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Post by Chopper on Nov 26, 2002 15:22:41 GMT -5
I personally think he's doing alright, his drafting has been good. Although it's a little early to tell. I don't think he's done anything completely foolish in terms of trades. He's been it seems a little eager to give out the money, but hopefully that's just to tide us over until the youth steps up. I'm voting to be patient. If Mckay had 10 goals and was playing on the PP in front of the net, with veteran leadership, no one would be mentionning it. It was a risk and so far it hasn't looked all that great, but neither did Gilmour last year until the play-offs. He was able to have everyone signed by the regular season, which to me is always a good thing. I believe patience is in order.
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Post by Viper on Nov 26, 2002 16:09:40 GMT -5
It's too early to start saying fire the guy that's for sure 2 season's is not enough time to get a team together from ruins.
His drafting is great something we knew about when he showed up his eye for talent is good he know's who can and can't play this game
His ability to create a team is what i question and our roster speaks volumes as to the team concept. We have no size up the middle we only have one natural left wing in sylvain Blouin. (WTF) we have a crapload of right winger's and center's who are either playing center or converted to wing the majority of which are soft and other's are very one dimensional forwards. Now i'll agree that alot of this is due to the fact that we had no depth and one could argue we are like this because Savard was just doing anything to acquire NHL bodies. (i find it odd that if he's able to acquire bodies with either money or assets why one would go about just picking up someone without finding out if he fits into the teams needs in the first place but anyway that's another story.)
I'll give him the rest of the season to see if he can start cleaning up the mess that exist's in our lineup if nothing happens to address some of these problem's before this season is over i will seriously wonder wether the plan was to just acquire a bunch of bodies and then move some of those better talent's to acquire appropriate player's of similar talent that will fit into the roster appropriately. Or if there is no real sense of what the team needs and trades are being made just for the sake of making them. If the latter is true we will be no better because of the drafting if we don't have the appropriate parts to run the engine.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Nov 26, 2002 16:38:47 GMT -5
IMO, he hasn't done anything that warrants a firing squad... But as well, I am not giving him a blank check. At the end of the year we'll have a better idea of where he's going. If no kid get inserted in the lineup and the team misses the playoffs with that payroll, then it'll be time to wonder if his direction is really good for the team.
As well, I will have to wait and see one of his picks playing for the HABS before crowning Andre the king of drafting.
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Post by BadCompany on Nov 26, 2002 17:56:28 GMT -5
I would still give him that B- I gave him aways back (or B, or B+, or whatever it was). Still think he is slightly above average as far as GMs go, around 8-12, in my opinion.
No need to fire him.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Nov 26, 2002 18:32:33 GMT -5
Savard hasn't improved the team but he hasn't hurt the team either. His biggest mistakes are:
1. Therrien, keeping him and extending his contract 2. The old vet revolving door Gilmour, Czerk, Audette, Dack....we keep getting older and smaller. The older guys keep getting slower.
They kept Houle for six years. By that yardstick we should give Savard 600 years to work things out. If things haven't changed by the end of the season we fire his ass. Gilette should also demand to be consulted on major decisions of the outgoing GM.
Start the search for the AS replacement. Start it early enough to give the new GM a chance to hire a coach.
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Post by Habsolutely on Nov 26, 2002 18:48:55 GMT -5
Start the search for the AS replacement. Start it early enough to give the new GM a chance to hire a coach. People can still dream on.. Savard will be the Habs GM for a very long time.. so start to get used to him more..
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 26, 2002 18:51:55 GMT -5
I go with what Doc said.
He hasn't done anything that says fire me so early but he shouldn't be viewed as a god.
