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Post by GARB08 on Jan 7, 2003 16:11:24 GMT -5
I know it's not habs news but I think it's big enough news to be on the main board.
The Ottawa Senators Have Declared Bankruptcy, or will in the next couple of days. This is bad news for ppl in the Ottawa region because they are losing their team and more jobs to the economy. Tsn.ca is reporting that within the next 24 hours the teamw ill file for chapter 11
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sXe
Rookie
Posts: 60
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Post by sXe on Jan 7, 2003 16:17:58 GMT -5
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Post by MPLABBE on Jan 7, 2003 16:26:09 GMT -5
Poor Sens fans...this is like the Expos of 1994 all over again...except they may not even have a team next year Site Map » <br> Sens to file for bankruptcy tsn.ca Staff 1/7/2003 A declaration of bankruptcy by the Ottawa Senators is imminent, TSN has learned. The official announcement is expected as early as the next 24 hours, sources told TSN, and it is the first official step in a financial restructuring of the organization that will, if all goes well, ultimately lead to the sale of the NHL franchise and its home, the Corel Centre. Suffice to say it's going to be a complicated process that won't be resolved any time soon, but filing for bankruptcy protection is necessary in order for the troubled franchise to get the short-term financing it needs to continue day-to-day operations, including paying players who did not receive their checks on Jan. 1. No financial institution is prepared to lend the Senators any money unless they are in bankruptcy. That way, any bank that loans capital to the Senators will be at the front of line to be repaid when the sale is completed. Without the filing of bankruptcy, any bank would be in the position of becoming a creditor, with no guarantee of getting paid back in full. Details to follow.
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Post by FormerLurker on Jan 7, 2003 16:42:02 GMT -5
The Sens WILL have a team next year. Bankruptcy does not mean that the franchise will necessarily fold or relocate. It's simply a way for Bryden to protect himslef from his current creditors, so that he can get the loan he needs to continue running the team in the short term until he finds a buyer.
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Post by GARB08 on Jan 7, 2003 17:14:13 GMT -5
I think he may need to sell the team because ( I'm gonna look really young here b/c i don't know this that well but) you have to wait 12 years after you declare bankrupty because your credit is shot you can't even get a credit card. I may be wrong though.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jan 7, 2003 17:21:18 GMT -5
Let's find another American to give/sell the team to and get Molson's to guarantee the loan. There is a guy who own's a baseball team in Florida (maybe the Marlins) who might want to buy the Sen's under the right conditions. He has a relative (Samson or something like that) who could run the team. (Run it to Houston)
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Post by MPLABBE on Jan 7, 2003 17:25:05 GMT -5
LOL!
Loria running the Sens. That would get the Montreal-Ottawa rivalry going ;D
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Post by habwest on Jan 7, 2003 18:34:53 GMT -5
Bryden had a an American with deep pockets who was going to invest but he pulled put when the US bank involved wouldn't follow through on its part of the deal. Bryden has been trying to get new investors for years. The fact that he was unable to do so does not bode well for the franchise staying in Ottawa or even being sold to move intact to another location, presumably in the USA. A total debt load of $350 is a lot for any new owner to take on, even one with deep pockets. If the company can't make money now, with pretty decent crowds in Ottawa, I doubt it could do so moved to some piddling hockey market in the USA.
The best scenario may be the NHL helping the Sens get through this season and then the team folding with its assets being sold in the form of a draft to help pay off debtors to the extent possible. The hockey arena will remain as a mausoleum to the stupidty of anti business left wing governments such as the NDP.
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Post by PTH on Jan 7, 2003 19:05:39 GMT -5
The best scenario may be the NHL helping the Sens get through this season and then the team folding with its assets being sold in the form of a draft to help pay off debtors to the extent possible. The hockey arena will remain as a mausoleum to the stupidty of anti business left wing governments such as the NDP. I doubt the players could be sold off as assets though - otherwise you get the slightly crazy situation where you can only sell players when you're shutting down. Then again, when the Pens were in trouble, there was talk of selling off the entire team to a new franchise in Portland - effectively moving the team, but not the debt. As to the whole left-wing thing...... to me the Palladium is a mausoleum to right-wing venture capitalism - they built the arena in the middle of nowhere, hoping for a construction boom in the area, fuelled by the high-tech craze. It was a massive speculative development that flopped, because the high-tech craze was a bubble that burst, and now they have an arena in the middle of nowhere, that IMO is a huge problem, since the vast majority of fans have to drive a serious distance to go to a game. Awful management those first few years of the franchise certainly didn't help as well. I wish the best for the Sens, but they got themselves into this.
