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Post by seventeen on Jan 21, 2003 20:00:32 GMT -5
I tend to be persistent when I don't understand something. Some people would call that dense, but I ignore them anyway. What I still don't understand is the length of time it took Savard to fire MT. I was beginning to think Savard was out of touch with reality, something of which he might be accused only very occasionally (as might most of us). As comments came together here and there, I've pieced together a theory, or the beginnings of one. Not of the conspiracy variety. Savard mentioned recently that Therrien wasn't his choice. That is a fact, it seems. The sequence of events, as documented by various posters and/or journalists is that Houle fired Vigneault and hired Therrien and was then subsequently fired the same day himself by Boivin. Boivin couldn't have gotten up that morning, had his Wheaties and decided, ala Chief Dan George, "Today is a good day to fire Houle". It had to be building. I think we can take that for a given. That gives rise to the first anomaly. What president in their right mind allows the GM who already is wearing the blindfold and waiting for the rifles to go off, to go and hire a new coach? "Senor, would you like a cigarette?, maybe a new coach?" Perhaps Boivin asked Houle to get a new couch and Reggie misunderstood. Seems to me you leave that job for the new GM, right? But Boivin doesn't. So, Andre, who would probably have given his right tes....errr arm for the job, says "I do" because it's an arranged marriage and he can order separate beds. But the occupant of the other bed has a lot of flaws and Andre would never have tied the knot in other circumstances. So a divorce is in order. Except that the Father in Law really likes the coach and the pre-nup he had drawn up limits Savard's options. That may explain the other strange fact about Michel's entire reign of Therror...why it lasted so long. Sound plausible? Do we have Pierre to blame for the coaching mess? I'd really like to have a look at that pre-nup, but I think it was burned a while ago when HA's janitor was caught being too curious about certain desk drawers. Or is it as simple as Therrien fooling most of the people all of the time?
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Post by MC Habber on Jan 21, 2003 20:08:40 GMT -5
I never understood how Houle was allowed to hire a coach when he was about to be fired. From what I understand, he just went ahead and told MT he had the job, and then found out he was fired. I would have thought the GM would have to get confirmation from the president/owner before making a decision like that. All I can think is that Houle promised the job to MT and Boivin didn't know how to tell MT to get lost? Who else was available to coach? Maybe Boivin didn't want to have an interim coach while they looked for a replacement - it would have been hard enough for AS starting his first GM job without having to deal with that too. Still, it doesn't make much sense to me.
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Post by PTH on Jan 21, 2003 20:19:58 GMT -5
I think Boivin had essentially decided to clear house - who was to replace the guys who were leaving wasn't all that important.
AS was named as semi-interim GM, it was only a few months later that it became clear that he'd really be sticking around as the big guy. So when he was brought into the post on an interim basis, and he was told MT had been hired - a decent enough guy from within the organisation, well, why not see if this could work out. As time went on, the two were on divergent paths - AS for a skill-based time, MT for a grit-based one. It just took two years of rebuilding for the differences to reach a breaking point.
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Post by JohnnyVerdun on Jan 21, 2003 20:21:38 GMT -5
So what are you saying, Seventeen?
