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Post by Viper on Nov 17, 2002 0:03:58 GMT -5
This was something that most likely has been beaten to death here but since i've just been around for a summer and a first quarter of the season i'll mention something interesting. the 99/00 habs under AV lost around 550 man games to injury and saw regular usage of the jarventie's, choinard's and just about any warm body we could find in the AHL and finished with 83 points (18th overall ) just 2 points shy of a post season birth which was decided on the season's final night. While last year's version of the MT habs finished with 87 point's (18th overall again in the league) and squeeked into the playoff's with 4 games left in large part to a 7 game win streak where Theodore had a stellar hot streak. The difference this club versus the other one was swamped with depth by comparison and lost half as many games to injury. Av got fired MT still has a job Goalie pad's hmmm as i watched the game tonight i was thinking about the pad's of Theodore versus those of Marty Brodeur and i was considering their design's. Mainly because of the experience i've had in marketing and such and what it takes to draw a potential costomer to a specific viewpoint with merchandising. Here's what i'm getting at Brodeur's pads have a swoosh in them that flow's outside of his ankle toward's the post's versus Theodore's who have a ball like look in the middle when his leg's are closed. I bet money that as a shooter coming in trying to pick a spot it effect's their desicion to either go five hole or shoot for a low corner. Now as both are butterfly goalie's i would suspect Brodeur has the better design as i would want a shooter to be thinking about going low corner versus five hole. Yes i'm retarded any other question's ?
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Post by Rhiessan on Nov 17, 2002 1:42:41 GMT -5
It all depends on what type of goalie you are. I don't really consider Marty to be that much of a butterfly, he's a big guy that uses more of a stand up spread out stackpad only using the butterfly when screened or coming out to challenge(same way i've played net somewhat successfully for 24 yrs, Dryden was the man when i was growin up). Now Theo is your true butterfly encorporating it into just about every situation. I look at it this way the stand up stays high wanting you to shoot low usually giving you a little on the short side then reading the release and reacting east-west. The butterfly will sit lower give you fivehole and the top corners then take away the whole bottom of the net during or just before the release reacting north-south. So now you ask what the hell is he talking about(and is he drunk...a little) well Theo closes down preferring you go 5-hole and Marty spreads out preferring the corners hence the different designs. Just my opinion. ;D
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Nov 17, 2002 1:55:10 GMT -5
This was something that most likely has been beaten to death here but since i've just been around for a summer and a first quarter of the season i'll mention something interesting. the 99/00 habs under AV lost around 550 man games to injury and saw regular usage of the jarventie's, choinard's and just about any warm body we could find in the AHL and finished with 83 points (18th overall ) just 2 points shy of a post season birth which was decided on the season's final night. While last year's version of the MT habs finished with 87 point's (18th overall again in the league) and squeeked into the playoff's with 4 games left in large part to a 7 game win streak where Theodore had a stellar hot streak. The difference this club versus the other one was swamped with depth by comparison and lost half as many games to injury. Av got fired MT still has a job Goalie pad's hmmm as i watched the game tonight i was thinking about the pad's of Theodore versus those of Marty Brodeur and i was considering their design's. Mainly because of the experience i've had in marketing and such and what it takes to draw a potential costomer to a specific viewpoint with merchandising. Here's what i'm getting at Brodeur's pads have a swoosh in them that flow's outside of his ankle toward's the post's versus Theodore's who have a ball like look in the middle when his leg's are closed. I bet money that as a shooter coming in trying to pick a spot it effect's their desicion to either go five hole or shoot for a low corner. Now as both are butterfly goalie's i would suspect Brodeur has the better design as i would want a shooter to be thinking about going low corner versus five hole. Yes i'm retarded any other question's ? You're right on Viper! The team hasn't improved. The goaltending is much better and we had fewer injuries. We're older and smaller. We've picked up rejects from other teams in the hope they will find success here. Maybe if we brought Saddam Hussein to Montreal he would mend his ways and become a contributor with the change of scenery.
