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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 7, 2002 8:55:00 GMT -5
www.cyberpresse.ca/reseau/sports/0212/spo_102120165469.htmlSeason over and it could take next year and the year after as well The Habs version of Carl Pavano. We have to stop projecting him in our defence.Anything we get from Sheldon is a bonus. We need to find a big/tough/mean left d-man now to complement the offensive skill of Markov and Hainsey
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Post by KR on Dec 7, 2002 9:50:06 GMT -5
Don't hold your breath waiting for that deal. Haven't you heard? AS LIKES his team. He likes those deals where you give up nothing like Asham for the big star like Czerkawski . Maybe he'll move Hainsey for Lumme.
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Post by montreal on Dec 7, 2002 12:46:08 GMT -5
Don't hold your breath waiting for that deal. Haven't you heard? AS LIKES his team. He likes those deals where you give up nothing like Asham for the big star like Czerkawski . Maybe he'll move Hainsey for Lumme. Thats funny, cause what I read was that Savard wants to get a tough defencemen. I think he was waiting for Souray to come back (since he was due back any week now) and now that he's not, well maybe he will start working the phones more. But I would love to hear just who you think Savard could go and get with the crap thats on this team? You make fun of the Chow deal, but he traded a guy that would be in the press box, for a 35 goal scorer (although I have no ideal how this guy ever scorer 35 goals) so the ideal is great, its just that the results aren't. We don't have a lot of talent, so how can we get something good in return without giving up a key player. So who would you trade? Hainsey, Markov, Zednik, Komisarek, Hossa, cause thats what we would have to give up to get something really good in return, IMO.
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Post by darz on Dec 7, 2002 12:59:57 GMT -5
Thats funny, cause what I read was that Savard wants to get a tough defencemen. I think he was waiting for Souray to come back (since he was due back any week now) and now that he's not, well maybe he will start working the phones more. But I would love to hear just who you think Savard could go and get with the crap thats on this team? You make fun of the Chow deal, but he traded a guy that would be in the press box, for a 35 goal scorer (although I have no ideal how this guy ever scorer 35 goals) so the ideal is great, its just that the results aren't. We don't have a lot of talent, so how can we get something good in return without giving up a key player. So who would you trade? Hainsey, Markov, Zednik, Komisarek, Hossa, cause thats what we would have to give up to get something really good in return, IMO. well said montreal! if you look at the list of guys AS has traded it's a pretty patetic group
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Post by seventeen on Dec 7, 2002 21:48:54 GMT -5
Thats funny, cause what I read was that Savard wants to get a tough defencemen. I think he was waiting for Souray to come back (since he was due back any week now) and now that he's not, well maybe he will start working the phones more. But I would love to hear just who you think Savard could go and get with the crap thats on this team? You make fun of the Chow deal, but he traded a guy that would be in the press box, for a 35 goal scorer (although I have no ideal how this guy ever scorer 35 goals) so the ideal is great, its just that the results aren't. We don't have a lot of talent, so how can we get something good in return without giving up a key player. So who would you trade? Hainsey, Markov, Zednik, Komisarek, Hossa, cause thats what we would have to give up to get something really good in return, IMO. That guy that would have been in the press box, is on the ice in NY and while he's still making HA wince, he actually is producing results. Love that word...results. I'd rather be lucky than good and to me results are much preferred to good ideas (Well, not really because good ideas usually lead to results). Face it Montreal, AS made that deal without anyone twisting his arm. There were a few of us nimnulls on this board who thought it was a poor idea at the time (look up the history). And it's turned out badly...not because Czerk was anything other than advertised, but because he came as advertised and AS misunderstood that, or didn't make the adjustments to the rest of the team which would have changed things. If Hartley is fired in Colorado and AS signs him, all is forgiven.
