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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 12, 2016 10:53:35 GMT -5
If you want to see how tanking is supposed to work just look at the Leafs ... they're dead-last in the league right now and they've purged their lineup ... and, at least from the Leaf fans I've talked to, the fan base is okay with it ... I think that's the difference, there ... if the fans are okay with it then it's easier to implement Operation Tank ... however, unlike Toronto, the problem in Montreal is that they have several core pieces and I can't see the majority of fans supporting a tank ... that's the way I see it, anyway ... Cheers. The other thing that the Leafs fans believe, is that their GM actually knows what he is doing and has a plan for building the team. Not sure, many Montreal fans would say the same thing this year. Probably, but I think he has a plan and that might have to do with developing the existing talent pool ... like you, I can't predict the future, but I see Charles Hudon eventually making the team, as well as Nikita Scherbak ... as BC pointed out, I think a lot of the talent is already with the club ... however, the majority of that talent was drafted by Bob Gainey/Pierre Gauthier ... in that context, I'd agree with you in that, Bergevin has yet to leave his mark on the core of the club ... I don't know, man ... I don't see Bergevin doing anything stupid ... he doesn't strike me as a flincher and, besides, he has the respect of his peers around the league ... Cheers.
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Post by mikeg on Feb 12, 2016 11:38:36 GMT -5
Time to Shut Down your roster. MaxPac looks off… shut him down. PK looks like he may hurt something… shut him down. Gally's hand really does not look great… shut him down. Hand the reigns to Chucky as your number 1 center and let him learn while the ship sinks for a top 3 lottery pick.
This is elementary tank 101. THe fanbase is for it, the media is for it. Everyone wants this. The only ones that don't seem to get it is management. MT seems like he's already got his bags packed. Just bite the bullet and go all in for the tank.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 12, 2016 11:43:40 GMT -5
AS I mentioned once before, why waste a good crisis?
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Post by mikeg on Feb 12, 2016 11:52:07 GMT -5
AS I mentioned once before, why waste a good crisis? This is the perfect opportunity for an "on the fly" rebuild. Great teams do this across all sports. You realize you don't have a chance, and you just say screw it, let's suck and re-tool for next year and at the same time set yourself up for the decade... It makes no sense to me why they are not doing this, and why they have not fully committed to it. No sense...
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Post by franko on Feb 12, 2016 12:00:00 GMT -5
Probably, but I think he has a plan and that might have to do with developing the existing talent pool ... like you, I can't predict the future, but I see Charles Hudon eventually making the team, as well as Nikita Scherbak ... as BC pointed out, I think a lot of the talent is already with the club ...
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Post by BadCompany on Feb 12, 2016 12:04:07 GMT -5
AS I mentioned once before, why waste a good crisis? This is the perfect opportunity for an "on the fly" rebuild. Great teams do this across all sports. You realize you don't have a chance, and you just say screw it, let's suck and re-tool for next year and at the same time set yourself up for the decade... It makes no sense to me why they are not doing this, and why they have not fully committed to it. No sense... Well you could argue that this is in fact what they are doing. Tanking not-so-accidentally. Not getting a better goalie, not firing the coach, not getting a top six forward, playing the crap out of a bad center at the expense of others… I mean, if you wanted to tank this would be the way to do it, no? Next steps would be to trade players for what seems like nothing, like Kassian and Tinordi… People say they want a tank, but they don't really. We've been tanking for 8 weeks now and people are freaking on Bergevin for not doing anything to stop it. What if this is in fact the tank? What if they knew Price wasn't coming back, and that Jonathon Bernier, or James Reimer, or Cam Ward, or whoever, would not be the Cup solution, that Therrien had no clue, that the top six was horribly broken? What if they knew all this and made the deliberate decision to do nothing and let Rome burn? Pick up the top pick and come back next year all the better for it? This is what a tank looks like, and it's not pretty. And it gets worse. Careful what you wish for, and all that. (having said that, I don't think they are deliberately trying to tank)
