Israel

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

by Philip Greenspun in February 2003

This article is intended for people who've grown weary and confused after exposure to the relentless media coverage of the conflict in and around Israel, often referred to as a "crisis". The questions to be answered include the following:

Why does the United States support the State of Israel?
Why do Arabs reject the State of Israel? (sub-question: "Are Arab Leaders Crazy?")
Why do Muslims hate Jews?
Why do Muslims hate the United States?
Why are the governments of the Middle East so unstable?
Why are the Palestinians so violent?
How have the Israelis survived for so long?
Is there really a crisis?
What can we, as average American citizens, do?

For answers we look back at history and at original sources where possible.



- philip.greenspun.com/politics/israel/

[HabbaDasher]

Some interesting points.
The conflict makes a bit more 'sense' now.
But it paints Isreal as a completely blameless victim, unless I missed something.
And the explanation for USA's support seems a bit incredible.
Fear of immigration?
Hmmm....I dunno....

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

While there is a tad of "homerism" in Greenspun's essay I find it well thought out and very informative. That he avoids a strident or hysterical tone is also a plus, along with the mordant wit he occasionally brings to darker issues.

I have been an admirer of Philip Greenspun for quite some time, and not because of political views. My first encounter with his work came nearly 10 years ago via this groundbreaking, at the time, Web publication - philip.greenspun.com/panda/.

[franko]

Al-Jazeera and Arab Democracy ; Gwynne Dyer

[blaise]

Philip Greenspun is not half as perceptive as M. Beaux-Eaux deems him.

Why does the US support Israel so vigorously? It all comes down to politics, but it's not what Greenspun sees through his Coke bottle lenses. Yes, it's true that most American Jews are fervent supporters of Israel. Yes, they do have political clout in their votes, activism, and donations, but they support Democrats in the main. So why does George W. Bush look the other waywhen Ariel Sharon clamps down on the Palestinians? Why did Richard M. Nixon save Israel's behind in the Yom Kippur War? Why did Ronald Reagan use the Israelis as intermediaries in the Iran-Contra affair? Interestingly, Jimmy Carter was much less warm to Israel.

Simple. The biggest supporters of Israel isn't the diaspora. Instead, it's the Christian Conservative movement in the US, a major base of Bush's constituency. It's not that they see Jews as near-Christians with whom they wish to live side-by-side (many of the Christian conservatives don't even like having Jews as neighbors or members of their country clubs). Their talk about Judeo-Christian values is pure cant. Rather, they see Israel as indispensable to the second coming of Christ. Biblical fulfillment trumps petroleum in their scale of values. So they lean on the Republican politicians.

[HabbaDasher]

franko said:

Al-Jazeera and Arab Democracy ; Gwynne Dyer

I really enjoy Dyer's articles...

[franko]

Blaise said:

Simple. The biggest supporters of Israel isn't the diaspora. Instead, it's the Christian Conservative movement in the US, a major base of Bush's constituency.

Here you go again with the conspiracy of the right. However, the Evangelical Conservative Christian right is nowhere near as large as you give it credence -- only 7%.

It's not that they see Jews as near-Christians with whom they wish to live side-by-side (many of the Christian conservatives don't even like having Jews as neighbors or members of their country clubs)

Again, quite the blanket statement!

Rather, they see Israel as indispensable to the second coming of Christ. Biblical fulfillment trumps petroleum in their scale of values.

That you have right. In fact, Tony Campolo (a well respect Christian leader) asks the question "Are Christians too pro-Israel?". If they are it is because of their end-times Apocalyptic focus.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Blaise said:

Philip Greenspun is not half as perceptive as M. Beaux-Eaux deems him.

Why does the US support Israel so vigorously? It all comes down to politics, but it's not what Greenspun sees through his Coke bottle lenses. Yes, it's true that most American Jews are fervent supporters of Israel. Yes, they do have political clout in their votes, activism, and donations, but they support Democrats in the main. So why does George W. Bush look the other waywhen Ariel Sharon clamps down on the Palestinians? Why did Richard M. Nixon save Israel's behind in the Yom Kippur War? Why did Ronald Reagan use the Israelis as intermediaries in the Iran-Contra affair? Interestingly, Jimmy Carter was much less warm to Israel.