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 7, 2003 20:09:52 GMT -5
Bankruptcy is a standard way to reorganize debt. Unless of course the lenders want to liquidate or take control. I was expecting this when their fat wallet white knight did not show up.
The idiot build the arena in the middle of nowhere and he was banking on a building boom to pay off this idiocy. Bryden got himself into it and I do not feel sorry for him. I am willing to bet that he bought a huge amount of land all around the area, expecting to sell it 100 times what he bought the farms for. Land speculation at it’s ugliest.
Greed, just plain greed.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jan 7, 2003 22:58:29 GMT -5
Where would the Senators be financially if Savard was their GM? Bigger payroll and worse team. No playoff money or hopes. No one in their right mind would try to buy and run a team in Ottawa with a small town market, Canadian dollar revenue, US dollar payroll, debt load that would choke a horse, individual and corporate tax structure working against them, property taxes, and the NDP jealous of the financial success of hockey players who are earning more than their more talented postal employees.
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Post by habwest on Jan 8, 2003 1:12:12 GMT -5
You're probably right PTH, there's enough responsibility to be spread around. But the provincial govt did insist on them paying for the interchange although the NDP were more than happy in raking in the resulting tax $ and happy to have the exchange used by everybody else on a day to day basis. That was just BS. You can also add the NHL to the list with their expansion fees. That was BS as well.
I think that Doc is closest to the truth of the matter. The club was undercapitalized from the beginning and the only way that they thought they could pull it off in the long run was by the real estate angle. Given the circumstances they probably were right but it was a gamble that has failed. I think that from the beginning the aim wasn't to make buckets full of money but more like paying off the debt and making modest amounts or at least breaking even- that has been Bryden's aim since he took over, to break even. As to the arena being built where it was, besides the real estate angle, finding a location downtown was probably an insoluble problem given the the difficulties. The prime site was Lebreton flats but the feds prevented that. As to the other logical site, Lansdowne Park was still committed at the time to the football team so they couldn't pull that stadium down and start from scratch- besides there was a lot of pressure against doing this by community groups.
So to say the arena is a monument to venture capitalism run wild and that those dummies shoulda built this arena in the middle of the city is a bit of an oversimplification I think. Lets face it, with no Canadians with big bucks willing to step up to start (or buy struggling) clubs most Canadian franchises are in tough. If no Canadian is willing to buy the Habs think what it must mean to the rest, other than TO. There is always a great hue and cry on this board about Canadians knowing hockey, its "our" game and Canadian clubs but when somebody with relatively modest means tries to make the dreams come true but the enterprise fails then the labels of "right wing venture capatalis(t)" and "they got themselves into this" are assigned. In other words, tough, they got what they deserved.
As far as I'm concerned that's a bit disengenuous. We want people to start and keep Canadian clubs going, to take that risk, but when somebody gives it a good try but doesn't make it then, instead of saying good try, they're slamed for it. If that's the attitude then I hope that the Sens are sold and moved to the USA and, like Colorado, go on to reap several Stanley Cups.
The club as a whole certainly could be sold separately from the arena and I'm sure the non-NHL creditors would be most happy to see this. If some Yank can be found to take the gamble on the premise of moving the team, yes it probably is the most logical scenario. But if not, what do they do then? Selling individual players off hasn't been encountered in my memory but with the scenario of more and more failing clubs on the horizon and no new sugar daddies willing to step up it just may be something that the League will be forced to look at. Those creditors will want to get some of their money back. On the other hand I know nothing of the union or legal ramifications so this may be precluded as an option from the get go.
Anyway, sad day for Ottawa as a whole.
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Post by Ged on Jan 8, 2003 1:31:02 GMT -5
A sad day I must say. Question. Why was this franchise not awarded to Hamilton, where the Copps Coliseum was aready in place. And, isn't it strange that one John Bryden, a member of Parliament (Liberal) is the happenstance brother of one, Rod Bryden. John Manley(of course only representing his constituents, albeit as the Finance Minister) suddenly steps in and lobbies huge banks on the part of his constituents. Can you say conflict of interest? But then again, let's keep all this politics out of hockey, it's highly inappropriate. As if.
