Gigantic undersea earthquake

[mic]

I just wanted to express my sympathy for those whose lives have been devasted by the recent earthquake and the following tsunamis in South Asia. This is a very sad tragedy.

[blaise]

The most catastrophic single day the world has seen since the A-bombing of Nagasaki in August 1945.

I'm still waiting for George W. Values to express his compassion in person and to pledge massive aid to the stricken areas. Didn't Jesus inform him it was the right thing to do?

[franko]

Blaise said:

I'm still waiting for George W. Values to express his compassion in person and to pledge massive aid to the stricken areas.

The USA pledges 15 Million (a pittance).
The European Union pledges 4 Million (to help one of their prime vacation spots).
Compassionate Canada pledges help if it is requested (it may not be -- they might be OK on their own, I guess).

[MC Habber]

franko said:

The USA pledges 15 Million (a pittance).
The European Union pledges 4 Million (to help one of their prime vacation spots).
Compassionate Canada pledges help if it is requested (it may not be -- they might be OK on their own, I guess).

Canada also pledged $1 million. Keep in mind that these are all *initial* donations. There will likely be more to come. Hopefully it will come soon and be a lot more substantial.

[mic]

franko said:

The USA pledges 15 Million (a pittance).
The European Union pledges 4 Million (to help one of their prime vacation spots).
Compassionate Canada pledges help if it is requested (it may not be -- they might be OK on their own, I guess).

Well, that wasn't this thread's purpose, but you could have said that if the European Union gives 4m, every single european country will also give money. France has promised over 22 million euros, Great Britain 21 million euro, etc. By the way, according to TF1 (news.tf1.fr/news/monde/0,,3193954,00.html), the EU has increased the spending to 20 million euro (the USA increasing it to 35 million).

However, this isn't a "who gives the most" contest - even if it could indeed become a PR contest. I just hope the international community will be effecient enough to help those people.

[franko]

MC said:

Canada also pledged $1 million. Keep in mind that these are all *initial* donations. There will likely be more to come. Hopefully it will come soon and be a lot more substantial.

Agree with the hope of a more sustatial amount. I'm just ticked off about initial reports that the nation of Canada would respond as soon as there was a request (the people of Canada responded almost immediately).

mic said:

Well, that wasn't this thread's purpose, but you could have said that if the European Union gives 4m, every single european country will also give money. France has promised over 22 million euros, Great Britain 21 million euro, etc. By the way, according to TF1 (news.tf1.fr/news/monde/0,,3193954,00.html), the EU has increased the spending to 20 million euro (the USA increasing it to 35 million).

However, this isn't a "who gives the most" contest - even if it could indeed become a PR contest. I just hope the international community will be effecient enough to help those people.

I was just responding the the continuing anti-Bush rant that seems to be making its way into every thread. Response from individual countries has been slow in coming . . . and if it does become a PR game, who cares . . . as long as the money gets to where it is promised. No, let me rephrasae that: as long as the money gets to where it need to be and isn't held up by bureaucratic stumbling and thievery. And as long as the UN actually send the money! (I'm a little annoyed that something that is supposedly so good has its own scandals).

[franko]

And the ante has been upped: Canada pledges 40M to US 35M

Blaise said:

I'm still waiting for George W. Values to express his compassion in person and to pledge massive aid to the stricken areas.

Yes, the ball is once again in his court, if there is a competition . . . and even if there is not.

Rhetoric from some far-right wingers in the US: Why should we give massive amounts of aid there when they didn't send a penny to us when we faced the devastation from all those hurricanes? Why indeed? How about . . . because it is the right thing to do (not the left thing to do). And because 100,000 Floridians didn't die from these tragedies in the past few years (wonder if that would have made a difference in the election).

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Posting from Ottawa.

Absolutely terrible situation. It's possible this disaster may claim as many as 100,000 lives. I believe Canada has now offered $40 million in aid.

cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2004/12/29/801170-cp.html

While the military Disaster Assistance Reponse Team (DART) has not yet been activated, they can provide some very necessary services. They have water purification units that can produce drinkable water from mud. They also have some communications specialists that can re-establish communications infrastructures if necessary. However, as a former member of the team, I remember that the host countries have to agree to have the team in their country. No doubt this is one of the reasons why they haven't deployed as yet.

And while the Canadian DART is relatively small, there are other countries that have similar teams. That's a pretty significant contribution if these countries were to do their part as well.

Cheers.

[MC Habber]

franko said:

Rhetoric from some far-right wingers in the US: Why should we give massive amounts of aid there when they didn't send a penny to us when we faced the devastation from all those hurricanes? Why indeed? How about . . . because it is the right thing to do (not the left thing to do). And because 100,000 Floridians didn't die from these tragedies in the past few years (wonder if that would have made a difference in the election).

