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Post by Cranky on Mar 12, 2006 23:35:13 GMT -5
How long before Canada is targeted by Al Quida bombers? After all, our boys and girls are standing in their way in Afganistan. And if we are bombed, do you think that Canadians have the stomach and the resolve to stick it out?
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Post by Skilly on Mar 13, 2006 9:47:15 GMT -5
We were always on Al-Quaida's top five countries they would target for bombing list. Like I said in another thread regarding the war in Iraq ..... we will get hit within the next 5 years and when we do we will be on our own. The war in Iraq may have been ill advised, but the US are not going to protect us when we don't support them.
We are in Afghanistan as apart of a UN fighting force, not at the request of the United States. We are an occupying force in Afghanistan and we, in Canada, try to sugar coat it by claiming to be peace-keeping. We are in a war, there is no peace-keeping to it.
Canadians from coast to coast better get used to our soldiers coming home in coffins. It is a terrible image to have to see, but we have to look past it and stand behind our soldiers. They are over there with the rest of the world trying to keep the Taliban from regaining power. It is a worthy cause, a noble cause ..... and our soldiers need to know that the Canadian people support their work. Harper deserves kudos for going over there and putting his neck out and showing the troops that the government supports them.
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Post by Habit on Mar 13, 2006 16:53:14 GMT -5
Just a few point on this... We are there under NATO not UN. NATO has the mandate to use force, whereas the UN can only defend itself. Big difference, and the main reason. The Task Force that is there falls under ISAF or International Security Assistance Force. No one has ever said we are there for Peace Keeping. It's Peace Making, and it's a tough go for people who have for hundreds of generations have known nothing but dispute, most of it deadly. They look at Canadiens and only see Americans. Sometimes that is a good thing, others times it down right dangerous. I met the Canadian High Comissioner to England last Thursday at a dinner in Brussles. When he talked to a few of us about how Canadiens are viewed, he said that in a recient poll of the European Community, Canada was the least disliked Country in the world. Again, sometimes that is good, sometimes bad. He also stated, when asked 'What is Canada?', these same people said: Beavers, Moose, Mountains and Mounties. Is that good? Well if your a terrorist, Canada might be on your list, but kinda far down. It's like that trip you always want to take, but something always comes up and you can never find the time to plan it. I believe that is what it is now like at this point in time. However, if the troops in Afghan stir the pot to much, we might be getting double air miles points really quick. But saying that, the troops are not just fighting, patrolling and stiring the pot. A majority of the work they are doing is called a PRT or Provincial Reconstruction Team. This PRT is responsible for geting the basic framework for economy, education and socity in general. This is the PR that the troops are trying to instill into the public; LOOK AT US, WE BUILT A SCHOOL AND PAVED YOUR ROADS. GET AN EDUCATION AND OPEN A BUSINESS. What the news reports and what is happening over there are 2 different things. A Canadian getting an axe in the head while patrolling a village is better news than 10 soldiers using their off time to help locals fix a falling down school so the kids can have a safe place to learn. If you want a glimps of what it is like, take a look at this sight: www.canada-afghanistan.gc.ca/menu-en.asp and www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca/common/combatcamera/video_photo_e.aspThese 2 sights will give you alot more info on Canada contribution that CBC's National. Afghan is also THE MOST land mined place in the world. If you could pick up one land mine a minute, it would take 100 years to finish. There is a wise saying... "Stay on the hardpack." It's harder to mine a paved road that just beside it. Cheers!
