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Post by UberCranky on Oct 30, 2002 21:37:28 GMT -5
The Hollow Man?
Few on this board where any more loyal and vociferous supporters of Andre Savard then me. But, in view of what has happened in the summer and the way the team is playing in the last month or so and one has to wonder what the man on the top is doing.
Every organization, including the Hab’s has some form of hierarchy where ultimately, the man on the top has to answer to what all his people are doing. Blaming Chow, Audette or any other player for lack of production has to fall on the shoulders of the coach and his staff. After all, he is responsible for everything his players do, and in this case do not do. Questions of systems, discipline and motivation are the responsibility of the coach and his assistants, not the GM. However, if they fail to perform their duties then what does one expect to happen? Shouldn’t the General Manager step in and make sure that the necessary steps are taken? If his underlings do not perform, should he not replace them posthaste?
Savard has done an adequate job with the relatively easy part of making this team competitive but does he have the depth of knowledge and the intuition to bring this team to the next step? Does he have the fortitude to make the tough decisions? It is becoming apparent that we have to questions his moves, or lack there of. One has to wonder if it is only a veneer of adequate capabilities surrounding a core of incompetence. Or is it merely a sea of inexperience that has drowned his decision making?
Is he as capable of doing what we had hoped for, dreamed of and held so much promise or is he the Hollow Man?
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 30, 2002 21:47:50 GMT -5
So many questions, so few answers until AS makes the big trade we are all expecting him to make.......
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Post by seventeen on Oct 30, 2002 22:15:01 GMT -5
We could get better in a hurry with a competent system and better positional play. Hmmmm, how do we do that?
I haven't seen anything, but is Quintal injured? Out for a while? (Insert Hopeful face). I'm not waiting with bated breath...the guy is so durable it's disgusting. Kind of like a Racicot who plays every game.
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Post by Viper on Oct 30, 2002 22:53:39 GMT -5
It is for the aforementioned reason's that i have never been completely behind AS.
Up until now he has merely made us an Adequate competitor (and if not for goaltending it could easily be argued he hasn't even achieved that yet. )
There has yet to be any significant trade that has stood out clearly as an absolute winner. There has also yet to be anything majorly significant beyond picking up other people's waste and trying to form a veteran mold (which in some cases is like a piece of old bread.)
The only good thing on the rise is our young blueliner's and prospect's if we are in a situation where we are going to remain competitive while building through the draft saddle up the youngest philly you can find, that's gonna be a horse we need to get alot of miles out of before we are truly contendor's.
As for me i'm not that patient but it could be I almost have to be. I also would suggest that If the build through the draft is part of the plan why try anyhow just ship out the veteran dead weight bring up the kids and build ala tank for a couple more year's. By the time the hossa's balej's Komisarek's etcetera come in we will have another 2 or three good young bluechipper's on the verge if we are picking in the top 5 or so.
In the NHL when you hit rock bottom sometimes the best way out is to stay there for a while. This situation is not like that we only stayed there for a short time.
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Post by Pam on Oct 30, 2002 23:13:23 GMT -5
You guys sound like us, but with one difference. At least your coach isn't also your GM. In our case, our coach is also our GM.