Apparently the elephant has already forgotten the international response to September 11.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

The reconnaissance team for the DART has just deployed. They will determine whether or not the entire 200-person team will deploy. Unless it has changed, the recce team normally has one representative from each service; communcations (my old job), engineers, medical, etc.

www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/OttawaSun/News/2004/12/30/801446-sun.html

I can't see how the team cannot deploy in its entirty. 200 may not seem like a lot when compared to the disaster, but if many countries were to contribute just a small amount it would make a huge difference.

Cheers.

[franko]

MC said:

Apparently the elephant has already forgotten the international response to September 11.

The elephant probably blames the international community on September 11.

[blaise]

What pissed me off most about the US response, even more than the paltry $15M first announced, was the sluggish, unspontaneous reaction of the self-styled compassionate president. The tsunami hit on Christmas Day (Asian time) but it took until Dec. 29 for the Texan lightweight to say something meaningful--no doubt prompted by his P.R.-conscious aides who had picked up the world's negative sentiment. If I had been in his position I would have made a public statement on Dec. 26 without promising any specific amount but I would have emphasized that the US had every intention of making a significant contribution in money and that personnel and supplies would be speedily deployed.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Blaise said:

What pissed me off most about the US response, even more than the paltry $15M first announced, was the sluggish, unspontaneous reaction of the self-styled compassionate president. The tsunami hit on Christmas Day (Asian time) but it took until Dec. 29 for the Texan lightweight to say something meaningful--no doubt prompted by his P.R.-conscious aides who had picked up the world's negative sentiment. If I had been in his position I would have made a public statement on Dec. 26 without promising any specific amount but I would have emphasized that the US had every intention of making a significant contribution in money and that personnel and supplies would be speedily deployed.

CNN is only now reporting the same concerns you're citing, Blaise.

As much as I'm leary of our own PM, Mr. Martin is reportedly cutting his own vacation short and returning to Canada in lieu of the disaster. Most of what Canada can provide is already in motion, so to me, the PM's actions are indicative of support. I believe I just heard CNN report that Bush is back on his ranch.

BTW, there are aftershocks now being reported in India.

Cheers.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

Pledge millions of dollars?
Whatever Dubya does, the criticism will be "too little, too late" from the ungrateful.
If he pulls out of Iraq, it's too late, he shouldn't have gone there in the first place.
If the economy rebounds, he was responsible for it's initial demise.
Is it any wonder that he doesn't listen closely to the criticism?
Undoubtedly "W the infadel" will be blamed by Al-jazzera for testing weapons that caused the earthquake in the first place.
You can't support Right to Life and a womans rights and expect either side to agree with you.
The difference between doing and sitting back and criticizing is huge.

[blaise]

Habs_fan_in_LA said:

Pledge millions of dollars?
Whatever Dubya does, the criticism will be "too little, too late" from the ungrateful.
If he pulls out of Iraq, it's too late, he shouldn't have gone there in the first place.
If the economy rebounds, he was responsible for it's initial demise.
Is it any wonder that he doesn't listen closely to the criticism?
Undoubtedly "W the infadel" will be blamed by Al-jazzera for testing weapons that caused the earthquake in the first place.
You can't support Right to Life and a womans rights and expect either side to agree with you.
The difference between doing and sitting back and criticizing is huge.

Damn right too little, too late. As of Dec. 31 Colin Powell say the US will increase the ante to $350M. That's a lot more respectable, but Bush had to be shamed into it. The US contributes less per capita in nonmilitary foreign aid than many other industrialized countries. This administration is so rigid and programed that it doesn't know how to react to unexpected developments.

The world doesn't say the US should pull out of Iraq immediately because that would result in chaos. Bush has got the tiger by the tail and dare not release it. Where he went abysmally wrong was in invading Iraq in the first place. Unfortunately, Kerry was foolish enough initially to lend halfhearted support that put him in a dilemma later on. Howard Dean was right on that issue: the invasion was 1) unnecessary and 2) a horrible mistake. Now over 50% of the American people agree it was a mistake. They don't have the stomach for the casualties, American and Iraqi. And if the Jan. 30 election goes badly there will be a drumbeat of demands that the US cut and run.

Yes, Dubbya is screwing up the country.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Well, a lot of countries are contributing now and that includes military services as well.

www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/01/02/tsunami-japan050102.html


Military tsunami relief effort grows
Last Updated Sun, 02 Jan 2005 10:07:20 EST

"TOKYO - A huge military buildup continues in Indonesia's devastated Aceh province, as nations around the world send ships and aircraft to help deliver aid to the tens of thousands still without food.

Japan's military is gearing up to transport relief goods to tsunami survivors in southern Asia in a joint operation with U.S. forces, Kyodo news reported on Sunday.

The mission will include ground, maritime and air self-defence force teams, according to government sources quoted by the agency. "

In addition to $500 million in aid, Japan is also providing much, much more.