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 8, 2003 2:18:35 GMT -5
You're probably right PTH, there's enough responsibility to be spread around. But the provincial govt did insist on them paying for the interchange although the NDP were more than happy in raking in the resulting tax $ and happy to have the exchange used by everybody else on a day to day basis. That was just BS. You can also add the NHL to the list with their expansion fees. That was BS as well. I think that Doc is closest to the truth of the matter. The club was undercapitalized from the beginning and the only way that they thought they could pull it off in the long run was by the real estate angle. Given the circumstances they probably were right but it was a gamble that has failed. I think that from the beginning the aim wasn't to make buckets full of money but more like paying off the debt and making modest amounts or at least breaking even- that has been Bryden's aim since he took over, to break even. As to the arena being built where it was, besides the real estate angle, finding a location downtown was probably an insoluble problem given the the difficulties. The prime site was Lebreton flats but the feds prevented that. As to the other logical site, Lansdowne Park was still committed at the time to the football team so they couldn't pull that stadium down and start from scratch- besides there was a lot of pressure against doing this by community groups. So to say the arena is a monument to venture capitalism run wild and that those dummies shoulda built this arena in the middle of the city is a bit of an oversimplification I think. ...................... As far as I'm concerned that's a bit disengenuous. We want people to start and keep Canadian clubs going, to take that risk, but when somebody gives it a good try but doesn't make it then, instead of saying good try, they're slamed for it. If that's the attitude then I hope that the Sens are sold and moved to the USA and, like Colorado, go on to reap several Stanley Cups. Anyway, sad day for Ottawa as a whole. You paint a sad story and almost had me in tears, almost, but................... You see this from a fans perspective and take it as a sad day that this has happened to a "poor little" Canadian owner that tried and failed because those evil economics witches were against him. So what. Bryden is no Mother Teresa and neither is he a fool. He started this Senators fully expecting to make a go of it make loads of money to boot. He gambled, something that every business does, and failed. If I remember correctly, the interchange was an issue from the get go and he knew he would have to build it. When one develops land, one has to build a road through it and it becomes public access, that’s part of developing land. You don’t hear Kaneff complaining about having to build umpteenth thousands of miles of roads in order to develop their lands. Had the meltdown not happened and Bryden sold his cornfields for half a million per acre, do you think he would run up to the government and offer extra taxes because of his windfall? Me thinks not. Bryden had no business getting into the hockey business. With a few plug nickels of his own, he went out and borrowed so heavily that it was a matter of time before his house of starched dollar bills collapsed on top of him. His latest reorganization plan reekes of gimmickry. At least to my conservative business eyes. The other greedy NHL owners held their hand out and took the 50 million. They had to. A lot of the clubs depended on expansion money to keep their clubs afloat, now that there are no more morons out there willing to throw money at them, they are in DEEP trouble. What a surprise. I never ever cry for a businessman who bites the dust. They reap the Benz’s and the Porsche’s but they also have to pay the ultimate price for failure. The law of the business jungle says that you are either successful or you face extinction. Period. End of story. Only in our cozy Canadian view, with it’s fuzzy left tilt says that things should always be fairy tale and “right”. It’s not right to have a 60 cent dollar but it’s our “right” to get 10% wage increases while competing in the world economy. Why can’t the rest of the world look at us and our economy with the same rose coloured glasses we do and our government tells us it is. D*mn it. Hey, isn’t it our “right” not to pay so much taxes but it IS our “right” to have universal health care. I guess it’s not “right” that poor little Bryden’s plans went all to hell because he overextended himself worse then Elastic Man and his Tarrot card reading of the economy was no better then my extensive phrenology training. Reality sucks.
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Post by habwest on Jan 8, 2003 5:11:43 GMT -5
Hmmm..... with these kinds of attitudes it is no wonder that Canada is becoming a 3rd rate country. Businessmen are bad, it seems, by definition. "Bryden had no business getting into the hockey business." Well, at least he tried which is more than any so-called Canadian did for the Habs. In the event the Habs were just damned lucky is all. It seems that we would much rather have one of the things that supposedly defines Canada in American hands. Which is probably not a bad idea from what I'm seeing here. This is such a mickey mouse, afraid of the world, attitude. We're such a nation of whiners and complainers, afraid to take risks to achieve anything big and damning anybody who does, especially, it seems, if things don't work out. There seems to be an absolutely perverse hatred of anybody successful or thinking big. What a bunch of losers this country is becoming. My son is so fed up with it that he intends to get a job in the US as soon as he can swing it. Go somewhere where the attitude is "can do". Frankly I'd be down there myself right now if our dollar was worth 85 cents in "real" money.