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Post by Viper on Nov 17, 2002 2:08:32 GMT -5
It all depends on what type of goalie you are. I don't really consider Marty to be that much of a butterfly, he's a big guy that uses more of a stand up spread out stackpad only using the butterfly when screened or coming out to challenge(same way i've played net somewhat successfully for 24 yrs, Dryden was the man when i was growin up). Now Theo is your true butterfly encorporating it into just about every situation. I look at it this way the stand up stays high wanting you to shoot low usually giving you a little on the short side then reading the release and reacting east-west. The butterfly will sit lower give you fivehole and the top corners then take away the whole bottom of the net during or just before the release reacting north-south. So now you ask what the hell is he talking about(and is he drunk...a little) well Theo closes down preferring you go 5-hole and Marty spreads out preferring the corners hence the different designs. Just my opinion. ;D lol as i was reading this i was thinking WTF he missed the point then you summed up your explanation of the different styles and the little gerbal in my head went into overdrive after getting the extra food. TKs Rhiessan I don't have the slightest idea why that thought was going through my head all night but it was one of those little things that makes you go hmmm. at least i can sleep now Cheer's Viper.
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Post by Viper on Nov 17, 2002 2:14:24 GMT -5
You're right on Viper! The team hasn't improved. The goaltending is much better and we had fewer injuries. We're older and smaller. We've picked up rejects from other teams in the hope they will find success here. Maybe if we brought Saddam Hussein to Montreal he would mend his ways and become a contributor with the change of scenery. would it not (in hindsight which is 20 20 of course) have been smarter to just continue developing in the kids that we're gaining Experience versus what we now have considering the difference is not exactly existent in the standing's and even now when you look at the result's on ice after all the changes to add apparent depth be all that far fetch to just re-initiate a youth movement. Considering the old age group has got us no further ahead what do we have to lose another point is the prospect's are much better now than they we're during AV's tenure so it could easily be argued we'd be even better off.
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Post by Rhiessan on Nov 17, 2002 2:40:34 GMT -5
No problem any time you want a long winded explanation for a trivial question I'm your guy
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Post by montreal on Nov 17, 2002 3:42:52 GMT -5
It all depends on what type of goalie you are. I don't really consider Marty to be that much of a butterfly, he's a big guy that uses more of a stand up spread out stackpad only using the butterfly when screened or coming out to challenge(same way i've played net somewhat successfully for 24 yrs, Dryden was the man when i was growin up). Now Theo is your true butterfly encorporating it into just about every situation. I look at it this way the stand up stays high wanting you to shoot low usually giving you a little on the short side then reading the release and reacting east-west. The butterfly will sit lower give you fivehole and the top corners then take away the whole bottom of the net during or just before the release reacting north-south. So now you ask what the hell is he talking about(and is he drunk...a little) well Theo closes down preferring you go 5-hole and Marty spreads out preferring the corners hence the different designs. Just my opinion. ;D I saw on HINC, John Davidson was saying that the league is going after goalies pads for being too big. Something about the inside padding. I have played every position but goalie (never will either), so its one area that I don't know that much about. But as a goalie I was wonder what your thoughts were on Theodore. I know he has gotten 2 wins now, but I still think he looks shaky and is fighting the puck and doesn't seem to have the confidence he had last year. Maybe its just me, but he was giving up a lot of rebounds, and in his earlier games, he was giving up a soft one, much like he has done since he's been here with exception to last year. And speaking of goalies, Garon is doing really well since he's been sent down. He's been the 1st and 2nd star and has only given up 1 goal in 6 peroids. I didn't hear the game tonight, but the game before he was real good, stopping all 36 shots for the SO. I am not very high on Garon, but I alway am interested in what others think of him. Plus they got a real problem in Hamilton, as Fichaud hasn't lost a game yet, and is also playing good hockey, and theres Ty Conklin who is in the same situation as Garon. 3 good goalies, I would think somebody gota get traded, no?
