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Post by Cranky on Dec 9, 2002 2:14:32 GMT -5
This was a terrible game to assess our prospects because it was so one sided. Do not assume that the Bulldogs where the ’76 Hab’s, rather, it was Cleveland that was that bad. Their goaltending was horrible on this night. It did not help that Cleveland started to play a wide open game, only to be slaughtered by the much faster and more skilled Bulldogs. Hitting was non-existent. This was a “Euro” style game where most of the forwards were stick checking and the defenseman bumped the opposing players.
Komisarek: I am not happy with what I saw on this night. He came out as the third defensive pairing and the second pp unit and I did not like that. Is this bludgeoning hint about his play? He looked tentative on some plays and on way too many times he came back to the bench down on himself. To do this in a game that was so one sided concerns me about his confidence level. The glaring shortcoming of him beaten on the outside did not manifest itself tonight. This has more to do with the quality of the opposition then an improvement of Komi’s play. His reads were better but again, the opponents were much worse then last time. My previous mention of a very hard wrist shot showed up again and two goals resulted from it. The shot did not go by the goaltenders but because it was hard and low, it caused a rebound and was converted easily. No physical presence shown and no hard checks thrown even though he had many opportunities. In fact, he was double “hit” and appeared to be a target on a few occasions.
On this night, he was average in all aspects. In all honesty, I had this feeling that he was playing like “the new kid on the block”. He wants to do his best and play “smart” defense which hinders his naturally aggressive game. You can see him try to think of his options instead of being instinctive. Before people start crying, remember that he is still very young and will be much better in a short while. Short while? Between one to three years. I know it’s hard to quantify this but you can “feel” that there is a lot more to him then what you currently see on the ice. Speed, shot, size and desire will allow him to excell.
As a side note. I saw ex-Hab Matt Carkner play and I think that he should be taken out to the shed and shot. I see a career change in his near future.
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Post by Cranky on Dec 9, 2002 2:14:44 GMT -5
Ryder: First couple of plays and “mule” sprang to mind. The guy puts his head down and heads for the opposing zone. There is very little polish in his game. His success comes from his willingness to go to the net. He is an 80% Ward clone with a little better mobility. Skating is good. Average quickness. Passing is okay.
Ward: All his success comes from driving to the net. In fact, he seams to have made standing in front of the net as some kind of home away from home. Is he NHL ready? I am not sure. The time and space that he has at the AHL level does not mean he can translate it in to the NHL level. He can fight off and not get hurt from what are number 8th and 9th NHL depth defencman but will he be able to stand up to a Quintal type player? And Quintal is far from the most abusive and nasty NHL defensman. Often, Ward has two cracks at a rebound and still stand up in the AHL, he may not get more then one and even that one may be with a defensman on his back.
Hossa: A “Euro” game all night. Some bumping but nothing that would damage any hard boil eggs. Very smooth and fast skater but someone better tell him that he is not going to be able to take that soft “Euro” game to the NHL and succed. Yes, he can skate, shoot and pass at the NHL level but do we want another perimeter player? He needs to add grit and “keep away” to his game.
Plakenack: Smart player but his size is a problem. Very good skater. Very good passer. He and Hossa showed some blistering transition game but anything positive out of that was overlaid with a their soft forechecking.
Gratton: His size and from his current level of development, he is an AHLer lifer in the making. He may be getting goals and assists but he is also knocked on his butt and gets wiped out fairly easily because of his size. His skating and balance are very good and he is fairly quick but his size is a hindrance. So far, his success is coming from a lot of hard work but it means nothing in the NHL. He does not have any special tools in his belt to give him an edge for NHL success and overcome his physical limitations.
