|
Post by MPLABBE on Nov 4, 2002 8:52:39 GMT -5
does that sound like a fair deal? it's being proposed by Brunet in LaPresse:
''....One of the Rangers scouts, Gilles Leger, the former right hand man of Marcel Aubut on the Nordiques, followed the Canadiens this weekend. He traveled from Carolina to Toronto. The GM of the Rangers, Glen Sather, has never hidden his admiration for Chad Kilger. Too bad for Leger, Kilger didn't face the Hurricanes or the Maple Leafs. Is something brewing? Will the Canadiens try to get Tomas Kloucek, ex of the Cape-Breton Screaming Eagles?....''
With Rivet potentially being out, we will need a D...but another young one? can MT and Green live with that?
I'd do that trade in a second. Let Sather drool all over Kilger.
|
|
|
Post by UberCranky on Nov 4, 2002 8:58:22 GMT -5
I would not make that trade.
What is the intent here? To win hockey games or entertain the fans? Kilger is a lot more valuable as a third liner with 1-2 line pinching capabilities then Kloucek who at this point can only hit and take himself completely out of position. Marginal NHL skating.
Bad trade. Bad solution to our problems.
|
|
|
Post by BadCompany on Nov 4, 2002 9:22:28 GMT -5
Tough call. I like Kilger, I really do, but I also really like acquiring blue-chip defensemen. I really like doing that.
All depends on what the team wants to do, I guess. This would be the type of trade that is heavily, heavily dependant on the short and long term plans of the management types, and where they want to take this team. And on how they see certain players. Does Savard see Kilger as the team's future 3rd line center, #1 penalty killer? The guy he throws out there against other teams top lines? Or does he see Kilger as nothing more than a 4th line scrub, easily replaceable by guys like Gratton, Landry, Lindsay, etc.? If its the first option, then I don't make the trade. But if Savard doesn't see any future for Kilger, then yeah, I make it.
Kilger, if Savard only sees him as a 4th liner, is useful now, but replaceable. Kloucek could be a prime piece of the puzzle in 5 years. On the other hand, if Kilger is the top checking center, then he, and not Kloucek, is a prime piece of the 5 year puzzle.
Really, really, tough call. I personally want Kilger to get more time, to be groomed for Juneau's job, but nobody seems to be paying any attention to me. If Kilger is going to continue to sit in the stands, replaced by guys like Lindsay and Blouin, then I guess you gotta make the move.
So, my sit on the fence response would be; If Kilger isn't going to get prime training, prime ice time, and a useful role, then move him. Take Kloucek. But if the team sees a role for Kilger, an important role, then no, don't move him.
How's that for waffling? I could be prime minister...
|
|
|
Post by Douper on Nov 4, 2002 9:36:11 GMT -5
Kilger would only fit as a 4th line center and not a checking center... If you look at our Future at center would we have??? (In the system, I'm not talking about UFA, trades, etc) 1. Koivu 2. Ribiero 3. Higgins 4. Kilger If Kloucek can play, do it. If not keep Kilger for now.
|
|
|
Post by MPLABBE on Nov 4, 2002 9:37:43 GMT -5
I would not make that trade. What is the intent here? To win hockey games or entertain the fans? Kilger is a lot more valuable as a third liner with 1-2 line pinching capabilities then Kloucek who at this point can only hit and take himself completely out of position. Marginal NHL skating. Bad trade. Bad solution to our problems. Kilger is a 4th liner right now on this team. If we lose Rivet we'll need another D-man with size. and Kloucek is like what? 22? he has plenty of time to develop...that is if MT and Green are patient enough. They'll probably ask him to play offensive minded hockey
|
|
|
Post by MPLABBE on Nov 4, 2002 9:38:11 GMT -5
Kilger would only fit as a 4th line center and not a checking center... If you look at our Future at center would we have??? (In the system, I'm not talking about UFA, trades, etc) 1. Koivu 2. Ribiero 3. Higgins 4. Kilger If Kloucek can play, do it. If not keep Kilger for now. Plekanec as well
|
|
|
Post by zenseeker on Nov 4, 2002 10:08:09 GMT -5
NO WAY
Yeah let's trade the player who is the only that fits the bill of what we need at the forward position. That makes sense, but then again so does their reasons for benching Kilger for two games. I guess they got their big power forward in Riberio coming back in the line-up. Every Oiler fan i know is still pissed about losing Kilger for Zholtoc. All Kilger needs an is the ice time he deserves.
|
|
|
Post by Patty Roy on Nov 4, 2002 11:00:01 GMT -5
Kloucek is an interesting player. He's very big (6'3" 220), young (22) and is far more physical than any defenceman in our organization...however i have serious doubts that he is NHL ready, after all he was beat out of a roster spot by the incredibly useless Dale Purinton.