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Post by mikeg on Feb 12, 2016 12:22:22 GMT -5
Now they're just having fun messing with us... feels like some kind of cold war news disinformation campaign here
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Post by Skilly on Feb 12, 2016 12:29:54 GMT -5
This is the perfect opportunity for an "on the fly" rebuild. Great teams do this across all sports. You realize you don't have a chance, and you just say screw it, let's suck and re-tool for next year and at the same time set yourself up for the decade... It makes no sense to me why they are not doing this, and why they have not fully committed to it. No sense... Well you could argue that this is in fact what they are doing. Tanking not-so-accidentally. Not getting a better goalie, not firing the coach, not getting a top six forward, playing the crap out of a bad center at the expense of others… I mean, if you wanted to tank this would be the way to do it, no? Next steps would be to trade players for what seems like nothing, like Kassian and Tinordi… People say they want a tank, but they don't really. We've been tanking for 8 weeks now and people are freaking on Bergevin for not doing anything to stop it. What if this is in fact the tank? What if they knew Price wasn't coming back, and that Jonathon Bernier, or James Reimer, or Cam Ward, or whoever, would not be the Cup solution, that Therrien had no clue, that the top six was horribly broken? What if they knew all this and made the deliberate decision to do nothing and let Rome burn? Pick up the top pick and come back next year all the better for it? This is what a tank looks like, and it's not pretty. And it gets worse. Careful what you wish for, and all that. (having said that, I don't think they are deliberately trying to tank)yeah but the problem is they've been playing the crap out of that bad center for three years now at the expense of others ... and when you tank, you don't get nothing back for players you trade, you try to accumulate picks, unless it is a total salary dump. Bergevin picked up Scrivens for Kassian. Why? If he wanted to tank, why not leave the Condon and Tokarski combo alone. Why not bring up Eddie Pasquale or Fucale? The Habs needed a goalie to stop the bleeding, if we were tanking he would have let up bleed out. He traded Tinordi for Barkly. Why? If he wanted to tank, why not play the crap out of our presumably worse defenseman. Why was he letting Tyrion bench him after every mistake? I agree with you that this is a deliberate decision. But the decision is to tinker on the edges, hoping that they squeak in the playoffs. No one was screaming for Bergevin to do something to stop the losing, well we were, at the beginning when the season was still salvageable, but he did nothing. But when we thought the full out tank was on, most got very comfortable with it, almost excited about the future prospects. But once again, Bergevin doesn't embrace it, and now we are in limbo
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 12, 2016 13:15:51 GMT -5
Probably, but I think he has a plan and that might have to do with developing the existing talent pool ... like you, I can't predict the future, but I see Charles Hudon eventually making the team, as well as Nikita Scherbak ... as BC pointed out, I think a lot of the talent is already with the club ... I know, mate ... I had both Therrien and Lefebvre mentioned in the original text, but I took it out because I wanted to focus on the prospects ... but, I do agree with you ... I very much dislike the way our coach handles younger players ... where I see his approach working, though, was his handling of PK Subban ... he scratched Subban from the lineup until the guy came around and Therrien didn't care how long it took ... it was the right approach with PK and he ended up winning a Norris Trophy after he got through his growing pains ... however, that approach doesn't necessarily work with every player because there's really only one PK "superstar-in-rent-a-car" Subban on the club ... I feel bad for Jared Tinordi because I don't know if it was a case of lousy development in the A or if it was just a case of bad drafting ... I know he did extremely well in his reconditioning stint in St John's, but that wasn't enough to draw any offers ... he remained with the club because he (probably) wouldn't have cleared waivers when being demoted, so they kept him in the press box in Montreal which did nothing for his trade value ... that said, I'm actually hoping he develops well in Arizona ... it would answer another question for me ... Cheers.