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Post by JohnnyVerdun on Oct 30, 2002 23:32:19 GMT -5
Is he as capable of doing what we had hoped for, dreamed of and held so much promise or is he the Hollow Man? What are you talking about? What the hell has gotten into you? Savard's given MT enough NHL talent to see what he can do, and so far he's not excelling. Is it a perfect squad? No, of course not, but the guy has enough talent and NHL experience on this roster that his biggest headache is deciding which former 30 goal scorer to scratch. I'm not discounting it. I recognize that juggling these egos is a problem and that the absence of guys like Martin Lapointe and Brian Rolston and Scott Thornton makes this less than MT's ideal roster, but the guy is hardly a starving Somalian for cryin' out loud. Bringing it to the next level? Well, I suspect Savard recognized by December 2000 that this was not going to happen in the pro hockey equivalent of a blink of an eye (about 2 years) but rather would take between 3 to 5 years. That, incidentally, is the timeline I settled on when I started following the Habs again after 8 years on the wagon (during which time I focused exclusively on dog racing in south Florida). Three to five. That was the scope of the disaster that befell this franchise. And we were befelled from within. We used our own axe to smash our own tibias. So the team isn't bolting out of the gates here in 2002 and we have, first and foremost, a crisis of confidence. The team and the coaching staff may be confident that Theodore will rebound, but they're not confident with him between the pipes when the puck drops. Their is the lingering lack of confidence on the part of the players in the decision-making on the bench, which is justifiable, and the dissension it breeds further erodes the coach's confidence in himself. So what should Savard do? Well, he has two choices. He can simply let it play itsef out, by staying mute and leaving Therrien to find his own solutions to problems which are not the worst that a coach can face (compare injuries to players like Koivu, or Jason Allison, for example) or he can call a meeting with the players, voice his displeasure and give Therrien a vote of confidence. I vote for the former. The speech from the GM has a kind of "your father's home now" kind of quality to it that I don't think helps the coach in the long run. That's what he should do. Nothing. Let MT and his staff wrestle with this stuff themselves. Besides, Savard is busy, or he should be. He should be busy trying to deal Hackett, notwithstanding Theo's rough start. Theo's no flopper who relies on luck. He's a sound goalie and he'll get his game back on track. Our problems are not in net. Not our real problems. So while Savard is looking to make a deal with Hackett, he should be trying to help out MT by taking one of the cards out of his hand that's causing him confusion: Audette. If possible, Savard should be looking to add a winger with some pop, but that's not likely to happen, and he shouldn't force the issue. If it's not there, take the picks and look to the future. At least with a deal in November nobody can say you're folding the tent and aiming for next year, and in fact he won't be doing that. The next level, to come back to the main point, is a year or two away yet. That level will be reached when we have more players in our lineup that resemble Bulis, Kilger and Zednick. Think Hossa, Balej and Plekanec. Think Higgins. Think Komisarek. That's where Savard is aiming. For a lineup that includes more of the guys he knew we'd have to wait for when he took over 2 years ago, even if he didn't know all their names. Zednik, Koivu, Bulis, Kilger, Balej, Hossa, Plekanec, Komisarek, Hainsey, Markov, Garon and Theodore. That's half an NHL roster. They won't all excel, for sure, but there are enough of them on the way that we can be confident that the tide is turning for this franchise. And that's what Savard was hired to do. Does he have the depth of knowledge and intuition to take us to the next level? To me he's already shown that he does. By not moving a single pick higher than a 4th. By drafting well. By not rushing the few quality prospects that he inherited. By adding guys who want to play in Montreal and signing guys who can and will help over the next three years (Theodore, Zednik, Rivet and Brisebois). And by rebuilding the organization from within while keeping the current roster stocked with enough talent that people actually expect the team to finish 6th in the East...And if people didn't expect more from the current batch of retreads and cast-offs, why on earth would there be so much squawking?
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Post by UberCranky on Oct 31, 2002 1:06:10 GMT -5
I’m hurting Johnny, I’m hurting bad.
I use to carry a selection of baseball bats, ready to do a little knee-capping to anyone who dared take the Savardian name in vain. Was it not I, with a tear in my eye, every time I cast a glance at my Savard Icons? Who was it that traveled barefoot through Uzbekistani villages looking for virgin yet buxomly maidens to hand stitch The Savard Dolls? There was nothing I wouldn’t sacrifice, especially the wife.
Savard's given MT enough NHL talent to see what he can do, and so far he's not excelling.
I don’t mind if Therrien was not excelling but the man’s coaching abilities reek worse then rotten horse flesh. Is there a single game this season that the Hab’s looked good? One game? Even putrid Anaheim made a game of it. You know and I know that there is NO system, NO player discipline and NO effort from these “enough talent and NHL experience” players. They appear to have tuned out the coach. Can’t Savard see this?
I recognize that juggling these egos is a problem and that the absence of guys like Martin Lapointe and Brian Rolston and Scott Thornton makes this less than MT's ideal roster, but the guy is hardly a starving Somalian for cryin' out loud.
That’s my point JV. Why isn’t Savard pro-active in getting rid of the coach’potatoes? Is it possible for a General Manager to keep looking at an on ice disaster and sit idly navel gazing? Therrien will never get “better”. Only the roster.
