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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 27, 2002 12:18:55 GMT -5
I saw this and I mean you look at the deals he made and the guys he drafted...maybe his resume is not as bad as we think? 1) J.J. Daigneault - for - Pat Jablonski in 1995 bah...(2) Pierre Turgeon, Craig Conroy, Rory Fitzpatrick - for - Shayne Corson, Murray Baron, 5th round pick (Gennady Razin) in 1996 horrible(3) Donald Brashear - for - Jason Cullimore in 1996 It turned out bad because we traded Culli but today he is a good d-man(4) Murray Baron, Chris Murray - for - Dave Manson Mediocre if not bad trade(5) Jocelyn Thibault, Dave Manson, Brad Brown - for - Jeff Hackett, Eric Weinrich, Alain Nasreddine, 4th round pick (Chris Dyment) in 1998 very good deal(6) Vincent Damphousse - for - 1st round pick (Marcel Hossa), 2nd round pick (traded away), 5th round pick (Marc-Andre Thinel) in 1999 Not that bad. Getting a first rounder in a good draft a 2nd rounder and a 5th for a UFA to be is, IMO, a decent move(7) Mark Recchi - for - Danius Zubrus, 2nd round pick (Matt Carkner), 6th round pick (Scott Selig) in 1999 Again. Not that bad. A 20 year old kid(at the time) with all kinds of ability, a 2nd rounder and a 6th for another UFA to be(8) 1st round pick (Branislav Mezei) - for - Trevor Linden in 1999 This was a bad one. Thank god AS was able to ship out Linden. Basically, we ended up with a worse player than Damphousse and a worse draft pick(we traded a 10th overall and got a 20th? overall)(9) Andrei Kovalenko - for - Scott Thorton in 1996 Good move. Thornton was still young at the time(25-26 years old) and Kovalenko was just a casual smurf.(10) Scott Thorton - for - Juha Lind in 2000 BRUTAL(11) Valeri Bure, 4th round pick (Shawn Sutter) - for - Jonas Hoglund, Zarley Zalapski in 1998 Brutal again(12) Lyle Odelein - for - Stephane Richer in 1996 Ugh. Bad trade(13) Stephane Richer, Darcy Tucker, David Wilkie - for Igor Ulanov, Patrick Poulin, Mick Vukota in 1998 Bad as well...(14) Igor Ulanov, Alain Nasreddine - for - Christian Laflamme, Matthieu Descoteaux in 2000 Not horrible, not great...(15) Peter Popovic - for - Sylvain Blouin, 6th round pick (traded away) in 1998 Mediocre(16) Vladimir Malahkov - for - Sheldon Souray, Josh DeWolf, 2nd round pick (traded away) in 2000 Good deal. A big young d-man who was 23-24 at the time, a decent prospect and a 2nd for a UFA to be(17) 3rd round pick (Mattais Weinhandl) - for - Scott Lachance in 1999 Not that bad. Too bad Lachance blossomed elsewhere(18) Patrick Roy, Mike Keane - for - Jocelyn Thibault, Martin Rucinsky, Andrei Kovalenko in 1995 The worst of the bunch(19) cash - for - Karl Dykhuis in 1999 Great move. Getting a steady d-man for nothingSome bad deals...but there were some good deals in there. Plus drafting Markov, Hainsey, Hossa, Ribeiro, Garon, Balej, Tarasov, Ward,etc Maybe the Foule was not as bad as we think he is?
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Post by Ranger Ranchod on Nov 27, 2002 12:34:54 GMT -5
Was Houle really that bad?
YES!