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Post by HFTO on Nov 26, 2002 19:12:40 GMT -5
There are always going to be detractors but the fact still remains AS took a non playoff team and made them competitive faster than expected. I think he as done a good job but is feeling the pressure of the excellerated success of the team. His last few moves may have been predicated on this success and IMO I feel he feels the pressure not to miss the playoffs.What Moves AS makes next will give us a better indication of how good he really is.I think building up the organization through the draft is still a priority but AS is going to have to let some of these kids play sooner or later. To really evaluate a GM IMO he needs at least 4-5 years so lets be patient. HFTO
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Post by JohnnyVerdun on Nov 26, 2002 21:26:06 GMT -5
Savard could look outstanding if, in the next 8 to 12 weeks:
1. Souray comes back strong;
2. Dykhuis, Petrov and Audette are dealt for a 7th and a couple of mid-round picks;
3. Theodore starts to play well consistently and Hackett is moved for a 4th or better;
4. Hainsey, Hossa, Garon and Ward are called up; and
5. The following lineup starts to play with some cohesion:
Bulis/Koivu/Zednick Kilger/Perreault/Czerk Hossa/Juneau/Dackell Mckay/Gilmour/Ward
Blouin, Lindsay
Souray/Brisebois Markov/Rivet Hainsey/Quintal
Traverse
Theodore/Garon
We add 4 picks for 2003, shed almost 9 million in salary, we get leaner, younger, hungrier and more unified.....Then I'd say, based on what's happening down in Hamilton and in Montreal, Savard deserves an A-. As it is, I'm in the solid B range.
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Post by Viper on Nov 26, 2002 21:52:35 GMT -5
That's the question at hand now isn't it JV and the part that matter's is the IF. There are those of us here that believe things will change and those of us who are waiting before counting chicken's.
When eggs start hatching then i for one will stop doubting but until they do there's no way i will credit the man for what MAY happen because there's no proof he's gonna do it.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 26, 2002 22:04:22 GMT -5
Too many IF's but if it happens...good job AS is what I say.
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Post by JohnnyVerdun on Nov 26, 2002 22:05:39 GMT -5
Viper:
I'm not suggesting that anyone give Savard credit for what may happen, and I'm certainly not doing that myself. My focus has mainly been on the farm system, and based on the way things are developing down there he deserves some credit (as does Houle, who gets credit for Hainsey, Balej, Hossa and Markov). The situation here in Montreal is not great, but it's hardly a disaster. It could develop into one, for sure, but I don't expect that to happen. Something will give on the Hackett front, as well as where Czerk, Petrov, and Audette are concerned. As well, I think you can't underestimate the effect of not having Souray on D. If he comes back strong he'll help an awful lot.
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Post by Viper on Nov 26, 2002 22:25:41 GMT -5
JV :
i absolutely agree regarding the farm and such that is fine but i find it extremely puzzling that such a mess has been created up here. It's one thing to add depth and such but a totally different thing when in doing so he seemingly paid no attention to the actual requirement's of the teams needs. It's obvious we could acquire depth because we have done so but in doing so it should have been done with the team concept in mind. This is what concern's me. Asset management has been very poor when looking at the big picture. Sure cerkawski is better than asham and the pick but cerkawski is not what the team needed. I am seriously doubting AS's ability at forming the team in regard to need's. If it doesn't change we can draft a ton of great player's but if the Talent is not utilized and evaluated with the Team in mind it's fruitless. As i've said a couple of times already we have plugs and wires but without the distributer caps the car doesn't run.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Nov 26, 2002 22:34:03 GMT -5
Savard could look outstanding if, in the next 8 to 12 weeks: 1. Souray comes back strong; 2. Dykhuis, Petrov and Audette are dealt for a 7th and a couple of mid-round picks; 3. Theodore starts to play well consistently and Hackett is moved for a 4th or better; 4. Hainsey, Hossa, Garon and Ward are called up; and 5. The following lineup starts to play with some cohesion: Bulis/Koivu/Zednick Kilger/Perreault/Czerk Hossa/Juneau/Dackell Mckay/Gilmour/Ward Blouin, Lindsay Souray/Brisebois Markov/Rivet Hainsey/Quintal Traverse Theodore/Garon We add 4 picks for 2003, shed almost 9 million in salary, we get leaner, younger, hungrier and more unified.....Then I'd say, based on what's happening down in Hamilton and in Montreal, Savard deserves an A-. As it is, I'm in the solid B range. Hackett is moved for a fourth or better?? Hell, even Houle could get better than a fourth for a genuine #1 starting goaltender. Dykhuis, Petrov, and Audette dealt for picks or pucks?? I'd even take pucks. While we're wishing how about going out on a limb and wishing that Chouinard has a great year and moves up to the big team (Hamilton)!
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 26, 2002 22:36:05 GMT -5
LA...no teams need goalies right now...Hackett has little value because of UFA and injuries in the past as well
We should wait before dealing him
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Post by GARB08 on Nov 26, 2002 22:40:51 GMT -5
We should sign Hacket to an extension like one year and tell him its so it will be easier for him to be traded. Maybe he will have a higher value then.