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Post by montreal on Nov 17, 2002 3:50:41 GMT -5
This was something that most likely has been beaten to death here but since i've just been around for a summer and a first quarter of the season i'll mention something interesting. the 99/00 habs under AV lost around 550 man games to injury and saw regular usage of the jarventie's, choinard's and just about any warm body we could find in the AHL and finished with 83 points (18th overall ) just 2 points shy of a post season birth which was decided on the season's final night. While last year's version of the MT habs finished with 87 point's (18th overall again in the league) and squeeked into the playoff's with 4 games left in large part to a 7 game win streak where Theodore had a stellar hot streak. The difference this club versus the other one was swamped with depth by comparison and lost half as many games to injury. Av got fired MT still has a job Goalie pad's hmmm as i watched the game tonight i was thinking about the pad's of Theodore versus those of Marty Brodeur and i was considering their design's. Mainly because of the experience i've had in marketing and such and what it takes to draw a potential costomer to a specific viewpoint with merchandising. Here's what i'm getting at Brodeur's pads have a swoosh in them that flow's outside of his ankle toward's the post's versus Theodore's who have a ball like look in the middle when his leg's are closed. I bet money that as a shooter coming in trying to pick a spot it effect's their desicion to either go five hole or shoot for a low corner. Now as both are butterfly goalie's i would suspect Brodeur has the better design as i would want a shooter to be thinking about going low corner versus five hole. Yes i'm retarded any other question's ? Well your missing some things there. First AV got great goaltending just like Therrien (although not as good of course) Hackett was the team MVP, and if not for a game against the Sabers we might have made the playoffs (Hasek was unreal in that game in the SO, then there was a great game against the wings, were we were down 4-1 and came back and tied it 5-5 with Craig Darby getting the GT, but we lost in OT). Also that team didn't have Jarventie, Chouinard didnt play too much. The team had Darby, Lind, Poulin, Bashkirov, Campbell, ect..... Not very skilled but better in their own end.
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Post by montreal on Nov 17, 2002 4:02:48 GMT -5
Oh and here's the difference between AV and MT. First, AV almost made the playoffs, MT did, its doesn't look very good when you fire the coach that got you into the 2nd round beating the 2nd best team in the NHL. 2nd, AV started the season off with the team losing left and right, whereas MT's team is over .500 and were/are 2nd in their division. Not many coaches get fired when they are 2nd in their division, even though the games we did lose, we got shelled in. 3rd, AV had Houle as his boss, MT has Savard, that should explain everything right there.
I think AV did get the short end of the stick, but with Houle running things, its almost like he tried to screw up the team, kinda like the owner in the movie major league ;D. Anyway, AV did a good job with what he had, but came up short, then started the next season and couldn't get it going. So he got the axe. I think that if Therrien's team was playing like the Thrashers, he would get canned, but off the top of my head, I can't think of too many coaches that get fired when they are over .500.
Funny but both AV and MT were up for the Jack Adams. Although I felt that AV got jobbed (I know Quennville is a good coach, but he had a lot more to work with).
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Post by Rhiessan on Nov 17, 2002 5:45:54 GMT -5
I think Theo's overeacting, trying to make the puck hit im instead of letting the puck hit im. He's got some of the fastest feet i've ever seen but right now he's letting them take him a little too far and not letting his body catch up which for the most part won't get him in too much trouble, that comes when he has to stop suddenly. His feet stop but his body continues on for a second keeping his one foot planted too long not allowing for a proper butterfly. That shot tonight when the puck went right in his glove and then popped right out was a good example of a lock-up. Kinda like being in front on a change-up. He's been settling down a little more every game and i'm predicting that when Philly comes to town in 2 weeks he gets even with those b**tards ;D. Then we can get back to concentrating on banana boy! Oh and the only ex-goalie turned comentator that didn't take too many pucks in the head is Kelly Hrudy. John Davidson bugs the hell outa me and don't even get me started on that TOOL John Garrett .