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Mar 13, 2006 17:13:32 GMT -5
We were always on Al-Quaida's top five countries they would target for bombing list. Like I said in another thread regarding the war in Iraq ..... we will get hit within the next 5 years and when we do we will be on our own. The war in Iraq may have been ill advised, but the US are not going to protect us when we don't support them. Quite true, Skilly. We offered support in the immediate hours after 9/11 but the USA felt they could handle the situation on their own. I had just left the Distaster Assistance Response Team (DART) and was in the operations cell when the DART deployed to their staging area in Trenton. They waited there until the USA was sure they weren't needed and about a week later they came home. As far as losing their support over Iraq, well, Bush can play that card any time he wants. But, it won't be because he wants our support. Playing a control game like that means he's after something else. I qualify that by saying the Canadians have now assumed American responsibilities in Iraq. And it was Afghanistan, not Iraq, that was a post-9/11 initiative. Yes and no, Skilly. I haven't read anything recently in the papers that suggests this is a peacekeeping mission. Right from the beginning the guys and gals that are going over there know the score as do their families. The Canadian continent have been wearing their green berets instead of the UN blue berets normally associated with peacekeeping missions. The Canadians have also started probably the most dangerous part of their tour since they rolled into Afghanistan with "I love NY" written on their LAV III's some three years ago. They've moved into the mountains to hunt down the Taliban in their own terrain. Up unitl now, this is something that was left to special forces. But they didn't do this on the scale the Canadian infantry is doing right now. BTW, this isn't the first offensive operation the Canadians have undertook. Check out Operation Anaconda when you have the time. It was a joint coalition offensive in which the Canadians distiguished themselves brilliantly. Also, no less than six Canadian snipers received Bronze Stars when they rescued a trapped American Ranger company that was pinned down by sniper fire. Check this link out when you have the chance. Record shot! Then please check out Bronze Stars.Harper scored major leadership points with me Skilly. I didn't vote for the man or his party, but I've come to endorse his support of our military. In fact, he stayed longer than any other foreign leader has in a war zone. His initiatives for the military are noteworthy. However, he's set some lofty goals and I really think he's going to have problems meeting them. As for John Q. Canadian, it's a very contentious debate now as whether our boys and gals should be there. However, those representing us in Afghanistan are there for our best interests (it's just as well. They also represent the very best in our society too). They're taking the fight to those who would otherwise destroy our way of life and beliefs. Cheers.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Mar 13, 2006 17:18:13 GMT -5
How long before Canada is targeted by Al Quida bombers? After all, our boys and girls are standing in their way in Afganistan. And if we are bombed, do you think that Canadians have the stomach and the resolve to stick it out? What's your opinion, HA. Just curious. Cheers.
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Post by Cranky on Mar 13, 2006 18:31:16 GMT -5
How long before Canada is targeted by Al Quida bombers? After all, our boys and girls are standing in their way in Afganistan. And if we are bombed, do you think that Canadians have the stomach and the resolve to stick it out? What's your opinion, HA. Just curious. Cheers. Do you really want to know my opinion? You know it's not going to be pretty. From the perspective of the Taliban and Al Quida leadership.... Infidels have invade our country and forcing their Christian evil ways upon us. We must take two courses of actions to defeat them.
Canadian people and the Canadian government do not have the resolve to see coffins coming out of airplanes every day. We must kill as many as possible and kidnap and behead as many as possible. Their people are not like the Americans.
Like Spain, there is a very strong anti-war mentality that questions their participation. A bomb in a Toronto subway should kill at least 50 people and bring our war to them. There may be an immediate outcry for retaliation but like Spain, Canada does not have the mentality, resolve or equipment. Their current history shows that they will not take aggressive action, much like they did not take any action when our brothers killed the woman reporter with impunity. There will be protests in their streets to withdraw from our lands and their politicians will hear them and bend.It's not what we do, want to do, or bellieve we can do, it's how we are perceived. And others will act on that perception. I was reading some comments in an Iranian forum about what Canada would do after the woman reporter was murdered. Their consensus was that Canada is a joke and we would do nothing. All of it is going to blow away. The sad part was when I was reading that, I knew they were right, but it still those comments cut into me. Dis, Canada has become a joke as far as military is concerned and with that, ZERO projection of power. The sad part is that the entire world knows it and sees it. Heck, our precious Liberal goverments applauded it. Go into any international military forum and ask who or what can threaten Canada and the response is "NOTHING, they have the Americans to protect them". We are seen around the world as a protectorate of the US. NOTHING MORE. So if this is the opinion of Greeks, Turks, Armenians, and Iranians, why would it be different for anyone else on the planet? Do you think the entire world reads or cares to read about WW2 and how Canada was considered a serious power? That bit of history is for our own consummation and aggrandizing our egos. Most Canadians see an armored personal carrier and a couple of man with guns and to them, that is a WAR MACHINE that kills people, we shouldn't even have THAT so why do we need more? Ask 99.9% of Canadians to name any of our weapons systems and all you will get is "we have guns". I'm ranting on...... Bottom line, from a Taliban and Al Quida perspective, there is every solid, intelligent, logical reason to send as many Canadians as possible back home in body bags, cut off heads with pocket knives and bring the bodybags to your neighborhood subway station. They can only gain from that action. From their perspective, at best, we are likely to withdraw or at worst, do nothing more then what we are doing now..