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Post by UberCranky on Nov 27, 2002 0:04:33 GMT -5
The days of the “Free Passes” and “Get Out of Jail Free” are gone. As far as I am concerned, he has done NOTHING special in the last year or so. In fact, I would give him a B- and very close to a C if he does not fix problems of his own making.
If you look at his first year, he was a solid A with many good little moves BUT for the last year or so he has given out money and draft picks like candy. He has created a logjam of old sheep and worst of all, he has kept a 3 legged Chihuahua to coral his sheep. These “moves” would easily get him a solid C.
My biggest complaint? Therrein. You can not soar like an eagle if you got a Chihuahua tied to your leg. Any and all reasons for keeping him around is piss poor management in my books. Bottom line, real manager are proactive. Real managers are not agraid of making moves. Real managers always select the best man for the job, not the most popular one, or the most convinient.
Fire? No. But wait until Christmas. I am half expecting that this team to be 3 games under .500.
(REVISED)
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Post by seventeen on Nov 27, 2002 0:27:46 GMT -5
I didn't answer the poll because I don't agree with any of the 3 choices. JV's opinion is pretty fair to me, and even that has to be clarified. I am not going to write him a blank check (GG does that). As JV said, the team could look much different IF certain things happen. Lets hope they do, but to me, the single biggest challenge he has is MT. If he's going to tie his cart to that horse, I want off. The question is, how long is it going to be before AS sees him for the sway backed nag that he is? I'd like to think by Christmas, but no longer than the end of the season (April). If MT gets another contract extension, I'm moving over to the Canucks board. Hey, how bout them Nucks, huh? ;D
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Post by JohnnyVerdun on Nov 27, 2002 0:31:26 GMT -5
JV : i absolutely agree regarding the farm and such that is fine but i find it extremely puzzling that such a mess has been created up here. It's one thing to add depth and such but a totally different thing when in doing so he seemingly paid no attention to the actual requirement's of the teams needs. It's obvious we could acquire depth because we have done so but in doing so it should have been done with the team concept in mind. This is what concern's me. Asset management has been very poor when looking at the big picture. Sure cerkawski is better than asham and the pick but cerkawski is not what the team needed. I am seriously doubting AS's ability at forming the team in regard to need's. If it doesn't change we can draft a ton of great player's but if the Talent is not utilized and evaluated with the Team in mind it's fruitless. As i've said a couple of times already we have plugs and wires but without the distributer caps the car doesn't run. Well, I don't have a problem with Czerkawski, but I think Savard's mistake was in underestimating the difficulty involved in moving Donald Audette. In this connection, I'm almost inclined to accept the reports of Audette's being offered to all 29 GMs with one fax transmission. As for the team's "needs", Randy Mckay was signed to address the toughness issue, but it really hasn't seemed to pay big dividends. I think the reason Mckay's not had an impact and the answer to the $64,000 question are the same: to compete with the best teams in the league the size you have up front has to have some speed and skill to go with it, otherwise it's next to useless. I'm not talking about line composition but about individuals. You need at least two or three players with size and skill. Guys like Simon and Thornton, not to mention the likes of Guerin and Bertuzzi, are hot commodities for this reason. These types of players are not readily available, and we have few guys who we want to move that could fetch them. Accordingly, you have two choices: go with more skill and less size, or more size and less skill. In either case, you're going to be lacking in one important respect. Savard has shown a preference for guys with "soft hands" and the result is we have a number of forwards with (on paper at least) the midas touch around the net but without the toughness to compete for the puck down low or on the boards. Would we be doing better with a bigger team composed of guys with hands more like Kilger's? I have my doubts. And just so I'm clear, it's not enough just to throw a big guy on each of the top two lines. That does not really solve the problem, as we've seen from watching Mckay trailing Zednick and Koivu into the offensive zone by twenty or thirty feet. So, to answer your question, I think Savard understands what the team needs but he's not prepared to move the kinds of players and picks necessary to get them, and neither have those among them who are unrestricted free agents shown a willingness to move to Montreal. Could he have gotten a player like Bertuzzi or Daze instead of Audette? The answer, at least in theory, is "yes, absolutely". But he'd have to have been ready to part with a package that included Hainsey and someone like Zednick, plus a pick. Would he have preferred to get Martin Lapointe over someone like Mackay? Absolutely. But Lapointe wouldn't even accept a disgusting amount of money to book a flight to his home town. It's these kinds of circumstances and scenarios that account for the presence of players like Quintal, Perreault, Mckay, Audette and Czerkawski. Not one of these guys would have a role of any great significance in Dallas, Philly or Boston. We all know that. They all know that. Savard knows that. But here they're front line players. And unless Savard was prepared to go with the radical rebuild -- in which you move Rucinsky, Savage, Hackett and others for picks or young underachievers or suspect prospects -- this was the only reasonable option. Had we gone the complete rebuild route (which I could've lived with, because I'm patient and I haven't dropped 12 grand on season tickets) we'd almost certainly not have made the playoffs last year and nobody in Montreal would be surprised that we're at .500 now. In fact, we probably wouldn't be near .500 now, judging by the quality of the competition. Do I like the way the team looks now? Of course not. But the kinds of players we really need are not available to us at a price we can stomach. That won't change for at least a year or two, when we have enough of the quality youth and depth that we can bite the bullet and move a couple of young prospects for a stud. Now, they're all we've got, and one guy is not going to take us to the holy land anyway, so why not wait? That's what we have to do; wait.
