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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 14, 2002 21:36:13 GMT -5
is Herr-Thornton-Murray Huml-Stumpel-Grosek Zamuner-Rolston-Axelsson Brown-Stock-Knuble Berard-Boynton O'Donnell-Sweeney Gil-Girard Grahame Shields really better than: Zednik-Koivu-Chow Gilmour-Perreault-Petrov Bulis-Juneau-Dackell McKay-Kilger-Audette Dykhuis-Brisebois Markov-Rivet Traverse-Rivet Theodore Hackett so why are Boston winning almost every game and we play terrible almost every game?
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Post by JohnnyVerdun on Nov 14, 2002 21:47:20 GMT -5
Two things come to mind:
First, Thornton's turning into a dominant force at center.
Second, the broons defence is moving the puck with a lot of snap. If you watch them that's the major difference.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 14, 2002 21:52:20 GMT -5
but it's not like their blueline has much more skill than ours. We SHOULD be able to get the puck out of our zone better than we do
We have to eliminate Quintal, Dykhuis and Traverse from that blueline if we want to go on a hot streak IMO
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Post by JohnnyVerdun on Nov 14, 2002 23:22:32 GMT -5
You know, MP, I honestly think it's a five-man band thing. When the forwards aren't doing their jobs well -- when the center's not helping out down low, when the wingers aren't winning battles on the boards above the circle, when there are too many 3 on 2 breaks -- the defence is bound to look bad. And when the goaltender handles the puck badly, makes bad decisions about when to throw it one way or the other, to or past the d-man, and where he gives up bad rebounds, the job just gets that much more difficult (By the way, I'd rate Hackett at about 8 out of 10 on puckhandling and Theo at about 6).
We have four forwards who are known for their defencive shortcomings: Audette, Czerkawski, Perreault and Petrov. Oleg is about the best of that bunch, and Audette the worst. These guys are all usually getting significant ice-time. Zednik often loses his focus on the way back, especially after he's expended a lot of energy in the offensive end, and Gilmour has lately been kind of lacklustre at both ends of the ice. All of that adds up.
Quintal has looked bad, there's no doubt about it. I haven't been disgusted by Dykhuis or Traverse at all. In the end, I think our problems, at both ends, are 5 deep. We're seldom on the break and moving with speed, three at a time, into the other end. Why not? Well, I think it starts in our end. But again, that's to say it's our d-men only.
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Post by PTH on Nov 14, 2002 23:31:23 GMT -5
I tend to agree with JV here - the problem is that we have several players with defensive shortcomings. Why are we surprised to see our players do badly in their own zone when many have precisely that reputation ?
If we were full of defensively excellent players I'd be worried, but that MT can't get Audette, Czerkawski, Perreault or Petrov to play a solid defensive game should come as no surprise. 3 of them got dealt because of their defensive problems and Petrov's value has never been high for the same reason.
As to the PK problems, that's basically a coaching problem, Charron tried to implement his system, it failed, and now Juneau, Dackell and co are doing things their way again.
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Post by The New Guy on Nov 14, 2002 23:40:20 GMT -5
I agree, and then I disagree JV. Yes - our forwards are making bonehead defensive plays which translate into the other team getting control of the puck. Yes Audette, Czerkaski, Perrault, Gilmour and Petrov have looked more or less lousy defensively. But that's not the issue. Yes, the puck control of our netminders probably doesn't help. But all that means squat in the end.
We're not being beaten because of defensive miscues by our forwards. We're not being beaten because Theodore and Hackett are giving up big gaping rebounds. We're losing because our defence does not grasp the basic fundamentals of playing their position.
Rewind the tape and look at all three goals by Dallas on Tuesday. Number one was a tip/screen of a point shot. Now look at where the Montreal defenders are. They're RIGHT NEXT TO THE MAN IN FRONT! But do they so much as put their stick on his, do they try and cover the man in front? No! This is BASIC PK HOCKEY folks. I learned to cover the man in front in Novice. But obviously our defenceman had their minds elsewhere while they were being taught that.
Next goal? Forward give up a bad 2-1 or 3-2 (I can't remember clearly). But thanks to Theo (and not Dykhuis, who was outhustled and almost behind the play when the Stars crossed the blueline) a tragedy was averted and Theo, unable to control the bouncing puck with so many black and green shirts around, guides it behind the net. Meanwhile Dykhuis arrives on the scene huffing and puffing and does not EVEN ATTEMPT to avoid hitting Theo - knocking him down and thus giving Malhotra all the mesh he needed.