Also, you'll notice the USA has provided an aircraft carrier that is resupplying those who are still stranded from civilization.

The Canadian DART recce party is no in Sri Lanka assessing the mission they have been tasked with. The main problem the DART has always had is logistics. During their last mission in Turkey, it took 35, or so, C-130 Hercules flights to get the equipment for the 200-person contingent completely in theatre. Granted, the DART has pared down its equipment list, but to give you an idea, the last few flights that made it into Turkey actually returned with kit in preparation for the redeployment.

An evaluation was completed and it was determined that the entire DART could get itself into theatre by using two Antonovs. To give you an idea just how large this aircraft is, I've been told by Canadian ground crews that you could fly a C-130 between the rear stabilizers of the Antonov and the wings wouldn't touch. The problem, though, is that there are only a specific number of pilots qualified to fly them and they are constantly employed.

However, this is what the Australians are now using in support of their relief efforts. If I read my article correctly I have to assume the Aussies purchased their own Antonov, AN-225 (or several as one wouldn't be enough).

members.lycos.co.uk/aerospace21/antonov/an-225.html

And, guys, our PM is taking flack over his lackidasical concern over this as well.

However, all this aside, it's good to see a lot of countries taking an interest in this situation nonetheless.

Cheers.

[MC Habber]

Government reacts in slow motion

RICK ANDERSON

Totally inadequate. There is no other way to describe the Canadian government's response to the disaster now befalling 5 million Asian people. Sure, there are explanations for our government's passivity, parsimony, its stuck-in-study mode. These are called excuses.

A distinction must quickly be made between the response of the Canadian people, who are responding with quiet and deep generosity. Individually, Canadians are right in there with the world's leaders, donating in what relief officials are calling "unprecedented" volume. Ditto for private companies and many municipal and provincial governments.

But not our national government.

- full article

[franko]

MC said:

Government reacts in slow motion

Unfortunately, this appears typical of our national government for the last number of years: do nothing, do nothing, do nothing . . . and then either have your lack of decision be found a good one by default, or get piled on (in this instance) for being so slow. I'd much rather have our leaders make a decision -- even if it turns out to be the wrong one -- than to be found weak and ineffective and letting decisions be made for you because it is too late to do anything else.

[MC Habber]

The said:

Unfortunately, this appears typical of our national government for the last number of years: do nothing, do nothing, do nothing

That's how they stay in power - by doing nothing, they don't do anything which might upset people.

[blaise]

While all this was happening George W. Bush was enjoying one of his many vacations on his Texas ranch. He indulges himself. He takes a lot of vacation time, in fact something like 27% of his first presidential term. That doesn't include weekends off. It's more fun than dealing with a crisis or answering tough media questions about Iraq. At his press conferences he calls on the representatives who throw softballs and ducks the Randy Johnsons.

Make no mistake, this is not a compassionate man. He squeezes the poor in his own country evermore. Instead of comforting the afflicted he afflicts the downtrodden but comforts the already comfortable.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

I certainly don't want to take away from the thread line, these people need international assistance in a big way. But my concern for the Canadian military is how much will this deployment of the DART (if they actually do go) affect the military budget? Whenever the feds need monies to finance something else the military budget is usually one of the first targeted for funds. A full-blown DART deployment could cost upwards of $200 million. The military budget is low as it is and this deployment, albeit necessary, could affect other operations and commitments.

Cheers.

[franko]

Blaise said:

While all this was happening George W. Bush was enjoying one of his many vacations on his Texas ranch. He indulges himself. He takes a lot of vacation time, in fact something like 27% of his first presidential term. That doesn't include weekends off. It's more fun than dealing with a crisis or answering tough media questions about Iraq. At his press conferences he calls on the representatives who throw softballs and ducks the Randy Johnsons.

Make no mistake, this is not a compassionate man. He squeezes the poor in his own country evermore. Instead of comforting the afflicted he afflicts the downtrodden but comforts the already comfortable.

While you are rebuking Mr. Bush don't neglect our own leader, who had to be shamed into cutting his vacation short.

Both of them . . . disgraceful . . . response time and assistance offered.

[franko]

Disgruntled70sHab said:

I certainly don't want to take away from the thread line, these people need international assistance in a big way. But my concern for the Canadian military is how much will this deployment of the DART (if they actually do go) affect the military budget? Whenever the feds need monies to finance something else the military budget is usually one of the first targeted for funds. A full-blown DART deployment could cost upwards of $200 million. The military budget is low as it is and this deployment, albeit necessary, could affect other operations and commitments.

Cheers.

