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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 14, 2002 10:41:32 GMT -5
BC, Great and fine and all good points that I "mostly" agree on. LOL! a HabsRus first!BC and HA agree on SOMETHING! LOL! If him and Green handle Hainsey(when he comes back) the same way they did the first time, then yes it should be goodbye MT ouch, can't wait to see what BC says about that..LOL
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Post by montreal on Nov 14, 2002 18:26:44 GMT -5
The point was that he was too good for the AHL, and he had nothing to learn there. He had played with, and dominated men in what you yourself might be the 2nd or 3rd best league in the world, and while he wasn't the greatest thing to hit Montreal since Schwartz's smoked meat, he wasn't the worst thing either. He was replaced by Patrick Traverse, Stephane Robidas (on his wrong side) and Martie Jarventie. All of whom started the year in Montreal. Montreal wasn't willing to live through Markov's growing pains, so they demoted him. There are those who would disagree with your top-two line statement, but lets assume you are right. But if Montreal was indeed looking for more offense, why did Joe Juneau and Randy McKay play more than him? Donald Audette still doesn't have a point and Bulis is outscoring Doug Gilmour. We keep saying that if a player shows he can play, he will play, but that is not the case. Instead, we are trying to jump start veterans who have little to no future with the team, and its entirely possible that we are actually hurting the team in the short term. How much longer are we going to keep giving Audette prime minutes? Nobody understands Kilger's role, including, I would assume, Kilger himself. Because he has hands of stone (only once, during his draft year, has he ever scored more than 17) I would groom him for eventually taking over Joe Juneau's 3rd line center spot. We saw how focussed and effective he can be last year, shadowing Joe Thornton, why not groom him for that permanent position. Keep him as 4th line center, use him as your second penalty killer. Give him 12-14 minutes a game in exclusive defensive situations, and in two years he's ready to be your checking center. Like you said, he's big enough, and fast enough, and strong enough. He just needs a role. But he's being benched, and as you said, possibly on his way out. Another kid who wasn't used properly, in my opinion. Markov. Well, it didn't hurt Markov any to be sent down, he made mistakes, he went down to the farm, played good, came back up. Not a big deal, IMO. And Jarventie played 1 game. Bulis. You can't just do by points. Audette has more skill then Bulis on offence. I like Bulis, but I just don't think he works that hard, or I don't see him being known for his goal scoring. Kilger. I wouldn't put him at center, he's a better winger. Kilger has limited skills, and needs to play better when he's in the lineup. He's got to be more phyiscal to be effective.
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Post by montreal on Nov 14, 2002 18:32:25 GMT -5
I was disappointed in Hainsey's play as well, but I still think he could have been handled better. He was great during the pre-season, playing against top AHL players and borderline NHLers, and he was fine during that first win against the Rangers. Then, the team got hammered, 6-2, back to back, and Hainsey looked bad. But so did Quintal, and Dykhuis (especially Quintal, in my opinion). Of the 6 defensemen out there, I would argue that Hainsey was 5th, or maybe even 4th. While that's not saying much, given how poorly as a unit they were playing, its still something. He wasn't the worst, but he paid the price anyways. They then went public, and told reporters that he was "too offensive, took too many risks" - at what point they suggested he was too harded, and refusing to pay attention to his own zone. Surprise, surprise, after sitting three games, Hainsey comes back tentative, nervous, taking no offensive risks (his game) and banging the puck off the glass to get it out (Green's game). He doesn't play the powerplay, is afraid to take any offensive risks for fear of being benched, and concentrates on playing a total Rick Green game. All the while playing with our worst defensemen. Instead of trying to beat him into Rick Green submission, they should have done like they are doing with Robidas in Dallas and like they did with Robidas and Weinrich - play him 10-13 minutes a game, give him powerplay time, pair him with an experienced vet, ease him into the NHL so that when he plays he is confident, and secure. Instead, they threw him into the fire, and then complained that he got burnt. Again, this is the crux of the debate though. Other teams find room for their top prospects on their top two lines, but we can't? Last year, they had him as 4th line center, then left winger, then right winger, even playing the point on the powerplay. Like Kilger, they seem unsure where they see Ribeiro in the future. Maybe they don't see a future for him, I don't know. Therrien is not very good at line matching, or at rolling four lines, so having Ribeiro play 4th line center isn't going to get him a lot of ice time. I am not a big Garon fan, so I won't go too far into this. But it kind of fits the general trend - a top prospect who for whatever reason, just can't get a chance. I know the reasons, Hackett and Theodore, but there should be some sort of effort being made to get something for Garon before he walks as a UFA at the end of the year. Jose Theodore was the Hart and Vezina trophy winner, is young, and signed long term. At best, absolute best, Garon is going to be his backup. He will never, barring a complete Jim Cary like disaster (and if Savard thought that was possible, why sign Theodore long-term for big bucks?) be anything more than that. So moving him in the offseason, when they thought he had value, would have been a smart move. Hainsey. All I know is that he didn't play good, so he got sent down. Sounds right to me. Lets see what he does in the AHL. Ribeiro. Last year he was on the 2nd line, not the 4th. He was bad in his own end, then he stopped scoring, so he got sent down. Good move. He's not better then Koivu, Perreault, Juneau, so its the 4th to see what he can do. Garon. Its easy, he's not better then the guys we got right now, so we cut him lose.