Please remember that I am always comparing the players to the NHL level. The AHL is a development league and sometimes even the most successful AHL players get nowhere in their NHL careers. My best guess is that the AHL is 50% level of the NHL. If a player has an average set of skills and plays well in the AHL level then he is likely to be there forever. If one has many NHL level tools and has no polish to his game or has a glaring fault, then he can hone his skill and/or be taught at the AHL level. That’s what’s expected by the Hab’s and that’s why Landry, Carkner and the rest of the AHL lifers where released. That is also the reason that O'Dette, Boullion and others are a healthy sratch. There is no future for them in the NHL. To me, winning every game, even by 15 goals or winning a division does not mean anything. Developing 2 or 3 players a year for the parent club is what counts.
By no means do my opinions define a career. It is only a snapshot of their play and their short term "trend". I am also very critical of their game. I am not their mother or their cheering section. I look for flaws that keeps them away from the Hab's. If they score a goal or fifteen, so what. Did they have grit, do they check, rub out players, pass accuratly, skate, fall down, show quickness, stand up after a hit, stand up for their teamate, chew gum while crushing a player, shoot low, shoot hard, telegraph their shot and on and on.............
If you guys have any questions, fire away. Again, don’t look at the score and dream. It means nothing.
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Post by montreal on Dec 9, 2002 3:13:06 GMT -5
My question is about Beauchemin, how was his game ? Thanks for the report, I listened to the game on the net, it I have never heard anything like it. They were breaking team records left and right.  |
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Post by Cranky on Dec 9, 2002 8:32:30 GMT -5
My question is about Beauchemin, how was his game ? Thanks for the report, I listened to the game on the net, it I have never heard anything like it. They were breaking team records left and right. I did not pay any attention to him Montreal. |
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 9, 2002 9:14:32 GMT -5
HA when is the next time you going down to the Copps?
Like you said it's tough to draw conclusions from a mega blowout
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Post by Cranky on Dec 9, 2002 9:32:01 GMT -5
HA when is the next time you going down to the Copps? Like you said it's tough to draw conclusions from a mega blowout At least two more times before the end of the year. Actually Marc, because it is a development league, one can not draw "conclusions" about a player. One can only report what one sees and how it relates to the NHL level. When I saw Ward a couple of years ago, I saw a player heading for a hot dog vending career. Since then he has improvesd on his skating and has shown a lot more determination to take abuse and crash the net. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Dec 9, 2002 17:15:59 GMT -5
Nice observations on Ward.
People just look at the stat sheet and say "Ward is tearing up the AHL, put him in a Habs uniform." The obvious question, which you answered, is "HOW" is he tearing up the AHL. If you said with speed, quickness, puck control, a big shot, and good instincts, I would be on the Ward bandwagon too. But when you say he parks himself in front of the net and gets 2 whacks at a rebound against smaller/weaker Dmen, then i'm less enthusiastic.
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Post by BadCompany on Dec 9, 2002 19:56:31 GMT -5
Nice observations on Ward. People just look at the stat sheet and say "Ward is tearing up the AHL, put him in a Habs uniform." The obvious question, which you answered, is "HOW" is he tearing up the AHL. If you said with speed, quickness, puck control, a big shot, and good instincts, I would be on the Ward bandwagon too. But when you say he parks himself in front of the net and gets 2 whacks at a rebound against smaller/weaker Dmen, then i'm less enthusiastic. Well, that's true, a first hand look is always much better than mere stats. But you also have to consider the "team" concept, in that not everybody can be the speedy, quick, puck control, "skill" player. We are seeing that with our current team. Sometimes, (always, really) you need guys like Lindsay, McKay, Stevenson, even Kilger. They aren't going to be pretty out there, but hockey isn't always a pretty game. If nobody stands in front of the net, then, well, we see the results of that with our current team... I am a big proponent of the "role" philosophy when it comes to building a team. Every position, be it 1st line center, or 4th line RW, has a certain role. The question you have to ask yourself, as a coach, or a GM, is "do the players I have fit those roles, and if not, do I have better ones who fit that role available to me?" Who would make a better 4th line RW? Mariusz Czerkawski, Jason Ward, or Oleg Petrov? How about 4th line center? Chad Kilger, Bill Lindsay, Mike Ribeiro or Benoit Gratton? There are no "right" answers, it all depends on what you want your team to look like. If you want your 4th line to be a dangerous offensive line, then you go with Riberio, Czerkawski and Petrov. If you want it to be a goon line, you go with Blouin, Lindsay, and whoever. If you want an energy, in-your-face, antagonizing line, then I would go with Gratton, Ward and Lindsay. Ward isn't going to light up the NHL, if he ever makes it. But that doesn't mean his style of play can't be useful. |
