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Post by zenseeker on Nov 25, 2002 15:46:13 GMT -5
In this day and age it is unbelievable that the habs have such a reactive management style. All of us here see all problems that surround this team from coaching to various aspects of the players the habs have. Why aern't they being pro-active and trying to solve these problems now rather than later when it will be too late. I believe the problem starts with AS because he is the GM and is responsible for the final decisions on acquistions and the overall startegy of the franchise. When he does make a move, after waiting too long, it's a quick fix deemed to solve the problem in the short-term with no vision of how it will fit into the future. That is why we have a surplus of these one dimensional players who are old and have little marketable value. I have liked some of his acquistions (Zednic and bulis), but when you look at this team it's expensive and not all that good. How many games do we have to be outshot before they do something to rectify the situation. Realistically with the team we presently have, even adding Souray to the mix, how far do you think they can go. His reactive style is going to be downfall of this once proud organization
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Post by Viper on Nov 25, 2002 16:13:26 GMT -5
Well i don't know how to answer the first part of the thread i'd like to but i seem to be drawing a blank As for the second part I couldn't agree more. Here's my problem On one hand JV and Habsolutely have a vision for tomorow that see's the skill at the draft table reviving the franchise which is a great point from both sides and i do agree that over the long haul the team will be better because of a solid foundation of draft picks. However what's going on right now contradicts my belief that that could be true. The acquisition of cerkawski doesn't help this team no matter which way you shake it. He brings alot more of what we already had in Petrov and Audette which is streaky scoring and poor defensive play. On top of that we haven't got the playmaking centrea available to support them. WE dealt asham a big physical style winger along with a PICK. We acquired Bluoin for another PICK. And if a team is trying to build through the draft trading away PICKS to build depth really concern's me alot. Not to mention the seemingly blind effort's at making imrpovement's by acquiring a whole bench of similar talent's. A total is equal to the sum of all of it's parts in this sense because he's acquired a bunch of what seems like valuable parts the unfortunate thing is alot of the parts are the same and when piecing together the puzzle of a winning TEAM having a bunch of spare parts can work as long as all of those spare parts fit together. WE have a few sparkplugs and a couple of wire's but no distributer caps to fire the engine thus we continue to stall when we try to get going. THere's no reason we can't build a solid team now while drafting for tomorow. The tomorow is being addressed the now is not. Continuing down this road is fruitless because if management is oblivious to the needs of the team NOW no matter what is coming down the pipe in the future the same problem's will exist because the team will not have all the elements of a champion just a whole bunch of elements that when pieced together don't fire on all of it's cylinders
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 25, 2002 16:59:36 GMT -5
The acquisition of cerkawski doesn't help this team no matter which way you shake it. He brings alot more of what we already had in Petrov and Audette which is streaky scoring and poor defensive play. On top of that we haven't got the playmaking centrea available to support them. WE dealt asham a big physical style winger along with a PICK. Chow is bigger than Asham I agree. This is my beef with AS. A team usually has 3 different kind of players up front: The Skilled players(which we have lots of...in fact too much) The Defensive minded guys(we have enough of them) The Bangers/goons(we don't have enough who are effective) If you look at AS's deals...at first you saw a vision...the Stock+6th for Odjick deal,the Zholtok for Kilger deal, the deal with the Caps, ( even the Traverse for Weinrich one had some sort of direction in it...get a d-man in return for an aging one ), getting Juneau and Dackell, getting Perreault to center our 2nd line, signing Gilmour to replace Koivu,etc. Those moves made sense and you could see why we made those deals. But starting with the Q-ball deal(which was absolutely not neccessary...we already had 3 right D in Briser/Rivet/Robidas), then the deal with Dallas, then the deal with Phoenix, then picking up Czerkawski this summer, giving all that money to McKay then Blouin this year...you have to wonder WTF he was thinking. I mean last year, we had the same problem we had now...too soft, too small, not tough enough up front. The Dallas deal did nothing to address it and it did nothing to hurt it either. It was getting rid of 2 UFA's for a guy with a huge contract and another UFA. But the Phoenix deal? why not just deal Savage somewhere else and NOT get Berezin, an even softer player in return!!! plus we gave up a 3rd rounder as I remember in that deal(that deal also forced Ribs to move to RW which absolutely f___ed him up). Then the Chow deal which was a lateral move and all it has done is create a headache, then the McKay deal...look McKay for 1 million per year for 1 year with bonuses would have been fine, but 2 years for more than 2 million a season!! and it's not like teams were going after McKay like there was no tomorrow, then he deals a 7th round for a type of player you can sign for nothing or pick up on waivers. And I didn't even mention taking the risk of putting Garon on waivers just so we could keep Bill Lindsay around! Come on AS...you are better than this...
