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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 3, 2002 23:10:04 GMT -5
There are some fires that definitely have to be put out.
This situation is starting to blow now. I think Czekawski's demand for a trade is only the start right now. There might be more to follow. I'm not trying to start any more fires than are already lit, but consider these:
How long will Jeff Hackett continue to put up without a contract or a trade? Honestly, if Hack decides he's had enough, the rest of the season could be a disaster.
How long will José Théodore accept a 50/50 split with Hack? José has looked shaky, but I'm wondering if his downward play has anything to do with the distractions in the dressingroom.
How many more shoving matches will there be at scrimmage? Zednik and Dykhuis may only be one of a few to come. Hard to say really, but when the chemistry isnt' there ...
How soon before Koivu burns out? I think it was HA who noted how fatigued Saku is these days. Everyone has a breaking point and it isn't fair to Saku to let him shoulder the workload.
How long will it be before Craig Rivet's arm actually gives out? The last I heard, he was getting another opinion. Someone can help me on this, but is he still wearing a brace?
Is this an open rebellion by the players against Michel Therrien? Cashiering him might just be the first fire extinguished. I mean, if I were coach and my GM came down to the dressingroom to calm things down, I'd resign. Why wouldn't I? If you need outside influences to do what should be, your job ...
Apparently, there are four separate cliques in the dressingroom. Or, maybe four separate fires to put out. Unfortunately, Koivu can't do it on his own; he needs help.
Speaking of leadership ... hold on now ... leadership and the Habs ... we're throwing those terms around rather loosely aren't we? Seriously though, where are the leaders who are relied up to keep this team together?
Don't mind me, guys, it's just that I honestly feel the Czerkawski "fire" is only the start. I think we're going to see a few more big fires shortly.
Have a good night guys I'm heading to ground. Cheers.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Dec 3, 2002 23:33:48 GMT -5
Extract from the Therrien Talmud:
He who saves one shot gets to start the next game already, maybe?
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Post by Doc Holliday on Dec 3, 2002 23:43:29 GMT -5
Is it Savard I hear playing the violin ?
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Post by PTH on Dec 4, 2002 0:09:24 GMT -5
Is it Savard I hear playing the violin ? Ouch....
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Post by Vichab on Dec 4, 2002 0:18:17 GMT -5
what's so disturbing is that this board has been sounding the alarm for 3 or 4 weeks now and while nothing is done by AS, MT keeps making things worse. There is no doubt in my mind that AS has got himself in a jam with a number of players who can't help us and apparently other gms done think can help them. That does happen but when these players are getting huge salaries it gets real ugly AND THAT'S WHERE WE ARE.
It' is time to hit the panic button because while we are imploding thanks to AS and MT the teams who got off to a bad start have turned it around and will all be ahead of us shortly. We are now officially out of a playoff spot and still have teams gaining on us:
1) TO and Belfour have found there stride and while i don't think they have a very good team they have enough to play over 500 and beat us out if we have a prolonged slump;
2) NYI is starting to play better. I listenned to their game against Vanc tonight and the word is that with Peca back playing (23 mins and 33 shifts tonight) this is a different team. to add insult to injury Asham got a huge goal tonight and was a star ( although the talk in NY was that he was about to be sent down and he may have saved himself with this huge effort);
3) NYR has also turned it around and are playing much better even without Bure and Lindros lighting it up. I hate their chemistry and hopefully that will be their downfall but with Slats and money we can never relax;
We have to concede playoff spots to bruins, flyers, nj,ott, south east division champs and probably Pitt with a healthy Mario. That leaves 2 spots. I haven't mentioned Wash although given their talent they could turn it around ( I find them the most perplexing team in the league each year). Are we going to win the lottery and get one of those spots? Only if Theo can stand on his head again and AS figures a way out of this mess by getting rid of some smurfs and bringing in some hard hockey players. One thing i'm certain of, and i think AS is too, we are not going to the playoffs with the present roster. Although a new coach might make us better it's probably not enough and in any event things will have to get real ugly before AS fires MT. By then we will be far out of a playoff spot. So here's hoping AS can do something but like i said i think he's been trying but the other gms know we got little to offer.