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Post by HabBoy on Nov 27, 2002 12:38:53 GMT -5
Well wasnt that bad, he was no Sam Pollock, but not that bad. Its funny, he made moves , good and bad , like Andre Savard, and, the fans sentiment was quite like it is now....then he got fired
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Post by Ranger Ranchod on Nov 27, 2002 12:39:23 GMT -5
(3) Donald Brashear - for - Jason Cullimore in 1996 It turned out bad because we traded Culli but today he is a good d-man(6) Vincent Damphousse - for - 1st round pick (Marcel Hossa), 2nd round pick (traded away), 5th round pick (Marc-Andre Thinel) in 1999 Not that bad. Getting a first rounder in a good draft a 2nd rounder and a 5th for a UFA to be is, IMO, a decent move(7) Mark Recchi - for - Danius Zubrus, 2nd round pick (Matt Carkner), 6th round pick (Scott Selig) in 1999 Again. Not that bad. A 20 year old kid(at the time) with all kinds of ability, a 2nd rounder and a 6th for another UFA to beTo be fair, If you're going to use hindsight (or not) to judge these trades you should do the same for every deal. Nonetheless, his horrible trades were HORRIBLE and his good trades didn't have nearly the impact on his team that the bad trades did. We won some marginal deals but got hosed on almost every name-player trade.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 27, 2002 12:41:06 GMT -5
Nonetheless, his horrible trades were HORRIBLE and his good trades didn't have nearly the impact on his team that the bad trades did. We won some marginal deals but got hosed on almost every name-player trade. we won some? you are a Rangers fan right? But you make a good point...one of the differences between Houle and Savard is AS never made a truly horrific deal where the other player went on to stardom on another team.
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Post by Ranger Ranchod on Nov 27, 2002 12:49:38 GMT -5
we won some? you are a Rangers fan right? I'm going to have to plead ignorance on this one... but the other part of your post, yeah, he did not do well with players blossoming elsewhere but he also had trouble dealing with the better, established players. Other than the Hackett-Thibault trade, which was good for both teams, whenever he gave up a good player he never got back full value in return. The Damphousse deal is still pending for judgement though... he's been very good for SJ, but we've yet to see what full returns the Habs will reap from it. I like Hossa though, I'm surprised he's not on the team already. He might not be fully-rounded out yet but he always manages to score when he gets called up, that really tells you something about a guy.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 27, 2002 13:25:01 GMT -5
I'm going to have to plead ignorance on this one... you said in your other post: '' We won some marginal deals but got hosed on almost every name-player trade. '' A Ranger/Habs fan? ;D
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Post by Ranger Ranchod on Nov 27, 2002 13:41:55 GMT -5
haha... oh, ok, I get it now... sorry, typo. Meant 'he' obviously... not particularly a Habs fan, no, but was a huge one when I was very young though.
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Post by montreal on Nov 27, 2002 17:32:11 GMT -5
As a player no he wasn't bad at all. But as a GM yes, yes he was that bad. It's largely his fault we are in this mess, as his bad trades, piss poor drafting, and mishandling of UFA's/RFA's (giving out big contracts to Linden, Hackett, Rosey). From what I understand, in his last draft, he left the drafting to his scouts. If thats the case, it was his best move, as 2000 was a decent draft year. Hainsey, Hossa, Balej, Eneqvist, Larrivee, Glenn, Selig, Puurula. Every time he made a trade, I would shudder awaiting to see how bad he screwed up. We had a decent team, and when he was fired, it was all but gone.
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Post by Habsolutely on Nov 27, 2002 18:36:09 GMT -5
He wasn't that bad... he was HORRIBLE.. BRUTAL..
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 27, 2002 19:29:37 GMT -5
Guys look at the trades...not all of them are horrible..
don't forget Molson also told him to cut plenty of payroll or at least not add to it.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 27, 2002 20:50:23 GMT -5
Well, Houle certainly didn't start off on the right foot. He was greatly influenced by his pal, Mario Tremblay and he really didn't know the business all that well, at least at the GM level anyway.
I thought Houle was finally coming around when Coco Lemaire came on the scene. Then again, I honestly thought that Lemaire was brought in to eventually replace Houle, but that just showed how little an in I had in Montreal Canadiens politics I guess.
Lemaire bolted as soon as a head coaching job came up and Houle started surrounding himself with very competent people. One of them was André Savard, who ended up taking Houle's job in the end.
And though he was finally starting to learn, he still had one major flaw as pointed out by Mrs.4um; he had no vision for the future. If anything, that was his major downfall IMHO.
Cheers.