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Post by montreal on Nov 14, 2002 18:44:47 GMT -5
Actually, I was referring to Chouinard's first year in the AHL. That year, coming out of the CHL (like Hossa) Chouinard played 48 games, had 12 goals, 21 assists, 33 points and was -7. Hossa, his first year in the AHL, played 50 games, had 17 goals, 15 assists, 32 points, and was -5. Virtually identical numbers. Chouinard then had decent numbers last year (his second in the AHL) but was considered to be a bust. Now don't get me wrong, I think Hossa is a much better prospect than Chouinard, and you may be right in that it is a question of effort, but that is also the knock on Hossa. If he puts up similar numbers to Chouinard's second season in the AHL (42 points in 65 games) will the organization give up on him too? That's where I disagree. In my opinion, Asham would play great for a shift or two, and then not play for the rest of the game. He never had the opportunity to do "not much of anything" because he wouldn't be playing. Its not like he would play great in the 1st period, suck in the 2nd, and get benched in the 3rd. He would play great for the first half of the 1st, and not play the rest of the game. Well, I think Robidas has played 15 of the Stars 18 games, so he ain't sitting out a whole lot. He too, is a young defenseman, and sometimes they are going to play badly. When they do, you sit them out for a game or two, then bring them back, pair them with someone who can cover for them, work them into the lineup, and hope they recover. Dallas has designs on winning the Cup this year, and not only are they playing Robidas almost every game, but they traded to get him to do so. We couldn't do the same thing with Hainsey? Actually, Montreal has the second highest number of draft picks over the last decade or so to make the NHL, its just that they don't tend to be high picks, and they tend to make it elsewhere. You are also right that Kilger, Bulis and Asham weren't going to be the goal scorers. But as far as I am concerned, your 3rd line (in particular) and your 4th line are just as important to your team as your first two. Having Kilger and Bulis set, trained and experienced as defensive specialists for the 3rd line, is just as important in my mind, as having Hossa, or Plekanec, or Balej scoring all those goals. Yes, we all wish that our prospects would come in here, and light it up, and force management to trade away our superstar veterans, but the truth is most players nowadays have to be broken in, and developed over time. We all know the list of players who went on to excell elsewhere, because Montreal gave up on them, no need to repeat it here. I am not saying guys like Kilger, or Asham, or Bulis are going to be superstars, but they could have been important pieces to the puzzle, both now and in the future. But we prefer to go with older veterans instead, even though there production is only marginally, if at all better. Then our young players stagnate, get shipped out, or end up having their careers fall apart. And again, we wonder where it all went wrong, and say they weren't any good to begin with. Chouinard. He didn't show anything in camp, so he was sent do Utah. Good. maybe he will get the message, I doubt it. As for Hossa's effort, where's he now as well. His efforts keep him in the AHL. Asham. Still disagree. I saw good games, I saw bad games where he would not do what he was here to do. So he sat, then got traded. Better to be traded then sit in the press box. Robidas. I was just going from what the Stars announcers said about him. There's no doubt he's got skill, and if not for the waiver draft he would still be here. But if the stars win a cup it wont be cause they got Robidas. Yes we have a lot of picks in the NHL, but a lot of them are not with us anymore. The biggest problem. 1st rounders. We have no top notched prospects, and our poor 1st round picks speaks volumes as to why this is the case. 3rd and 4th line players are important, but they wouldn't be in the playoffs, if not for the 1st and 2nd line scoring the goals. 1st and 2nd line players are harder to get, and the 3rd and 4th line are easier to acquire, IMO.