Simple. The biggest supporters of Israel isn't the diaspora. Instead, it's the Christian Conservative movement in the US, a major base of Bush's constituency. It's not that they see Jews as near-Christians with whom they wish to live side-by-side (many of the Christian conservatives don't even like having Jews as neighbors or members of their country clubs). Their talk about Judeo-Christian values is pure cant. Rather, they see Israel as indispensable to the second coming of Christ. Biblical fulfillment trumps petroleum in their scale of values. So they lean on the Republican politicians.

To judge by your comments you have neither read the essay or seen a photograph of Philip Greenspun.

[blaise]

M. said:

To judge by your comments you have neither read the essay or seen a photograph of Philip Greenspun.

You always say that, and it's utterly nonsensical as well as patronizing of you. Of course I have read the essay. If I hadn't I would have ignored it. And you don't know what you're talking about.

This is one example of Greenspun's fatuity. "Israel's primary practical value to the United States is as a place that will accept immigrant Jews, of which the past decades have produced quite a few." That immigration stopped as long time a ago, my friend. And you appear to be unaware of the Jews who have emigrated from Israel because of the intifada and discomfort with the ultraorthodox Jews who wield political clout in the Knesset because of the ridiculous proportional representation system. (If the Israelis had had any sense they would have followed a European model of requiring a minimum percentage of the voters for a seat in the parliament.)

Why is the Jewish population in the US not growing? Think for a moment about the phenomenon of intermarriage. That is where American Jews are disappearing to, not to other countries. Israel is tiny in area and lacks natural resources. It cannot absorb millions of people. It accepts Ethiopian Jews (probably grudgingly) because it feels morally bound to do so, not because they really want them.

Another demographic factor in the low birthrate among educated secular Jews in the US.

The US is experiencing a countervailing growth in precisely the type of Jew that is most difficult for non-Jews to relate to. I'm referring to the chassidim and other ultraorthodox sects who live apart and tend to have large families. I'm sure you've seen a few in Toronto and noted their exotic garb. If this trend continues, the ultraorthodox will greatly outnumber the secular Jews. Ironically, the vast majority of these people are not Zionists. They would not consider going to Israel until the Messiah appears. Fat chance!

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Blaise said:

You always say that, and it's utterly nonsensical...

I don't always say that, I pick my spots, and to judge by the comments in your first post, which was nothing more than a cavalier dismissal of Greenspun's article, attributing thoughts to him which he did not even express, it was hardly nonsensical. You were intent on venting your recent obsession with American right-wing politics, nothing more.

...as well as patronizing of you.

From you I'll take that as a compliment.

Of course I have read the essay.

I'm glad you did decide to read it.

If I hadn't I would have ignored it.

I'll take your word on that.

And you don't know what you're talking about.

Nyah-nyah

This is one example of Greenspun's fatuity. "Israel's primary practical value to the United States is as a place that will accept immigrant Jews, of which the past decades have produced quite a few."

Nothing fatuous there at all. It makes perfect realpolitik sense.

That immigration stopped as long time a ago, my friend.

Try in the last 3 or 4 years. Maybe to you that is a long time ago. To me that is very recent.

According to the Jewish Agency, close to one million Jews immigrated to Israel in the last ten years-80% from the former Soviet Union. In recent years, the numbers of Jewish immigrants has begun to dwindle somewhat:

In 2001, 44,000 Jews immigrated.
In 2002, 35,000 Jews immigrated.
And in 2003, 25,000 Jews returned to their promised land.

- www.cbn.com/CBNNews/CWN/042304israel.asp

Hmmm, 1 million plus Jews immigrated to Israel in the last 10 years. The most recent census shows Israel's Jewish population to be 5.4M. Erring on the side of conservatism that indicates the the nation's Jewish population grew by 18.5% in the decade of the 1990s. Quite the decline, eh.

On Independence Day, May 7, 2003, Israel's population stood at 6.7 million according to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics.

