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Post by Ryan on Dec 18, 2002 18:28:18 GMT -5
The Avs have fired coach Bob Hartley.
Would AS please grow some balls and fire MT already?
Heck, I'd even take Hartley for MT right now, he's bilingual.
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Post by Viper on Dec 18, 2002 18:34:54 GMT -5
aarrgghh really wow As much as i want MT fired i am leaning towards the " who will fill in for him " side of that coin the question at hand is which would be better. An interim for the remainder of the season followed by a replacement in the off season (or an extension for the interim if he pans out) or MT for the rest of the year On one hand I think an interim may not be the answer as If the player's are seemingly only playing for themselves inspite of MT one could argue nothing will really change if an Interim replacement is put behind the bench. But on the other hand you could say that The interim may at least have the intelligence to get some kind of structure to the team as opposed to the free for all we are seeing. anyone got any waffles i still have some syrop left
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 18, 2002 18:37:48 GMT -5
Alright, Hartley is definitely a very good candidate to replace MT...
after-all:
-he is good with youngsters(guys like Tanguay, Drury, Hejduk, Vrbata always played on the top lines right from the start of their careers)
-has won a cup
-seems to get along with veterans
-Speaks french
Very good candidate IMO
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Post by Viper on Dec 18, 2002 18:41:32 GMT -5
you forgot
-the avs had a system.
-Therrien is replacable by lab rats if nesacary so Hartley is fine.
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 18, 2002 18:42:34 GMT -5
well his system was basically a defensive minded one with the talent they had that doesn't make much sense.
BTW Granato will replace him.
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Post by habmeister on Dec 18, 2002 19:48:50 GMT -5
well his system was basically a defensive minded one with the talent they had that doesn't make much sense. BTW Granato will replace him. With our goaltending a defensive minded system would be perfect. I'd rather see us play a counter attacking and forechecking game than whatever we're playing under MT. I'm still trying to figure out what system we have.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Dec 18, 2002 19:50:00 GMT -5
Not too sure 'bout the guy.
The Avs fan out there have been saying about Hartley what we're saying about Therrien. No system, no strategy, can't get the team to play together, etc... Sure the guy won in the NHL, but who wouldn't win with a team like the AVs...
Therrien learned from Hartley in the junior so the both of them could be strangely similar...
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 18, 2002 19:54:58 GMT -5
I heard Granato is not doing this on a interim basis...he IS their head coach
True Doc...both MT and Hartley are buds...they may have the same defaults..
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Post by montreal on Dec 18, 2002 20:12:53 GMT -5
Not too sure 'bout the guy. The Avs fan out there have been saying about Hartley what we're saying about Therrien. No system, no strategy, can't get the team to play together, etc... Sure the guy won in the NHL, but who wouldn't win with a team like the AVs... Therrien learned from Hartley in the junior so the both of them could be strangely similar... Yea I agre, not so sure about him either. I wrote the same things you said over at HF. It would be funny though, as AV and MT are friends, then MT takes over for AV, and MT and BH are friends, so it would be funny if Hartley took over for his friend Therrien. But we would still need a replacement for Rick Green.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Dec 18, 2002 20:51:22 GMT -5
Yea I agre, not so sure about him either. I wrote the same things you said over at HF. It would be funny though, as AV and MT are friends, then MT takes over for AV, and MT and BH are friends, so it would be funny if Hartley took over for his friend Therrien. But we would still need a replacement for Rick Green. IMO we're not about to see Therrien fired. Though he obviously has lost the dressing room a long time ago, HABS are 6th in the East and 2 games over 500. We keep expecting this big meltdown and slide to hell, but it's just not happening. As for Green, to me, it's mind boggling that such an horrible defense stays intact from the players to the coach... And let's not talk about Charron's special units... These 2 clowns (Charron and Green) are a thousand time worst then Therrien and I have this fear that Charron is the next head coach in Savard's mind... I'm really not in any hurry to see Therrien leave and have Charron/Green take on the team... ****shiver***
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Post by seventeen on Dec 18, 2002 20:55:36 GMT -5
I speculated on this earlier as perhaps being the reason AS hadn't given MT the axe already.