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Post by montreal on Nov 27, 2002 21:11:47 GMT -5
Guys look at the trades...not all of them are horrible.. don't forget Molson also told him to cut plenty of payroll or at least not add to it. Well there's no way I will ever change my mind, Houle was my worst nightmare. His trades sucked. He gave away key players, and got little of value in return. His best deal was the Hackett deal. Damphousse wasn't too bad, but at the time he was one of my favorite players and to see him moved for some picks was a crushing blow after so many horrid mistakes. Then add his poor drafting and bad handling of contracts, UFA's, and in my mind Houle was that bad, if not worse.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 27, 2002 21:13:34 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong...he was a bad GM. A bad choice. A Bad nightmare. But I don't think he was the total fool people think he was.
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Post by UberCranky on Nov 27, 2002 21:14:53 GMT -5
No, he was not that bad. I heard that he could destroy a team faster then any other GM in history. In ANY sport. So you see, he was great at something. *cries*
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 27, 2002 21:17:04 GMT -5
You know, sometimes in life you regret something and you can't do anything about it? This is how I feel about this thread right now ;D
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Post by montreal on Nov 27, 2002 21:25:57 GMT -5
You know, sometimes in life you regret something and you can't do anything about it? This is how I feel about this thread right now ;D I remember sending an email to Houle (don't know if he ever got it, he never replyed) saying not to trade Malakov, and I swear it was the next day or so and bang he's gone. Not that I thought that Malakov was that great or anything, but he was talented and he could take the puck end to end for sure. But thats the way it goes. Souray was a young, big phyiscal defencemen and it was a good ideal, but who knew the guy was made of eggshells.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 27, 2002 22:18:12 GMT -5
Malakhov was a UFA and did his own Roy immitation at the end of a Habs game at the Molson center...he was done after that
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Post by Doc Holliday on Nov 27, 2002 23:06:13 GMT -5
You're right, some of his trades were not that bad when analyzed out of context but no matter how you flip it, Houle's mandate was purely and simply a disaster for the Montreal franchise.
He had no experience, no competence, no plan, no vision and was getting very little support from the owner. Houle's dedication to Molson may have been stronger then his love of the CH.
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Post by PTH on Nov 27, 2002 23:37:19 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong...he was a bad GM. A bad choice. A Bad nightmare. But I don't think he was the total fool people think he was. Agree on that much. Houle was IMO a good manager, but a bad hockey judge - he tried to build a team the right way (ie bring in some kids, sign the key veterans, deal away players in time, etc), but just didn't have the hockey knowledge to pull it off. Organisationally though, he did a lot of good things, going over the scouting, etc. As Doc says though, Houle has no support from ownership.... which explains how badly he did, but also why he did it so long - it was a very tough decision to change GMs when you consider that the new owner might have wanted to change, again. And Houle did one thing Serge Savard was too dorky to do - he hired his own replacement. That's something good managers do. (AS is basically the opposite, he has hockey knowledge, but does he have the rest ? Sometimes I wish we could make a cross between the two - one who'd have Houle's likeability and general managerial skills, and one with AS's scouting skills. )
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Post by zenseeker on Nov 28, 2002 4:00:17 GMT -5
Excellent post PTH couldn't agree more.
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Post by Habsolutely on Nov 28, 2002 10:09:05 GMT -5
(AS is basically the opposite, he has hockey knowledge, but does he have the rest ? Sometimes I wish we could make a cross between the two - one who'd have Houle's likeability and general managerial skills, and one with AS's scouting skills. ) Savard has the GM skills.. our team doesn't have a winning record for a second year in a row for nothing. However, thanks to the great Reggie and the ownership from the past, he has a lot of work ahead to bring this team back as a Cup contender. I can't believe you are that pessimistic about Savard.. it doesn't make sense. The guy smells confidence.. this is the way I look at it. Every move he makes, it's like it sure is going to work.. at least he tries. I remember you saying that the trade with Minnesota was wrong because he lost a 7th round pick.. so what ? You don't think he'll be able to get it back ?? Not only that, but he'll get a better pick. If only Theodore was playing at his best since the beginning of the year, this team would have been better and maybe Savard would not have taken so much heat.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 28, 2002 10:24:49 GMT -5
I remember you saying that the trade with Minnesota was wrong because he lost a 7th round pick.. so what ? You don't think he'll be able to get it back ?? Not only that, but he'll get a better pick. We are saying we could have kept the 7th and acquired an enforcer as a UFA or on waivers for nothing or just call up O'Dette and let him play 1/2 of the games and play 1:40 per game
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Post by montreal on Nov 28, 2002 14:02:32 GMT -5
We are saying we could have kept the 7th and acquired an enforcer as a UFA or on waivers for nothing or just call up O'Dette and let him play 1/2 of the games and play 1:40 per game Matt O'Dette sucks plain and simple. He should never play in the NHL, as he's not even a good fighter. So far he's dressed in 2 games in Hamilton, and did nothing when he played. Savard could of gotten Sandy McCarthy, but at 1.3M, it's not worth it.