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Post by montreal on Nov 14, 2002 18:57:00 GMT -5
BC, Great and fine and all good points that I "mostly" agree on. My constant contention is that the coach is not smart enough and good enough to coach in the NHL. All the problems with the kids stem from his fear of losing, thus he always goes with the veterans. Therriens actions are approved by Savard thus he is also responsible for them. Period. So my question to you is: Do you agree that Therrien should have been replaced in the summer? Do you agree that given the Hab's play so far this year and the way the kids are handle, Therrien's career should be executed with a blunt, rusted axe by as early as tomorrow? Bottom line, is your butt firmly planted in the bandwagon with the blood red FIRE THERRIEN banner on top? And last but not least. If this continues for another year or so, will you get on the "FIRE SAVARD" bandwagon whose form is now starting to take shape? Well I don't think that highly of Therrien, but if they fire him who will replace him? Its easy to say fire the coach, but what if the next one does even worse them him? Fire him too. Then we can be just like Bobby Clarke and have more coaches then players. Be careful what you wish for it may come true. I don't blame Therrien. I blame, Theodore, not playing well. Gilmor, hasn't done much. Quintal, bad start, looks bad out there. Dykhuis, needs to sit a game or 10. Audette, will the REAL Donald Audette please stand up. Chow, soft and lazy, has picked it up some, but still not that good. Perreault, needs to be better in his own end. Petrov, yea he works hard, but has little to show for it. Kilger, when you get benched, its a good ideal to play harder when you come back, but he didn't get that message I guess. Hainsey, looked lost, confused, and shaky, not the start we had hoped for. So we can easily say fire Therrien, but to me its crappy players, that don't seem to care if they win or lose. Not a lot of effort, little heart, and no emotion outside a small handfull of players. Go head fire the coach, fire Savard too while your at it, but it wont change the fact that we got some average players that don't seem to care about winning, and I don't think any coach in the world could turn these guys around. With solid goaltending, we should stay over .500 and make the playoffs, but unless they work harder and show up every night all night, a 1st round exit is more likely.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Nov 14, 2002 19:16:58 GMT -5
Well I don't think that highly of Therrien, but if they fire him who will replace him? Its easy to say fire the coach, but what if the next one does even worse them him? Fire him too. Then we can be just like Bobby Clarke and have more coaches then players. Be careful what you wish for it may come true. I don't blame Therrien. I blame, Theodore, not playing well. Gilmor, hasn't done much. Quintal, bad start, looks bad out there. Dykhuis, needs to sit a game or 10. Audette, will the REAL Donald Audette please stand up. Chow, soft and lazy, has picked it up some, but still not that good. Perreault, needs to be better in his own end. Petrov, yea he works hard, but has little to show for it. Kilger, when you get benched, its a good ideal to play harder when you come back, but he didn't get that message I guess. Hainsey, looked lost, confused, and shaky, not the start we had hoped for. So we can easily say fire Therrien, but to me its crappy players, that don't seem to care if they win or lose. Not a lot of effort, little heart, and no emotion outside a small handfull of players. Go head fire the coach, fire Savard too while your at it, but it wont change the fact that we got some average players that don't seem to care about winning, and I don't think any coach in the world could turn these guys around. With solid goaltending, we should stay over .500 and make the playoffs, but unless they work harder and show up every night all night, a 1st round exit is more likely. I agree with you Montreal (except about the don't fire Therrien and fire Savard part). I guess I don't really agree with you! I agree that we don't fire anyone a la Booby Clarke style until we have a PERMANENT replacement (not interim, not a mere upgrade, but a genuine bonafied Coach and GM to build a winner.) Therrien isn't the one for the head coaching job, Point finale! Savard has brought in a lot of soft small players with declining production, our defense has a lot of average ordinary players who can't hit, carry the puck, or play consistant solid stay at home "D". We are deep in mediocrity. When Hackett or Theodore are less than perfect, we lose. Our drafting has improved and our depth is better, but we aren't a playoff or even .500 team unless our goaltender stops twenty five more shots than the other teams masked man. (night after night)
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Post by UberCranky on Nov 14, 2002 19:32:24 GMT -5
Well I don't think that highly of Therrien, but if they fire him who will replace him? Its easy to say fire the coach, but what if the next one does even worse them him? Fire him too. Then we can be just like Bobby Clarke and have more coaches then players. Be careful what you wish for it may come true. I don't blame Therrien. I blame, Theodore, not playing well. Gilmor, hasn't done much. Quintal, bad start, looks bad out there. Dykhuis, needs to sit a game or 10. Audette, will the REAL Donald Audette please stand up. Chow, soft and lazy, has picked it up some, but still not that good. Perreault, needs to be better in his own end. Petrov, yea he works hard, but has little to show for it. Kilger, when you get benched, its a good ideal to play harder when you come back, but he didn't get that message I guess. Hainsey, looked lost, confused, and shaky, not the start we had hoped for. So we can easily say fire Therrien, but to me its crappy players, that don't seem to care if they win or lose. Not a lot of effort, little heart, and no emotion outside a small handfull of players. Go head fire the coach, fire Savard too while your at it, but it wont change the fact that we got some average players that don't seem to care about winning, and I don't think any coach in the world could turn these guys around. With solid goaltending, we should stay over .500 and make the playoffs, but unless they work harder and show up every night all night, a 1st round exit is more likely. Can you help me with the followiing: 1. What system are the Habs playing? 2. What set plays have you noticed on the power play? 3. When have you heard a player praising Therrien for helping his career? 4. When was trhe last time the coach called a time out when his team was starting to fall apart? Please tell me something. Would you compare the Hab's current play to: 1. Skilled pond hockey with great goaltending. 2. Well coached team capable of changing their game and tactics to match the opponent. Where would you rate Therrien in the current NHL?