Give me a break guys. Hartley has won at the juniour level, he's won the Calder cup in the AHL and he's won the Stanley Cup. He managed a situation with Roy a couple of years ago very adroitly and he uses an aggressive game with no trapping. He's had 4 good years and then when his goaltending goes for a holiday on him this year, you guys start questioning whether he's any good or not. So MT worked with him. Did Hartley go running for MT when he got the coaching job in Colorado? Of course not. I work with some twits. Just because they go on to other things, should I be branded with their incompetent brush? What were the specifics of Hartley's 'work' with Therrien? Do they use the same system? Are there any similarities outside of the fact they both speak Fench.
I see Colorado more often than most of you in the East. The Avalanche players work hard, they're organized, they get out of their end well etc., etc. Yes, he has some pretty good players, but remember too, that they have fewer good players now than they've had in a while. Some of their best young talent has gone to other teams in those draft deadline deals. On defense they have Blake (high risk, high return), Foote (solid), Skoula (I think he's good, but he's been on the block in rumours lately) and Morris, who has better press clippings than his actual play. The Avs gave up 2 pretty good players (Drury and Yelle) to get Morris, and he hasn't progressed (he will eventually) to where he's equal value yet. The Avs have their worst team in years and it's not like they're out of it. They're just not walking away with their division like they usually do. If Savard doesn't reach out for this guy, I think he's confirming to me that he lacks the skills to be a good GM. Of course, he has to give Hartley some breathing room before he phones, but Calgary's still looking for a guy, so I'd make it sooner rather than later.
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 18, 2002 20:57:59 GMT -5
and he uses an aggressive game with no trapping. I you sure about that? Avs fans are saying Hartley had them playing a conservative/defensive style that really wasn't helping out their offence(and players like Tanguay).
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Post by seventeen on Dec 18, 2002 21:08:49 GMT -5
The Av players check strongly, Marc, both in forechecking and backchecking. They've always impressed me with their level of effort and their transition game. We criticize Mt for a lot of little things too, (besides the very big things for which he should be canned) so maybe the Avs fans are spoiled and mad about not being in 1st place by 10 points. I forgot to mention earlier that in the Avs/Wings series last playoffs, Hartley was not outcoached by Bowman...and that's saying a lot. He just didn't have the horses. You can't overestimate the factor of goaltending. Patrick has not had a good year. Where would we be if Hackett hadn't played so well? There have been more good coaches fired because of bad goaltending than for any other reason. (Just ask Don Cherry about Hardy Astrom) Conversely there are coaches who have kept their jobs because of good goaltending. Do we know any of those? And Doc, what have you got against Charron? Guy's (sorry, bad pun) here for 2 1/2 months and is branded a nincompoop. At least give him a year like MT and Green. Got an inside scoop the rest of us don't know about?
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Post by Doc Holliday on Dec 18, 2002 21:22:38 GMT -5
I speculated on this earlier as perhaps being the reason AS hadn't given MT the axe already. Give me a break guys. Hartley has won at the juniour level, he's won the Calder cup in the AHL and he's won the Stanley Cup. He managed a situation with Roy a couple of years ago very adroitley and he uses an aggressive game with no trapping. He's had 4 good years and then when his goaltending goes for holiday on him this year, you guys start questioning whether he's any good or not. So MT worked with him. Did Hartley go running for MT when he got the coaching job in Colorado? Of course not. I work with some twits. Just because they go on to other things, should I be branded with their incompetent brush? What were the specifics of Hartley's 'work' with Therrien? Do they use the same system? Are there any similarities outside of the fact they both speak Fench. I see Colorado more often than most of you in the East. The Avalanche players work hard, they're organized, they get out of their end well etc., etc. Yes, he has some pretty good players, but remember too, that they have fewer good players now than they've had in a while. Some of their best young talent has gone to other teams in those draft deadline deals. On defense they have Blake (high risk, high return), Foote (solid), Skoula (I think he's good, but he's been on