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Post by montreal on Nov 27, 2002 1:41:09 GMT -5
The days of the “Free Passes” and “Get Out of Jail Free” are gone. As far as I am concerned, he has done NOTHING special in the last year r so. In fact, I would give him a B- and very close to a C if he does not fix problems of his own making. If you look at his first year, he was a solid A with many good little moves BUT for the last year or so he has given out money and draft picks like candy. He has created a logjam of old sheep and worst of all, he has kept a 3 legged Chihuahua to coral his sheep. These “moves” would easily get him a solid C. Fire? No. But wait until Christmas. I am half expecting that this team to be 3 games under .500. Well I agree Savard has handed over a lot of money, but look around the league. Salaries are up, so when you get those UFA's, You gota pay to play. When a player like Holik gets 9M somethings wrong, but don't expect other players to see this and not try and milk the cow for all they can. But Savard giving out draft picks isn't a very good point at all. It's not fair, cause it sounds like he's been trading good high picks when that isn't the case at all what so ever. Since Savard has been GM he's traded an 8th '01 for Dacks. Great move. A 3rd '02 (his highest pick traded, in a weak draft) for Berezin, but that was turned into a 4th '04. A 5th '02 to move up to get Lambert. A 8th '02 to move up 1 spot to get Higgins. A 7th '03 to get Blouin. So that's a 3rd '02, a 5th, a 7th, and 2 8th's, over a 3 year span of picks. Thats 5 picks, and 3 were in a weaker draft. On the other hand, he added, a 1st '01 for a 2nd '01, a 5th '03 (Wild), and a 4th '04 (Hawks).
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Nov 27, 2002 9:43:31 GMT -5
I'm certainly a supporter of Savard and would give him a B rating. I think the problem is that in the playoffs last year Koivu came back as a force, Zednick was fabulous until injury and Audette and Gilmour played like 20 year olds. Its unfair to expect all of this to continue this year and fans expected Montreal to be right there with Philly and the Devils as a force in the east. I would expect Hackett will be here until the trade deadline and then moved to St. Louis or Philly or NY for a better price then he can get now. A RW will be moved sooner then later to solve that problem. And by the end of next season most of the excess fat will be trimmed from the roster and the budget, some younger players with 1-2 years of AHL experience will be in the line up and the team will be back on the road to credibility.