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Post by BadCompany on Feb 12, 2016 13:23:57 GMT -5
Well you could argue that this is in fact what they are doing. Tanking not-so-accidentally. Not getting a better goalie, not firing the coach, not getting a top six forward, playing the crap out of a bad center at the expense of others… I mean, if you wanted to tank this would be the way to do it, no? Next steps would be to trade players for what seems like nothing, like Kassian and Tinordi… People say they want a tank, but they don't really. We've been tanking for 8 weeks now and people are freaking on Bergevin for not doing anything to stop it. What if this is in fact the tank? What if they knew Price wasn't coming back, and that Jonathon Bernier, or James Reimer, or Cam Ward, or whoever, would not be the Cup solution, that Therrien had no clue, that the top six was horribly broken? What if they knew all this and made the deliberate decision to do nothing and let Rome burn? Pick up the top pick and come back next year all the better for it? This is what a tank looks like, and it's not pretty. And it gets worse. Careful what you wish for, and all that. (having said that, I don't think they are deliberately trying to tank)yeah but the problem is they've been playing the crap out of that bad center for three years now at the expense of others ... and when you tank, you don't get nothing back for players you trade, you try to accumulate picks, unless it is a total salary dump. Bergevin picked up Scrivens for Kassian. Why? If he wanted to tank, why not leave the Condon and Tokarski combo alone. Why not bring up Eddie Pasquale or Fucale? The Habs needed a goalie to stop the bleeding, if we were tanking he would have let up bleed out. He traded Tinordi for Barkly. Why? If he wanted to tank, why not play the crap out of our presumably worse defenseman. Why was he letting Tyrion bench him after every mistake? I agree with you that this is a deliberate decision. But the decision is to tinker on the edges, hoping that they squeak in the playoffs. No one was screaming for Bergevin to do something to stop the losing, well we were, at the beginning when the season was still salvageable, but he did nothing. But when we thought the full out tank was on, most got very comfortable with it, almost excited about the future prospects. But once again, Bergevin doesn't embrace it, and now we are in limbo Again, people say they want a tank, but in their very next breath will propose a half-a-dozen ways to make the team better right now.Why do people want Therrien to be fired ASAP? Because a new coach will come in and make the team play better, right? If you wanted to tank then you would be all for Bergevin guaranteeing Therrien his job for the rest of the year. Why do people want Galchenyuk to get Desharnais's minutes? Because Galchenyuk is better than Desharnais, and switching the two will make the team better, right? If you want to tank then you should be throwing Desharnais out there for as much as his little legs can handle. Why do (did) people want Pateryn and Tinordi in the lineup ahead of Gilbert and Emelin? Or Beaulieu to get Markov's minutes? Because the veterans suck and the kids would do better, right? If you want to tank then you would play the inferior guys at every opportunity, right? Why were people upset when Daniel Carr, one of our better scorers at the time, was sent to the minors? Because he was a better top six option than, say, Byron, right? If you wanted to tank you would send any AHL-eligible player that happened to be accidentally helping the team back to the minors, lest they do more damage/good than the tank warrants. Why did people agree with Michael Farber when he said that they should have gone after Reimer? Ignoring for the moment that this wasn't even a possibility, people still thought it was a good idea. Why? Because if Price was really and truly done for the year Reimer would have lead THIS team to the Cup? Of course not. If you want to tank you ignore any real goalies that are on the market, and you trade a top 9 forward for an AHL goalie. You then flip your existing AHL goalie for a potential top 9 forward. The end result of all those deals was that Bergevin flipped a top 9 forward and an AHL goalie (Kassian and Tokarski) for a potential top 9 forward and an AHL goalie (Scrivens and Friberg). Or if you eliminate the two AHL goalies, a top 9 forward for a prospect. Which is what tanking teams do, right? I'm not saying Friberg WILL be a top 9 forward, but again, you don't want to keep Kassian because he IS a top 9 forward, and that would go against the tank. You go for the prospect, right? Why are people proposing a million different line combinations? Why did they get so upset with Desharnais on the ice for three consecutive faceoffs at the end of the last game (even though Therrien could do nothing about that) ? Why do they want Drouin? Or a trade-and-sign for Stamkos? You can't make the team better and still tank. If you want to tank you can't get any players that would be good for the team, because every point could cost you a lottery spot. You can't have it both ways; you can't say I want the team to suck and then complain that the team is sucking and that they should be doing this, that, and the other thing to make it better... Again, I don't think they are deliberately tanking. But the truth is they ARE tanking, and people are furious about it. And want it to stop. Whether they admit it or not.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 12, 2016 13:31:36 GMT -5