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Post by seventeen on Dec 4, 2002 2:10:44 GMT -5
How different is this team from last year? Saku is back and playing well. Zednik has turned it up a notch and Bulis is playing well. Markov and Brisebois are much improved. Those are the positives.
Theo has gone from superhuman to average (worth 10 points). The new rules have made Quintal and Dykuis go from slightly below average to AHL status. Rivet has to be playing hurt. His performance has been sub standard. The rest of the forwards are generally much worse than last year. Gilmour has dropped off a lot. Perrault has kept up his decent play. Petrov less production. Asham is playing slightly better....oh sorry, for the wrong team, Audette is a vacuum. The one constant is our coaching. It was terrible last year and is still terrible. But it seems the players are not willing to tolerate it this year. Poor coaching begets cliques, self centredness, lack of effort, and a shortage of discipline.
Now I think 80% of our problems could be rectified with a new coaching staff. Excellence, or incompetence, both start from the top. Damn, I sound like a broken CD.
I've read that the best torturers never take away your hope, because as long as you think you can see light at the end of the tunnel, they can keep taking away your hope and destroying you again. Well, we lost hope with Houle and we think we got it back with Savard. Or are we just being tortured?
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Post by habwest on Dec 4, 2002 3:20:08 GMT -5
Good comments Seventeen. Last year the team focused on doing it for Koivu and Gilmour was unofficially accepted as the team leader while Theo played out of his mind. So MT's kind of Ra Ra approach to coaching could be accepted as part of the whole thing. Now of course it's quite different. Koivu is back, not in danger of losing his life, and Gilmour appears to pouting over on LW. Then there's the whole Czerk-Audette melodrama. Dis lists some problems many of which a good coach probably could sort out but MT appears incapable of managing either systems or people and this talent is sorely lacking in what is admittedly a pretty tricky situation.
However I'm not so sure panicking would help, just lead to bad decisions. I'm not saying changes should not be made, just that they should be based on clear thinking and not done precipitously.
As for ol' AS fiddling, what's this fiddle faddle...ahem. He's much too normal anyway to pull a Nero; that would take a much more interesting character.
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 4, 2002 8:38:53 GMT -5
what's so disturbing is that this board has been sounding the alarm for 3 or 4 weeks now and while nothing is done by AS, MT keeps making things worse. 3 or 4 weeks? many of us saw this coming in the summer Once again, here at HabsRus, we called it...
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Post by KR on Dec 4, 2002 8:54:18 GMT -5
3 or 4 weeks? many of us saw this coming in the summer Once again, here at HabsRus, we called it... It was called by just about every Hab fan anywhere. Apparently, the only people that couldn't see it were the one's that are paid to see it. I see the whole management team going if Savard doesn't act within days. If he hasn't the guts fire Therrein he needs to take the fall himself. If he doesn't think Therrien needs to go then he needs to take the fall himself. I've lost all respect for Andre Savard. He's stood by and watched this team go downhill while offering up ridiculous statements to the press slamming his players. What a buffoon. I hope he gets the axe.
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 4, 2002 9:02:27 GMT -5
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Post by Habsolutely on Dec 4, 2002 10:26:53 GMT -5
It was called by just about every Hab fan anywhere. Apparently, the only people that couldn't see it were the one's that are paid to see it. I see the whole management team going if Savard doesn't act within days. If he hasn't the guts fire Therrein he needs to take the fall himself. If he doesn't think Therrien needs to go then he needs to take the fall himself. I've lost all respect for Andre Savard. He's stood by and watched this team go downhill while offering up ridiculous statements to the press slamming his players. What a buffoon. I hope he gets the axe. No chance in hell.. Savard is in MTL for a long time.. It's unbelievable how some people can talk with their heart and not with their head..