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Post by sonnytheman on Dec 9, 2002 20:34:30 GMT -5
hey HA, would you call Ward a crash-and-bang type player? I saw him on tv once and he didn't really hit all that much, though one or two of them were noticeable. Is he a good corner guy? I feel that these are the areas the Canadiens are really lacking. Notice how they get 3 outta 4 points in a game where they have 2 fights each (i know, i know, most likely a coincidence, but still)
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Post by Cranky on Dec 9, 2002 20:54:12 GMT -5
hey HA, would you call Ward a crash-and-bang type player? I saw him on tv once and he didn't really hit all that much, though one or two of them were noticeable. Is he a good corner guy? I feel that these are the areas the Canadiens are really lacking. Notice how they get 3 outta 4 points in a game where they have 2 fights each (i know, i know, most likely a coincidence, but still) How about "crash and shove"? He does not have the speed nor the balance to be a big hitter without taking himself out of position. If you look at people like Koivu and Forsberg, they can hit people and get back into play because of their great balance and quickness. Same thing goes when fighting for possession. Ward has to practically fall on them to take them out. He is successful because he works very hard and absorbs the pain. Not because he has some “elite” skills. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 9, 2002 21:00:26 GMT -5
I think Ward might still be with the club had he not had that horrendous facial injury a few years back. I think he was blindsided by a puck that cut him for quite a few stitches.
He was playing regularly that year and never got the chance to get back into the lineup.
Anyway, I was one of those who said that if Ward, or any other player for that matter, didn't make the roster it was because he was probably outplayed.
However, he never did lose his support from many here on the board. And now he's making noise again.
Cheers.
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Post by seventeen on Dec 9, 2002 21:11:56 GMT -5
In a silly game like that one, you can toss out any 'impressions' of most players (unless they're like Gretzky, who relished capping his hat trick into an empty net) because there's just no joy in it. There's no challenge. Throw the puck at the net and it goes in (I heard reports that suggested just that of last night's game). The only point at all that you made was concerning Komisarek. And it suggests that the way the Habs handle young players flows through the whole organization, not just the big team.
My feeling on developing people is to let them show their strengths first, develop confidence, put up with the mistakes they will make on the weaker parts of their game. I'd be playing Komi on at least the first 2 defense pairings...I'd be giving him lots of ice time....lots. He's the premier prospect in the system (if you exclude Hainsey who shouldn't be a prospect by now) and he should be playing to death. Instead our coaches seem to want to desperately correct flaws first. Wouldn't you rather see Komi crushing a few people, taking himself way out of position to make a mark (in the boards or an opposing forward). I wouldn't want him going berserk, but I'd encourage him to give a good hit when he has the chance and let his teammates take care of any open ice. Then tone him back slowly from that 'pushed envelope'. It was disturbing to hear that your impression is still lack of confidence. Where have we seen that before? In only every young guy who gets the rare opportunity with the team. These guys need to take some behavourial psychology courses.
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Post by MPLABBE on Dec 9, 2002 21:17:14 GMT -5
17 that is what is happening. Komisarek has been a top 4 guy for them
Who knows maybe in a blowout, 3rd game in 3 nights, Julien was just playing EVERYONE and giving a 20 year old who has never played so many games at such a high level in so little time a little break? uh?
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Post by seventeen on Dec 9, 2002 22:45:07 GMT -5
Could be Marc. I just assumed he had been the 6th defenseman in other games too. My mistake. That type of game is great to give your lesser lights lots of ice time, which means playing your go to guys less. Rats, why couldn't it have been a close 4-3 game so we'd get a better idea of their development?