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Post by Ged on Nov 17, 2002 10:15:08 GMT -5
I think AV did get the short end of the stick, but with Houle running things, its almost like he tried to screw up the team, kinda like the owner in the movie major league ;D. Anyway, AV did a good job with what he had, but came up short, then started the next season and couldn't get it going. So he got the axe. I think that if Therrien's team was playing like the Thrashers, he would get canned, but off the top of my head, I can't think of too many coaches that get fired when they are over .500. Robbie Ftorek replaced by the Bird.
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Post by Viper on Nov 17, 2002 10:37:00 GMT -5
The funny thing i see Montreal is while the 2 team's achieved relatively (4 points and the same position in the league. ) the same achievement's with the exception of the playoff spot and the second round (thank Theodore not MT for that ) MT had alot more to work with and hasn't done any more with the team when you look at the big picture. AV as mostly everyone around here feels i suspect got screwed. That's not the point though the point i mean to make is if AV wasn't worth keeping around after what he did with so little why is MT worth an exrension when he did the same with so much more.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 17, 2002 10:45:43 GMT -5
The difference between last year and 1999-00 is we had fewer man games lost(200 I think). Plus Theodore made up for lack of system...
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Post by montreal on Nov 17, 2002 17:49:00 GMT -5
I think Theo's overeacting, trying to make the puck hit im instead of letting the puck hit im. He's got some of the fastest feet i've ever seen but right now he's letting them take him a little too far and not letting his body catch up which for the most part won't get him in too much trouble, that comes when he has to stop suddenly. His feet stop but his body continues on for a second keeping his one foot planted too long not allowing for a proper butterfly. That shot tonight when the puck went right in his glove and then popped right out was a good example of a lock-up. Kinda like being in front on a change-up. He's been settling down a little more every game and i'm predicting that when Philly comes to town in 2 weeks he gets even with those b**tards ;D. Then we can get back to concentrating on banana boy! Oh and the only ex-goalie turned comentator that didn't take too many pucks in the head is Kelly Hrudy. John Davidson bugs the hell outa me and don't even get me started on that TOOL John Garrett . Thanks. I think Theo has looked better, it's just that he's not all the way there yet, and still seems shaky and not as confident. I don't mind Davidson, but I can't stand Garrett.
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Post by montreal on Nov 17, 2002 17:53:26 GMT -5
The funny thing i see Montreal is while the 2 team's achieved relatively (4 points and the same position in the league. ) the same achievement's with the exception of the playoff spot and the second round (thank Theodore not MT for that ) MT had alot more to work with and hasn't done any more with the team when you look at the big picture. AV as mostly everyone around here feels i suspect got screwed. That's not the point though the point i mean to make is if AV wasn't worth keeping around after what he did with so little why is MT worth an exrension when he did the same with so much more. It's easy, there's a big difference between almost making the playoffs, and getting 6 games into the 2nd round. Lets not kid ourselfes, this is a business, and you don't get anything for being 2 pts away from the playoffs, but 12 playoff games bring in a lot of money, so thats why AV is gone, and MT is here.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 17, 2002 18:00:36 GMT -5
Thanks. I think Theo has looked better, it's just that he's not all the way there yet, and still seems shaky and not as confident. I fully agree. And that shows you how good the guy is when at 85 or 90% of his game he does pretty well in his last 2-3 games. He still gives up big rebounds(like on the White goal) and he doesn't seem to be at his best yet, but if Savard gets a great offer for Hackett in the near future, he should do it because Theodore has shown enough for us to believe he will be fine once he gets in a groove again.
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Post by Viper on Nov 17, 2002 19:46:49 GMT -5
It's easy, there's a big difference between almost making the playoffs, and getting 6 games into the 2nd round. Lets not kid ourselfes, this is a business, and you don't get anything for being 2 pts away from the playoffs, but 12 playoff games bring in a lot of money, so thats why AV is gone, and MT is here. it's not a big difference when all factor's are considered you can't say for a second it is no matter what spin you put on it it's bullSaperlipopette. MT took a far more talented roster no where further thanh the injury riddled farm team. As long and hard as you try to say it aint so the only reason this team got anywhere had absolutely sweet jack squat to do with the retard behind the bench and everything to do with a superstar goaltender. My biggest piss off is that AS keeps letting this guy screw up regularly with little or no repercussion's.