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Post by montreal on Nov 14, 2002 19:54:51 GMT -5
Can you help me with the followiing: 1. What system are the Habs playing? 2. What set plays have you noticed on the power play? 3. When have you heard a player praising Therrien for helping his career? 4. When was trhe last time the coach called a time out when his team was starting to fall apart? Please tell me something. Would you compare the Hab's current play to: 1. Skilled pond hockey with great goaltending. 2. Well coached team capable of changing their game and tactics to match the opponent. Where would you rate Therrien in the current NHL? 1. A system thats a tough one. They keep it simple in their zone. Wingers take the defencemen, center plays down low. (a lot of the problems right there, they get out muscled). When they have the lead, it's the 1-2-2 trap. The best part of their system is trying to take out the passing lanes. The problem is when a big forward crosses into the middle, cause they can't move him out of the way. The good thing about their system is that a lot of shots are from outside the box, which if the goalie can keep the rebounds down, it can work. One problem is the breakout. They don't have the ability to make the all important first pass out of the zone, and when they do, their small forwards can't battle along the boards to keep possession of the puck. We have to use our speed more, by makeing better passes, but I have seen little of this. 2. I can't say that I have seen any real set plays on the PP. But it has been doing well lately somewhere like 12th or 15th in the league. 3. Well Therrien hasn't been here that long, but no I haven't heard one player say anthing good or bad about Therrien. He is over .500 in his carrer, and he has never been fired as a coach on any level. 4. Dallas Stars game the other night, he called a time out in the first after we were getting shelled. It was a good move. Tippett called his in the 2nd. I can't remember the last time both teams used their timeout before the 3rd peroid. I wouldn't call them skilled pond hockey, as I haven't seen that much skill. They don't seem to show much emotion or heart. Blame Therrien if you want. I blame the players. I do think Therrien is better then several coaches in the league, as I like the way he has benched certain players, and how he has handled the goalies. Its a tough job and I feel sorry for him, cause he can't go out there and make the plays, that aren't being made due to lack of effort, yet he will be the blame and the ax, when someone like Audette will be praised by the French media, even though he hasn't showed up yet this season. I do blame Therrien/Savard for keep playing him. I would sit him against NJ and bring in Kilger.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 14, 2002 21:38:47 GMT -5
4. Dallas Stars game the other night, he called a time out in the first after we were getting shelled. It was a good move. Tippett called his in the 2nd. I can't remember the last time both teams used their timeout before the 3rd peroid. . actually it was in the 3rd after we put some monster pressure on them..
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Post by seventeen on Nov 14, 2002 21:56:05 GMT -5
Thanks BC, for stating in a rational, calm manner what I might have shouted out and blew an eardrum in the process. Bob McKenzie on TSN was just rating the Cdn teams so far. He said that if not for the goaltending, he's not sure the Habs would win a game this year. That's a single game and you know, I really have to agree with him. He pointed out that the Habs are giving up the most shots on goal per game, 32.5, and taking the fewest shots as well. I can't buy the argument about quality shots either. Plenty of ours are pretty weak efforts. And since we all agree we have enough talent to make the playoffs, the likelihood we wouldn't win a game without Theo or Hack, has to fall back on MThead and AS. At some point, AS is going to have to either fire MT or resign gracefully if he doesn't have the power to fire him. Well, actually he has to do no such thing, but it would be the honourable thing to do. If he doesn't want his own reputation to follow MT's down the proverbial toilet, he'd better act. In all truthfulness, I'm absolutely stunned at the blindness of the organization to see what seems relatively obvious to me. Doesn't the fact we get doubled up in shots around 25% of the time send any kind of signal? Once in a while, sure. But wow, are we consistent at it. Arrggh.. I keep this up, I blow a blood vessel.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 14, 2002 22:06:19 GMT -5
to fire MT, the media will have to put pressure on the Habs...it's always that way
BTW tell Bob he obviously missed the game against the Rangers...
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Post by Doc Holliday on Nov 14, 2002 22:09:52 GMT -5
Seventeen, that was our problem all year last year. If the goalie wasn't there to save our butts big time and take on the first star, we were in trouble.
Yet
No players moves were made to adress that particular issue (getting Chow, a soft defenless forward was only gonna make it worse...) and the coaches were kept.
So frankly we could only come to the conclusion that this shooting gallery style of hockey that we put forward is all OK with management. What can you do, it got us the playoffs last year and it's keeping us around the 8th position this year...
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Post by seventeen on Nov 14, 2002 22:20:06 GMT -5
Seventeen, that was our problem all year last year. If the goalie wasn't there to save our butts big time and take on the first star, we were in trouble. Yet No players moves were made to adress that particular issue (getting Chow, a soft defenless forward was only gonna make it worse...) and the coaches were kept. So frankly we could only come to the conclusion that this shooting gallery style of hockey that we put forward is all OK with management. What can you do, it got us the playoffs last year and it's keeping us around the 8th position this year... I know....., but it won't last. The odds of us getting a goalie performance equal to last year's is very low. And once the downward slide starts, this team doesn't have the character to turn it around. I fear (or is it hope?) that once the footing is lost, it's all the way to the bottom of the mountain. If that's what it takes to dispose of MT, fine with me. What I'm afraid of just as much, is that the same thinking that went into extending MT's contract will result in another loser coach being hired. More and more, it's becoming clear that the very top has to change. Not much chance of a new owner, but from there down......