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Post by Viper on Nov 25, 2002 17:11:31 GMT -5
Chow is bigger than Asham not if you consider hoe the 2 play the game size doesn't make you big ;D
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 25, 2002 17:15:25 GMT -5
not if you consider hoe the 2 play the game size doesn't make you big ;D yeah but Asham was another RW
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Post by Viper on Nov 25, 2002 17:23:58 GMT -5
Marc he was just as useful to this team as the addition of chow is and that's my point.
He bring's attributes we need while Chow just brought more of what already existed that's the point man ;D the fact that he's not as big or another right wing is irrelevent.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 25, 2002 17:27:17 GMT -5
That could still be a great trade...
if Petrov or Audette leave and Chow is given a permanent spot in the lineup
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 25, 2002 18:34:51 GMT -5
if you go to other boards...you are starting to see some FIRE AS messages and people losing faith in him as well...HabsRus is not alone on this issue.
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Post by cousin nark on Nov 25, 2002 19:35:25 GMT -5
Does that mean Koivu and Petrov are big players??
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Post by TheHabsfan on Nov 25, 2002 20:49:28 GMT -5
While I tend to agree with you that MT doesn't know the meaning of "proactiveness", I am not convinced that AS is reactive. I believe that AS is active on the trade market, however, he has shown in the past as being conservative in his dealings. It is my belief that AS is looking for a specific player or players to fill obvious voids in his line-up but the return price asked by his counterparts is too high. As you mention in your post, we have definite weaknesses within the team. My question is: If we don't want these guys, who is gonna give you what you want for them? I am firm believer in the fact that you have to give something to receive something. We definitely won't be getting impact players for the likes of Dykhuis, Traverse and Q-Ball (the Brutal 3). Where I agree that AS is responsible for the overall strategy, I believe that the results we see on the ice rests squarely on MT's shoulders. It's the coach who decides how each player is used, and from what we can see, so far, MT isn't much of a "chess player". I still think, and nothing has indicated to me otherwise, that AS has a keen ability to recognize talent and we will see this quality come through in shining colours when Komo, Higgins and co make it to the Big club. Conclusion? Patience with AS......MT? Check mate!!! TheHabsfan
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Post by Viper on Nov 25, 2002 21:25:36 GMT -5
Does that mean Koivu and Petrov are big players?? No but if Cerkawski played with half the intensity that Koivu does he'd be head and shoulder's better than what he shows us. So what if a guy is big but doesn't use it he's knocked of the puck easier than koivu is for god sakes.
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Post by JohnnyVerdun on Nov 25, 2002 21:54:28 GMT -5
I still don't get what the complaints are about Czerkawski. The guy had something like 7 points in 5 games on the first line. He wasn't scoring a lot of goals but the line was producing and he was clearly involved, as his numbers attest. The real reason MT moved him out and Audette in was because he didn't feel he could sit Donald much longer, and he knew the only possible spot for him was on Saku's wing, not because Czerk's play sucked. Audette has seen twice the pp time that Czerk gets, as much or more time on the top line, and to me Audette is the greater of two evils on defence. Czerkawski is 3 years younger than Audette, he's bigger and a better skater, he's more versatile, he's cheaper and he has clicked as much or more on the first line than Audette has, so why are we seeing Audette rather than Czerkawski? No good god#mned reason as far as I can tell. We should just sell the midget to the circus and get on with it. A happy Czerkawski will be an asset. Audette is everything Czerkawski is and less....if you know what I mean.