Now they're just having fun messing with us... feels like some kind of cold war news disinformation campaign here In an article today, Lapresse suggests that the reason the Habs have been vague about Carey's return is all about marketing and $$$$. Hard to argue that isn't so. If all fans basically gave up on the year, the team would lose a lot of money. Merchandise sales will drop, ticket prices will experience downward pressure (or at least they'll have to forego planned price increases), etc. etc. There is a very small minority that has espoused giving up on this year and we're not concerned about Geoff Molson's standard of living.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 12, 2016 13:54:39 GMT -5
yeah but the problem is they've been playing the crap out of that bad center for three years now at the expense of others ... and when you tank, you don't get nothing back for players you trade, you try to accumulate picks, unless it is a total salary dump. Bergevin picked up Scrivens for Kassian. Why? If he wanted to tank, why not leave the Condon and Tokarski combo alone. Why not bring up Eddie Pasquale or Fucale? The Habs needed a goalie to stop the bleeding, if we were tanking he would have let up bleed out. He traded Tinordi for Barkly. Why? If he wanted to tank, why not play the crap out of our presumably worse defenseman. Why was he letting Tyrion bench him after every mistake? I agree with you that this is a deliberate decision. But the decision is to tinker on the edges, hoping that they squeak in the playoffs. No one was screaming for Bergevin to do something to stop the losing, well we were, at the beginning when the season was still salvageable, but he did nothing. But when we thought the full out tank was on, most got very comfortable with it, almost excited about the future prospects. But once again, Bergevin doesn't embrace it, and now we are in limbo Again, people say they want a tank, but in their very next breath will propose a half-a-dozen ways to make the team better right now.Why do people want Therrien to be fired ASAP? Because a new coach will come in and make the team play better, right? If you wanted to tank then you would be all for Bergevin guaranteeing Therrien his job for the rest of the year. Why do people want Galchenyuk to get Desharnais's minutes? Because Galchenyuk is better than Desharnais, and switching the two will make the team better, right? If you want to tank then you should be throwing Desharnais out there for as much as his little legs can handle. Why do (did) people want Pateryn and Tinordi in the lineup ahead of Gilbert and Emelin? Or Beaulieu to get Markov's minutes? Because the veterans suck and the kids would do better, right? If you want to tank then you would play the inferior guys at every opportunity, right? Why were people upset when Daniel Carr, one of our better scorers at the time, was sent to the minors? Because he was a better top six option than, say, Byron, right? If you wanted to tank you would send any AHL-eligible player that happened to be accidentally helping the team back to the minors, lest they do more damage/good than the tank warrants. Why did people agree with Michael Farber when he said that they should have gone after Reimer? Ignoring for the moment that this wasn't even a possibility, people still thought it was a good idea. Why? Because if Price was really and truly done for the year Reimer would have lead THIS team to the Cup? Of course not. If you want to tank you ignore any real goalies that are on the market, and you trade a top 9 forward for an AHL goalie. You then flip your existing AHL goalie for a potential top 9 forward. The end result of all those deals was that Bergevin flipped a top 9 forward and an AHL goalie (Kassian and Tokarski) for a potential top 9 forward and an AHL goalie (Scrivens and Friberg). Or if you eliminate the two AHL goalies, a top 9 forward for a prospect. Which is what tanking teams do, right? I'm not saying Friberg WILL be a top 9 forward, but again, you don't want to keep Kassian because he IS a top 9 forward, and that would go against the tank. You go for the prospect, right? Why are people proposing a million different line combinations? Why did they get so upset with Desharnais on the ice for three consecutive faceoffs at the end of the last game (even though Therrien could do nothing about that) ? Why do they want Drouin? Or a trade-and-sign for Stamkos? You can't make the team better and still tank. If you want to tank you can't get any players that would be good for the team, because every point could cost you a lottery spot. You can't have it both ways; you can't say I want the team to suck and then complain that the team is sucking and that they should be doing this, that, and the other thing to make it better... Again, I don't think they are deliberately tanking. But the truth is they ARE tanking, and people are furious about it. And want it to stop. Whether they admit it or not. There is indeed a lot of evidence your scenario is bang on. A couple of things come to mind though, in ways to handle the tank, without looking like a tank, but different from what is actually taking place. Firstly I'm in total agreement that playing DD as much as possible is a great way to tank. The