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Post by Habsolutely on Nov 27, 2002 11:14:35 GMT -5
Savard could look outstanding if, in the next 8 to 12 weeks: 1. Souray comes back strong; 2. Dykhuis, Petrov and Audette are dealt for a 7th and a couple of mid-round picks; 3. Theodore starts to play well consistently and Hackett is moved for a 4th or better; 4. Hainsey, Hossa, Garon and Ward are called up; and 5. The following lineup starts to play with some cohesion: Bulis/Koivu/Zednick Kilger/Perreault/Czerk Hossa/Juneau/Dackell Mckay/Gilmour/Ward Blouin, Lindsay Souray/Brisebois Markov/Rivet Hainsey/Quintal Traverse Theodore/Garon We add 4 picks for 2003, shed almost 9 million in salary, we get leaner, younger, hungrier and more unified.....Then I'd say, based on what's happening down in Hamilton and in Montreal, Savard deserves an A-. As it is, I'm in the solid B range. He could look like God again.. 1) Agreed 2) He won't do that.. he needs depth and NHL players. He may trade a few of them.. but will get better than a 7th round pick. Savard knows how to deal.. ask all the GMs who tried to go toe-to-toe with him. 3) Agreed for Theodore ; I'm sure he'll get better for Hackett. 4) It all depends on how ready they are. I won't play Hainsey if he still doesn't play with confidence. Look at Markov, his time in Quebec last year was probably the best thing that could happen to his hockey career.. look at him now, we talk about him as the next Lidstrom. At least, you are very thankfull and recognize the effort made by Savard.. even though I can see you start doubting about him as well.. Personnally, I wouldn't want anyone else running our team other than him.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 27, 2002 12:05:12 GMT -5
Look at Markov, his time in Quebec last year was probably the best thing that could happen to his hockey career.. look at him now, we talk about him as the next Lidstrom. The best thing that could happen to Markov was being put in the lineup down the stretch and not being replaced after a single mistake. He started shinning in the playoffs because of it and we are seeing him become a star now. The stint in QC may have helped, but I doubt we would be signing his praises if down the stretch last year, he was scratched half the time for Bouillon or Traverse. Youngsters, in order to develop their own confidence, need their COACH to show confidence in them
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Post by Habsolutely on Nov 27, 2002 13:58:12 GMT -5
The best thing that could happen to Markov was being put in the lineup down the stretch and not being replaced after a single mistake. He started shinning in the playoffs because of it and we are seeing him become a star now. The stint in QC may have helped, but I doubt we would be signing his praises if down the stretch last year, he was scratched half the time for Bouillon or Traverse. Youngsters, in order to develop their own confidence, need their COACH to show confidence in them If Markov wouldn't have been so dominant during his time in the AHL, there was not gonna by any "singing his praises down the stretch last year". This guy needed to rebuild his mental form in order to play at the level that he can.. and that's exactly what he did. He killed the AHL, so the next stop was the NHL and for good this time.. and he hit nothing but net.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 27, 2002 16:43:46 GMT -5
Perhaps.
But if the Habs would have left him in the pressbox down the stretch and gone with Bouillon instead, I guarantee you Markov would not be shinning right now.
Once the Habs left him alone and stopped scratching him, he started getting better and better at this level
(anyone noticed nobody has voted to fire AS now!)
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Post by Habsolutely on Nov 27, 2002 18:31:28 GMT -5
Perhaps. But if the Habs would have left him in the pressbox down the stretch and gone with Bouillon instead, I guarantee you Markov would not be shinning right now. Once the Habs left him alone and stopped scratching him, he started getting better and better at this level (anyone noticed nobody has voted to fire AS now!) I was going nuts when they've scratched him a few times.. but at the end, when they've decided to let him play in Quebec.. I thought.. hey why not, he may be dominant there.. and damn right he was, he killed it. But it's also all about confidence... now Markov is on his way to superstar status. Who said we don't let the kid play ?
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 27, 2002 19:32:07 GMT -5
they didn't let him play most of December 2001. Traverse, Robidas on the left side and Bouillon were playing instead of him. It's not like Markov was playing bad hockey and certainly was playing better than the 3 I mentionned.
They didn't let the kid play in that month and it some other games throughout the year when he did nothing wrong to deserve getting scratched.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 27, 2002 21:02:12 GMT -5
Can the jerk! Oh, Savard, right He's done a fine job thus far and I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product maybe sometime in the next two years. We're on track. Cheers.
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Post by zenseeker on Nov 28, 2002 2:45:48 GMT -5
I'm very suprised that so many of you said he was doing a great job. I believe the coaching staff is bottom tier. Their payroll is way too high for the performance they are getting. The trades AS has made have been of the average grade, if you take them all into account. He was a good man to bring the team to the respectable level, but I'm unsure is he has the capability to take this team to the next level.
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Post by Viper on Nov 28, 2002 12:50:46 GMT -5
I'm very suprised that so many of you said he was doing a great job. I believe the coaching staff is bottom tier. Their payroll is way too high for the performance they are getting. The trades AS has made have been of the average grade, if you take them all into account. He was a good man to bring the team to the respectable level, but I'm unsure is he has the capability to take this team to the next level. your not alone in your thoughts Zenseeker nothing to write home about has happened so far and if it doesn't start to soon change is needed.
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