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Post by Viper on Nov 25, 2002 22:04:30 GMT -5
I still don't get what the complaints are about Czerkawski. The guy had something like 7 points in 5 games on the first line. He wasn't scoring a lot of goals but the line was producing and he was clearly involved, as his numbers attest. The real reason MT moved him out and Audette in was because he didn't feel he could sit Donald much longer, and he knew the only possible spot for him was on Saku's wing, not because Czerk's play sucked. Audette has seen twice the pp time that Czerk gets, as much or more time on the top line, and to me Audette is the greater of two evils on defence. Czerkawski is 3 years younger than Audette, he's bigger and a better skater, he's more versatile, he's cheaper and he has clicked as much or more on the first line than Audette has, so why are we seeing Audette rather than Czerkawski? No good god#mned reason as far as I can tell. We should just sell the midget to the circus and get on with it. A happy Czerkawski will be an asset. Audette is everything Czerkawski is and less....if you know what I mean. I don't have a problem with Cerk specifically since i'm the one doing the talking about him on this thread that is negative my problem is i question his acquisition because of the problem's it has created in the lineup. Technically if Audette wasn't here at all it is a great move and he would work well with saku and Zed as he has shown. I hate the fact that the three amigo's are being shuffled in and out of the lineup becuase there's too much of the same from all of them. NO DEFENSE and INCONSISTENT SCORING.Not to mention that Audette who was 17 games into the season was getting all that PP time because the coach is either an idiot or just a yes man who has to play salary guys ahead of performing player's. If your hands are tied as a coach like this well i'll cut the guy some slack i guess but most of his other ......................... nah that's another dead horse.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 25, 2002 22:12:08 GMT -5
I still don't get what the complaints are about Czerkawski. The guy had something like 7 points in 5 games on the first line. He wasn't scoring a lot of goals but the line was producing and he was clearly involved, as his numbers attest. The real reason MT moved him out and Audette in was because he didn't feel he could sit Donald much longer, and he knew the only possible spot for him was on Saku's wing, not because Czerk's play sucked. Audette has seen twice the pp time that Czerk gets, as much or more time on the top line, and to me Audette is the greater of two evils on defence. Czerkawski is 3 years younger than Audette, he's bigger and a better skater, he's more versatile, he's cheaper and he has clicked as much or more on the first line than Audette has, so why are we seeing Audette rather than Czerkawski? No good god#mned reason as far as I can tell. We should just sell the midget to the circus and get on with it. A happy Czerkawski will be an asset. Audette is everything Czerkawski is and less....if you know what I mean. Haven't you heard...the guy is a PKer and not a PP guy according to MT
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Post by Doc Holliday on Nov 25, 2002 23:11:44 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with Cerk specifically since i'm the one doing the talking about him on this thread that is negative my problem is i question his acquisition because of the problem's it has created in the lineup. Technically if Audette wasn't here at all it is a great move and he would work well with saku and Zed as he has shown. I hate the fact that the three amigo's are being shuffled in and out of the lineup becuase there's too much of the same from all of them. NO DEFENSE and INCONSISTENT SCORING.Not to mention that Audette who was 17 games into the season was getting all that PP time because the coach is either an idiot or just a yes man who has to play salary guys ahead of performing player's. If your hands are tied as a coach like this well i'll cut the guy some slack i guess but most of his other ......................... nah that's another dead horse. Acquiring Chow was an odd move fer sure when you consider that the HABS were already set with their offensive lines. At the time he was acquired many fans including me were just waiting for the follow through trade to happen as it was obvious a roster spot had to be cleared. It did not happen and so with 20 games in the roster is still unstable. But I disagree with Savard being reactive. Savard has been a very active GM, roughly 3 dozen of players came and went via different means in about 2 seasons... That's a lot of players movement in a short while for a roster that still obviously needs some movement. Houle was a reactive GM, always waiting to be caught in a corner with no options before doing something, Savard keeps acquiring/moving players in a vaguish organized pattern.