I think Kilger for Kloucek is pretty fair value, and i'm a big Kilger fan. Like BC, i would love to see Kilger given more responsibilities. At the very least he should be centering a 4th line right now with McKay and either Lindsay/Blouin on the left side. It seems though that MT and AS feel differently about Kilger and if he's never going to be more than a spare part 4th liner then i make this trade in a heartbeat.
|
|
|
Post by JohnnyVerdun on Nov 4, 2002 11:12:30 GMT -5
Mark me down as against this.
We have three young defencemen who are more likely to be top 4 material than is Kloucek: Hainsey, Komisarek and Markov. Add in Souray as a physical 4th or 5th, not to mention Rivet, and I'd say that despite the short-term problems of losing Rivet and Souray we should not do this. Kilger to me possesses the right blend of size, speed, youth, hockey smarts and versatility to be an important piece over the next three years, either at center or on the wing (in Juneau's or Bulis's spot, perhaps) and I wouldn't move him to fill a temporary hole on D. There are other solutions. There must be.
The Plekanec or Higgins solution for the 3rd line center spot is at least a year and probably two years away. Besides, what's wrong with a third line of Kilger/Higgins/Ferland? Don't move this guy. Not unless it's an offer that a sane man can't refuse. I don't think Kloucek is that offer...but I may be wrong. Can't say I've seen enough of him to know. So what I am saying is that I like Kilger and the deal better be a good one to justify moving him.....
|
|
|
Post by JacquesInFL on Nov 4, 2002 11:43:42 GMT -5
I really see this as one position of clear need (centre) versus a position where, yes, there is always room for more quality (d-corps).
For me, I think the looming problem is no size at centre, so no I would not make this deal. Acquiring a decent centre with size and wheels is almost as tough as finding quality d-men. Plus, like JV say, the long-term situation on the blueline appears good for the club. The catalyst for this type of deal is more likely the thinning of our d-corps due to injury -- perhaps Rivet for a significant period. Kloucek has the body and apparently the work ethic to make a positive impact; the problem is too many d-men learning on the job with a very average mentor (Green) seems like trouble.
But if Rivet is really gone, there will not be any ideal or magic solution to the trouble facing the Habs. Plenty of teams in the league are looking for a quality d-man or two to shore up their postseason aspirations and I would not expect Savard to beat the odds and find a viable replacement. You either go with someone marginal in-house like Bouillon or you basically roll the dice with another kid like Kloucek.
AS must see that we need size down the middle, right?
|
|
|
Post by HFTO on Nov 4, 2002 11:57:53 GMT -5
BC I hear ya and I agree with you! IMO Kilger is perfect for Joe juneau's role though it seems we have our detractors. Joe Juneau will not be here much longer and I to think Kilger is the most suited for the role,plus he gives us some size sorely lacking down the centre of our lineup. Its easier said than done but if Rivet is out we need someone who can step right in and replace him. HFTO
|
|
|
Post by Viper on Nov 4, 2002 12:02:35 GMT -5
Kilger is probably the best forward with size we have actually close to the only one for that matter. Moving him is an absolute mistake unless something similar comes back in a package or something but using him for Kloucek is creating holes to fill other's and not very intelligent if you ask me.
|
|
|
Post by MPLABBE on Nov 4, 2002 12:38:22 GMT -5
Holy cow does Chad Kilger have fans here or what I am not saying deal Saku Koivu here. I am proposing dealing a guy who has been a 4th liner, SOMETIMES 3rd liner for us for a potential masher from the left side on defence. A 22 year old masher. We can replace Kilger. Heck, have we missed this ''physical'' presence up front he is supposed to bring the last 2 games? If Rivet is out, we will have the softest defence in the NHL. Do you think forwards will be scared of Traverse? the raw Hainsey? the Slow Quintal? the scared to death Dykhuis? Souray is a month or two away from coming back and Markov/Breezy are offensive d-man. We will be in trouble with that defence.