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Post by Viper on Nov 28, 2002 14:09:56 GMT -5
Savard has the GM skills.. our team doesn't have a winning record for a second year in a row for nothing. However, thanks to the great Reggie and the ownership from the past, he has a lot of work ahead to bring this team back as a Cup contender. I can't believe you are that pessimistic about Savard.. it doesn't make sense. The guy smells confidence.. this is the way I look at it. Every move he makes, it's like it sure is going to work.. at least he tries. I remember you saying that the trade with Minnesota was wrong because he lost a 7th round pick.. so what ? You don't think he'll be able to get it back ?? Not only that, but he'll get a better pick. If only Theodore was playing at his best since the beginning of the year, this team would have been better and maybe Savard would not have taken so much heat. cerkawski trade not working berezin didn't work team structure and role player's are totally messed up we have an abundance of one dimensional right winger's only three useful defensemen nobody at center with any size and only one in koivu who is a top line talent and only one natural left winger. what exactly is it you consider Savard has done to be working besides acquiring talent that does not fit into the lineup. Take a step back and look at the big picture not just the simpleton talent for talent approach. There is no team here !!! the above paragragh explains that perfectly !!!! It is because of theodore's brilliance last year that Savard recieved credit and Therrien recieved credit they do not deserve now that The goaltending is not superhuman the truth about the lack of coaching and poor team structure that Savard has put in place is that much more obvious. The problem is the pedastel you put him on for the last season where we made the post season and first round upset when in reality it is Theodore who was responsible for that not Savard or Therrien.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 28, 2002 15:53:31 GMT -5
Matt O'Dette sucks plain and simple. He should never play in the NHL, as he's not even a good fighter. So far he's dressed in 2 games in Hamilton, and did nothing when he played. I could say the same thing for Blouin, Boulerice, the current Craig Berube, Shelley and a bunch of other enforcers.
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Post by montreal on Nov 28, 2002 16:38:15 GMT -5
I could say the same thing for Blouin, Boulerice, the current Craig Berube, Shelley and a bunch of other enforcers. And they are in the NHL while O'Dette can't crack an AHL lineup.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 28, 2002 17:26:51 GMT -5
And they are in the NHL while O'Dette can't crack an AHL lineup. O'Dette was a d-man 2-3 years ago, no? I mean he has to switch positions, that takes time...
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Post by Ranger Ranchod on Nov 28, 2002 17:55:28 GMT -5
Please don't tell me someone is complaining about the loss of a 7th round pick... please.
The whole Berezin thing.... I think that's part of what makes a good GM. He got a guy he thought could help score some goals, he didn't, so he got rid of him. Alot of GMs would keep playing the guy over and over until he (hopefully) got something going so he wouldn't look so bad, but Savard saw he made a mistake, swallowed his pride and corrected it. I'd take a ballsy GM without an ego anyday for my team.
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Post by Viper on Nov 28, 2002 18:00:36 GMT -5
Please don't tell me someone is complaining about the loss of a 7th round pick... please. The whole Berezin thing.... I think that's part of what makes a good GM. He got a guy he thought could help score some goals, he didn't, so he got rid of him. Alot of GMs would keep playing the guy over and over until he (hopefully) got something going so he wouldn't look so bad, but Savard saw he made a mistake, swallowed his pride and corrected it. I'd take a ballsy GM without an ego anyday for my team. so then how do you explain the balls he has for keeping quintal around and the insane idea that traverse another of his buddies gets to stay in the lineup
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