The Jewish population is approximately 5.4 million (counting for 38% of the world's Jews); the non-Jewish population is approximately 1.3 million (82% of these are Muslims, 9% are Christians and 9% are Druze).

- www.israelmybeloved.com/today/population_figures/

And you appear to be unaware of the Jews who have emigrated from Israel because of the intifada and discomfort with the ultraorthodox Jews who wield political clout in the Knesset because of the ridiculous proportional representation system. (If the Israelis had had any sense they would have followed a European model of requiring a minimum percentage of the voters for a seat in the parliament.)

You have no basis upon which to assume a lack of awareness on my part. But if it suits you...

However, while emigration occurs from any country I have yet to hear that it is a great concern for Israel. Indeed, in view of Greenspun's stark view of the nature of the state of Israel, especially in the long term, it's hardly surprising that some Jews might choose to leave.

Taking the long view, the State of Israel is most simply explained as a concentration camp for Jews. Starting in the 1930s the Europeans expropriated the property of their Jews and collected the physical bodies of those Jews in camps where they could be worked to death--the Nazis did not put healthy Jews into gas chambers until they had become exhausted by slave labor. In the 1940s and 1950s the remaining Jews of Central Europe were by and large sent to Israel while at the same time Arab nations expropriated the wealth of their 1000- and 2000-year-old Jewish communities and sent the physical bodies of the Jews to Israel (except for some thousands who were killed by mobs). In the last decades of the 20th century the former Soviet Union began to export its Jewish population, though without the violence and confiscation that had accompanied Jewish migrations from Europe and Arab nations.

Historically most concentration camps for Jews have eventually turned into death camps and certainly there is no shortage of people worldwide trying to effect this transformation.

- philip.greenspun.com/politics/israel/

Why is the Jewish population in the US not growing?

Because they are moving to Israel in record numbers. ;D

Dec 15, 2004 7:18 am US/Eastern

JERUSALEM, Israel (CBS) After years of stagnation, American Jewish immigration to Israel is on the rise again, with the number of people arriving this year expected to approach a 20-year-high, immigration officials said Tuesday.

- cbsnewyork.com/mideast/mideast_story_350072112.html

Think for a moment about the phenomenon of intermarriage. That is where American Jews are disappearing to, not to other countries.

OK.

Time's up.

Israel is tiny in area and lacks natural resources. It cannot absorb millions of people. It accepts Ethiopian Jews (probably grudgingly) because it feels morally bound to do so, not because they really want them.

Interesting.

Another demographic factor in the low birthrate among educated secular Jews in the US.

Right.

The US is experiencing a countervailing growth in precisely the type of Jew that is most difficult for non-Jews to relate to. I'm referring to the chassidim and other ultraorthodox sects who live apart and tend to have large families.

Yeah, to quote the venerable Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys classic, They Ain’t Makin’ Jews Like Jesus Anymore

I'm sure you've seen a few in Toronto and noted their exotic garb.

I saw a lot more of them while I was growing up in Montréal. Their clothing stopped being "exotic" to me around the age of 7 or 8.

If this trend continues, the ultraorthodox will greatly outnumber the secular Jews. Ironically, the vast majority of these people are not Zionists.

What's it to you?

They would not consider going to Israel until the Messiah appears. Fat chance!

What, like you're an expert in these matters?

Hey, wait a second, I'll quote you: Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false? If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists. - Blaise Pascal

Oh yeah, just one more thing. You said:
It all comes down to politics, but it's not what Greenspun sees through his Coke bottle lenses.


- joi.ito.com/moblog/entries/2004/08/23/002903.html

[blaise]

I haven't the time to reply fully right now. I'll just point out that that immigration was of Russian Jews, and that reserve is emptying out. The American idealists who move
to Israel have slowed to a trickle and some of them have moved back to the US (along with Israelis who were born in Israel). I know a few of them, and they are a hell of a lot better informed about the situation than Greenspun.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Blaise said:

I haven't the time to reply fully right now. I'll just point out that that immigration was of Russian Jews, and that reserve is emptying out. The American idealists who move
to Israel have slowed to a trickle and some of them have moved back to the US (along with Israelis who were born in Israel). I know a few of them, and they are a hell of a lot better informed about the situation than Greenspun.