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Post by UberCranky on Nov 14, 2002 22:44:05 GMT -5
HabsAddict’s Little Greek Fables.
One day, a Donkey was walking in the woods when he came upon the hide of a Tiger. “What a beautiful hide” he said to himself, “if I wear it everyone will think I am a Tiger”. So he donned on the hide and kept walking in the woods whereupon he met a Lion.
“I have never hunted with a Tiger” said the Lion. “do you want to go hunting together”. The Donkey proud to be in the company of Lions joined him for the hunt. Soon enough, they met a huge beast and at once the Lion charged. The Donkey who thought he was a Tiger also charged but soon enough, the beast mauled him and tore the Tiger’s hide off him. The Lion saw this but it was too late and also got mortally wounded.
“Why did you pretend you are a Tiger” said the Lion.
“Wouldn’t you be a Tiger for a day then a Donkey all your life?” said the Donkey.
“But I thought that you were a Tiger and now I am mortally wounded” said the Lion.
“It’s your fault for going hunting with me” said the Donkey. . . . . . . Is there a moral or two to this story?
Everyone thinks I'm a delusional schizophrenic, all except my friends deep inside my mind.................
......
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Post by Doc Holliday on Nov 14, 2002 22:55:53 GMT -5
HabsAddict’s Little Greek Fables. One day, a Donkey was walking in the woods when he came upon the hide of a Tiger. “What a beautiful hide” he said to himself, “if I wear it everyone will think I am a Tiger”. So he donned on the hide and kept walking in the woods whereupon he met a Lion.
“I have never hunted with a Tiger” said the Lion. “do you want to go hunting together”. The Donkey proud to be in the company of Lions joined him for the hunt. Soon enough, they met a huge beast and at once the Lion charged. The Donkey who thought he was a Tiger also charged but soon enough, the beast mauled him and tore the Tiger’s hide off him. The Lion saw this but it was too late and also got mortally wounded.
“Why did you pretend you are a Tiger” said the Lion.
“Wouldn’t you be a Tiger for a day then a Donkey all your life?” said the Jackass.
“But I thought that you were a Tiger and now I am mortally wounded” said the Lion.
“It’s your fault for going hunting with me” said the Jackass.. . . . . . Is there a moral or two to this story? Everyone thinks I'm a delusional schizophrenic, all except my friends deep inside my mind................. ...... ...mmm...errr...Let's see..OOOOOOOoh! I get it! You'd want for Michel "Tiger" Bergeron to be the new coach...
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Nov 14, 2002 22:57:54 GMT -5
Can you help me with the followiing: 1. What system are the Habs playing? 2. What set plays have you noticed on the power play? 3. When have you heard a player praising Therrien for helping his career? 4. When was trhe last time the coach called a time out when his team was starting to fall apart? Please tell me something. Would you compare the Hab's current play to: 1. Skilled pond hockey with great goaltending. 2. Well coached team capable of changing their game and tactics to match the opponent. Where would you rate Therrien in the current NHL? 1. System: Don't clear the puck from your own end. Don't keep it in the opponents end. Let the other team shoot on the goaltender and don't clear the slot or the rebounds. 2. Powerplay means when the puck is the opponents end, the defense pinches in and the forwards clear the puck back to the vacant point spot. 3. Odjick said something about MT but I think he was drunk at the time. 4. MT gave Ribeiro and Hainsey a time out and sent them to Hamilton. 5. Pond hockey, oui; skilled, non. 6. They never cange their tactics because they have none to change. Rating Therrien in the current NHL is impossible. He is below the AHL and about midpoint in Midget "A" among coaches.
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Post by PTH on Nov 14, 2002 23:35:38 GMT -5
Do you agree that Therrien should have been replaced in the summer? Do you agree that given the Hab's play so far this year and the way the kids are handle, Therrien's career should be executed with a blunt, rusted axe by as early as tomorrow? Bottom line, is your butt firmly planted in the bandwagon with the blood red FIRE THERRIEN banner on top? And last but not least. If this continues for another year or so, will you get on the "FIRE SAVARD" bandwagon whose form is now starting to take shape? The way I see it, MT's and AS's fates are highly intertwined. If pressure mounts on AS, he'll have to fire MT, but if the replacement can't do the impossible and get a club filled with expensive spare part defensively suspect veterans to play well defensively, then AS will wind up getting the axe too. AS seems to be trying to build the NYR way, only we don't even have the cash to get the top players.... *sigh*
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Post by JohnnyVerdun on Nov 15, 2002 0:23:32 GMT -5
I don't think that's fair to AS. He's not trying to build the NYR way, he's trying to ice a team the NYR way. And there is a difference. The building (perhaps too much of it, though I admit nothing) is really going on below the NHL level. MT is not building here at the NHL level as the handling of Bulis, Kilger and Hainsey attests, but he's understandably focused on winning now. But to compare what's going on with the organization overall as the NYR approach is not really accurate imo.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Nov 15, 2002 4:05:07 GMT -5
I don't think that's fair to AS. He's not trying to build the NYR way, he's trying to ice a team the NYR way. And there is a difference. The building (perhaps too much of it, though I admit nothing) is really going on below the NHL level. MT is not building here at the NHL level as the handling of Bulis, Kilger and Hainsey attests, but he's understandably focused on winning now. But to compare what's going on with the organization overall as the NYR approach is not really accurate imo. To be fair; Savard is building better than the Rangers way, but worse than the Blues, Flyers, Hurricanes, Thrashers, Wild, Senators, Stars, Bruins, Lightning, or Sharks way. Audette, Berezin, Gilmour, McKay and all the other declining 30 somethings are not my way of building for the future (5 year plan). A quick trip to the playoffs in 16th place on the back of a Vezina goaltender is not building.