|
|
|
Post by larek on Nov 4, 2002 13:14:23 GMT -5
I like Kilger but the fact is that he has quit hitting which is what he has to do to be effective,2 years ago it looked like he had made a breakthrough offensivly but he has since fallen from a promising forward who could provide grit to go with 15 goals ,he hasnt evn dressed in the last couple games and when he did play he was invisible,like i said i like the guy but i liked him more a couple years ago,if we are going to need a replacement for Rivet and Kilger is used to get that replacement then i say make a trade!
|
|
|
Post by Maritimer on Nov 4, 2002 14:19:09 GMT -5
I say he either gets rid of that fugly nike helmet or we deal him!
|
|
|
Post by larek on Nov 4, 2002 14:21:17 GMT -5
Agree!
|
|
|
Post by BadCompany on Nov 4, 2002 14:38:56 GMT -5
Holy cow does Chad Kilger have fans here or what I am not saying deal Saku Koivu here. I am proposing dealing a guy who has been a 4th liner, SOMETIMES 3rd liner for us for a potential masher from the left side on defence. A 22 year old masher. We can replace Kilger. Heck, have we missed this ''physical'' presence up front he is supposed to bring the last 2 games? If Rivet is out, we will have the softest defence in the NHL. Do you think forwards will be scared of Traverse? the raw Hainsey? the Slow Quintal? the scared to death Dykhuis? Souray is a month or two away from coming back and Markov/Breezy are offensive d-man. We will be in trouble with that defence. Actually, I think Mathias Brunet proposed it... With Rivet out, our defense may indeed be soft, but the question is, will Kloucek solve that problem in the short term? Again, he can't even make the New York Rangers. He has potential of course, but asking him to jump up from the AHL, replace Rivet, solidify our defence and turn our blueline into a feared entity, while still sticking to the don't-get-caught-out-position-Rick-Green philosophy may be a bit too much. So really, acquiring Kloucek, regardless of whether or not Rivet is out for the season, is a long term acquisition, with an eye aimed at 3-5 years from now, and not this weekend. As for dealing Kilger, as many have pointed out here, it all depends on what Kilger's role, both now, and more importantly, in the future, is going to be. If he is going to continue to be a 4th line, healthy scratch type player, both now, and in Savard's eyes, 3-5 years from now, then you make the deal. If, on the other hand, you think Kilger, like many people, myself included, think Kilger can be an important member of the team, both now, and again, more importantly in the future, then you don't. This would have to be a long term deal. Kloucek cannot be expected to step into our lineup and solve all our softness woes, anymore than Komisarek can. If you aren't ready, you aren't ready. So the real question, with this type of hypothetical deal, is who is going to be more valuable to Montreal 3 years from now? Kilger or Kloucek. I would tend to agree with JV, in that Kilger is the type of guy we are sorely lacking, both now and in the future, but do Savard and Therrien feel the same way?
|
|
|
Post by zenseeker on Nov 4, 2002 16:05:07 GMT -5
We wouldn't even be discussing this if Kilger received the proper amount of ice time. When he has been given a chance he has performed, but they continue to stick him on the fourth line. As a few of you pointed out, what do MT and AS perceive him as. I feel that he should be played on one of the top two lines to create more room for the smurfs while maintaining a healthy presence in front of net as well as dealing out some hits. They have benn doing this with Mckay on and off and it worked real well the past two games. Kilger who doesn't have as good of hands as Mckay yet does have the speed to keep up with the players on the first two lines and has the potential to get better. On top of this he is a good on the pk.
|
|
|
Post by MPLABBE on Nov 4, 2002 16:17:04 GMT -5
Actually, I think Mathias Brunet proposed it... what makes you think I didn't email him the proposition Interesting questions. What we can't forget is that Kloucek during the 2000-01 season at the age of 20 was impressing the Rangers a hell of alot and then blew his knee out. It takes time to come back from such an injury in some cases. Personally, I see Kilger as a 4th liner in our future if most our prospects develop. I think AS will want the ''hi ho silver'' approach to work(3 offensive lines) in the near future. I mean I doubt will Kilger overpass Koivu, Zednik, Bulis and then the prospects(Higgins, Plekanec, Perezhogin, Hossa, Balej, Milroy, Ribeiro+whatever pickup we may make) and have a spot on one of the top lines.