Could it be that Savard is second guessing himself and is afraid to do anything? In my experience, managers who lacked confidence, experience or skill always chose the path of least blame. He can hide a bit behind the shield of “rebuilding” but if he changes the coach and things go badly then he will have nowhere to hide. Are the laws of human nature different for hockey General Managers from what they are from other businesses? Sainthood notwithstanding. Is Savard pondering a slew of convoluted choices that have no clear path to success? Change the coach, but will the next coach do better? Wil the players respond? Will he be able to get along with him? Will he the new coach create cliques? What if the new coach exposes Savared's soft underbelly of “smurf trading”. What if the new coach is smart enough to shift the blame for mediocrity back onto Savard? Lets say he brings Gainey in to coach. If the Hab’s still do badly do you blame Gainey? I think not.
I have seen managers of billion dollar businesses go blank with indecision from the myriad of choices they have. Even in my own widget business, I often vacillate with indecision at the marginally different myriad of options I have. Human minds can only weigh so many options during hockey season.
Savard has to do something. If Therrein is not going to be the coach of the future then why wait until all is lost in the present? There is not a single upside to holding on to Therriens g-string. MThead invariably will break it off and finally exposes himself to the MiniMe of coaching that he really is. I am seriously concerned that Therrien can do more harm to the young players by breaking their confidence and introducing a pandemic “Rosie” attitude. Think back to the Hab’s of the Glory Years. Rookies would shake uncontrollably and wept into adult diapers when they crossed the threshold to the Hab’s dressing room. Would MThead mutinies leave an odor of irrelevance of the Hab’s mystique? It use to mean something to wear the CH.
Who does one ultimately blame if there is no action? Three to five year plans are nice but today, right now, there is a problem that must be addressed by Savard. In the real world, where man play for keeps and people livings and well being are at stake, real General Managers take action if things start go wrong. They do NOT wait for disasters. Even in the fairy tale world of man playing kids games there must be accounting of actions. The puck stops at Savard’s desk.
*sigh*
It’s gotten bad Johnny, very bad. My wife says that I use to talk in my sleep, muttering “die mthead die”. But that’s nothing. Now, she says that I sleep walk to the bathroom, pick up my toothbrush and repeatedly stab rolls of toilet paper muttering the same thing. I don’t really believe her, but I do wake up in the morning with a toothbrush in my hand and my teeth are still not whiter then white.
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 31, 2002 9:11:21 GMT -5
Well, lets not swing the pendulum too far the other way now.
Savard was never the genius some made him out to be in the beginning, but neither is he as bad as you may be suggesting here. We have to keep in mind, that despite his wealth of hockey experience, this is his first general manager's job, and that he will make mistakes.
And there have been mistakes. Our problem here is that we compared him to his predecessor, and in the beginning at least, Savard looked god-like (or Saintly). As time goes on, as the memory of those horrid years fails, we have stopped looking at Savard in comparison to Houle, and more at Savard in comparison to other GMs. And in that respect, Savard is no longer a clear-cut winner.
But that is not to say he hasn't done a good job, our incessant nit-picking here at HabsRus aside. The results speak for themselves. Never mind the whole "never would have made it without Theo" argument, which is perhaps valid, but look instead at our roster; see any Linds, Landrys or Campbells? We are second in the division, .500 hockey, and the season could still very, very easily turn around.
When, exactly, should Savard have fired Therrien? This is a guy, afterall, who received votes for coach of the year afterall. Do you fire him after he takes the team to the second round of the playoffs, when many were predicting a bottom 5 finish? Do you fire him less than 10 games into a season, when you are still within striking distance of the division lead? That just reeks of panic. We may believe Therrien has to go, and the players may believe Therrien has to go, and Savard himself may believe that Therrien has to go, but as you yourself probably know, there is a time to fire somebody, and unfortunately this isn't the time. Are you going to fire him because Donald Audette is upset at being benched? Who here didn't want to bench Audette? Because Marius Czerkawski didn't feel enough love when he arrived at Dorval Airport? Most people don't see the lack of a system, so if you try to pass that off as your excuse, and people are going to wonder if there was "another" reason, and they will make up all kinds of things to support that. You fire Therrien now, and you look like Bobby Clark. Reality dictates that Savard has to wait for a 5 game losing streak, and I suspect that is exactly what he is doing.