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Post by montreal on Nov 15, 2002 18:03:57 GMT -5
To be fair; Savard is building better than the Rangers way, but worse than the Blues, Flyers, Hurricanes, Thrashers, Wild, Senators, Stars, Bruins, Lightning, or Sharks way. Audette, Berezin, Gilmour, McKay and all the other declining 30 somethings are not my way of building for the future (5 year plan). A quick trip to the playoffs in 16th place on the back of a Vezina goaltender is not building. Thats good. So the Wild, Lighting, Thrahsers are buliding a better team, even though we have made the playoffs 1 YEAR after being just as bad as them. Our prospects are consider in the top half of the league (HF, McKeen's both have Habs ranked high, McKeens has Habs 1st in prospects and 1st in prospect depth, or they did a few months ago when I had my subscrpition) Gilmor was one of our best players last year (led the team in assits) and Gilmor and Audette led the team in scoring in the playoffs. I' don't know why Savard got them. McKay has been here for what 12 games? Berezin/Chow, well we got to have somebody to take the Brian Savage/ Rosey/ Berezin/Czerkawski floater/coaster role.
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Post by seventeen on Nov 15, 2002 23:26:41 GMT -5
Thats good. So the Wild, Lighting, Thrahsers are buliding a better team, even though we have made the playoffs 1 YEAR after being just as bad as them. Our prospects are consider in the top half of the league (HF, McKeen's both have Habs ranked high, McKeens has Habs 1st in prospects and 1st in prospect depth, or they did a few months ago when I had my subscrpition) Gilmor was one of our best players last year (led the team in assits) and Gilmor and Audette led the team in scoring in the playoffs. I' don't know why Savard got them. McKay has been here for what 12 games? Berezin/Chow, well we got to have somebody to take the Brian Savage/ Rosey/ Berezin/Czerkawski floater/coaster role. Montreal, not sure why you're defending the 'brain trust' so staunchly. I'll agree that the drafting has been better the last 3 years, but the first good one (2000) in a while, was Houle's, not Savards. Our complaint concerning the kids has been the way they're handled, not the fact they were chosen in the first place. The last time I looked the Wild were ahead of us and so are the Lightning, despite being recent expansion teams. I don't know about you, but that bugs the hell out of me. Funnily enough, they're using their young players and 'lo and behold', the youngsters are contributing. If you seriously thing the Wild have more talent than we do, then let me show you some Kapuskasing moose pasture for sale. I don't think you believe the Wild are better. So why are they performing better? Sometimes its just luck and being on a roll (see this edition of the Bruins), but I don't believe the Wild will falter that much. The difference? Night and Day. Lemaire and Therrien. Absolute opposites. Look at this team, Montreal. Do you seriously think unless things change, they'll make the playoffs this year? Savard has put together an adequate team but with real chemistry flaws and a bad skills mix. His absolute worst move? Extending MT's contract. MT proved himself to be a real low brow within a month of his appointment (to me anyway) last year. But Savard can't see that? Yeah I know I don't have the 'inside' information on player character and player flaws that managers and coaches of the team will have, but some general behaviour patterns become apparent quickly, and they lead me to certain conclusions. I really get frustrated with people who don't get it and MT doesn't get it. Now, I'm wondering if Savard doesn't get it. But his hands may be tied, so I'm only somewhat critical of him. If he has full authority to deal with coaching, then he deserves to be fired, plain and simple. Anyone who lets other things overtake what's right in front of his face will not be able to make those tough choices in the future and I would not trust my money to him. The facts of our team are this....a) in general, the defense is not bright (Quintal, Dykhuis) not talented enough (Traverse) and not strong enough (all of them). Markov at least, makes up for his lack of strength with brains and skill. Brisebois would make a good 4th or 5th defenseman on a good team. The forwards are generally small, not nearly good enough skaters to make up for their size, not overly skilled and older. Almost all our players are older. Does that sound like a recipe for success? Does that sound like an organized, thoughtful plan? Not to me. Where I would cut some guys loose (for nothing, or even 9th round draft choice), Savard and Therrien remain loyal. Where I would bring young guys up for their energy and chemistry, AS and MT ostracize them to Hamilton (nothing against Hamilton, guys, it could be Fredericton, or Quebec City). I just think we're missing the boat in so many areas, and it does not appear from this viewpoint that management notices or cares very much. I haven't even touched on Therrien. He may not be the worst coach in the league but he'd be tied with some others who don't belong in the NHL as well (Curt Fraser, Bryan Trottier). There are probably a couple of dozen coaches not in the NHL who would do better. I know we could debate this till the Holsteins come home, but the only true answer will be in the standings at the end of the day. This year and next and next. Will we improve? I doubt it.