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Post by Cranky on Mar 13, 2006 18:53:20 GMT -5
We were always on Al-Quaida's top five countries they would target for bombing list. Like I said in another thread regarding the war in Iraq ..... we will get hit within the next 5 years and when we do we will be on our own. The war in Iraq may have been ill advised, but the US are not going to protect us when we don't support them. Quite true, Skilly. We offered support in the immediate hours after 9/11 but the USA felt they could handle the situation on their own. I had just left the Distaster Assistance Response Team (DART) and was in the operations cell when the DART deployed to their staging area in Trenton. They waited there until the USA was sure they weren't needed and about a week later they came home. Skilly, The Americans will bend us over a barrel if there is any terrorist acts in Canada. They will scream "I told you so" from every orifice. They are already sick and tired of our politicians taking pot shots at them and our arrogence towards them. On top of that, they think we are soft on terror and riding on their coat tails as far as military is concerned. They are right of course but don't say it too loudly lest you be labeled a Yank lover or a war monger. . Dis, the Americans always want C&C and they have the military/civilian infrastructure to deal with any major problems.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Mar 14, 2006 0:33:50 GMT -5
Forgive me HA, but I don't know what the purpose of your thread it. I originally thought you were trying to start a discussion as to whether or not the Canadian military should be in Afghanistan. However, on the surface it looks as if you've been on some other boards, have run into some adverse opinions and are now embarassed. Do you really want to know my opinion? You know it's not going to be pretty. Opinion on what? Yes. They can trash talk all they want. However, I think the Taliban will be thinking othewise shortly. Which is why wars are fought in the first place. It's not the blow to national pride. It's the fear of being preceived as weak if they fail to act. You're suggesting that the Canadian military is preceived as weak. I can tell you they are anything but so. A quick reference. When the Canadians were taking over from the Germans about two years ago, the Germans were losing about two soldiers a week at one point. This was due to inexperience in handling this kind of situation. The Canadians took over the same responsibilities and lost only four soldiers due to friendly fire. This refers to a government issue not a military one. Besides, they can talk all they want. Iran's image in the world is probably worse than many other nations in the world. I feel your opinion to ill-informed, HA. Having served in two war zones I know for a fact the Canadian military is extremely well respected for their professionalism and their ability to get the mission accomplished. However, like many citizens, you will read about the plethora of problems the Canadian military has and very little about what they bring to the table. Also, I have to contest your generalization of "the entire world knows it." If you've canvassed the entire world then I might buy into it. Again, having served with the Canadian Forces I know first-hand what other armies think of us. Yes, they were pathetic. This perception has been around for years. I don't think it will ever go away until Canada becomes a military peer of the USA. So, how many countries can boast that? However, while the Liberals did nothing to change this perception, the Torys seem committed. Watch and shoot as they say. Their opinions are just as valuable as anyone else's. However, if these are the boards you've been on they are hardly military juggernauts themselves. No. The entire world could care less about the WW II accomplishments of many countires. What is your point? BTW, the Dutch remind us every year about what this country has done for them. Had you served you might feel differently. In my 23 years in serving Canada I haven't run into one Canadian serviceperson that soaks the benefits of this legacy. I not only contest the "ego" reference, but consider the generalization, that is lumping all Canadians in the same mold or feeling "the-entire-world-thinks-so," to be rubbish! However, it is very important to remember the accomplishments and sacrifices of others that made Canada the place it is. This is the context in which it should and for the most part be remembered. Two thumbs up. In war it is customary to kill as many of the enemy as possible when there is no other choice. Again, if you're following the reports out of Afghanistan you'll know the Canadians are now moving deep into Taliban territory. They don't know the land like the enemy does but they know they're going to be in for a fight. And, as the PM said earlier, we're there for the long haul. We're not going anywhere. Coming full circle on you, HA, I've read what others have said and feel you've adopted their opinions. If the Canadian military is still an embarassment to you, well, maybe consider picking up a rifle and standing a post, buds. Or maybe consider picking up a pen and writing a letter to the troops. I do and some of these guys and gals are friends and former students of mine. Cheers.