Savard knew as soon as he stepped into the organization, if not before, that the organization needed time to get back on track. There was already a new couch, or coach, and the Habs would've looked more like a circus than a pro hockey team had they tossed Therrien after he'd been given a job by Reggie Defunctus....So Andre moves into the house even though he doesn't like the new gardener and wouldn't have him anywhere near the prize roses if he had his druthers. But wait! There are no roses to speak of. Not really. There's Markov, who's coming along, and Theodore, who's pretty much arrived. So, here's a guy who can do the basic gardening for the meantime without doing any damage. And lo and behold, the team rises to the occasion and is carried by Koivu's return and Theo's goaltending into the playoffs. Therrien blunders, but the expectations have been exceeded. Can't toss him now, even though Hainsey (a rose) is coming along and their are more on the way. The club needs stability, and it wouldn't do to toss a guy who "led" the team into the playoffs. Extension. No problem, cause Michel is cheaper than Sylvain Blouin. But it was only a matter of time. Unless the team made it to the conference final, Therrien was going to be fired. The only question was timing. With the team floundering, and with Savard in his heart wanting someone else (Julien), the time was ripe. But cruel fate intervened and Hartley got tossed. Not a good time to replace Therrien with Julien, for reasons which have been well explained. So he waits. And as he waits, the team's slump deepens, which makes the move a little easier to take for the pro-Therrien Francophone press. Hartley signs, the team plays poorly,....Therrien gets whacked. Tic-Tac-Toe Blake. Everybody's happy. Everybody who counts in this equation.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 21, 2003 20:35:50 GMT -5
I'm stirring the pot, hoping something comes to the surface that looks good and is edible. I'm not satisfied with the various 'explanations' of the whole thing, from Therrien's hiring to his firing. So Reggie hired MT. Who knew, beside MT's wife? Why even announce he'd been hired? Had Houle already issued a press release? Was Vigneault's release already public? If so, were all the assistants fired too or could one of them have been 'interim'. Perhaps AS thought MT would be as useful as any other caretaker in that circumstance. No one knows, especially me. Why the contract extension? Therrien's contract was through 2002-03, wasn't that long enough for him to prove he could do the job? If it was to send a message to the players, that Therrien was boss, does that mean AS really thought he had talent? If AS knew from the beginning that MT was out of his element (which a few of us picked up on very quickly), then he had to understand the players were right, not wrong and what was the point of sending that kind of message when you know the coaches days are numbered? Did Boivin foist the extension on Savard? These are all questions which I believe, if answered, would help us judge just who the guys wearing the white hats are in the organization. And I'd like to have that simplified view. Or at least know which people have talent and which ones don't. I'd like to feel we have the pieces in place to get back to contending for the Cup on a regular basis. Do we? Or will the guy who manufactured the Therrien fiasco, or at least allowed it to continue for as long as it did, stick his fingers into the pie again and again? To me, this is the Meaning of Life.
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Post by Habsolution on Jan 21, 2003 22:08:29 GMT -5
The way I see it
There's some truth in everything. I'd say the Blanchard article hit the nail right on even though the guy is totaly clueless and it was simply turned into a way to bash Savard and make Therrien lovers among society all sad about the big bad AS firing the good old working habs coach so many canadian french people who work everyday associated themselves with. This and of course selling papers. He said Savard made Therrien do a lot of things. Half of it may be true ... maybe even fewer than that. But the thing is AS never helped Therrien in any ways. He wanted the guy out ... and like you guys said he didn't want a clown like him around any of the organization prospects. If you take some time to think about it. Let's analyze the Blouin, Lindsay, Audette and Czerkawski's trades.
He brought MT Lindsay and Blouin. Blouin knew MT and MT himself probably asked to have him. AS complied knowing an 8th round pic was worth adding more shame to MT's reign. He also brought Lindsay. Someone in the mold for Therrien. But none of them were impact players ... and pretty far from it. In fact they were players who were barely making it. But MT wanted them. I'm pretty sure AS knew they were worthless and didn't want to bring them along but he did for the bigger course of events. He brought Chow and Audette to MT ... 2 players that are so unlike Therrien's style of coaching. Players have to adapt to Therrien ... not the other way around as it should be. So he succeeded in destroying Audette but Chow never really went down and I'm glad for him. He's depicted as a badass by the stupid medias but he is in fact a poor victim of MT's lack of coaching skill. He hadn't the special thing to get out of the slump while playing on the fourth line and while not getting PP time. While being 2 good trades because we practically didn't give up anything they were also 2 more ways of making MT look bad. AS schemes backfired though when the stupid medias fell totaly in love with Therrien... associating him with the teams success last year(even though we alllll know Theo and Saku's return did it). He even managed to screw up ... I think anyone would have fared better in last year playoffs. He has no psychology ... He managed to bring all this enthusiasm about last season down with his efforts. But through all of it ... our intelligent media kept loving him as if he was the next coming of Pat Burns. Even Burns didn't get as much respect from the french media. No for them ... it's AS scheming to take away one of the best coach there's ever been in MTL(yup MT).