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Post by montreal on Nov 16, 2002 0:57:25 GMT -5
Well I defend Savard cause he's done a great job. Before he took over, our farm team was weak and not much to look forward too. Our team was full of AHLer's that plain sucked, and were painful to watch night in and night out. Is this team a playoff team. Yes, they should make the playoffs. Was tonight ugly, yes it was. Anyone remember last Decemeber? Yea that was much worse, and we still made the playoffs. For the month of November we are 3-3-1 and we have 18 gf 18ga. We have played @carolina, @toronto, St. Louis, NYI, LA, Dallas, @nj. Then Canes are a good team, Leafs are always tough for us, Blues are hot now, the Isles were hungary but unlucky, LA is a decent team and we were lucky, Dallas is one of the best in the league, and NJ has been great all season. So we are not playing good right now. Will it change, yes I think so. This team is better then last years team, but some players just cant get it going. Many players are struggling, why? I don't know. Theodore, Dykhuis, Quintal, Gilmor, Petrov, Chow, these guys have to pick it up. Our PK is one of our main problems. Last 2 games we give up the first goal thanks to a Czerkawski lazy play. Everyone wants to fire the coach. Not me. I blame Theodore, and then on down the list. Dykhuis has his head up his ass, Quintal is really struggling, Brisebois has had 2 bad games lately and Traverse it wasn't his night for sure (I still think he outplayed Hainsey, but somebody on defence has to sit, I would sit Dykhuis or Quintal) Gilmor and McKay have to do more, Petrov isn't effective, Czerkawski is a freakin joke, what a soft lazy piece of crap, Audette is snakebitten for sure he had a good shot that had a chance but Brouduer made a good save. Kilger doesn't seem to play well (when he does play) Lindsay doesn't do his job, Perreault is soft and lazy in his own end is prone to coasting.
These guys have to play better. Maybe a trade will wake them up. But I don't blame the coach, I blame the players. They suck cause they are not working hard. How many times did the Devils win a race to the puck. What can Therrien do? I saw Perreault, Chow, floating around like they were out for an open skate. I saw Dykhuis leave the front of the net and end up in no man's land while the Devils just crashed the net. You think Therrien tells these guys to do this? Maybe he wants to be fired, and tells his guys, yes please go out there, play like crap, like you don't care. Lose the battles along the boards, let them in the slot and just watch them, take lots of penalties cause our PK is so bad. This way he can be fired cause so far he has never been fired from any coaching job he has had.
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Post by Ged on Nov 16, 2002 11:41:27 GMT -5
You can't fire 21 players. Therrien cut his own throat when he opened up his trap against Carolina. The players don't want him and it shows. His extension was a farce. He'll be gone by Christmas, and if he isn't things will get even smellier, if that is possible.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 16, 2002 12:52:11 GMT -5
I agree. MT's demise started during game 4 when he took that ridiculous bench minor that gave the Canes a 5 on 3 PP for 2 minutes. Then, with a draw deep in our end he went with Juneau instead of Perreault on the draw, Canes won it, controlled the puck and Cole tied the game. And we all know the ridiculous move he made in OT...the players lost respect for him from that day on.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Nov 17, 2002 1:39:48 GMT -5
Thats good. So the Wild, Lighting, Thrahsers are buliding a better team, even though we have made the playoffs 1 YEAR after being just as bad as them. Our prospects are consider in the top half of the league (HF, McKeen's both have Habs ranked high, McKeens has Habs 1st in prospects and 1st in prospect depth, or they did a few months ago when I had my subscrpition) Gilmor was one of our best players last year (led the team in assits) and Gilmor and Audette led the team in scoring in the playoffs. I' don't know why Savard got them. McKay has been here for what 12 games? Berezin/Chow, well we got to have somebody to take the Brian Savage/ Rosey/ Berezin/Czerkawski floater/coaster role. If the team loses, blame the players. If it wins, credit the coach? I don't understand? Why is the team doing worse than last year? The old guys are a year older. I really like Gilmour, but this year he won't be as good as he was last year and next year he will get worse. I loved John Ferguson, but I don't want him on the ice any more. When you get old you slow down. (I'm still trying to play at 56 and I know this to be true unfortunately.) It's not that the coach wins games, but he is supposed to fire up the players and motivated players start to win. When you're winning you don't feel tired, you feel inspired. Sometimes you want to win but your feet don't do what your brain tells them. The players want to win. Kilger would like to carry the puck the way Ribeiro does but he can't. It doesn't stay on his stick. Quintal would like to clear the crease the way Robinson did, but he can't. Petrov would like to play like Cournoyer did and find the back of the net. Instead he gets the back of the glove. Brisebois doesn't want to see forwards fly around him so he closes his eyes. I love the team whoever owns them, coaches them and manages them; but facts are facts. We don't have the horses, leadership, stars and rookies. Except for goaltending we are not a playoff team. With outstanding goaltending we sneak into 16th place and hope for a break. Last years playoff appearance fooled some of us into thinking we really improved a lot. We cheered and wanted to believe it. We got deeper in small old journeyman retreads from other teams. We replaced a couple of soft floaters with new soft floaters. We don't have a Speeza, Boumeister, Weiss, Lecavalier, Gomez etc.