|
|
|
Post by MPLABBE on Nov 4, 2002 16:18:34 GMT -5
We wouldn't even be discussing this if Kilger received the proper amount of ice time. When he has been given a chance he has performed, but they continue to stick him on the fourth line. As a few of you pointed out, what do MT and AS perceive him as. I feel that he should be played on one of the top two lines to create more room for the smurfs while maintaining a healthy presence in front of net as well as dealing out some hits. They have benn doing this with Mckay on and off and it worked real well the past two games. Kilger who doesn't have as good of hands as Mckay yet does have the speed to keep up with the players on the first two lines and has the potential to get better. On top of this he is a good on the pk. with MT you have to give effort and play your game. Kilger's game(or what the Habs need him to be) is to be a physical presence. He doesn't do it nearly enough. He's a good PKer, a good checker,has good speed,etc but he needs to HIT. That's why he doesn't get all that much ice time.
|
|
|
Post by zenseeker on Nov 4, 2002 16:37:10 GMT -5
You make it sound like MT has a plan or a strategy. If so someone should tell him with the strategy is.
|
|
|
Post by cousin nark on Nov 4, 2002 16:58:22 GMT -5
The last 2 games have seen Montreal hitting a lot more, and look at the results. Chad should be that hitting catylst, but he hasnt been. When he doesnt hit he is so much less effective as a player. Although i like Kilger a lot, I think a trade such as this could be a great deal. To discount Kloucek because he 'couldnt even make the Rangers' just doesnt make sense. People want Savard to impress by stealing a deal, but that is usually done by picking up players that have been overlooked, havent had the chance to prove themselves due to injury or being on a team with much talent. If we look at the pros and cons of Kloucek, he definitely has much going for him. We have to ask ourselves if the things going against a player can be worked on (weak skating) or if they are things that are much more difficult to change (lazy or soft).
|
|
|
Post by MPLABBE on Nov 4, 2002 17:01:27 GMT -5
You make it sound like MT has a plan or a strategy. If so someone should tell him with the strategy is. One thing about MT: slackers who don't give alot of effort and don't play their game don't get ice time. Berezin, Audette, Asham and now Kilger are all examples. When you are a ''physical'' player you must hit especially when 90% of the forwards are under 6 feet tall.
|
|
|
Post by Doc Holliday on Nov 4, 2002 21:19:39 GMT -5
The last 2 games have seen Montreal hitting a lot more, and look at the results. Chad should be that hitting catylst, but he hasnt been. When he doesnt hit he is so much less effective as a player. Although i like Kilger a lot, I think a trade such as this could be a great deal. To discount Kloucek because he 'couldnt even make the Rangers' just doesnt make sense. People want Savard to impress by stealing a deal, but that is usually done by picking up players that have been overlooked, havent had the chance to prove themselves due to injury or being on a team with much talent. If we look at the pros and cons of Kloucek, he definitely has much going for him. We have to ask ourselves if the things going against a player can be worked on (weak skating) or if they are things that are much more difficult to change (lazy or soft). I like Kilger but I agree with your assessment of him. If the guy could establish himself physically on a consistent basis then he wouldn't be the guy continually losing his spot. There is no question that Kilger can throw solid checks or plant his butt in front of the goal during pp or win one on one battles against big opponents but the problem is that he doesn't do it consistently. Another thing going against Chad is that he has absolutely zero nastiness... As years passes by and teams gives up on him, Kilger reminds me more and more of Pat Poulin... That being said Kloucek doesn't do much for us... We already have 3 very good left handed young dmen in Markov, Souray and Hainsey... I wouldn't like that deal but I think Kilger is available for the right price.
