be best for the Habs to continue their awful play . . . but after careful consideration I just can't hope that happens. these are the Habs, for goodness sake! a team with history! a team with pride (at least at one time)! so, gents (and ladies), I'll be cheering for wins and agonizing over losses in the days ahead. I'm staying firmly on the bandwagon of hope. I'll take 2 of whatever Franko is having.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 28, 2016 13:10:26 GMT -5
I think he backed himself into a corner by: 1) Extending MT before he had to. Any reasonable/intelligent person knew that MT would not be a hot commodity on the coaching market. I don't know him from Adam, but I find Marc Bergevin to be reasonable and intelligent ... You've mentioned both Trevor Timmins and Sylvain Lefebvre, which fuels the old argument from back in the day ... is this a development problem or a drafting problem ... the organization has both Charles Hudon and Mike McCarron being groomed as centres ... Hudon didn't look out of place in his short stint in the show, but McCarron actually looked confused and lost ... how does that happen if both coaches are preaching the same system ... is McCarron not what they expected or is he still developing into the grinder the organization seems to covet ... honestly, Mike, I wouldn't mind seeing both Therrien and Therrien lite gondi ... Cheers.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 28, 2016 13:13:14 GMT -5
... so, gents (and ladies), I'll be cheering for wins and agonizing over losses in the days ahead. I'm staying firmly on the bandwagon of hope. I'd be lying if I told you otherwise ... make room for me, then ... still very frustrated with this whole mess ... it's the worst I've seen a Habs team play in recent memory ... even the teams that failed to make the playoffs 3-straight years didn't look as resigned to their fate as these guys do ... Cheers.
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Post by blny on Jan 28, 2016 13:28:56 GMT -5
I don't want to go on some streak and get in, or just get in. The warts won't be removed.
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Post by franko on Jan 28, 2016 13:46:47 GMT -5
I don't want to go on some streak and get in, or just get in. The warts won't be removed. you're absolutely right. but I just can't cheer against them. and while you are again absolutely right in saying short term pain for long term gain . . . I just can't cheer against them. so while I know that in the long run continuing the dive to the bottom is a good thing, and while I know that I'll be happy with one of those good picks should the dive continue, and while I know that it would be only one season that we wind up behind the Leafs (ugh!) . . . I just can't cheer against them.
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Post by blny on Jan 28, 2016 13:49:59 GMT -5
I don't want to go on some streak and get in, or just get in. The warts won't be removed. you're absolutely right. but I just can't cheer against them. and while you are again absolutely right in saying short term pain for long term gain . . . I just can't cheer against them. so while I know that in the long run continuing the dive to the bottom is a good thing, and while I know that I'll be happy with one of those good picks should the dive continue, and while I know that it would be only one season that we wind up behind the Leafs (ugh!) . . . I just can't cheer against them. I'm cheering for the draft and change. So I'm cheering for the best of the logo.
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Post by franko on Jan 28, 2016 22:38:45 GMT -5
maybe the team needs to go out bowling.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 29, 2016 9:33:35 GMT -5
maybe the team needs to go out bowling. lol thats friggin hilarious... team building at it's finest
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Post by madhabber on Jan 29, 2016 10:29:20 GMT -5
It was suggested on L'antichambre the other night by Langdeau sort of like a joke. Carbo was sitting next to him and gave him a half roll of the eyes then they dropped the subject.
I don't think they are considering it.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 29, 2016 10:30:05 GMT -5
you're absolutely right. but I just can't cheer against them. and while you are again absolutely right in saying short term pain for long term gain . . . I just can't cheer against them. so while I know that in the long run continuing the dive to the bottom is a good thing, and while I know that I'll be happy with one of those good picks should the dive continue, and while I know that it would be only one season that we wind up behind the Leafs (ugh!) . . . I just can't cheer against them. I'm cheering for the draft and change. So I'm cheering for the best of the logo. That's my mindset. I want to be able to cheer for them with less "hope" and more "confidence" behind it. Or I WILL cheer against them...by no longer wasting my time.... If we fail to win a Cup with Price in his prime....I think I'll be done....
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