problem I have is that I don't think they're doing it deliberately. He's been bad two years in a row and got the same treatment last year as this year. "Here are the keys to the city, David". They weren't tanking last year and I don't think playing DD is a deliberate tanking strategy on their part. He and Therrien have some special bond that can't be broken without the two of them being lineup-otomized. There are some benefits to replacing Therrien and cleaning out some contracts right now. No doubt the new coach will implement better structure and a better system than MT, but it takes time. There is a learning curve while this happens. Why not give the new coach a head start on next year by implementing the new system now, and getting the kinks out of the way so that they can get off to a fast start in October? The same principal holds for bringing in some kids and letting them learn on the go. There will be growing pains, all contributing to fewer points, but that's what we want. The benefit is that they kids learn now, in a wasted season, rather than next year when it will count. I think morale would be better, and the outlook would be positive rather than negative and uncertain, which is how it would be with Therrien still around. "Will he stay or will he go?" The above will also contribute to attracting free agents. There will be more certainty over how and where they will play. Most coaches don't play kids over an established, productive vet unless they're called McJesus. I'm thinking of Stamkos as it's looking more and more like he'll say goodbye to Tampa. Familiarity with PK, the attraction of playing centre and in a great city like Montreal, the proximity to home and a comfort level with the new coach (Boucher!) will give the Habs a shot at getting that first elite scorer. I'd do that in free agency, not in a trade with Tampa. I'm not giving them anything. Let someone else pay Yzerman's price. You mentioned Pateryn, BC, and I'm definitely in the camp of playing him at some veteran's expense. It's one situation where I have no doubt he's better than Emelin or Gilbert and would help us more. I just think he's part of the future and Emelin and Gilbert aren't, so start giving him the needed experience. We need to remove those unwarranted contracts, so DD, Gilbert, Emelin and (I'm torn on this one) Pleks should be traded for picks or waived. You'd get something for Gilbert and Pleks for sure. Emelin maybe a low draft choice. It's important to clear the decks and free up CAP space for Stamkos, or Ladd. I think that covers it. Those are my reasons for dumping Therrien right now (besides the fact I can't stand his arrogance).
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Post by franko on Feb 12, 2016 14:40:23 GMT -5
for me, BC, the answer is that even though we realize that a tank[/i] an acceptance of lowered expectations is the way to go, it grates on us (me, anyway) to see les glorieux at the bottom of the standings and losing to the NHL powerhouses like Barfalo and Columbus.
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Post by mikeg on Feb 12, 2016 14:56:46 GMT -5
I think this whole season was not about the tank until AFTER the Bergy press conference.
You don't go out there and say the things he said if you are in tank mode.
You don't do everything you can to NOT develop Chucky into your top line center if you are tanking.
You don't wreck Beaulieu's confidence, give away Tinordi, etc. if you are secretly trying to tank.
I think they accidentally stumbled into a tank, Bergy realizes MT is not up for the task and is content to just let the chips fall where they fall.
They will win a few, lose a few and somehow manage to ruin a perfectly good tanking opportunity because of greed and pride. Sigh.
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 12, 2016 15:09:12 GMT -5
for me, BC, the answer is that even though we realize that a tank an acceptance of lowered expectations is the way to go, it grates on us (me, anyway) to see les glorieux at the bottom of the standings and losing to the NHL powerhouses like Barfalo and Columbus. ….and then everybody keeps their jobs…with a guarantee that the coaching staff stays for the season. Whereas we know that they know that the Ace of Spades in our house of cards was injured….ka-BOOM! Better building methods and materials needed….at this rate, I'll take straw with a visible guarantee that sticks and bricks are en route….
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Post by seventeen on Feb 12, 2016 15:38:21 GMT -5
I think Berg is going to be judged on what he does with the coaching staff at season's end. He may not care, but there is a cost to losing the trust of the fans.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Feb 12, 2016 16:10:10 GMT -5
I may be naïve but I think the entire season the team thought Price was just a few weeks away and kept trying to band aid the problem until he was back. The problem was he never responded to the rehab and got better, not bad enough for surgery but not well enough to play. That may be hard for some conspiracy theorist but I don't see any reason to have a GM and owner lie to see merchandise. For those that think Molson's are all just about the money these are the same guys that a few years ago cleaned house of everyone including firing Geoff Molson's childhood idol in Bob Gainey because it was important for the team to be a winner.