We have a military? I thought that it been slowly and painfully decommissioned over the past 10 plus years by a government that was more interested in golf courses and advertising budgets.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

Blaise said:

While all this was happening George W. Bush was enjoying one of his many vacations on his Texas ranch. He indulges himself. He takes a lot of vacation time, in fact something like 27% of his first presidential term. That doesn't include weekends off. It's more fun than dealing with a crisis or answering tough media questions about Iraq. At his press conferences he calls on the representatives who throw softballs and ducks the Randy Johnsons.

Make no mistake, this is not a compassionate man. He squeezes the poor in his own country evermore. Instead of comforting the afflicted he afflicts the downtrodden but comforts the already comfortable.

I am always amazed to see the ageing of Presidents. If you look at Clinton at the start of his term vs the much older more tired man at the end, the difference is incredible. I can think of no job that is more grueling. The public appearances, faux meetings with supercillious world leaders from Sierra Leon and Luxembourg, constant on-call, more flights than a 747 pilot. Yes he takes vacations, more than most Presidents did, more than I do, but he's earned them.

[blaise]

You've got it reversed. Bush is the supercilious one. He never admits he's wrong. He doesn't take criticism. And how does he earn his vacation? With his short working days and weekend shutdowns? For getting the US into this bloody war in Iraq he should serve at least as much time in the pen as Martha Stewart and take Dick Cheney with him as a cellmate.

[franko]

Been thinking (I know, an amazing thing): what would have happened if Bush (or Martin) had stopped what they were doing and hpped a plane to see the devastation, then offer the levels of assistence they eventually did. Reaction? Publicity-seeking hacks -- they should stay out of the way and let the professionals get to work, I imagine.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

The said:

Been thinking (I know, an amazing thing): what would have happened if Bush (or Martin) had stopped what they were doing and hpped a plane to see the devastation, then offer the levels of assistence they eventually did. Reaction? Publicity-seeking hacks -- they should stay out of the way and let the professionals get to work, I imagine.

Seek and ye shall find!
You are exactly right. There are those (Jon Stewart cough cough) who make a living finding fault with everything he does. It's like the sportscasters who say Gretzky wasn't a good fighter or bodychecker.

[blaise]

Bush donated $10K out of a personal fortune of $13M. His generosity slays me. My personal contribution came in at a much higher percentage. Bush donated exactly 1% of what Sandra Bullock did. The nonspecific comment about stinginess by Jan Egeland of the UN really shook the change out of his pocket, didn't it?

By now the US ranks fourth in governmental contributions. In terms of either per capita or percentage of gross national product, the US falls embarrassingly behind Australia, Norway, Sweden, Canada, and several other nations.

Bush trumpets the generous donations of American citizens? On a per capita basis, Brits, Germans, Australians, Canadians, Swedes, and Norwegians are way ahead.

One would surmise that I have a low opinion of Bush. No wonder, considering that he damns himself nearly every time he speaks or acts or fails to speak or act.

[blaise]

The said:

While you are rebuking Mr. Bush don't neglect our own leader, who had to be shamed into cutting his vacation short.

Both of them . . . disgraceful . . . response time and assistance offered.

True, but Bush is positioned as Leader of the Free World, so his transgressions are magnified. And Canada has anted $2.06 per person compared with $1.19.

[franko]

A thought on aid (I hate the term foreign aid):

Clearly, the US is the star player when it comes to foreign aid. According to 2003 figures released by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), the United States government budgeted nearly $16 billion to foreign aid. That is nearly double what the next largest contributor—Japan—earmarked for such causes ($8.9 billion), and four times what Canada budgeted ($2.2 billion). So, taken on a raw dollar level, Powell and Bush's claims cannot be disputed. When it comes to disaster relief and economic development, the United States is the undeniable leader. And remember, these figures do not even include the billions of dollars given by individual citizens through private charities and foundations.

But the dollar figures begin to lose some of their dazzle when you examine foreign aid spending as a percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP). This brings us closer to what [Jan] Egeland [the UN's Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator] was trying to get at [by calling the western world's response stingy]. When rated according to this criterion, the United States plunges to number 22 on the list, contributing just 0.14 percent of its GDP to foreign aid. Japan doesn't do much better at 0.2 percent (placing it at number 19), and even Canada's 0.26 percent contribution fails to place it in the top ten (they're ranked at number 13). Leading the pack is Norway (Egeland's home country), which contributes 0.92 percent of its GDP to foreign aid. Still shy of a single percentage point, but, proportionally speaking, well over six times what the United States gives. If the American government decided to match the Norwegians next year, their foreign aid giving would leap to over $100 billion—about half of what it is costing them to fight the war in Iraq. And if all of the 22 richest nations in the world gave just one percent—never mind the ten percent Egeland suggested they give when he appeared recently on CNN's Anderson Cooper 360°—the globe would literally be awash in foreign aid dollars. In fact, there may even be a surplus!

the whole article, which asks "Are We Really Stingy? (Are You?)"