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Post by montreal on Dec 4, 2002 16:59:00 GMT -5
No chance in hell.. Savard is in MTL for a long time.. It's unbelievable how some people can talk with their heart and not with their head.. I agree. Over the summer, Savard was great, not he sucks and should be fired? I don't get it. Just 2 years ago this team was the worst in Habs history, and Savard turned the corner for us. But now, cause were only slightly above .500, he is doing a bad job, and should be fired? I really dont get it. Did any Hab fan think we had a chance to win the cup this year? I don't care who is the GM or coach, this team is not going to win the cup this year, or the conference, or the division. You just don't go from 23rd in the league and one of the worst seasons in team history, to a great or really good team. Yes they are an average team, but we are lucky that they are that. A team that has a chance to make the playoffs again, while still getting a decent pick in the draft, and not giving up any serious assets besides money.
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Post by zenseeker on Dec 4, 2002 17:13:48 GMT -5
Your right Montreal is on fire, and AS ain't no firefighter. AS unless he starts getting his act together, should be fired next summer how much longer must the fans endure his reign of futility. His master plan of not doing anything is so antiquated in its nature, that i'm amazed that a man of so few skills could be the GM of the greatest hockey franchise ever. Everyone makes mistakes but when they start becoming constant that is when a change needs to be made.
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Post by montreal on Dec 4, 2002 17:22:36 GMT -5
Your right Montreal is on fire, and AS ain't no firefighter. AS unless he starts getting his act together, should be fired next summer how much longer must the fans endure his reign of futility. His master plan of not doing anything is so antiquated in its nature, that i'm amazed that a man of so few skills could be the GM of the greatest hockey franchise ever. Everyone makes mistakes but when they start becoming constant that is when a change needs to be made. Why wait then? If he's so bad, why not fire everyone. Whats the difference between now and this summer? So even though we are over .500, he is making lots of mistakes? Just what are these mistakes? Chow, who we are still stuck with, cost us a 5th and Asham, not a big loss, IMO. What else?
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Post by zenseeker on Dec 4, 2002 17:45:19 GMT -5
If you fire AS right now the replacement will fire MT. That is too much for a team to handle during the season. As far as mistakes, which i'm amazed you(Montreal) can't see, the biggest one in he is doing nothing. His reactive manangement style is something you would see in the 1970's not in the year 2002. He resigned MTand company and continues to let them have a job. He has a top 10 payroll but has a team that is very lucky to be over .500 and was blessed to get as far as they did last season. How many games in a row do we have to be outshot? He has continued to acquire players who are old, one-dimensional, and overpayed. These trades have left him with assets that are hard to move and are declining in their value. His comments to the media of late have been a disgrace. This reflects not only on himself but on the franchise. He is leader of this franchise and he seems to have no Mission, No Vision, and no Strategy. In the end it comes down to the fact this man is in charge and he should be held responsible for the success and stability of the organization. If the franchise was owned by shareholders AS would not be here today.
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Post by habfan4 on Dec 4, 2002 18:27:17 GMT -5
I can empathize with those who want Therrien's head on a platter, but head hunting AS is a little over the top.
Any complaints about his drafting? (I don't think so) Any complaints about personnel decisions? (No doubt, But then name a GM who hasn't dropped the ball!) Any complaints in choice in coach? (Got me there, but AS inherited Therrien)
Perhaps it's the expectations of fans that need to be reviewed. When Savard took over this team, it had no direction, few NHL level assets and virtually no farm team assets. The only way to make a team such as that competitive (not a contender mind you) in two years, is to throw money around. AS went and got some NHL "depth" and he spent a tonne of cash to do it, it's called a band aid, and it's temporary (the Corey, Houle & Tremblay scarring will heal soon enough).