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Post by Viper on Nov 17, 2002 1:57:39 GMT -5
I was disappointed in Hainsey's play as well, but I still think he could have been handled better. He was great during the pre-season, playing against top AHL players and borderline NHLers, and he was fine during that first win against the Rangers. Then, the team got hammered, 6-2, back to back, and Hainsey looked bad. But so did Quintal, and Dykhuis (especially Quintal, in my opinion). Of the 6 defensemen out there, I would argue that Hainsey was 5th, or maybe even 4th. While that's not saying much, given how poorly as a unit they were playing, its still something. He wasn't the worst, but he paid the price anyways. They then went public, and told reporters that he was "too offensive, took too many risks" - at what point they suggested he was too harded, and refusing to pay attention to his own zone. Surprise, surprise, after sitting three games, Hainsey comes back tentative, nervous, taking no offensive risks (his game) and banging the puck off the glass to get it out (Green's game). He doesn't play the powerplay, is afraid to take any offensive risks for fear of being benched, and concentrates on playing a total Rick Green game. All the while playing with our worst defensemen. Instead of trying to beat him into Rick Green submission, they should have done like they are doing with Robidas in Dallas and like they did with Robidas and Weinrich - play him 10-13 minutes a game, give him powerplay time, pair him with an experienced vet, ease him into the NHL so that when he plays he is confident, and secure. Instead, they threw him into the fire, and then complained that he got burnt. just an aside considering the debate is around Therrien and AS but this is the absolute best explanation of the hainsey situation i have ever read. well said BC. i just had to recognize this one it's a beauty.
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Post by montreal on Nov 17, 2002 3:27:56 GMT -5
If the team loses, blame the players. If it wins, credit the coach? I don't understand? Why is the team doing worse than last year? The old guys are a year older. I really like Gilmour, but this year he won't be as good as he was last year and next year he will get worse. I loved John Ferguson, but I don't want him on the ice any more. When you get old you slow down. (I'm still trying to play at 56 and I know this to be true unfortunately.) It's not that the coach wins games, but he is supposed to fire up the players and motivated players start to win. When you're winning you don't feel tired, you feel inspired. Sometimes you want to win but your feet don't do what your brain tells them. The players want to win. Kilger would like to carry the puck the way Ribeiro does but he can't. It doesn't stay on his stick. Quintal would like to clear the crease the way Robinson did, but he can't. Petrov would like to play like Cournoyer did and find the back of the net. Instead he gets the back of the glove. Brisebois doesn't want to see forwards fly around him so he closes his eyes. I love the team whoever owns them, coaches them and manages them; but facts are facts. We don't have the horses, leadership, stars and rookies. Except for goaltending we are not a playoff team. With outstanding goaltending we sneak into 16th place and hope for a break. Last years playoff appearance fooled some of us into thinking we really improved a lot. We cheered and wanted to believe it. We got deeper in small old journeyman retreads from other teams. We replaced a couple of soft floaters with new soft floaters. We don't have a Speeza, Boumeister, Weiss, Lecavalier, Gomez etc. I never said credit the coach if they win. Think of it this way. When we lose, look at the players that made mistakes and didn't do their job. If the coach screws up blame him too, but when I see players not working hard, I am angry at them not Therrien or Savard. This team is doing worse then last year? I thought that they had a better record then last years team at this point. I know they did as of last week, they were a few points higher. Your right though, we dont' have a Speeza, Boumesster, Weiss, Lecavalier, Gomer, but we do have a Komisarek, Hainsey, Higgins, Hossa, Perezhogin.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 17, 2002 10:50:08 GMT -5
Komisarek and Hainsey are better prospects than Gomez ever was, no?
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Post by BCHab on Nov 17, 2002 14:58:22 GMT -5
Komisarek and Hainsey are better prospects than Gomez ever was, no? I agree. Gomez was playing here for the South Surrey Eagles in the BCJHL when he got drafted by New Jersey. I think he took everyone by surprise, the Devils included, when he made the team. To my knowledge, Komisarek and Hainsey were heavily scouted prior to the draft. Give NJ credit, they don't mind taking a chance with their first pick e.g. Sykora, Gomez. Much like Detroit does now
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 17, 2002 16:07:51 GMT -5
that's my point..Gomez was a late 1st rounder in 1998 and surprised the heck out of anyone when he made their team in 1999-2000. And you look at him today and he isn't really anything special.
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