Read my post carefully before you reply. I have already noted misinterpretations on your part in the above reply. Immigration is immigration - you claimed it had dried up a long time ago. I proved otherwise.

I have provided links to the quotes I used concerning immigration numbers. I do not expect anyone to believe any quantitative claims on my part without evidence. If I say, "Chaim, my good friend, who is smarter than Philip Greenspun, says different - and he knows", that just doesn't cut it.

Your presumption that your friends know more about the situation than Greenspun is noted, but unfortunately cannot be proven and is therefore inconsequential to the discussion. If you have sources to back up your claims don't be shy about providing links to them. For instance, where are these emigration numbers that you mentioned?

[HabbaDasher]

I gotta get you guys together for a few beers.... ;D

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

HabbaDasher said:

I gotta get you guys together for a few beers.... ;D

Or cigars.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

M. said:

Or cigars.

The best thing about Israel and Palestine is that they are so close together geographically. If we send over an ICBM from Colorado and it strays off target, it probably hits one or the other.

Seriously though, I was not a Zionist when I lived in Canada and still am not, but I now have a deep sympathy for Israel and their ability to endure year after year of suicide bombing without exploding in rage. The Palestineans in their squalid refugee camps and generations of deplorable living conditions have accomplished little but destruction. Destruction to Israel and to themselves. If they would focus half the energy they expend on destruction into construction, they would be at least 50% better off. If I've learned nothing else, it's that "you can't judge people 8,000 miles away and decide for them what is best." They will have to work this one out for themselves.

Pistols at 30 feet or cooperation, it's up to them. Hell, we can't even solve Quebec and Newfoundland electricity.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Habs_fan_in_LA said:

The best thing about Israel and Palestine is that they are so close together geographically. If we send over an ICBM from Colorado and it strays off target, it probably hits one or the other.

Indeed, and as Greenspun notes, the proximity of the ethnic cousins is likely what has been and is forestalling any missile attack by any holier-than-thou Muslim state in the region. As the Iraq debacle has shown us "smart" bombs still need summer school. Sure, obliterate the Israelis but wipe out the Palestinians in the same fell swoop - wouldn't that just be brilliant?

Seriously though, I was not a Zionist when I lived in Canada and still am not, but I now have a deep sympathy for Israel and their ability to endure year after year of suicide bombing without exploding in rage.

The rage does come through, but yes, it is remarkable the degree of restraint that is generally exercised.

The Palestineans in their squalid refugee camps and generations of deplorable living conditions have accomplished little but destruction. Destruction to Israel and to themselves. If they would focus half the energy they expend on destruction into construction, they would be at least 50% better off.

Unfortunately this very impotence resulting from grinding poverty and all the ill-effects generally associated with that condition are being played upon by their "allies" and "supporters". Bullets and bombs seem to be the preferred "aid" over bread and books (and I don't mean the hate-moingering tracts that are currently required reading).

If I've learned nothing else, it's that "you can't judge people 8,000 miles away and decide for them what is best." They will have to work this one out for themselves.

Pistols at 30 feet or cooperation, it's up to them. Hell, we can't even solve Quebec and Newfoundland electricity.

The Question of Palestine

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

You reminded me that the owners and players cn't come to an agreement after 120 days. Even the Israelis and neighbors were able to conduct an entire war and treaty in only six days. Their leaders didn't talk to eachother either.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Quick note from work guys.

Back in high school one of my favourite history courses covered Middle East conflicts. One week we had guest speakers who represented the Palestinian and Israeli viewpoints.

From those lectures I remembered over the years that there are two distinct conflicts;

* the Arab/Israeli conflict, and
* the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

The whole mess started with the Israeli War of Independence. To compound matters the Arab world felt betrayed when the world community recognized the state of Israel immediately after the conflict.

Have to get back to classes guys. I'll check in later.

Cheers la!

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Disgruntled70sHab said:

Quick note from work guys.

Back in high school one of my favourite history courses covered Middle East conflicts. One week we had guest speakers who represented the Palestinian and Israeli viewpoints.