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Post by montreal on Dec 4, 2002 19:31:10 GMT -5
If you fire AS right now the replacement will fire MT. That is too much for a team to handle during the season. As far as mistakes, which i'm amazed you(Montreal) can't see, the biggest one in he is doing nothing. His reactive manangement style is something you would see in the 1970's not in the year 2002. He resigned MTand company and continues to let them have a job. He has a top 10 payroll but has a team that is very lucky to be over .500 and was blessed to get as far as they did last season. How many games in a row do we have to be outshot? He has continued to acquire players who are old, one-dimensional, and overpayed. These trades have left him with assets that are hard to move and are declining in their value. His comments to the media of late have been a disgrace. This reflects not only on himself but on the franchise. He is leader of this franchise and he seems to have no Mission, No Vision, and no Strategy. In the end it comes down to the fact this man is in charge and he should be held responsible for the success and stability of the organization. If the franchise was owned by shareholders AS would not be here today. So Savard has done nothing? How so, cause he didn't fire the coach? The teams over .500 so its not like we are Buffalo with just 4 wins. The average team is playing average and most likely will continue to play average. I don't agree with firing Therrien, unless a much better replacement can be found. Maybe Savard can't find a replacement. Everyone is so fast to say Fire Therrien. But not so fast to say who replaces him. We just can't put anyone back there, cause if they struggle then what fire the replacement coach? Therrien got this team into the the playoffs, and is over .500 this year, so it's not that hard to figure that he's still the coach. Everyone blames MT, but for some reason, they let the players off the hook. What a bunch of crap! When Chow doesn't play well, it's Therrien's fault, when Petrov doesn' play well it MT's fault, same with Gilmor, Perreault, Ribeiro Hainsey etc.. I watch the games, I see bad efforts from certain players, I get mad at that player, not the coach, but that's just me. I dont blame Savard, I think he's doing a good job, he's turned the corner for us, and in a few years we will be a better team, but it takes time, and wont happen over night. The real test for Savard will be, IMO, can he keep a good team together, but thats a few years away.
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Post by zenseeker on Dec 4, 2002 19:47:21 GMT -5
This season AS has done nothing he has stood by as our team has gotten outplayed almost every game, their are new players complaining to the media every week, the players are fighting with each other. Something needs to be done. This is AS's responsibility. Sure we're over .500 but do we deserve to be. I really hope he starts taking some decisive action, and not continueing to hide under a pile of sheets.
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Post by montreal on Dec 4, 2002 19:56:06 GMT -5
This season AS has done nothing he has stood by as our team has gotten outplayed almost every game, their are new players complaining to the media every week, the players are fighting with each other. Something needs to be done. This is AS's responsibility. Sure we're over .500 but do we deserve to be. I really hope he starts taking some decisive action, and not continueing to hide under a pile of sheets. We have gotten outplayed every game? But yet we still have 10 wins. What does it matter if we deserve to be over .500? Should we give those wins back? What if Theo plays a little better in a few games, would you still want Savard to shake things up? As for doing nothing, he has done minor moves. He got Blouin, and sent down Garon. What do you want him to do? You not going to get anything of value for Audette, Chow, Petrov, Hackett, Dykhuis, Lindsay, Kilger, Ribeiro, Quintal, Gilmor, Garon. So why make a move just to say you made a move. It's only december and we are still over .500 (of course that should change after this week), as this team isn't out of anything yet, so why make big changes, just cause some fans want him too?
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 4, 2002 20:19:55 GMT -5
To be fair...
-We outplayed the Rangers
-We outplayed the Kings
-We outplayed the Devils
-We outplayed the Penguins in that OT win in Pitt
and I am sure I am forgetting one........