Which is why, PTH and HA, I don't ever want to hear you complaining about the loss of Canadian clubs. Frankly, I almost wish GG would take the Habs south, just to see how you would react. A bit of your own medicine, so to speak.
There is so much negativity on this board right now- it seems to permeate everything. What's with people? Sure one has to be realistic. And sure everybody has a melt down every now and then (well I do anyway). But if you're that bitter all the time about the world why bother about anything....like getting out of bed or living or posting on this board?
Sheesh. Lighten up guys.
In response to Ged, if I remember correctly it was the Leafs who had the biggest role in scotching any franchise in Hamilton as Hamilton was in "their area", however that is defined and works. They simply didn't want a team there that might drain away fans, attendance and TV/radio/merchandising revenues etc. Little chance of that happening with the franchise in Ottawa.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 8, 2003 8:08:24 GMT -5
Great posts HabWest, I live in Ottawa and you are absolutely right about the Sens situation, It's all over the Team 1200 (the all sports station). I like the Sens, they are good for hockey (lower payroll, good team, fought players over not honouring contracts re: Yashin etc.). I think it would be very bad for the NHL in General and Canada in particular if the Sens were moved to the US. The fans here support the team, but with the massive debt load the team has and taxes they pay, they have to charge more for tickets. They even charge more for tickets when the Habs and Leafs come to town. They've made some mistakes and I don't think Bryden's pockets were deep enough and that's why he tried to get the Snapple guy to buy in.
The really unfortunate thing is if the Sens move to the US, they they will start showing Leaf games here during the week again which would really peeve me off. Nothing got the Laff fans worse then when they stopped showing Laff games here because the Laffs wouldn't allow Sens games to be shown in their market.
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 8, 2003 9:26:32 GMT -5
Hmmm..... with these kinds of attitudes it is no wonder that Canada is becoming a 3rd rate country. Businessmen are bad, it seems, by definition. "Bryden had no business getting into the hockey business." Well, at least he tried which is more than any so-called Canadian did for the Habs. In the event the Habs were just damned lucky is all. It seems that we would much rather have one of the things that supposedly defines Canada in American hands. Which is probably not a bad idea from what I'm seeing here. This is such a mickey mouse, afraid of the world, attitude. . None of this statement holds any water because I AM a businessman and a very successful one at that. There are tens of thousands of us stupid little businessman who employ millions of Canadians and only make the mundane products that are all over your house. But we are not SEXY, we don't have SEXY companies. That’s why if WE don’t run our companies properly and they go down in flames, no one will come on the board and cry. Stupid unsexy us. Poor Little Bryden, he is a special Canadian because he gambled big on our beloved sport and lost everything. Poor Little Bryden did not use any common sense, speculated on land, had to build a public thoroughfare so he could turn cheap farm land into gold, borrowed money to the hilt and FAR beyond and generally did things that silly little successful unsexy businessman would NEVER, EVER DO. Not even ones with half a brain like me. But Poor Little Bryden. He is sexy. There is so much negativity on this board right now- it seems to permeate everything. What's with people? Sure one has to be realistic. And sure everybody has a melt down every now and then (well I do anyway). But if you're that bitter all the time about the world why bother about anything....like getting out of bed or living or posting on this board? Gee, I’m almost sorry to take a realist view and call something for what it is. Yup, that ugly reality has permeated my pink socks and I had to be so inconsiderate by tossing the smelly pair onto the board. Next time I'll wash them in Happy Tide'ings. Sorry that my Popiel Reality Saw cut through your walker (the one made from old Hab's hockey sticks). Us old people should not disagree with each other cause you never know when we gonna need to share a box of adult diapers.
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Post by habwest on Jan 8, 2003 12:16:45 GMT -5
Boy, that's a big chip on your shoulder; it must be hard carrying it around after while. Well, if you want to live your life feeling like that go to it.
What I'm objecting to is the 'serves him, and Ottawa, right" kind of attitude. On the one hand you profess great concern over hockey in Canada. On the other you seem to revel in heaping bitterness upon a Canadian when he doesn't pull it off. And when it's an AMERICAN sugar daddy who stepped in to save the Habs from eventual demise or total unending mediocrity (which you go on and on about) this sounds pretty hollow to me. So you're a small business man. You want a gold star or something? Jeez my father was a farmer through the dust bowl and I'll wager he had it a lot tougher than you did but I never heard him going about bad mouthing others who had it better than himself.
All this sounds a lot like the Toronto arrogance that turns so many people off.
Like I said, mickey mouse.
If you don't like my opinion, tough.
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