From those lectures I remembered over the years that there are two distinct conflicts;

* the Arab/Israeli conflict, and
* the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

The whole mess started with the Israeli War of Independence. To compound matters the Arab world felt betrayed when the world community recognized the state of Israel immediately after the conflict.

Have to get back to classes guys. I'll check in later.

Cheers la!

Dis,

I know I'm going to sound like a teacher, but read the Greenspun article. That is not in any way meant as a comment on your post, only that I believe you will find it fascinating reading. The link to the UN Web pages regarding Palestine that I posted at the top of this page also provides a lot of valuable information.

Btw, kudos to the entire HabsRus community for not turning a potentially volatile topic into a cesspool (Blaise and I will always have our little flame-wars, but nothing that a glass of Jameson and some Blue Mountain coffee, and possibly a good smoke, can't take the edge off).

[blaise]

So the Israelis should march all the Palestinians in Gaza to Egypt and all those in the West Bank to Syria by firing howitzers at them until they cross the border?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Blaise said:

So the Israelis should march all the Palestinians in Gaza to Egypt and all those in the West Bank to Syria by firing howitzers at them until they cross the border?

Is that your suggestion? If so, it seems rather fatuous.

[blaise]

Read this, Beaux-Eaux.

new.palestinechronicle.com/article.php?story=20031226164316117

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Blaise said:

Read this, Beaux-Eaux.

new.palestinechronicle.com/article.php?story=20031226164316117

Thanks. An interesting perspective. But Blaise, re-read these:

According to the Jewish Agency, close to one million Jews immigrated to Israel in the last ten years-80% from the former Soviet Union. In recent years, the numbers of Jewish immigrants has begun to dwindle somewhat:

In 2001, 44,000 Jews immigrated.
In 2002, 35,000 Jews immigrated.
And in 2003, 25,000 Jews returned to their promised land.

- www.cbn.com/CBNNews/CWN/042304israel.asp

On Independence Day, May 7, 2003, Israel's population stood at 6.7 million according to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics.

The Jewish population is approximately 5.4 million (counting for 38% of the world's Jews); the non-Jewish population is approximately 1.3 million (82% of these are Muslims, 9% are Christians and 9% are Druze).

- www.israelmybeloved.com/today/population_figures/

Dec 15, 2004 7:18 am US/Eastern

JERUSALEM, Israel (CBS) After years of stagnation, American Jewish immigration to Israel is on the rise again, with the number of people arriving this year expected to approach a 20-year-high, immigration officials said Tuesday.

- cbsnewyork.com/mideast/mideast_story_350072112.html

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

Blaise said:

So the Israelis should march all the Palestinians in Gaza to Egypt and all those in the West Bank to Syria by firing howitzers at them until they cross the border?

The Israelis should give the Palestineans what they want. Suicide vests. It's important that people who seek to blow themselves up are encouraged to do it safely.
I personally think that if you are concerned that the ratio of Palestenians to Israelis is dropping, blowing yourself up does not improve the odds.

For years I stood on the sidelines, neither supporting, not criticizing Zionism.
Israel has exercised tremendous patience with a situation of sabotage/murder/destruction that has gone on for years and is now a part of daily life there.
The US did not sit quietly when the Trade Center was attacked. They reacted swiftly and forcefully. (agree or disagree with what they did, but they took action)
Canada reacted with tremendous outrage when a couple of small bombs were placed in post boxes and two kidnappings occurred. The entire armed forces (both guys) were sprung into action and martial law (Canada style) was declared.

I really don't think that it is possible to help a people who grew up in impoverished Palestinean refugee camps and for generations and were taught in school to hate and kill for God. Putting up a WalMart and a Starbucks in Nablis and giving them jobs as greeters and restroom cleaners won't make them good citizens.

[blaise]

M. said:

Is that your suggestion? If so, it seems rather fatuous.

Fat-you-us? I'm not fat? How about U? Didn't you see it was a flippant reply to HFLA's post just above it?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Blaise said:

Fat-you-us? I'm not fat? How about U? Didn't you see it was a flippant reply to HFLA's post just above it?

Hill-Larry-us.