Savard has done an adequate job. I would dare to say he has even done a good job. But as I have been saying for a while now, the easy moves have been made, and now the fun begins. NOW we see what Savard is really made of. Does he panic, and deal a key part of the future (like a Hainsey), or does he stay the course, and get back to acquiring key, essential pieces that fit a plan? Acquiring Juneau and Dackell fit a plan, and it worked beautifully. Acquiring Audette and Czerkawski doesn't appear to fit a plan, or at least not a plan that is working. Is Savard going to continue his little trend of picking up veterans for a run at a playoff spot, or is he going to gamble, and try to build a contender?
His first year here, Savard made a lot of good moves, going for youth, size, and speed. Those moves worked wondrously (well, maybe not the Traverse move). Maybe the success went to his head a little bit, and he thought that with just a couple of more proven veterans, he could push this team to the top, in a Carolina Hurricanes type fashion. Not a totally unrealistic belief, given the state of the Eastern Conference. It hasn't worked so far, but its still very, very early. All Savard has to do, to redeem himself in the eyes of everyone here, is to start listening to my advice. Do that and all will be well...
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Post by JohnnyVerdun on Oct 31, 2002 10:57:02 GMT -5
Savard absolutely, positively, 100% has the balls to stay the course. He will not deal top tier prospects (in which category fall Hainsey, Komisarek and Hossa) unless part of a package to bring back similar studliness, or studidity, whatever it's called, back our way.
You raise a good point about timing, though. I advocate letting Therrien find his own solutions (for the most part). And though I think Therrien and Green do have to go, this is certainly not the time.
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 31, 2002 11:00:26 GMT -5
Well, lets not swing the pendulum too far the other way now. Savard was never the genius some made him out to be in the beginning, but neither is he as bad as you may be suggesting here. We have to keep in mind, that despite his wealth of hockey experience, this is his first general manager's job, and that he will make mistakes. And there have been mistakes. Our problem here is that we compared him to his predecessor, and in the beginning at least, Savard looked god-like (or Saintly). As time goes on, as the memory of those horrid years fails, we have stopped looking at Savard in comparison to Houle, and more at Savard in comparison to other GMs. And in that respect, Savard is no longer a clear-cut winner. But that is not to say he hasn't done a good job, our incessant nit-picking here at HabsRus aside. The results speak for themselves. Never mind the whole "never would have made it without Theo" argument, which is perhaps valid, but look instead at our roster; see any Linds, Landrys or Campbells? We are second in the division, .500 hockey, and the season could still very, very easily turn around. When, exactly, should Savard have fired Therrien? This is a guy, afterall, who received votes for coach of the year afterall. Do you fire him after he takes the team to the second round of the playoffs, when many were predicting a bottom 5 finish? Do you fire him less than 10 games into a season, when you are still within striking distance of the division lead? That just reeks of panic. We may believe Therrien has to go, and the players may believe Therrien has to go, and Savard himself may believe that Therrien has to go, but as you yourself probably know, there is a time to fire somebody, and unfortunately this isn't the time. Are you going to fire him because Donald Audette is upset at being benched? Who here didn't want to bench Audette? Because Marius Czerkawski didn't feel enough love when he arrived at Dorval Airport? Most people don't see the lack of a system, so if you try to pass that off as your excuse, and people are going to wonder if there was "another" reason, and they will make up all kinds of things to support that. You fire Therrien now, and you look like Bobby Clark. Reality dictates that Savard has to wait for a 5 game losing streak, and I suspect that is exactly what he is doing. Savard has done an adequate job. I would dare to say he has even done a good job. But as I have been saying for a while now, the easy moves have been made, and now the fun begins. NOW we see what Savard is really made of. Does he panic, and deal a key part of the future (like a Hainsey), or does he stay the course, and get back to acquiring key, essential pieces that fit a plan? Acquiring Juneau and Dackell fit a plan, and it worked beautifully. Acquiring Audette and Czerkawski doesn't appear to fit a plan, or at least not a plan that is working. Is Savard going to continue his little trend of picking up veterans for a run at a playoff spot, or is he going to gamble, and try to build a contender? His first year here, Savard made a lot of good moves, going for youth, size, and speed. Those moves worked wondrously (well, maybe not the Traverse move). Maybe the success went to his head a little bit, and he thought that with just a couple of more proven veterans, he could push this team to the top, in a Carolina Hurricanes type fashion. Not a totally unrealistic belief, given the state of the Eastern Conference. It hasn't worked so far, but its still very, very early. All Savard has to do, to redeem himself in the eyes of everyone here, is to start listening to my advice. Do that and all will be well... That has got to be one of the best posts written on this board! Amen to that!