So it's ok 17 you're still wondering how this could all have happened. It's ok .. cuz media's usefulness(to shed light on what's really going on) was totaly lacking. In fact they were doing the opposite. Then .. I wonder why habs fan who are supposed to be the most knowledgeable are so dumb and stupid. They learn from TV ... they buy into almost everything ... but are led astray in the dark by the TV. Ohhh god ... TV is our god ... may thou keep showing us crap ... make it easier for us ... make us believe ... mmmmm !
(hypnotized people on their knees in front of Yvon Pedneault with Claude Blanchard's article in their hand reciting the same litany over poor hard working honest coach getting screwed by the big bad players)
The truth is ... AS wanted to do it... but the whole population didn't. I was seeing comments from fans at La Cage aux sports and they were all saying : players did it , players did it, MT was a good coach, it doesn't fix the problem.
So don't worry anymore ... AS is the guy made for the job. I give him my whole trust.
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Post by Habsolution on Jan 21, 2003 22:21:12 GMT -5
I also Think Boivin's move was made out of sheer inexperience and stupidity. AS took the reins and Boivin can now shut his mouth and let Savard deal with everything that's important.
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Post by Habsolution on Jan 21, 2003 22:52:34 GMT -5
By the way I'm not implying anyone here on this board is stupid. Just implying most of habs fans are because they aren't given the right informations. Or at least the right way to put the information. To me ... it's all about marketing and the good image of the MTL habs. MT should have looked more like a Jean Perron than a Pat Burns. Still MT is far above JP but still the media messed it up on this one and made him a lot greater than he was. In my mind this is why it took so long for AS to fire MT. He kinda had to have reasons ... it wasn't easy ...
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 22, 2003 0:38:57 GMT -5
Are you guys sure it was Savard who made the decision to fire Therrien?
Who sits on top of the pyramid?
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Post by seventeen on Jan 22, 2003 0:45:04 GMT -5
Good point. another mystery.
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Post by habwest on Jan 22, 2003 1:18:03 GMT -5
Gee 17, I've been saying pretty well the same thing ad naseum for, oh, a year or so. Organizational politics, it wasn't Savard's decision alone, AS had to have enough rope to hang MT with, MT was never Savard's kind of coach and was simply a stop gap until AS got the man he really wanted, he was Savard's safety valve, that he was trying to defer that as long as possible until the kids were ready, etc etc. Ain't nobody here ever worked for a big organization at a management level ? (yes, I had to put up with that BS for many a moon) This s**t goes on all the time. No point in posting around here, nobody reads'em anyway. Seems like most folks are more interested in some silly poll or the umpteenth version of what the lines should be or whatever... Sign me up PTH. Grump, harumph, mutter, grumble.... Gonna go away and sulk
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Post by seventeen on Jan 22, 2003 1:40:50 GMT -5
I always read your stuff HW. Religiously. And I don't post about lines. They can change in the blink of an eye anyway, so why bother.
Cheers.
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Post by PTH on Jan 22, 2003 1:47:16 GMT -5
No point in posting around here, nobody reads'em anyway. Seems like most folks are more interested in some silly poll or the umpteenth version of what the lines should be or whatever... Sign me up PTH. Sign you up for what, the grump of the month club ? But that's ALL MINE HAHAHAHA (evil laugh kinda thing) ! Seriously, I always read your posts, there are about a half-dozen people on here I'll make an effort to read properly. As to lines... I like to know what they actually are during a game or afterwards, but speculation about that tends to lead nowhere.... especially since none of us know the coach's prejudices for or against players. Anyhow, most lineups made up tend to have a fatal flaw (ie - a player left off because a poster doesn't like him) BTW All: If you move from Ontario to Quebec, either 1) get your plates changed ASAP 2) don't change your tires at Canadian Tire I have 2 flats.... either some pulled a prank on an "anglo bloke" because of my plates, or Canadian Tire can't put tires on properly anymore. I'm just thrilled, 2 flat tires at around -20 every day. AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGG Thank God I walk to work.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 22, 2003 1:54:35 GMT -5
Sometimes the cold just gives you flat tires. Is it square tire cold yet? -28 or so.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 22, 2003 8:31:14 GMT -5
Are you guys sure it was Savard who made the decision to fire Therrien? Who sits on top of the pyramid? Mr Happy-go-lucky with his perma-smile is a not to be mistaken with Mr Patientmen. Team was slipping, media and fans were disgruntled and NOTHING was happening at any level. Savard got a call I am sure. Maybe not to say fire Therrien, but certainly to say do something dammit.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 22, 2003 8:34:41 GMT -5
Sometimes the cold just gives you flat tires. Is it square tire cold yet? -28 or so. 17, it's -40 with the wind factor in Montreal this morning. In the Quebec area (PTH) it's even colder. Flat tires is bad but right now it's engine busting season...