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Post by JFM on Dec 4, 2002 21:30:35 GMT -5
I have to agree, in principle, with Montreal. I, like everyone here, am not happy with what has been going on/off the ice. Everyone screams : make changes!!! fire Therrien!!!!!!! First point: How do we, the simple ( but PASSIONATE ) fans know what Savard is trying to do? Has anyone here bugged his office? Wire tappped the phones? I didn't think so. He will not make a move for the sake of it. Second point: we can all blame Jose for safeguarding MT's job ( and maybe some incriminating photos ) MT is the coach that got this team into the playoffs for the first time in 4 long years ( an eternity for us old timers and fogies raised on the Habs dynasties of the 50's -70's). Unfortunately we are stuck with this "situation" for a while yet. On a parallel note..... If there ever was a year that I wouldn't mind (too much) for the Habs to stink to high heaven, this is it. Wouldn't Nate Horton look mighty fine in a Habs Jersey? One last request: Please don't kill me for the last paragraph!!!! I don't know what got into me! Next time I should just my trap before letting my fingers do the walking.
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 4, 2002 22:08:37 GMT -5
On a parallel note..... If there ever was a year that I wouldn't mind (too much) for the Habs to stink to high heaven, this is it. Wouldn't Nate Horton look mighty fine in a Habs Jersey? One last request: Please don't kill me for the last paragraph!!!! I don't know what got into me! Next time I should just my trap before letting my fingers do the walking. Many of us have already said that in the chat ;D and with Horton, you could get him 2nd or 3rd or 4th overall. Zherdev is probably the first pick and who knows who could be picked before Horton.
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Post by montreal on Dec 5, 2002 0:43:57 GMT -5
Many of us have already said that in the chat ;D and with Horton, you could get him 2nd or 3rd or 4th overall. Zherdev is probably the first pick and who knows who could be picked before Horton. Well I have been reading up on the draft, and boy oh boy, this draft is deep indeed. I think the top 10 picks are solid and the top 30 should get you a decent to very good pick. If we end up around 15th again, and could maybe move up, we could land us a very talented prospect. Nilson from Sweden (Leksand, Eneqvist's team), Vanek (UMinosta), Stelick, Beriner, ect... damn this summer should be fun. Nashville holds the draft this year I think, boy are they lucky and doubtful they even know it. Way to go Batman, er I mean Bettman.
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Post by JFM on Dec 5, 2002 0:47:52 GMT -5
I know that, but Horton fills a more immediate need. A large first line centre!!!! Our very own Joe Thornton (potential!!!!!!!) where's the drooling smiley when you need it?
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Post by habernac on Dec 5, 2002 10:08:53 GMT -5
Maybe this team needs to go on a Flame-like losing streak in order for our GM to finally remove his head from a certain body cavity and fire the sad excuse that is our coach. bob Gainey would look good as a replacement. Maybe have Doug Jarvis and Larry Robinson help him out. I'm just tired of his poor decisions out there. Any idiot can see that Chow would be better on the 1st line than Audi ever could be. Kilger's size needs to be in our lineup of smurfs. Hell, maybe they should just hire me behind the bench..... My last name is French, think the media would accept me?
;D
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 5, 2002 10:23:26 GMT -5
Well I have been reading up on the draft, and boy oh boy, this draft is deep indeed. I think the top 10 picks are solid and the top 30 should get you a decent to very good pick. If we end up around 15th again, and could maybe move up, we could land us a very talented prospect. Nilson from Sweden (Leksand, Eneqvist's team), Vanek (UMinosta), Stelick, Beriner, ect... damn this summer should be fun. Nashville holds the draft this year I think, boy are they lucky and doubtful they even know it. Way to go Batman, er I mean Bettman. I agree. Great draft. Who knows maybe we can win the lottery or something and get a top 3 pick ;D It's about time this franchise had some luck somewhere. Beating all the odds and getting a top 3 pick would be sweet. But even a top 10 pick would be good enough for me. Again, here is the list of prospects available: www.hockeysfuture.com/Stats/Octrankings.phpThe link may not be working though.
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