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Post by montreal on Nov 17, 2002 19:59:55 GMT -5
it's not a big difference when all factor's are considered you can't say for a second it is no matter what spin you put on it it's bullSaperlipopette. MT took a far more talented roster no where further thanh the injury riddled farm team. As long and hard as you try to say it aint so the only reason this team got anywhere had absolutely sweet jack squat to do with the retard behind the bench and everything to do with a superstar goaltender. My biggest piss off is that AS keeps letting this guy screw up regularly with little or no repercussion's. What? give your head a shake. You got to be kidding me right? Not a big difference? How about 6 or 7M dollars, thats not a big difference? You can say whatever you want, but this is a business and money talks. So Therrien had a better line up, does that mean Gillette will give some of the money back, no he made some serious dough from 12 playoff games, and the Molson's made 0 dollars with AV. It's not opinion its fact. As for AV and MT years down the road, the stats will say MT took his team to the playoffs and AV didn't. It wont say anything about one team being better then the other. I agree AV took a beat up team that was full of AHLers, but results and money talk, almosts and could have's don't.
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Post by Viper on Nov 17, 2002 20:06:17 GMT -5
This is the whole damn problem Money and secondly i don't agree for one second Therrien is responsible for a single cent of it. Theodore saved his sorry behind from a bottom of the basement season nothing more nothing less the guy couldn't coach his way out of a wet paper pag. THAT'S the problem Therrien is useless and his goaltending keeps bailing his sorry but out. If not for that this team would be lucky to have 3 wins all year. You can't fire 25 player's so you fire the coach that hasn't done anything nut be a cheerleader back there and his rah rah siss boom is wearing thin that was more than obvious when Savard had to do his job the other day.
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Post by Viper on Nov 17, 2002 20:12:34 GMT -5
And furthermore why is it that with a significantly more talented roster he can't get anything working Don't even give me the well some guy's are just uncoachable crap because that's a bogus cop out to say the least. It's his job to get them to perform if they don't perform he should be demanding AS trade them immediately for anything at all He's the leader and the guide for the team and he has done nothing whatsoever to prove he has the capabilities to lead this team to anything more than mediocrity and even that is questionable since the goaltending is the only reason We are mediocre in the first damn place.
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Post by montreal on Nov 17, 2002 20:26:42 GMT -5
This is the whole damn problem Money and secondly i don't agree for one second Therrien is responsible for a single cent of it. Theodore saved his sorry behind from a bottom of the basement season nothing more nothing less the guy couldn't coach his way out of a wet paper pag. THAT'S the problem Therrien is useless and his goaltending keeps bailing his sorry but out. If not for that this team would be lucky to have 3 wins all year. You can't fire 25 player's so you fire the coach that hasn't done anything nut be a cheerleader back there and his rah rah siss boom is wearing thin that was more than obvious when Savard had to do his job the other day. Well, it doesn't matter what Therrien did or didn't do in the playoffs. Gillette has a few more Millions added to the books, and the team is over .500 I don't see the coach going anywhere. Unless there is real serious problems in the dressing room, but I never listen to that, I just watch the games and what the players do or don't do. I rarely focus on Therrien, as I am more interested in the players and what they are doing.