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Post by The New Guy on Oct 31, 2002 11:16:57 GMT -5
Good work B.C. - said what I would've said, only much more eloquently.
The thing is, what we all fail to realize, is that being a GM is not as easy as saying "Oh, this guy is invisible this year, let's trade him" or "We have too many right wings, so let's package one with our extra starting goalie and get ourselves a stud centre in return" or "This coach sucks - he's fired."
We need to be patient. Sure, we could move Audette & Hack today, fire Michel Therrien, tell Gilmour to go retire and watch where everything falls. Or we could take our time, plan our moves, get the best deal and keep straight on the course we're steering - Stanley Cup Contendership.
I'm in no rush. Savard can take five years if he likes. We just need to learn to relax - Savard is an above average GM with far superior drafting skills (Komisarek et al). We'll be just fine. Just fine...
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Post by clear observer on Oct 31, 2002 11:19:25 GMT -5
"That has got to be one of the best posts written on this board! Amen to that!" Oh, I dunno...this one here is pretty damned impressive! : ;D CO
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Post by JacquesInFL on Oct 31, 2002 12:09:02 GMT -5
Nice posts (and nice image CO). Is that really Michel Therrien before he started his coaching career?
The only point I add to this thread concerns the type of depth Habs are collecting. For me, unless you bring in a vet (Verbeek did this, Muller still doing it, etc.) who has agreed to play a 4th line role and maybe move up if injuries occur, then it not wise to have big egos sitting around and whining. Depth is crucial, but I think it has to come from three sources:
1) from talented kids who can hang tough with the top lines (Spezza comes in to a well-oiled system like Jacques Martin's and the beat goes on or Frolov takes Palfy's spot, etc.)
2) fill holes with younger guys that can move around in the lineup and not embarass you -- for Habs, players like Bulis and Kilger have versatility.
3) from vets who have accepted limited ice time and then fill up when needed. The problem for Savard is that none of his veterans (not counting stiffs like Lindsay, and I'm not so sure about McKay) fit this profile and, quite frankly, all of them make way too much money to cast them in this role even if they would accept it.
Bottom line, IMO: to an extent, Savard needs to make a choice (and fast, judging from all the whining coming in the room) and cut loose an offensive RW. Sure, he may not, for instance, get anything for Audette but sometimes an improvement in the overall chemistry is the benefit. Personnel decisions are pressing now, and any hypothetical new coach on the horizon will do better if the Habs get on with that business.
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Post by Ged on Oct 31, 2002 12:12:47 GMT -5
Obviously firing Therrien now would be a knee jerk reaction and highlight the word "panic" that would be plastered across AS's forhead. Therrien was never the right choice in my books and it became readily apparent as time went on. Being outshot in 90 percent of your games can never lead to too much success. What we had last year was Theodore single handedly squeak this team into the playoffs. The final straw for Therrien was the bench minor for yapping that ended the Carolina series. Since then we have the same team, theoretically a little more offensive, still getting outshot badly every night. Theodore has started poorly. Every night we need a goaltender to steal a win because we have players who have no confidence in the coach. It shows in the effort level. Now may not be the right time to bring down the axe, but the sooner the better.
P.S. Nice work on the special teams M.T.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Oct 31, 2002 12:14:10 GMT -5
My concern is whether or not Savard has the balls to make the bold or potentially risky move. It's easy to stay the course, and wait for guys like Komisarek, Hossa, and Balej to replace Quintal, Audette, and Perreault, and if that's all it takes to be a contender then all we have to do is wait 2 years.
But I'm not convinced. We need an infusion of talen from OUTSIDE the organization to make the jump, and whether or not that happens this year or next year won't change that reality. We need to get bigger and stronger up the middle, and if you want a player like Patrick Marleau or Jason Arnott, it's gonna cost you the likes of Markov, Hainsey, and Hossa. Serge Savard had lots of big name players to deal (Muller for Turgeon; LeClair and Desjardins for Recchi). Andre Savard only has prospects to deal, unless you want to throw Koivu and Theodore into the mix. To me that means you may have to give up a lot of future potential to get something of current value in return, and Savard probably only has one major deal that he can swing - he can't screw it up.