As for Tinordi and Galchenyuk it is time for fans to get over it. Tinordi had three seasons of training camps, practices, AHL and NHL games to make an impression and he couldn't do it. He kept getting passed over in the depth chart by waiver wire pick ups. I would suspect he only got as much time as he did because he was the size and pedigree that the team wanted for so long but you can only develop a player for so long before you cut your losses. There were no line ups of a dozen teams offering their first round picks to trade for Tinordi because their pro scouts saw the same things ours did and that was it was not going to happen. Some kids are great at 18 but that is their peak and life goes on. If he turns into Markov and plays 900 games for Arizona then great but more likely he is rooming with Louie LeBlanc in the KHL two years from now. What is wrong with Galchenyuk becoming a great winger and never playing center? Maybe scouts and coaches are right when they say he is not aware enough defensively or doesn't have the vision to be a number 1 center. He is 6'1" and 200 lbs so an average size, he is not 6'5" 230 lbs that can power his way to the net night after night, so his game relies on skill and finesse. I seem to remember guys like LaFleur, Shutt, Robatille, and Hull doing ok on the wing. Jamie Benn and Patrick Kane are wingers and we would be very happy with either of those guys on the team. I don't see the connection between a player not developing from what was hoped he would be as an 18 year old to what he actually is at 23-24 as a coaching problem. Coaches can mold a player, but they can't create instincts that are just not there. Gallagher and PK developed under MT because they had that natural ability in them, not of anything MT specifically did. Tinordi and Galchenyuk did not develop because of the same natural ability not being there, not because MT willed them to fail.
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Post by franko on Feb 12, 2016 18:13:02 GMT -5
for me, BC, the answer is that even though we realize that a tank an acceptance of lowered expectations is the way to go, it grates on us (me, anyway) to see les glorieux at the bottom of the standings and losing to the NHL powerhouses like Barfalo and Columbus. ….and then everybody keeps their jobs…with a guarantee that the coaching staff stays for the season. Better building methods and materials needed….at this rate, I'll take straw with a visible guarantee that sticks and bricks are en route…. no disagreement there. fact is I'm not so invested in the team this year. until game night.
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Post by Skilly on Feb 12, 2016 19:48:57 GMT -5
Excepting the fact that Galchenyuk has a better ppg as a Center than a winger ....and Desharnais has a better ppg as a winger than a Center, Then there is the fact that Desharnais is attrocious defensively, but it's always Galchenyuk's vision and defensive skills that are pointed to for keeping him on the wing ...yeah, ok
As for Tinordi, I never saw much difference in him than many of our other bottom pairing guys ... I'm not sure what the knock is against him, but he is now added to the looonngggggg list of highly drafted defensemen that were failed to be developed in Montreal. If Timmins even suggests another defenseman in the first round someone should hack his knee caps with a hockey stick so he can't approach the podium
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Post by Skilly on Feb 12, 2016 19:52:29 GMT -5
Again, people say they want a tank, but in their very next breath will propose a half-a-dozen ways to make the team better right now.Why do people want Therrien to be fired ASAP? Because a new coach will come in and make the team play better, right? If you wanted to tank then you would be all for Bergevin guaranteeing Therrien his job for the rest of the year. Why do people want Galchenyuk to get Desharnais's minutes? Because Galchenyuk is better than Desharnais, and switching the two will make the team better, right? If you want to tank then you should be throwing Desharnais out there for as much as his little legs can handle. Why do (did) people want Pateryn and Tinordi in the lineup ahead of Gilbert and Emelin? Or Beaulieu to get Markov's minutes? Because the veterans suck and the kids would do better, right? If you want to tank then you would play the inferior guys at every opportunity, right? Why were people upset when Daniel Carr, one of our better scorers at the time, was sent to the minors? Because he was a better top six option than, say, Byron, right? If you wanted to tank you would send any AHL-eligible player that happened to be accidentally helping the team back to the minors, lest they do more damage/good than the tank warrants. Why did people agree with Michael Farber when he said that they should have gone after Reimer? Ignoring for the moment that this wasn't even a possibility, people still thought it was a good idea. Why? Because if Price was really and truly done for the year Reimer would have lead THIS team to the Cup? Of course not. If you want to tank you ignore any real goalies that are on the market, and you trade a top 9 forward for an AHL goalie. You then flip your existing AHL goalie for a potential top 9 forward. The end result of all those deals was that Bergevin flipped a top 9 forward and an AHL goalie (Kassian and Tokarski) for a potential top 9 forward and an AHL goalie (Scrivens and Friberg). Or if you eliminate the two AHL goalies, a top 9 forward for a prospect. Which is what tanking teams do, right? I'm not saying Friberg WILL be a top 9 forward, but again, you don't want to keep Kassian because he IS a top 9 forward, and that would go against the tank. You go for the prospect, right? Why are people proposing a million different line combinations? Why did they get so upset with Desharnais on the ice for three consecutive faceoffs at the end of the last game (even though Therrien could do nothing about that) ? Why do