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Post by Rhiessan on Dec 8, 2002 1:06:45 GMT -5
Hmmmmmmmmmm
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Post by montreal on Dec 8, 2002 1:56:58 GMT -5
That guy that would have been in the press box, is on the ice in NY and while he's still making HA wince, he actually is producing results. Love that word...results. I'd rather be lucky than good and to me results are much preferred to good ideas (Well, not really because good ideas usually lead to results). Face it Montreal, AS made that deal without anyone twisting his arm. There were a few of us nimnulls on this board who thought it was a poor idea at the time (look up the history). And it's turned out badly...not because Czerk was anything other than advertised, but because he came as advertised and AS misunderstood that, or didn't make the adjustments to the rest of the team which would have changed things. If Hartley is fired in Colorado and AS signs him, all is forgiven. But my point is, that Savard is getting heat for this deal. But if he didn't make that deal, then we have an extra 5th rounder, and Asham in the press box. So besides some money what do we lose? If Asham scores 100 goals, it doesn't matter per say, cause he wouldn't have done that here. Asham didn't have much of a future hear, at least in the next 2 years, and with Jason Ward around, he might never of had a future here. So Savard rolled the dice, gave up something that was already gone, no way does Asham crack the lineup (unless injuries occur) over Dackell and McKay. To me the deal made sense, in that, we weren't going to win the cup no matter this year. So he wanted to get more offence, and he took a player that might have been waived, or at the very least would hardly ever play this year, and got a player that has scored 35 goals before. It will either work or it wont, but he basiclly got a free trade, in that he moved a player that wasn't in the plans, for a one time All star that might get 20 goals for us. I don't like Chow cause he doesn't work hard, and just coasts out there with a half assed effort. But who knows what will happen, to me it was a minor move, that was a gamble that doesn't seem like its going to pay off. Well with our stop gap approach it makes sense to roll the dice, when your goal is to make the playoffs, and not give up any core assets or prime prospects/picks in doing so. He tried it with Berezin, it didn't work, but the loss was a 3rd in a weak draft that turned into a 4th. He tried it with Chow, its not working, but the loss is a 5th in a deep draft plus. I wish the gambles he made would have paid off, but they didn't/haven't but thats why you roll the dice. He is still sticking to the plan, IMO, and maybe down the road he will learn how to gamble a little better.
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Post by GoMtl on Dec 8, 2002 2:16:55 GMT -5
woah! "we weren't going to win the cup no matter what this year"... don't speak too soon, this season isn't over! we might just sqeak into the playoffs and go all the way. you never know what's gonna happen come play off time, if we can make it. the 93 team was by no means the best team in the regular season and they pulled it off. don't give me replies about how bad we are now compared to 93, just have faith and be optimistic that savard can make the deals so we can be that cinderella team again.
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Post by GoMtl on Dec 8, 2002 2:20:49 GMT -5
man, it always feels good to dream about stanley... the last one was nice, but i wasn't really of age to really appreciate it (grade 2)... although i do recall posting a sign that said "habs fans only" infront of my house, and painting my face and wearing the CH proudly on my chest the first school day after it. ;D
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Post by habwest on Dec 8, 2002 2:25:12 GMT -5
Well, if we keep the team on the ice that was there tonight, Czerk might actually be in a position, and the mood, to start scoring. Put Audette in street clothes and leave him there. Forget about him unless it's to make him disappear. Play Czerk 10+ minutes a game with somebody with some skill. Who knows, this Ribs/Czerk combo might actually amount to something, for both of them. Then the trade will pay off. Even if it doesn't I can't get too excited about losing Asham. He was a marginal player with the Habs despite plenty of opportunities. And as someone said, Ward may well be a better all round version of him anyway. I'm happy that AS is getting rid of the marginals like Asham. Even if the "established" players received in trade don't all pan out at least we're not clogging up the system long term with young mediocreties. I don't disagree with those who say that we need a balanced club but that doesn't necessarily translate into Asham being part of that solution. Let's face it, this guy is no Bob Gainey or Guy Carbonneau junior. I want better players to play that role (Ward?) so we really can have a contending club. As to AS saying he likes his team, I'm not sure what else he's supposed to say. "Yea, this bunch really stinks." Good way to motivate the boys and to encourage other GMs into a trade. "Hey, I've got a few stinking players I want you to take off my hands for one of your really good prospects. Yea I'm really desparate, so circle round vultures to take all my good young assets off my hands for your overpaid retreads." What AS was saying is just part of the GM game. Don't mean a whole lot. Just blowing smoke. Buying time. Biggest problems with this team right now are how to make Audette disappear, coaching and getting that big solid physical left side dman w/o mortaging the future. It looks like Souray might have to be another write off, like Audette. Montreal's albatross is no longer mass injuries but rather paying the salaries of fewer players who are injured beyond full recovery and because of that kidding ourselves that they "have" to be played or that they can still play. You gotta know when to cut your losses and move on. Listening Andre? Hah, easy for me to say.