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Post by montreal on Nov 17, 2002 20:32:27 GMT -5
And furthermore why is it that with a significantly more talented roster he can't get anything working Don't even give me the well some guy's are just uncoachable crap because that's a bogus cop out to say the least. It's his job to get them to perform if they don't perform he should be demanding AS trade them immediately for anything at all He's the leader and the guide for the team and he has done nothing whatsoever to prove he has the capabilities to lead this team to anything more than mediocrity and even that is questionable since the goaltending is the only reason We are mediocre in the first damn place. Well I never said anything about them being uncoachable. But I think you are being a little harsh. Yea the team is an average team, but they are getting some things working. They have 20 pts and thats better then last year at this time. Theo should get better, and Souray should be back in 6 weeks or so and should replace Traverse or Dykhuis. Were not going to do anything great this year no matter who's behind the bench. We should make the playoffs, after that its anyones guess. We also have had a tough schedule, and it doesn't get much easier over the next month or so. We'll win some and we'll lose some, that much I know for sure. ;D
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Post by Viper on Nov 17, 2002 20:48:43 GMT -5
my head is gonna explode !!!!! the fact we are average is not telling the whole story the whole story is revolving around the severe lenght of time our player's have been making the error's you speak of and our goaltending has been bailing us out. MT has had a significantly large amount of time to get something done regarding the player's lack of effort and consistent screw up's and has accomplished nothing. Therrien has no respect from his player's that is obvious because there is only maybe 5 or 6 (excluding hack and theo) that give a half decent effort night after night. When the GM is forced to step in to do the job the coach should be doing which is getting a solid performance out of his club that's all the proof i need to know the guy needs to be terminated. This has occurred three times since the start of last year. How many times does AS have to step in before he realizes his coach is the problem and not his player's. Night's like last night prove this is a very solid team when all the cylinder's are firing. Therrien is like a chevette versus a Viper Venom 800. the only way he wins is if the Viper doesn't show up.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 17, 2002 21:09:56 GMT -5
Night's like last night prove this is a very solid team when all the cylinder's are firing. Therrien is like a chevette versus a Viper Venom 800. the only way he wins is if the Viper doesn't show up. I think it proves that and that they are much better in the 2 offensive lines/1 defensive line/1 grinding line mold. AS has to get rid of one of the RW's to make this happen on a permanent basis.We saw it during that Carolina/To weekend as well. But there is alot of talent on this team, no doubt about it. The little things and having a defence that has trouble getting the puck out kill this team.
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Post by montreal on Nov 18, 2002 1:22:12 GMT -5
my head is gonna explode !!!!! the fact we are average is not telling the whole story the whole story is revolving around the severe lenght of time our player's have been making the error's you speak of and our goaltending has been bailing us out. MT has had a significantly large amount of time to get something done regarding the player's lack of effort and consistent screw up's and has accomplished nothing. Therrien has no respect from his player's that is obvious because there is only maybe 5 or 6 (excluding hack and theo) that give a half decent effort night after night. When the GM is forced to step in to do the job the coach should be doing which is getting a solid performance out of his club that's all the proof i need to know the guy needs to be terminated. This has occurred three times since the start of last year. How many times does AS have to step in before he realizes his coach is the problem and not his player's. Night's like last night prove this is a very solid team when all the cylinder's are firing. Therrien is like a chevette versus a Viper Venom 800. the only way he wins is if the Viper doesn't show up. Well this is what I don't understand. Ok your pissed at the coach, I got it. But why are you pissed at him and not the other players that aren't doing their job. When Chow or Perreault just float around, do you get mad at Therrien or Chow/Perreault. I get mad at them, when I see them not working as hard as they should be. So if Therrien gets fired, do you think everything will magically change, and all the sudden the forwards will back check harder and finish their checks, and the defence wont make stupid mistakes, and Theo wont be shaky, etc... Fire Therrien, fire Savard, I don't see this team getting much better. They are an average team that will have good nights and bad night, and some really ugly nights. But they aren't doing that bad right now (just when we lose its lights out) I mean we have more wins then the Avs do. (not that that means anything) All I am saying is, firing Therrien wont do a whole lot of good, (depending on who you get of course) but this team doesn't become a cup contender with the best coach and Gm, let alone the fact that there isn't too many good coaches that are proven that could step in and do the job. The only name I can think of is Gainey, and I don't see him doing it. And anyone that says Ted Nolan or Ron Wilson, or Demers, will make me puke for sure.
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