the block in rumours lately) and Morris, who has better press clippings than his actual play. The Avs gave up 2 pretty good players (Drury and Yelle) to get Morris, and he hasn't progressed (he will eventually) to where he's equal value yet. The Avs have their worst team in years and it's not like they're out of it. They're just not walking away with their division like they usually do. If Savard doesn't reach out for this guy, I think he's confirming to me that he lacks the skills to be a good GM. Of course, he has to give Hartley some breathing room before he phones, but Calgary's still looking for a guy, so I'd make it sooner rather than later. In the junior, Therrien went to the final twice with Laval and won the memorial cup with Granby. In the AHL, he got Fredericton to the East finals and Quebec to be champion of the Atlantic division. He gave the HABS a winning record last year and has the team playing 2 games over 500 this year. Many think that Therrien is just a bozo but when you look at his profile, he's got a pretty impressive record and we could do a whole lot worst then him. Hartley has a similar record then the HABS this year with a team like Colorado... Either MT is doing a good job or BH is doing a poor one.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Dec 18, 2002 21:32:02 GMT -5
The Av players check strongly, Marc, both in forechecking and backchecking. They've always impressed me with their level of effort and their transition game. We criticize Mt for a lot of little things too, (besides the very big things for which he should be canned) so maybe the Avs fans are spoiled and mad about not being in 1st place by 10 points. I forgot to mention earlier that in the Avs/Wings series last playoffs, Hartley was not outcoached by Bowman...and that's saying a lot. He just didn't have the horses. You can't overestimate the factor of goaltending. Patrick has not had a good year. Where would we be if Hackett hadn't played so well? There have been more good coaches fired because of bad goaltending than for any other reason. (Just ask Don Cherry about Hardy Astrom) Conversely there are coaches who have kept their jobs because of good goaltending. Do we know any of those? And Doc, what have you got against Charron? Guy's (sorry, bad pun) here for 2 1/2 months and is branded a nincompoop. At least give him a year like MT and Green. Got an inside scoop the rest of us don't know about? Charron took over Carbo as the PK coach and we're now standing 29th with about the same players that Carbo had. Anaheim is finally having a good season now that Charron has left this organization. Could all be coincidence...
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 18, 2002 21:49:18 GMT -5
Charron took over Carbo as the PK coach and we're now standing 29th with about the same players that Carbo had. Anaheim is finally having a good season now that Charron has left this organization. Could all be coincidence... Anaheim's success has more to do with adding Chistov, Oates, a healthy Rucchin and Sykora in the lineup while only costing them Friesen and Tverdovski. And Giguere is turning into a major stud in goal.
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Post by seventeen on Dec 18, 2002 22:15:54 GMT -5
Charron took over Carbo as the PK coach and we're now standing 29th with about the same players that Carbo had. Anaheim is finally having a good season now that Charron has left this organization. Could all be coincidence... I read an article a short while ago, where Charron tried installing a new PK system at the start of the season. It was hugely unsuccessful, so they went back to collapsing in front of the goalie like last year. The results are better since then, but probably not substantially better. I suspect it's more along the lines of what Marc is saying. There is probably a pretty good correlation between a team's PK and the save percentage of its' goaltenders. If you were going to rate a team's PK unit numerically, you'd have to find some sort of control or weighting for that factor, and for the quality of the defencemen and PK forwards too. Which turns it into a subjective rating anyways. Scouts, we need scouts to give us the inside scoop (Thats scouts as in plural).
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Post by Doc Holliday on Dec 18, 2002 22:16:13 GMT -5
Marc, Oates played 16 games, he has no goals, 7pts and -4... Wouldn't call that a deciding factor. Chistov is coming in nicely but at 5g and 14pts in 30 games, again I wouldn't say he's the difference. Giguere is having an amazing season, but the team as a whole is much better. PK and PP are doing very good and they're also dominant in the faceoff circle.
Anaheim felt that Charron wasn't gonna be part of the solution there and frankly nobody can say that they were not right...