|
|
|
Post by seventeen on Nov 4, 2002 22:47:10 GMT -5
How's that for waffling? I could be prime minister... Could we arrange that? (The Committee to elect anyone but a Westernphobic prime minister). I like Kloucek, but that's been all because of hearsay. He's supposed to be a hard hitting defensemen and I just hate those kind . I'm on your fence too, BC (and it's beginning to give me a sore butt). Kilger can contribute to our team, but he either isn't being allowed to (where have we heard that before?) or he's missing something that he needs to move up that one notch. Here's where you need a great projector to answer that question. If he's not going to give us more than he has this season and Kloucek is just suffering rehab pains, then you go for the deal. And have the Rangers throw in a 5th rounder (sarcasm, sarcasm).
|
|
|
Post by seventeen on Nov 4, 2002 22:56:16 GMT -5
One thing about MT: slackers who don't give alot of effort and don't play their game don't get ice time. Berezin, Audette, Asham and now Kilger are all examples. That's right. You can run around, like flubber, with no idea of positioning and as long as you flap your arms fast enough (I should know, being a rooster), you'll be on MT's christmas list. Packaging is everything with MT. Look like you're working, always say the right things -"The team is #1, everyone's trying their best, we got beat by a) hot goaltending, b) the referees, c) Mario Lemieux, d) their superstar trainer, 'I can't understand why Rick Green isn't in the Hall of Fame' - and you'll get your ice time.
|
|
|
Post by KILLger on Nov 4, 2002 23:40:20 GMT -5
does that sound like a fair deal? it's being proposed by Brunet in LaPresse: ''....One of the Rangers scouts, Gilles Leger, the former right hand man of Marcel Aubut on the Nordiques, followed the Canadiens this weekend. He traveled from Carolina to Toronto. The GM of the Rangers, Glen Sather, has never hidden his admiration for Chad Kilger. Too bad for Leger, Kilger didn't face the Hurricanes or the Maple Leafs. Is something brewing? Will the Canadiens try to get Tomas Kloucek, ex of the Cape-Breton Screaming Eagles?....'' With Rivet potentially being out, we will need a D...but another young one? can MT and Green live with that? I'd do that trade in a second. Let Sather drool all over Kilger. Kilger is what winning teams are made of. He isn't yet the force he could become, but give him time. He's a hard hitter with very good speed. Remember how efficient he was in last year's playoff, along with Koivu and Audette? Just because MT has Kilger in his doghouse doesn't mean we need to get rid of him. He seems smart enough to realize he wasn't putting a 110% effort forth and I hope he'll make the bext of his next chance. Considering his age, I think he should be a big part of our future. On a 3rd line, he could be our version of Kirk Maltby (and Bulis our Kris Draper... someone mentionned that on HF and I thought it made sense). The Wings are a very good team because they have superstars, but not only that, they have very good role players. We shouldn't just think offense and build a strong 3rd line. Bulis seems to be a good fit, Kilger could and I hope Chris Higgins becomes one too, he seems to play ala Micheal Peca, that'd make for a good line. ;D Anyway, I say we don,t move Kilger at all. Here's a Bio on Kloucek: GOING INTO CAMP: Kloucek hopes to return to 100 per cent capacity in 2002-03, after stuggling last year coming off knee surgery. ASSETS: Is a no-nonsense type behind the blueline and never takes any prisoners. Hits everything that moves and plays with tremendous passion. FLAWS: Lacks both defensive polish and a sound offensive game. Hasn't fully recovered from a serious knee injury suffered in 2000-01. CAREER POTENTIAL: Kloucek needs to rebound and place himself back in the Rangers' good graces. If he can still be a physical force in the NHL, the Rangers will live with his mistakes. forecaster.ca/thestar/hockey/player.cgi?1833
|
|
|
Post by MPLABBE on Nov 4, 2002 23:43:19 GMT -5
Is that you Chad? ;D We need Kilger to play like Darren McCarty.
|
|
|
Post by KILLger on Nov 4, 2002 23:50:28 GMT -5
Is that you Chad? ;D We need Kilger to play like Darren McCarty. If you are waiting for Kilger to fight, you'll wait for a while... Maltby is no slouch either... a very responsible defensive forward that can ship in offensively while giving good bodychecks, that's what I'd expect from Chad.
|
|
|
Post by MPLABBE on Nov 5, 2002 9:19:56 GMT -5
Yeah Maltby and Draper are both excellent role players.
If Kilger can do that, he will have a job for a long time....
|
|