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Post by 24andcounting on Nov 26, 2002 0:02:42 GMT -5
Audette has seen twice the pp time that Czerk gets, as much or more time on the top line, and to me Audette is the greater of two evils on defence. Czerkawski is 3 years younger than Audette, he's bigger and a better skater, he's more versatile, he's cheaper and he has clicked as much or more on the first line than Audette has, so why are we seeing Audette rather than Czerkawski? Not to mention the fact that Audette has many times been taken out of the play because of lazy, soccer diving like attitude. Plus he can't pass. It upsets me so much when Zed and Saku have the cycle going well down low and Audette comes in and messes it up. JV is right IMO, Audette has some sort of free pass from MT and I don't know what he did to earn it.
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Post by zenseeker on Nov 26, 2002 1:44:30 GMT -5
AS may have a good eye for draft picks but how many rookies do we have on the team? answer "0" AS has a large budget and what has he given us? A team that gets out shot night in night out, and pretty much doesn't win unless the goalie plays superb. This team is a disgrace considering the payroll they have to work with. And with the players we have now this team won't get better due to the high average age. Where is the mission? Where is the strategy? Where is the vision? Yeah the man is better than Houle, but every GM in the league was better than him so now instead of having the worst GM we have a bottom tier GM. I'm not saying MT and his fellow coaches don't have anything to do with it but Savard must be held accountable for in the end he is the captain of the ship. On top of this all I'm sick and tired of the language requirements that seem to exist within the organization. You should get the best people available period. People in Montreal will get over the fact there isn't a french quota if the team is producing on the ice. If this philosophy doesn't change the franchise will have to continue to operate with one arm behind its' back. Where is Tremblay and Vigneault coaching now? I'm just worried with how competitive the league has become if we can compete with these obsolete ways of running a franchise.
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Post by montreal on Nov 26, 2002 3:33:13 GMT -5
I still don't get what the complaints are about Czerkawski. The guy had something like 7 points in 5 games on the first line. He wasn't scoring a lot of goals but the line was producing and he was clearly involved, as his numbers attest. The real reason MT moved him out and Audette in was because he didn't feel he could sit Donald much longer, and he knew the only possible spot for him was on Saku's wing, not because Czerk's play sucked. Audette has seen twice the pp time that Czerk gets, as much or more time on the top line, and to me Audette is the greater of two evils on defence. Czerkawski is 3 years younger than Audette, he's bigger and a better skater, he's more versatile, he's cheaper and he has clicked as much or more on the first line than Audette has, so why are we seeing Audette rather than Czerkawski? No good god#mned reason as far as I can tell. We should just sell the midget to the circus and get on with it. A happy Czerkawski will be an asset. Audette is everything Czerkawski is and less....if you know what I mean. My complaints about Chow. He sucks. He's lazy, soft, and hasn't shown a lick a talent or hard work. An open net, and a soft backhand goal, are nothing to write home about. I can't stand his half assed efforts when he's on the ice. The only game I thought he played well was against his old team. (great hit on Kenny Johnsonn) He looks disinterested when he's out there, and just doesn't seem to be trying hard at all. That makes me sick to watch, and I hate seeing him on the ice everytime he plays. Do I blame Savard for getting him, no, its a gamble and we needed more scoring after last years 207 goals. But I love the fact that Therrien keeps benching him. HELLO Marius, HERE'S A FREAKIN CLUE, PLAY HARDER!!!!! Jerk. What the hell is that skate skate glide/coast anyway. Maybe he will turn it around, but I think I have a better chance to win the lotto.