As for his tenure in Montreal as the PK coach, well, I am not impressed.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Dec 18, 2002 22:29:45 GMT -5
I read an article a short while ago, where Charron tried installing a new PK system at the start of the season. It was hugely unsuccessful, so they went back to collapsing in front of the goalie like last year. The results are better since then, but probably not substantially better. I suspect it's more along the lines of what Marc is saying. There is probably a pretty good correlation between a team's PK and the save percentage of its' goaltenders. If you were going to rate a team's PK unit numerically, you'd have to find some sort of control or weighting for that factor, and for the quality of the defencemen and PK forwards too. Which turns it into a subjective rating anyways. Scouts, we need scouts to give us the inside scoop (Thats scouts as in plural). Well there could be good technical analysis that can be done fer sure. With correlations, percentages, extrapolations, test scenarios, benchmarkings and the whole nine yard. Maybe Charron's progressive, futuristic, tactical approach isn't getting through. For a simple fan like me though, looking at the Anaheim and Montreal situation over the last 2 years, I resume it like so: Given about the same lineups: No Charron PK good With Charron PK bad Then Charron not good. grumph! The Neanderthal approach.
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Post by seventeen on Dec 18, 2002 22:39:34 GMT -5
Oh sure, go high tech on me!
Cretacean Man
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Post by Doc Holliday on Dec 18, 2002 22:46:20 GMT -5
Here's a more interesting scenario then Hartley to Montreal IMO...
Hartley doesn't take any job this winter as he wants to wait and see what will open up in the summer (after all, he still has a contract in hand...)
St-Louis goes through another bad playoff run, so Hartley gets hired and Quenneville gets the Axe. Savard hires Quenneville. Quenneville does tabula rasa with Green/Charron and Co. and gets Robinson in. HABS start next season with Quenneville/Robinson.
That would be something sweet...
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Post by montreal on Dec 18, 2002 22:48:26 GMT -5
Charron took over Carbo as the PK coach and we're now standing 29th with about the same players that Carbo had. Anaheim is finally having a good season now that Charron has left this organization. Could all be coincidence... Well if you look at last year's numbers, we were 5th on the PK and Charron's Ducks (who sucked) were 7th in the NHL. He came over and tried a new system, it didn't work. But it has been a lot better, and if our best PKer (Theodore) keeps playing better like he has, then our PK will get better. Before the Sens game, we had only let in 1 PP goal over the last few games and had moved up to 27th or 28th, but then we played against the #2 PP in the league, and let 2 PP goals in. I'll say this, the PK has been better of late, for whatever reasons. But it has to be much better still. I'll refrane from any judgement on Charron yet, but I do pray he does not take over for MT. As for the Ducks, they do have a lot of new players, and they seem to be turning it around.
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Post by Pam on Dec 19, 2002 0:41:47 GMT -5
Not too sure 'bout the guy. The Avs fan out there have been saying about Hartley what we're saying about Therrien. No system, no strategy, can't get the team to play together, etc... Sure the guy won in the NHL, but who wouldn't win with a team like the AVs... Therrien learned from Hartley in the junior so the both of them could be strangely similar... Apparently the Avs fans have forgotten that it was Hartley's coaching is what got them that last Cup. Fans forget fast, don't they. How about Darryl Sutter? He's a Defensive minded Coach. Maybe he would work on the Habs better than MThead. Should I duck now or later? ;D
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Post by Andrew on Dec 19, 2002 10:12:52 GMT -5
Apparently the Avs fans have forgotten that it was Hartley's coaching is what got them that last Cup. Fans forget fast, don't they. That's a good point, but I'd argue that the 2000 Avs Cup was all about Ray Bourque, right from day 1 of the season. I don't think it would have mattered who they had behind the bench that season: they were an extremely talented team that were 100% motivated. Looking at the past two seasons, they're still among the leagues most talented teams, and have been floundering. I'll admit that I haven't watched the Avs many times this season, though when I have they've looked aweful. Consider this stat: When the Avs have held the lead in the 3rd period, this season, they have a record of: 9 Wins - 0 Losses - 7 Ties - 2 OTLosses. Elite teams don't cough up the lead in the 3rd, they bury their opponents. Hartley had elite talent performing at a mediocre level. I'm not sold on the guy.