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Post by montreal on Dec 10, 2002 1:58:40 GMT -5
17 that is what is happening. Komisarek has been a top 4 guy for them Who knows maybe in a blowout, 3rd game in 3 nights, Julien was just playing EVERYONE and giving a 20 year old who has never played so many games at such a high level in so little time a little break? uh? Well that would be my take on it exactly, since Hossa and Pleks didn't get the PP icetime later in the game, when before they have been getting a lot of PP along with Komi/Hainsey. Hossa has been on fire lately, so if the score were not resembling a tennis score and more of a typical hockey score, the Hossa Plekanec Ryder line with Komi on point would have gotten more PP time. Last I checked Hossa is 3rd on the team in scoring, and he already has 12 goals, where he had 17 all of last year. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Dec 10, 2002 10:08:43 GMT -5
Well, that's true, a first hand look is always much better than mere stats. But you also have to consider the "team" concept, in that not everybody can be the speedy, quick, puck control, "skill" player. We are seeing that with our current team. Sometimes, (always, really) you need guys like Lindsay, McKay, Stevenson, even Kilger. They aren't going to be pretty out there, but hockey isn't always a pretty game. If nobody stands in front of the net, then, well, we see the results of that with our current team... I am a big proponent of the "role" philosophy when it comes to building a team. Every position, be it 1st line center, or 4th line RW, has a certain role. The question you have to ask yourself, as a coach, or a GM, is "do the players I have fit those roles, and if not, do I have better ones who fit that role available to me?" Who would make a better 4th line RW? Mariusz Czerkawski, Jason Ward, or Oleg Petrov? How about 4th line center? Chad Kilger, Bill Lindsay, Mike Ribeiro or Benoit Gratton? There are no "right" answers, it all depends on what you want your team to look like. If you want your 4th line to be a dangerous offensive line, then you go with Riberio, Czerkawski and Petrov. If you want it to be a goon line, you go with Blouin, Lindsay, and whoever. If you want an energy, in-your-face, antagonizing line, then I would go with Gratton, Ward and Lindsay. Ward isn't going to light up the NHL, if he ever makes it. But that doesn't mean his style of play can't be useful. Absolutely true, BC. Each line pairing needs to be well thought out with a good balance, and not just a ranking of your top 12 forwards. Over the past month in Boston, Joe Thornton and Glen Murray have been playing on the 1st line with Mike Knuble (!) and he doesn't look out of place at all! He doesn't score, but he can skate OK and works his butt off. That's why putting Chad Kilger with Koivu and Zednik could work wonders. Chad won't score but if he can create a bit more space in the O-zone for Koivu to operate then that's a good line. My comments on Ward were more in hoping that he could be our version of Erik Cole (that was a long post last year as well; not as long as Chris Dyment); that hopefully the kid was finally putting together all the attributes we "thought/hoped" he had when he was drafted #7 overall as a budding power forward. But it seems that his skating/balance is still below average, and most of his goals are of the "gargage" variety. He could still make it to the NHL as a 4th line banger, but sadly, nothing more than that. |
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Post by Cranky on Dec 10, 2002 18:44:33 GMT -5
He could still make it to the NHL as a 4th line banger, but sadly, nothing more than that. BH, maybe there is more to Ward in the future. Certainly he has improved his skatinplus he is willing to mix it up. As far as "power forwrd"? That is a far stretch from what I see. I would be thrilled if he became 70% version of Andrychuck. If I was coaching the Bulldogs and the game was on the line, Ward would be my go-to guy. The question is how does this translate to the NHL? Is there another gear hidden in there and is there more grit and determination beyond what he shows? Certainly, he measures well against AHL defenseman and is able to fight for the puck and win. But how would he match up against stonehead Wade Belak? If he could skate like Balez or Hossa, or at least as well balanced as Koivu or Zednic, plus his grit and determination, then he would be our second liner already. There is a reason Savard told him that he would not be called up. Basically, he does not see Ward as the type of player he wants to build around. Savards idea is a team is full of Marion Hossa's and Koivu's. |
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