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Post by BadCompany on Nov 26, 2002 7:08:16 GMT -5
Do I blame Savard for getting him, no, its a gamble and we needed more scoring after last years 207 goals. But I love the fact that Therrien keeps benching him. HELLO Marius, HERE'S A FREAKIN CLUE, PLAY HARDER!!!!! Jerk. What the hell is that skate skate glide/coast anyway. Maybe he will turn it around, but I think I have a better chance to win the lotto. Personally, I don't mind Czerkawski. I would take Czerkawski over Audette any day of the week, and twice on rainy days. Doesn't mean I particularily like Czerkawski, just that I can't stand Audette. But that's just me. But I think the problem people had with Czerkawski's acquisition, was that it didn't make much sense. If it had of existed in a vacuum, then yeah, Czerkawski for Asham is a good deal. But it didn't. We already had Petrov, who had 20+ goals last year, Audette, who we thought was going to get 20+ goals, Dackell, who was in the teens, as a defensive specialist, and with plans to sign Randy McKay. Playing Czerkawski meant, as we said then, and as we are seeing now, that one of Petrov or Audette was going to sit. In the end, we aren't ahead in the goals scored department - Czerk scores 25, but Petrov only scores 6? How much further are we ahead? As for the 207 goals, we had Koivu coming back, Audette coming back, and Gilmour, who was supposedly supposed to be okay following a training camp. That was supposed to be worth 10-20 extra goals right there. I know MT wanted to go with three offensive lines, but here on the board very people thought that was going to work, and indeed, it didn't. We called it the Hi, Ho, Silver approach here, and not because we are fans of men with white hats and masks. Acquiring Czerkawski, Montreal acquiring Czerkawski, made no sense. There was no room for him. Would you rather have Asham on the 4th line, or Czerkawski? Which makes more sense from a team perspective? Still, if it were me, Audette would still be on the bench, and Czerk would be on Koivu's wing.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 26, 2002 8:44:16 GMT -5
Funny, I can't stand Petrov, his stone hands, his little moves that amount to nothing and the fact he doesn't fit in on a cup contending team(he belongs on an offensive line to be effective and cup teams have better players on their 2nd line)
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Post by HFTO on Nov 26, 2002 18:21:50 GMT -5
I agree somewhat with Doc but I still think AS has to continue to be even more pro-active at this point. I 've been saying for alomg time the time is now to make another deal. Savard has already shaped the team to at least be competitive .Aside from getting a morey savvvy coach AS still has to move some of the players he has brought in. He has painted himself in a corner by acquiring players who should be offensive but play soft. There is nothing wrong with that if they are pieced together but they still need to find that fine balancewith players who can play with a little grit but at the same time can play. Obviously this is easier said than done but the continious shuffling of the lines and taking players who should be playing in and out of the lineup is not working.too many players are not being used properly and the effect is obvious. If AS believes in his coach then he has some more moves to make IMO. HFTO
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 26, 2002 19:00:10 GMT -5
I agree
It's time for AS to make a move. The more he waits, the more the dressing room is polluted, the more games the teams will lose because alot of players are unhappy.
AND PLEASE NOT ANOTHER SMURF WHO ONLY PLAYS RW
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Post by Viper on Nov 26, 2002 22:02:09 GMT -5
Personally, I don't mind Czerkawski. I would take Czerkawski over Audette any day of the week, and twice on rainy days. Doesn't mean I particularily like Czerkawski, just that I can't stand Audette. But that's just me. But I think the problem people had with Czerkawski's acquisition, was that it didn't make much sense. If it had of existed in a vacuum, then yeah, Czerkawski for Asham is a good deal. But it didn't. We already had Petrov, who had 20+ goals last year, Audette, who we thought was going to get 20+ goals, Dackell, who was in the teens, as a defensive specialist, and with plans to sign Randy McKay. Playing Czerkawski meant, as we said then, and as we are seeing now, that one of Petrov or Audette was going to sit. In the end, we aren't ahead in the goals scored department - Czerk scores 25, but Petrov only scores 6? How much further are we ahead? As for the 207 goals, we had Koivu coming back, Audette coming back, and Gilmour, who was supposedly supposed to be okay following a training camp. That was supposed to be worth 10-20 extra goals right there. I know MT wanted to go with three offensive lines, but here on the board very people thought that was going to work, and indeed, it didn't. We called it the Hi, Ho, Silver approach here, and not because we are fans of men with white hats and masks. Acquiring Czerkawski, Montreal acquiring Czerkawski, made no sense. There was no room for him. Would you rather have Asham on the 4th line, or Czerkawski? Which makes more sense from a team perspective? Still, if it were me, Audette would still be on the bench, and Czerk would be on Koivu's wing. exactly that is the point i've been making all along on a talent level it makes sense but from a team perspective it is senseless. And the team is what matter's not the individual.
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