The final goal? Arnott skates nicely through the slot and redirects a nice Turgeon (I think) shot to fool Theo. Maybe - just maybe - you could find Theo and/or the forwards at fault for this one, as he came in high-to-low, but it could hardly be said that both Montreal defencemen should've been chasing the one puck.
The difference between the Bruins and the Habs? The Bruin's blueline is disciplned. They don't run around, they don't make nearly so many boneheaded errors, and thus the fact that their goaltending is less than stellar is effectively hidden.
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Post by GoMtl on Nov 15, 2002 0:11:00 GMT -5
Boston is so much better because they can play defence, and obviously we can't. Traverse, Dyke, and Q have been awful this season (traverse was never anything more), i sure can't wait for Komisarek... for the time being we need to make a pick-up. Cory Cross, Steve Duchense, and Jason Wooley are available... not that appealing, but probably better than those three, one problem is they're not french, and that seems to equal into everything, and can be a bad thing.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 15, 2002 6:49:12 GMT -5
welcome aboard go MTl...oh please not Cory Cross he is worse than Quintal
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Post by Douper on Nov 15, 2002 8:38:58 GMT -5
Here's my 2 reasons... Therien and his Game Plans vs Ftorek and his Game Plans That's all I have to say about that.
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Post by 24andcounting on Nov 15, 2002 9:25:03 GMT -5
Who said Corry Cross. That IS NOT an upgrade. Trust me. As far as akward 6' 4" pylons go, this guy is it. I've never seen a guy this akward. He often loses his check and then pitchforks the player he's covering. He's terrible, absolutely terrible. Traverse is a big improvement over him.
To give you an idea, Traverse was Ottawa's 6-7 defenseman a couple of years ago. Cory Cross is/was Toronto's equivalent. Toronto's defense is FAR worse than Ottawa's. That should tell you something.
I wouldn't mind the veteran presence of Steve Duschene around here though. It does make our team (once again) older however.
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Post by HabBoy on Nov 15, 2002 10:35:26 GMT -5
Steve Duchesne!!!!!! Get him Savard...he would play for a song and would add experience and a big strong scoring defencemen to the Hab's Motley crew!!
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Nov 15, 2002 14:28:09 GMT -5
You left out the coaches. It makes a big diference.
I kept hearing how we were deep in good defensemen and it was one of this teams strengths. I started to believe it. Then we were deep in journeyman defensemen. Now we have defensemen who can't hit, don't clear the puck out of our end, and make mistakes that cost us. They aren't even mediocre. It's only our GREAT goaltending that saves us and keeps us around .500.
We don't have a Thornton or Samsonov. We don't have their size or physical play.
I've been preaching a lot about size. I don't just mean size. Koivu plays big, throws his body around and HITS the other team occasionally knocking someone down. illmore doesn't shy away from contact. They try to play big and sometines get injured. Some of our defense is big but they don't play big. They don't nail the guy who has his head down. They don't win the battles along the boards. They don't clear the slot and intimidate anyone who dares to enter the paint. They don't carry the puck up the ice and they don't clear the zone. Our defense is really playing poorly.
Our scorers aren't scoring and if not for the production from our two way players we would be WAY under .500.
Our goaltending has stolen a lot of wins for us. If Theo has a bad night we don't have the offensive punch to win. We lose big when the shots are 35 - 22 and we don't get miraculous goaltending.
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone when we lose.
My biggest beef is that I don't see things getting better. Our forwards are smurfs and these guys will not get any bigger in two years. Our forwards are over 30 and they will not get any younger in two years. We are counting on our prospects in Hamilton to come up to the NHL and rescue us. If Hamilton, stocked with Edmonton prospects too, was running away with the AHL I would be confident that we aren't still waiting for Ward and Chouinard to come up and contend for the Calder. Komi and Hainsey are good but they aren't locks like Speeza and Bouwmeister. Balej and Hossa are good too but not like Gomez and Thornton.
Therrien is doing a terrible job as coach, but I'm not sure that Toe Blake could win with this crew. Juggling the lines is like adding headers and a turbocharger to a Lada. You can make changes to get it working better, but don't try to compete with the Ferarri's and Porsches in the league.
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Post by MPLABBE on Nov 15, 2002 17:40:06 GMT -5
We don't have a Thornton or Samsonov. We don't have their size or physical play. Samsonov is injured and they are winning WITHOUT him look at that current lineup and add Guerin, Samsonov, McLaren, Dafoe and Lapointe instead of Herr, Huml and Grosek, Berard and Shields... how did we beat Boston in 6 again seeing us beat them and them get off to such a start makes me wonder if I know squat about the game of ice hockey.
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