they want Drouin? Or a trade-and-sign for Stamkos? You can't make the team better and still tank. If you want to tank you can't get any players that would be good for the team, because every point could cost you a lottery spot. You can't have it both ways; you can't say I want the team to suck and then complain that the team is sucking and that they should be doing this, that, and the other thing to make it better... Again, I don't think they are deliberately tanking. But the truth is they ARE tanking, and people are furious about it. And want it to stop. Whether they admit it or not. There is indeed a lot of evidence your scenario is bang on. A couple of things come to mind though, in ways to handle the tank, without looking like a tank, but different from what is actually taking place. Firstly I'm in total agreement that playing DD as much as possible is a great way to tank. The problem I have is that I don't think they're doing it deliberately. He's been bad two years in a row and got the same treatment last year as this year. "Here are the keys to the city, David". They weren't tanking last year and I don't think playing DD is a deliberate tanking strategy on their part. He and Therrien have some special bond that can't be broken without the two of them being lineup-otomized. There are some benefits to replacing Therrien and cleaning out some contracts right now. No doubt the new coach will implement better structure and a better system than MT, but it takes time. There is a learning curve while this happens. Why not give the new coach a head start on next year by implementing the new system now, and getting the kinks out of the way so that they can get off to a fast start in October? The same principal holds for bringing in some kids and letting them learn on the go. There will be growing pains, all contributing to fewer points, but that's what we want. The benefit is that they kids learn now, in a wasted season, rather than next year when it will count. I think morale would be better, and the outlook would be positive rather than negative and uncertain, which is how it would be with Therrien still around. "Will he stay or will he go?" The above will also contribute to attracting free agents. There will be more certainty over how and where they will play. Most coaches don't play kids over an established, productive vet unless they're called McJesus. I'm thinking of Stamkos as it's looking more and more like he'll say goodbye to Tampa. Familiarity with PK, the attraction of playing centre and in a great city like Montreal, the proximity to home and a comfort level with the new coach (Boucher!) will give the Habs a shot at getting that first elite scorer. I'd do that in free agency, not in a trade with Tampa. I'm not giving them anything. Let someone else pay Yzerman's price. You mentioned Pateryn, BC, and I'm definitely in the camp of playing him at some veteran's expense. It's one situation where I have no doubt he's better than Emelin or Gilbert and would help us more. I just think he's part of the future and Emelin and Gilbert aren't, so start giving him the needed experience. We need to remove those unwarranted contracts, so DD, Gilbert, Emelin and (I'm torn on this one) Pleks should be traded for picks or waived. You'd get something for Gilbert and Pleks for sure. Emelin maybe a low draft choice. It's important to clear the decks and free up CAP space for Stamkos, or Ladd. I think that covers it. Those are my reasons for dumping Therrien right now (besides the fact I can't stand his arrogance). It was all a part of the plan ...tank for three years, we will develop our youngsters in year 5, and even put them in the natural positions and hope it works out. It's on-the-job-training, the Habs way!
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Post by Skilly on Feb 12, 2016 20:54:38 GMT -5
This lost year sure will hurt Price's chances of chasing down history and records.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 13, 2016 0:58:58 GMT -5
Therrien was asked about the LaPresse story. Here are his replies:
"There's going to be a lot of speculation," Therrien said after the team's morning skate ahead of its game Friday night against the Buffalo Sabres. "We know what's going on with Carey.
"It's taking more time than we expected, but he's working extremely hard and putting in a lot of hours to make sure he makes a comeback. And it's not to make sure he looks good this summer on the beach. It's to come back and play for the Montreal Canadiens."
What I find interesting is that nowhere does he dispute the Lapresse article at all. What he says is vanilla stuff which would apply if Carey were returning next week or would require 2 years of rehab.
Not a ringing rebuttal of the article's assertion.
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Post by habsorbed on Feb 13, 2016 2:24:47 GMT -5
Therrien was asked about the LaPresse story. Here are his replies: "There's going to be a lot of speculation," Therrien said after the team's morning skate ahead of its game Friday night against the Buffalo Sabres. "We know what's going on with Carey."It's taking more time than we expected, but he's working extremely hard and putting in a lot of hours to make sure he makes a comeback. And it's not to make sure he looks good this summer on the beach. It's to come back and play for the Montreal Canadiens."What I find interesting is that nowhere does he dispute the Lapresse article at all. What he says is vanilla stuff which would apply if Carey were returning next week or would require 2 years of rehab. Not a ringing rebuttal of the article's assertion. I think the article is an informed guess. We've all seen the video footage and Carey is no where near returning. By the time he may be ready we will be out of the playoffs and not even morons like MB and MT would risk playing him. So the article will prove to be accurate. Bottom line is the organization is being needlessly deceptive and irresponsible in their handling of the injury.