What I don't like about Savard is that he seems to take the path of least resistance; making the easy play as it were. As BC has pointed out, Savard's moves have been perfectly reasonable with little downside, so in that light axing Therrien would have seemed irrational, and Savard doesn't like to make waves.
But at some point he IS going to have to make waves. Lou Lamoriello fired Robbie Ftorek with like 2 weeks left in the season because he didn't like what he was seeing on the ice...and the team was in first place and won the Cup for crying out loud! I think we've all seen enough from Therrien and I'm sure Savard has too. If there is an adequate replacement out there (Claude Julien, Larry Robinson) I say do it NOW.
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 31, 2002 12:39:28 GMT -5
"That has got to be one of the best posts written on this board! Amen to that!" Oh, I dunno...this one here is pretty damned impressive! : ;D CO Is that HA? ;D
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 31, 2002 12:40:57 GMT -5
Bottom line, IMO: to an extent, Savard needs to make a choice (and fast, judging from all the whining coming in the room) and cut loose an offensive RW. Sure, he may not, for instance, get anything for Audette but sometimes an improvement in the overall chemistry is the benefit. Personnel decisions are pressing now, and any hypothetical new coach on the horizon will do better if the Habs get on with that business. I agree. The Habs have 3 RW's who must play on the top 2 lines and play at RW to be effective. One of them has to go.
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 31, 2002 12:43:24 GMT -5
But I'm not convinced. We need an infusion of talen from OUTSIDE the organization to make the jump, and whether or not that happens this year or next year won't change that reality. We need to get bigger and stronger up the middle, and if you want a player like Patrick Marleau or Jason Arnott, it's gonna cost you the likes of Markov, Hainsey, and Hossa. Serge Savard had lots of big name players to deal (Muller for Turgeon; LeClair and Desjardins for Recchi). Andre Savard only has prospects to deal, unless you want to throw Koivu and Theodore into the mix. To me that means you may have to give up a lot of future potential to get something of current value in return, and Savard probably only has one major deal that he can swing - he can't screw it up. I agree. And that's probably why we won't see a blockbuster. Just a typical AS move. Deal a player for another. Change the chemistry, get rid of one of the RW's,etc
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Post by UberCranky on Oct 31, 2002 20:15:03 GMT -5
Well, lets not swing the pendulum too far the other way now. ... " Down — still unceasingly — still inevitably down! I gasped and struggled at each vibration. I shrunk convulsively at its every sweep. My eyes followed its outward or upward whirls with the eagerness of the most unmeaning despair; they closed themselves spasmodically at the descent, although death would have been a relief, oh! how unspeakable! Still I quivered in every nerve to think how slight a sinking of the machinery would precipitate that keen, glistening axe upon my bosom." If one ties himself on the table of complacency then one will feel the blade that is made of entropy and sharpened by chaos. The wise ones, the experience ones see it develop and change it’s course before the momentum is to great and the swing cuts and crashes everything in it’s path. The pendulum, my friend, is gathering speed………………….
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Post by UberCranky on Oct 31, 2002 21:06:15 GMT -5
But at some point he IS going to have to make waves. Lou Lamoriello fired Robbie Ftorek with like 2 weeks left in the season because he didn't like what he was seeing on the ice...and the team was in first place and won the Cup for crying out loud! I think we've all seen enough from Therrien and I'm sure Savard has too. If there is an adequate replacement out there (Claude Julien, Larry Robinson) I say do it NOW. Nice posts (and nice image CO). Bottom line, IMO: to an extent, Savard needs to make a choice (and fast, judging from all the whining coming in the room) and cut loose an offensive RW. Sure, he may not, for instance, get anything for Audette but sometimes an improvement in the overall chemistry is the benefit. Personnel decisions are pressing now, and any hypothetical new coach on the horizon will do better if the Habs get on with that business. Thank you for agreeing with me gentleman. It appears that there are those amongst us who believe that we have to see the mushroom cloud before they yell “fire”. If in fact it is inevitable then why wait? It’s not like Therrien is sought after or considered a protégé in his field. Not even a student of his craft. Not even a laborer in his job. Not even suited as a beast of burden……………<br>
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Post by legaspesien on Oct 31, 2002 21:29:05 GMT -5
Verry good post BC Savard's given MT enough NHL talent to see what he can do, and so far he's not excelling.