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Post by montreal on Dec 8, 2002 12:03:14 GMT -5
woah! "we weren't going to win the cup no matter what this year"... don't speak too soon, this season isn't over! we might just sqeak into the playoffs and go all the way. you never know what's gonna happen come play off time, if we can make it. the 93 team was by no means the best team in the regular season and they pulled it off. don't give me replies about how bad we are now compared to 93, just have faith and be optimistic that savard can make the deals so we can be that cinderella team again. Well of course anything in happen in a season, or they wouldn't lace em up everyday. What I mean, is that as a GM you have to be realistic and have a plan put in place. We don't have the team that can be one of the top teams in the league (talent wise) so you bulid on your core assets with good drafting, and fill the team with veterans to fill the holes until the kids are ready. So Chow is just another vet, that was brought in for a short term fix, while not giving up much.
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Post by JohnnyVerdun on Dec 8, 2002 12:11:39 GMT -5
I can't get too excited about losing Asham. He was a marginal player with the Habs despite plenty of opportunities. And as someone said, Ward may well be a better all round version of him anyway. I was always a fan of Arron Asham. Maybe one of his biggest supporters. It grieved me deeply when Savard traded him. I still think he's going to be a solid third line player some day and will contribute 15 goals and grit. Losing him obviously wasn't a major sacrifice, but if Czerkawski is never properly utilized here, and we never get our money's worth out of him, it will hurt all the more that we gave up a solid NHL player in the deal. So far, Savard is losing this deal because there's insufficient space on our roster and a lack of will to use Chow in the role for which he was acquired. If Audette is somehow moved (Please Lord) and Czerk gets a regular shift, I'll feel a lot better because I know he'll put up some numbers. Otherwise, I'll be a bit bitter that we lost Asham for nothing....
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Post by Viper on Dec 8, 2002 13:21:43 GMT -5
But my point is, that Savard is getting heat for this deal. But if he didn't make that deal, then we have an extra 5th rounder, and Asham in the press box. So besides some money what do we lose? That's 2 for 2 on the failed gambles and the second one was more than that IMO. He failed to contemplate his acquisition's place in the lineup then when his coach failed miserably at utilizing that player in a scoring role he waives him The gamble part is fine but the lack of thought process that appears evident in the fact that we got more of what already had creating an even bigger mess in the lineup is what irks alot of people including myself. As for what we lost well thus far asham and a 5th for nothing is what we lost. Many will say it's a nothing for nothing deal but at the same time Chow is alot tuffer sell than Asham and the 5th as throw ins in another deal for something more significant don't you think. Maybe something we can use as opposed to something that already exists. I guess what bother's me is the gamble could've been for a left winger or a mediocre blueliner as opposed to another soft one dimensional right winger thast we had 2 of alredady not to mention softies like Perreault.
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Post by seventeen on Dec 8, 2002 14:52:12 GMT -5
But my point is, that Savard is getting heat for this deal. But if he didn't make that deal, then we have an extra 5th rounder, and Asham in the press box. So besides some money what do we lose? If Asham scores 100 goals, it doesn't matter per say, cause he wouldn't have done that here. Asham didn't have much of a future hear, at least in the next 2 years, and with Jason Ward around, he might never of had a future here. So Savard rolled the dice, gave up something that was already gone, no way does Asham crack the lineup (unless injuries occur) over Dackell and McKay. To me the deal made sense, in that, we weren't going to win the cup no matter this year. So he wanted to get more offence, and he took a player that might have been waived, or at the very least would hardly ever play this year, and got a player that has scored 35 goals before. It will either work or it wont, but he basiclly got a free trade, in that he moved a player that wasn't in the plans, for a one time All star that might get 20 goals for us. I don't like Chow cause he doesn't work hard, and just coasts out there with a half assed effort. But who knows what will happen, to me it was a minor move, that was a gamble that doesn't seem like its going to pay off. Well with our stop gap approach it makes sense to roll the dice, when your goal is to make the playoffs, and not give up any core assets or prime prospects/picks in doing so. He tried it with Berezin, it didn't work, but the loss was a 3rd in a weak draft that turned into a 4th. He tried it with Chow, its not working, but the loss is a 5th in a deep draft plus. I wish the gambles he made would have paid off, but they didn't/haven't but thats why you roll the dice. He is still sticking to the plan, IMO, and maybe down the road he will learn how to gamble a little better. Your logic is ok, though you've based it on Asham not playing at all. If we had a decent coach, we would have found a role for Asham, just like we could be finding a role for Czerkawski. So if Savard is going to get off the hook for a 'meaningless' deal, then you have to ask, why is this coach who can't utilize the assets, still here? I still feel we gave up on Asham too early. While you say he didn't impress you at all when he played, he looked ok to me for his stage of development, so on that point we'll just have to differ. Anyway, we just see the same scene from very different points of view. Cheers.