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Post by Skilly on Feb 13, 2016 6:42:28 GMT -5
Carey is eyeing the World Cup. If Bergevin had any balls he'd emphatically tell Price, "you aren't healthy enough to play for the Canadiens, you certainly are not playing in the World Cup"
Carey played through this injury in the Olympics. (Assuming it's the same injury, which I believe it is, if not why the secrecy) I am still a little miffed at that.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 13, 2016 16:51:16 GMT -5
This is the perfect opportunity for an "on the fly" rebuild. Great teams do this across all sports. You realize you don't have a chance, and you just say screw it, let's suck and re-tool for next year and at the same time set yourself up for the decade... It makes no sense to me why they are not doing this, and why they have not fully committed to it. No sense... Well you could argue that this is in fact what they are doing. Tanking not-so-accidentally. Not getting a better goalie, not firing the coach, not getting a top six forward, playing the crap out of a bad center at the expense of others… I mean, if you wanted to tank this would be the way to do it, no? Next steps would be to trade players for what seems like nothing, like Kassian and Tinordi… People say they want a tank, but they don't really. We've been tanking for 8 weeks now and people are freaking on Bergevin for not doing anything to stop it. What if this is in fact the tank? What if they knew Price wasn't coming back, and that Jonathon Bernier, or James Reimer, or Cam Ward, or whoever, would not be the Cup solution, that Therrien had no clue, that the top six was horribly broken? What if they knew all this and made the deliberate decision to do nothing and let Rome burn? Pick up the top pick and come back next year all the better for it? This is what a tank looks like, and it's not pretty. And it gets worse. Careful what you wish for, and all that. (having said that, I don't think they are deliberately trying to tank)The only ones talking about tanking are the fans ... I'd like to know what the plan is right now, because it really does look like Marc Bergevin is in the let-the-chips-fall-where-they-may mode ... however, I wonder what would happen to an organization that makes it known that they're shutting it down for the remainder of the year ... would the league impose penalties on teams who admit to throwing away a season ... I know with me, anyway, if Bergevin were to announce such a thing, I wouldn't be watching any games from home ... why would I ... if I had a chance at tickets I'd probably ask if they'd take $10 bucks for premium seats ... if they wouldn't I'd probably just hit Chez Parée Schwartz's for a smoked meat sandwich ... at least I'd get a quality lap dance sandwich and a pickle for my $10 bucks ... Jonathan Bernier has had a rough season, but so has his team ... in retrospect, that stint he did in the A did him a lot of good, but eventually his game, and his team, both went south ... Cheers.
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Post by Skilly on Feb 14, 2016 7:45:22 GMT -5
He doesn't have to announce he is tanking ...the league would certainly frown on that, and sanction Montreal. But his actions, (players dealt, players playing, etc) would speak louder than words, so to speak.
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Post by franko on Feb 14, 2016 8:07:19 GMT -5
let's see if the fans in attendance start cheering the other team a la Barfalo last year . . . then we'll really know it's on.
doesn't matter, though . . . Edmonton will get the first pick.
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Post by Anardil1 on Feb 14, 2016 15:27:29 GMT -5
doesn't matter, though . . . Edmonton will get the first pick. Go wash your mouth out with soap!
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Post by franko on Feb 14, 2016 15:59:52 GMT -5
doesn't matter, though . . . Edmonton will get the first pick. Go wash your mouth out with soap! If the Oilers won the Stanley Cup wound up winning enough games to miss the lottery they'd still somehow wind up with the first over all pick. And mess up.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Feb 26, 2016 13:56:01 GMT -5
MT announced the Price will practice with equipment on at a private practice today.
I sure hope that Berg and MT do not see this as a sign that they might be able to salvage a season, and in MT's case, a job. Last time they rushed him back, and that turned out so well. Carey is this team's most valuable asset. They need to continue to let him recover, without the added stress of games during a meaningless season. I want a healthy Carey in the fall, along with as good a draft pick we can find.
They have shut Gilbert, Petry down for the season...don't rush Carey back!!
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