FYI:
Internet/Web etiquette requires that one quote the poster one is replying to in order to avoid the possible confusion that you have alluded to. Easy to do and fun too.

[mic]

Habs_fan_in_LA said:

Israel has exercised tremendous patience with a situation of sabotage/murder/destruction that has gone on for years and is now a part of daily life there.

There are two sides. Israel has constently violated human rights. If the minimum standard of treatment isn't respected by Israel, why would Palestinians stop their attacks ? It's a classical Prisoner's Dilema, in which it's helpless to look for a responsible. Idealy, the perpective that both sides will have to live together for a long time should make them cooperate. But as long as Israel continues a colonization policy, denying rights to Palestinians, and as long as some pro-palestinian groups coninue their terrorist attacks, conflict will continue.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

mic said:

There are two sides. Israel has constently violated human rights. If the minimum standard of treatment isn't respected by Israel, why would Palestinians stop their attacks ? It's a classical Prisoner's Dilema, in which it's helpless to look for a responsible. Idealy, the perpective that both sides will have to live together for a long time should make them cooperate. But as long as Israel continues a colonization policy, denying rights to Palestinians, and as long as some pro-palestinian groups coninue their terrorist attacks, conflict will continue.

You are correct in that both sides are culpable in this Hobson's Choice. Israel stole the land from the Arabs in 1947, The Hittites stole the land from the Philistines in -2047. You can always justify your birthright if you go back far enough. Both sides have to come to an agreement (Bettman and Goodenow, are you listening).

If you live in squalor and do nothing to improve your condition, it' hard to blame others for your condition. If you don't study all year, you can't blame your teacher for giving a hard test. If you sleep in till noon, you can't blame your manager or customers for not making your sales quotas. If you smoke tobacco, you can't blame Joe Camel for your cancer. At some point you have to take responsibility for yourself and your children. It's not black and white, but I see do one country of ants working harder to improve their condition and the other grasshoppers complaining and destroying. Other than Gandhi and Moss, turning the other cheek is largely ineffectual.

[MC Habber]

Habs_fan_in_LA said:

It's not black and white, but I see do one country of ants working harder to improve their condition and the other grasshoppers complaining and destroying. Other than Gandhi and Moss, turning the other cheek is largely ineffectual.

Complaining? You wouldn't be complaining if I levelled your neighbour's house, built a wall around your neighbourhood, and had undisciplined armed soldiers deciding where you could go and when?

Destroying? The Israeli army specializes in that area! There's plenty of blame to spread and IMO it should be spread pretty evenly, although some who've lead the Israeli government have been a lot better than others.

[mic]

Habs_fan_in_LA said:

If you live in squalor and do nothing to improve your condition, it' hard to blame others for your condition. If you don't study all year, you can't blame your teacher for giving a hard test. If you sleep in till noon, you can't blame your manager or customers for not making your sales quotas. If you smoke tobacco, you can't blame Joe Camel for your cancer. At some point you have to take responsibility for yourself and your children. It's not black and white, but I see do one country of ants working harder to improve their condition and the other grasshoppers complaining and destroying. Other than Gandhi and Moss, turning the other cheek is largely ineffectual.

Repeatedly targeting civilians, including children makes one responsible. My hopes are that peace will come as soon as possible. But 50 years of more or less permanent humiliation isn't compatible with your opinion of "stop comlaining and work hard". That's naive and even won't be allowed by Israeli's Hawks : it's against Netanyahu and Sharon's realists rationality to see a Palestinian state becoming wealthy. While some worked for peace (Rabin), the ultra ortodox and conservatives have always worked in order to make it impossible for Palestinian's leaders to maintain their leadership and leading their people to peace. By controlling access to key places and colonizing behond their territories, they made it sure Palestinians never could developp anything near a embrionary economy.

Israel had the luck to be always supported by the USA and for a long time by Europe, while the Arab world was and is not a united unit. They had access to all universities and knowledge in the West and could build a strong state (being protected by the Nuclear Bomb). However, they will have to help create a Palestinian state sooner or later. Cooperation will need a strong Mahmoud Abbas and a consilient Sharon.