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Post by TheHabsfan on Jan 22, 2003 8:37:12 GMT -5
17, it's -40 with the wind factor in Montreal this morning. In the Quebec area (PTH) it's even colder. Flat tires is bad but right now it's engine busting season... Hey Doc, it's nice and cozy here on the east coast with a balmy -34 with the windchill. Come on down!!
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Post by MPLABBE on Jan 22, 2003 11:23:10 GMT -5
Sheesh.. I was outside for like 3 minutes and my ears have been frozen for about 30 minutes!
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Jan 22, 2003 13:18:01 GMT -5
I'm stirring the pot, hoping something comes to the surface that looks good and is edible. I'm not satisfied with the various 'explanations' of the whole thing, from Therrien's hiring to his firing. So Reggie hired MT. Who knew, beside MT's wife? Why even announce he'd been hired? Had Houle already issued a press release? Was Vigneault's release already public? If so, were all the assistants fired too or could one of them have been 'interim'. Perhaps AS thought MT would be as useful as any other caretaker in that circumstance. No one knows, especially me. Why the contract extension? Therrien's contract was through 2002-03, wasn't that long enough for him to prove he could do the job? If it was to send a message to the players, that Therrien was boss, does that mean AS really thought he had talent? If AS knew from the beginning that MT was out of his element (which a few of us picked up on very quickly), then he had to understand the players were right, not wrong and what was the point of sending that kind of message when you know the coaches days are numbered? Did Boivin foist the extension on Savard? To me, this is the Meaning of Life. To get back to the conspiracy theory here....Houle could see in the days before his firing something had to be done, thinking that firing AV and hiring MT would save his job he may have done so before checking with Bovin. This may have thrown Bovin over the edge and gets Houle fired anyways. If Houle had signed Therrien to a contract prior to the firing, Montreal were obligated to pay him. They certainly weren't going to pay 2 coaches not to coach in AV and MT so Bovin tells Savard your stuck with Therrian for the next couple of years. Therrien may have won over Savard by his honest hard work and personality that Savard decided to give him the exentsion thinking he would evolve into a solid NHL caliber coach. Overlooking the mistakes in last seasons playoffs the team looked good in the pre-season and first 10-15 games of the season, enough that Savard thought Therrien would pull the team around. Sadly he couldn't and the rest is history.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 22, 2003 13:39:06 GMT -5
Houle was not deciding stuff on his own at the end of his tenure. He had organize a hockey commitee of him, Boivin, Savard, Carbo and MAdden. It's that commitee that decided on firing AV and hiring Therrien. Plus Savard extended Therrien's contract twice.
He was Savard's coach as much as Julien currently his.
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Jan 22, 2003 13:57:51 GMT -5
Houle was not deciding stuff on his own at the end of his tenure. He had organize a hockey commitee of him, Boivin, Savard, Carbo and MAdden. It's that commitee that decided on firing AV and hiring Therrien. Plus Savard extended Therrien's contract twice. He was Savard's coach as much as Julien currently his. As some have pointed out, I'm sure, Therrien was Savard's fall-guy. Problem is he had to fall a lot sooner than André had counted on. Probably why Savard didn't look so well at Julien's press conference. He seems to be a man who *really* likes to have things go according to plan, and deviations, no matter how necessary, seem to really bring out the acid reflux in him. Julien is his style of coach, but the ready-made excuse is gone from behind the bench. The heat has been turned up in the GM's office.
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