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Post by montreal on Dec 8, 2002 16:42:49 GMT -5
That's 2 for 2 on the failed gambles and the second one was more than that IMO. He failed to contemplate his acquisition's place in the lineup then when his coach failed miserably at utilizing that player in a scoring role he waives him The gamble part is fine but the lack of thought process that appears evident in the fact that we got more of what already had creating an even bigger mess in the lineup is what irks alot of people including myself. As for what we lost well thus far asham and a 5th for nothing is what we lost. Many will say it's a nothing for nothing deal but at the same time Chow is alot tuffer sell than Asham and the 5th as throw ins in another deal for something more significant don't you think. Maybe something we can use as opposed to something that already exists. I guess what bother's me is the gamble could've been for a left winger or a mediocre blueliner as opposed to another soft one dimensional right winger thast we had 2 of alredady not to mention softies like Perreault. So I guess we both agree that its good that Savard is at least trying to upgrade the skill, without giving up any MAJOR assets. Were talking about Asham not Hainsey or Hossa. Asham IMO is a 4th liner, and 4th liners aren't the hardest part of the team to upgrade, so moving a 4th liner than was in the press box most of the year, and with McKay around and Ward not far behind, Ashams future was limited and murky at best. So if people are upset at losing Asham, fine thats there beef with Savard, but I don't have a problem with that move. I understand Chow sucks and will be hard to move, but if you have the chance to get a guy that has scored 35 goals, and was an all star once, for a kid that was going to spend a lot of time on the pine, its a move you make hoping it works, if not oh well. As for getting a LW or blueliner, I agree, but if you go back to the summer, you have Hainsey and Souray in your plans, and now their not, so it looks like he should have gotten a defensemen, but I think he was hoping Hainsey would have done better, and Souray would have been back by now.
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Post by montreal on Dec 8, 2002 16:55:49 GMT -5
Your logic is ok, though you've based it on Asham not playing at all. If we had a decent coach, we would have found a role for Asham, just like we could be finding a role for Czerkawski. So if Savard is going to get off the hook for a 'meaningless' deal, then you have to ask, why is this coach who can't utilize the assets, still here? I still feel we gave up on Asham too early. While you say he didn't impress you at all when he played, he looked ok to me for his stage of development, so on that point we'll just have to differ. Anyway, we just see the same scene from very different points of view. Cheers. Well I don't agree, I saw Asham do some good things, but no way was he bringing it every night, night in and night out, thats why he was on the bench. Agree or disagree, either way he wasn't playing, and it was very doubtful he would have played much with McKay here. If they get Chow scoring some goals, it should make things a little easier for him here.
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Post by Viper on Dec 8, 2002 18:49:03 GMT -5
Ya that's True Montreal But i still don't believe the deal in getting Cerk was as much a no brainer as it seems. Talent wise bingo no complaints here that isn't rocket science i'm sold on that idea. But overall it hasn't really provided us with any more goals than we would have had without him because of the logjam on the right wing. even if Cerk and Audette and Petrov we're playing ok as opposed to the way they have been i suspect we would have seen little improvement. I think it was you who mentioned (if i'm mistaken i apologize.) that it was a good idea because Audette and Saku we're questionable because of injury. That being said the principle of acquiring Cerk holds more merit. I Think if your gambling on cerk regaining his form you might as well gamble on the Audette and Saku health thing and go out and acquire something different that is more appropriate to the lineup.
The bottom line for me is I think the trade was a jump the gun thing without realizing it's consequences in the big picture(we've seen how it played out and i suspected something like this on the day of the trade unless Savard already had a deal for Audette or Petrov in place that would have muted this whole discussion. )He saw the talent for the deal and made a snap desicion maybe without realizing how it would effect the team. I would much ssoner be at a point right now where we could have that 5th and Asham around as "potential" in a hackett deal or something along those lines too acquire something of signifigance.
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Post by Habsolutely on Dec 8, 2002 19:06:53 GMT -5
Well I don't agree, I saw Asham do some good things, but no way was he bringing it every night, night in and night out, thats why he was on the bench. Agree or disagree, either way he wasn't playing, and it was very doubtful he would have played much with McKay here. If they get Chow scoring some goals, it should make things a little easier for him here. And with the fact that we got Lindsay for free and we signed McKay, it was an easier decision for Savard to trade Asham for some scoring depth. I was a fan of Asham and always hoped that he would be a third or fourth line banger that we are all waiting for.. but the guy couldn't do it.. as frustrating as it was. In that case, you move on and try different things.. which is what Savard did.
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