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Post by habernac on Dec 19, 2002 11:20:51 GMT -5
I'd argue that it was all about Patrick Roy, Mr Conn Smythe. Bourque was a factor but Patrick was his usual stellar self in goal. I'm not sold on Hartley, either. I could have coached a team like the Avs to their records of the past few seasons just by making sure the guys changed lines on a timely basis.
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 19, 2002 11:23:41 GMT -5
Marc, Oates played 16 games, he has no goals, 7pts and -4... Wouldn't call that a deciding factor. Chistov is coming in nicely but at 5g and 14pts in 30 games, again I wouldn't say he's the difference. Giguere is having an amazing season, but the team as a whole is much better. PK and PP are doing very good and they're also dominant in the faceoff circle. But you can't say they are good only because Charron left. They are simply a deeper team now with those additions. And Anaheim's PK was 7th WITH Charron at the helm last year...
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 19, 2002 11:26:05 GMT -5
Here's a more interesting scenario then Hartley to Montreal IMO... Hartley doesn't take any job this winter as he wants to wait and see what will open up in the summer (after all, he still has a contract in hand...) St-Louis goes through another bad playoff run, so Hartley gets hired and Quenneville gets the Axe. Savard hires Quenneville. Quenneville does tabula rasa with Green/Charron and Co. and gets Robinson in. HABS start next season with Quenneville/Robinson. That would be something sweet... You can say the same thing about Martin getting fired after the Sens choke in the playoffs... Quenneville or Martin would be excellent coaches for this team.
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 19, 2002 14:28:05 GMT -5
You can say the same thing about Martin getting fired after the Sens choke in the playoffs... Quenneville or Martin would be excellent coaches for this team. I live in Ottawa and I like watching the Sens (I am a habs fan through and through, though). The thing that drives me nuts about Martin is that he has a few offensive studs on the Sens, but they get held back by this defensive system Martin uses. We're talking about guys like Alfredsson, Hossa, Havlat etc. The Sens should be the monsters of the East, but they aren't and I think it's because of Martin's system and I don't think Lalime is a star goalie... a good goalie, but not a star.
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Nai
Rookie
Posts: 8
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Post by Nai on Dec 19, 2002 14:45:29 GMT -5
A coach can not do it all by himself. My point: coaching staff has a lot to do with the systems (PK, PP, def. zone coverage, forecheck.....). Even a legendary coach like Bowman was not running the practices or designing systems. Lewis was taking care of that part. BNowman was good at game and people management.
Here in Montreal we have Therrien, Green, Charron and Melanson (plus Jodoin). Melanson is amazing with the goalies. What are the strenghts of Michel Therrien. Obviously if the guy made it there he's got some! IMO he's pretty good at motivating the guys and getting the best out of them. He's more driving on emotions than on systems or tactics. So we need assistant coaches with strong technical background...
Should I start a petition to get the assistant coaches fired? Ha!
Anyways, I think Therrien is doing a decent job so far and I don't feel it's time to change him. Wait next year or maybe in 2 years when the prospects finally reach the NHL. Then we could look for a guy like Martin or Quenneville.
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 19, 2002 15:39:50 GMT -5
A coach can not do it all by himself. My point: coaching staff has a lot to do with the systems (PK, PP, def. zone coverage, forecheck.....). Even a legendary coach like Bowman was not running the practices or designing systems. Lewis was taking care of that part. BNowman was good at game and people management. Here in Montreal we have Therrien, Green, Charron and Melanson (plus Jodoin). Melanson is amazing with the goalies. What are the strenghts of Michel Therrien. Obviously if the guy made it there he's got some! IMO he's pretty good at motivating the guys and getting the best out of them. He's more driving on emotions than on systems or tactics. So we need assistant coaches with strong technical background... Should I start a petition to get the assistant coaches fired? Ha! Anyways, I think Therrien is doing a decent job so far and I don't feel it's time to change him. Wait next year or maybe in 2 years when the prospects finally reach the NHL. Then we could look for a guy like Martin or Quenneville. If what you say is true then Dave King would have been a great fit with MT.
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