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Post by PTH on Oct 31, 2002 23:32:50 GMT -5
What are you talking about? What the hell has gotten into you? Savard's given MT enough NHL talent to see what he can do, and so far he's not excelling. Is it a perfect squad? No, of course not, but the guy has enough talent and NHL experience on this roster that his biggest headache is deciding which former 30 goal scorer to scratch. I'm not discounting it. I recognize that juggling these egos is a problem and that the absence of guys like Martin Lapointe and Brian Rolston and Scott Thornton makes this less than MT's ideal roster, but the guy is hardly a starving Somalian for cryin' out loud. Good point, but he did give MT a roster with some serious balance problems, and a lot of similar players with annoying egos. I often wonder if last years playoff run wasn't shooting ourselves in the foot, in a way, because it raised expectations way, way before they were reasonable. Now the Habs are expected to make the playoffs by a lot of casual fans and ignorant reporters. I don't know if AS does have a 3-5 year plan like you think he does, but it's the only reasonable explanation for many of his moves. But I don't know if the fanbase can accept that, or if AS will be pushed into hurrying things up. Agreed.... AS did his job over the summer, now it's MT's turn to do his. AS might want to move some deckchairs around, but nothing too radical. Take picks back in a trade ? Not likely, given AS's trade pattern... Problem is, guys like Zednik and Koivu might be on their way out by the time a guy like Higgins is ready... You make a good case of patience. But if we have to wait for success, we at least want a solid effort out there, and we aren't getting it.
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Post by Viper on Oct 31, 2002 23:39:39 GMT -5
You make a good case of patience. But if we have to wait for success, we at least want a solid effort out there, and we aren't getting it. Exactly if we could see the guy's giving it all they've got every night and they came up short that's fine and dandy patience is easier then but when they just half ass it like they have been it's totally frustrating to watch as a fan and i personally am getting tired of it really fast. Excellent point PTH if the effort was there the amount of negative energy from me would be alot less and i'm sure it's the same from all the fan's in general. The expectation's are high but the effort is in alot of cases invisible and that is simply unnacceptable.
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Post by habwest on Nov 1, 2002 2:34:00 GMT -5
9 games into the season and for many the world appears to be coming to an end. Problems there may be but I'm still laying back to see how serious they will prove to be in the long run.
The biggest on my list is MT- no system, or if there is one he can't seem to get the players to buy into it. But I'm still willing to bet he's going to be around for quite a while yet. Savard has shown himself to be conservative in making moves and he won't make a move with the coach this year unless he's really forced into it. I'm still of the opinion that MT isn't the guy AS really wants, he's just a filler he might have had trouble dumping and whose team did achieve some remarkable things last year. A come down was almost predictable and who better to take the blame for it than MT. No point in going through all the aggravation of firing MT only to see his chosen successor end up in the same situation. If you think there's heat on AS now, imagine what it would be if he'd fired MT and brought in someone else and we still had the same record, especially if that guy had not been a francophone.
I guess a lot goes back to expectations. I never expected too much so the current situation doesn't surprise me. The thing that does concern me, in addition to the coaching, is the lack of size and robustness. If AS calculated that the new rules enforcement would obviate the need for this he may have been wrong. Things may still work out on this but I remain skeptical. I'm firmly in the 'we need a big center' camp. This mix of players may just not get it done and if this turns out to be the case after a respectable amount of time then AS should address the problem if and when he can. And in saying this I would keep in mind that this is a whole lot easier said than done and may take a while to pull off.
As to the players whining and complaining, well that will happen when you have all that depth and things aren't going as well as they might. MT did seem to get Czekawski's attention. Maybe he'll get Audette's too. Even Gilmour's. Of course Gilmour could always retire if he doesn't get it going or remains unhappy. Whatever, it's clear we need Juneau's checking line so it's gonna be a tough puzzle to solve for any coach, let alone MT. Remember, some pretty good coaches have been fired because of complaining, under performing, players so I don't necessarily think that this is a good yardstick to use.
Just my 2 cents. Remember, there is life after hockey. Cheers.
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Post by UberCranky on Nov 1, 2002 8:09:57 GMT -5
9 The biggest on my list is MT- no system, or if there is one he can't seem to get the players to buy into it. But I'm still willing to bet he's going to be around for quite a while yet. Savard has shown himself to be conservative in making moves and he won't make a move with the coach this year unless he's really forced into it. I'm still of the opinion that MT isn't the guy AS really wants, he's just a filler he might have had trouble dumping and whose team did achieve some remarkable things last year. A come down was almost predictable and who better to take the blame for it than MT. No point in going through all the aggravation of firing MT only to see his chosen successor end up in the same situation. If you think there's heat on AS now, imagine what it would be if he'd fired MT and brought in someone else and we still had the same record, especially if that guy had not been a francophone. Gee, you kinda saying the same thing I am. Although I use stronger language then "conservative". I actually question his resolve and then go to confession to wash away my sinfull ways. Let's try a sinopsis format here and try to see the logic. MThead is not doing well. MThead reports to Savard. Savard has to take action is MThead is not doing. It's Savards’ responsibility to take action. Savard has not taken any action. By not taking action then he shoulders responsibility for things not going well. Seems simple to me. Why do people want to separate the two? Repeat, the buck stops on Savard’s desk. BTW, whad'ya mean there is more to life then hockey? Huh?
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Post by habwest on Nov 2, 2002 10:14:12 GMT -5
Well HA old confrere, when this all gets to be too much, just go do something else. Forget about hockey for a few days, don't watch the games. I missed the game last night but I see that they came back to tie and that Theo, although he looked sloppy on one goal (I saw the highlights), overall seemed to play pretty well (or so I gather from the talking heads' comments). Positive signs tho the shots against are still ridiculous. So here the team sits at 500. Could have been better, could have been a lot worse. It's early in the season, relax, chill, go have a cool one. This may still get turned around. It wouldn't surprise me, Therrien's done it before, somehow, I don't know how, but he's done it. Time to go take my computer in for some fixin'. Cheers.
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Post by UberCranky on Nov 2, 2002 11:51:58 GMT -5
Well HA old confrere, when this all gets to be too much, just go do something else. Forget about hockey for a few days, don't watch the games. I missed the game last night but I see that they came back to tie and that Theo, although he looked sloppy on one goal (I saw the highlights), overall seemed to play pretty well (or so I gather from the talking heads' comments). Positive signs tho the shots against are still ridiculous. So here the team sits at 500. Could have been better, could have been a lot worse. It's early in the season, relax, chill, go have a cool one. This may still get turned around. It wouldn't surprise me, Therrien's done it before, somehow, I don't know how, but he's done it. Time to go take my computer in for some fixin'. Cheers. Well….NO. What am I going to do in life other then fret about the Hab’s? Huh? Go on a Medieval Crusade? I don’t ride horses and I heard that one got his brains cooked inside on of those helmets. Mind you, I've taken to wearing pots on my head since you told me about the CIA hitting you with microwaves. Become a Hari Krishna? Sheesh. Imagine a gorilla in a white dress and a donkey of a voice? I could set back that “relegion” a thousand years. Mind you, BadCompany tells me that he got “lucky” many times while passing out flowers. You mean you guys didn't know that BC is a Habby Krishna? What about a “save the pigs”? “Free the pigs”? Hell, I rather have them on my breakfast plate. I thought of becoming a Hab’s terrorist. Get a portable branding iron, sit out side the ACC and branding unsuspecting Leaf’lets. No good. They’re already jumping ship faster then flea infested mice on a burning ship. Ya see HW, not much one can do with my illness. I’ll just have to grin and slap MThead. Besides, I feel much better after getting my shipment of Prozac suppositories.
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Post by PTH on Nov 2, 2002 13:03:37 GMT -5
It's early in the season, relax, chill, go have a cool one. This may still get turned around. It wouldn't surprise me, Therrien's done it before, somehow, I don't know how, but he's done it. Time to go take my computer in for some fixin'. Cheers. Excellent point. I know I'm doing better with only the Saturday night games and only the odd weeknight game. I still get a solid hockey fix every week and keep on top of things, but sometimes we need to forget about it all. Also, by not having cable, I'm 1) saving loads of cash. 2) I can whine about player salaries without being hypocritical, since I'm not paying a penny of it. 3) I get more free time to do useful things. Finished 2nd book of Lord of the Rings last night. Go Frodo go :-P
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