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Post by Cranky on Mar 14, 2006 3:02:01 GMT -5
Coming full circle on you, HA, I've read what others have said and feel you've adopted their opinions. If the Canadian military is still an embarassment to you, well, maybe consider picking up a rifle and standing a post, buds. Or maybe consider picking up a pen and writing a letter to the troops. I do and some of these guys and gals are friends and former students of mine. Cheers. I am as proud of the people that serve in the Canadian military as you are Dis. My only embarrassment is the way our governments have gutted our military. We need to upgrade our equipment to meet the current challenges and we seem to either drag our feet or spend it unwisely. For example..... We bought second hand subs that already have outdated technology. The current generations of subs have gone to AIP and are a HUGE improvement overr what we bought. We are basically taking possession of 1980's technology for for four subs for almost a billion dollars. Read up on AIP Sterling engines and you will see what I mean. www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.html/function/view/categoryid/164/documentid/2873/history/3,2360,656,164,2873 Also Google "AIP Sterling"~ This is only ONE weapon system. Our fighters are getting on in age and are now two generation behind with probably another generation going by before we will even open the discussion on replacements. Our MBT's are heading for e-bay. ~~~~~~~~~~ As for the thread.....and my opinion. I am concerned about what Afghanistan can hold for us. Nowhere am I even remotely suggesting in pulling out. In fact, I am prepared for the consequence and believe it's a price we have to pay as a nation. What I fear is that if we don't show firm resolve and unbending commitment, we will be an even bigger domestic target. That doesn't mean that we should not have any discussion about Afghanistan, but we should not have a debate about placing our people in harms way. This will only embolden our enemies and demoralize our people. Dis, I know that our people are very capable. There is no question about that. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that we are seen as a military "power". We are a top ten economic power with a 30sh military. It ws funny to read an article about Canada's military "punching above it's weight". We can be middleweights without hardship to our social programs and yet our governments made us into a lightweights. I heard yelpings about "Peace Dividens" but those dividens must have been intended to be lost in pockets and vote buying projects. Anywho.... I seem to have offended you and I know you are a military man. Well Dis, having a father and father in law who proudly served in WW2 (and both got injured), having genes that were worn by Ancient Spartans, working for a company that was deep in advanced military technology and still keeping an eye on military technology, I can hardly qualify for the "Peacenik" bumper sticker. We may differ from our point of origin but not in the destination.
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Post by Skilly on Mar 14, 2006 8:06:36 GMT -5
If and when Canadian soil is targeted (ie your Toronto subway example) we won't need the United States to help us. IMO, and a purely patriotic bias one, I feel that not only would our soldiers, our navy, our air force, and JTF2 be flooded with people wanting to get a shot at the b@s**rds that did it ..... but the Canadian people will also finally realize what it is that these brave people are fighting for .... it is the same fight that was fought in WWI and WWII (peace, the ability to live without fear).
Also ... attack the Americans and people are left with the impression of "they will go to war soon and fight this war, let's stay out of it". But if you attack Canada I will bet my last dollar that there will be a world coalition wanting to help from the outset ... because of the way we are percieved.
I am a staunch supporter of the American and Canadian military. I have 2 cousins in Afghanistan. (the funny thing is one is with the American air force, the other is with the Canadian troops). And another cousin (the brother of the American air force) is with the Canadian navy.
Our military might be small, it might not be well-equipped .... but we are one of the best trained militaries in the world, and we are still a country that has never lost a war we were in .... never under-estimate the power of the Canadian heart.
It sickens me that the Liberals sent the the troops to war, and now they want to garner political points saying the war should be debated in the House of Commons. This is not the time to drive divisions into the country, this is a time for the country to band together, to get behind the boys and gals over there .... to show them that we are GD proud that they are doing what we are not brave enough to do because we want to stay in our cozy couches and watch hockey and hope it all works out for the best. I was watching a report last night of the RED DEVIL group, (Princess Patricia light infantry I believe) and I was so pissed-off when the reporter said the only thing that soldiers are worried about is how they are percieved back home. That thought should not be on their mind ... they should be out there with survival on their minds ... it is bleeding hearts putting thoughts like that in their heads that will get some of them killed. They have enough to worry about with their own families and their military brothers and sisters ...... they should be applauded and revered for what they are doing, and I for one am damn proud of them and will salut each and every one of them if I ever get the chance to meet any of them. They are true heroes.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Mar 14, 2006 14:00:25 GMT -5
No offense taken, HA. I found the thread scattered a bit and simply had to ascertain where it was going. The decline started with the Liberals and it's hopefully soon to end under the conservatives. Those four submarines you referred to was a sham of a deal. In exchange for the four Upholder Class, now dubbed Victoria Class because the Navy didn't want them known as U-Boats, came to Canada at the cost of $1 per sub I think. However, in exchange for this British forces would have use of the Canadian-based training facility in Suffield until the bill was paid in full. This included full rations and quarters as well as other logistical support. Well, those papers have been quitely ripped up and Canada has been pumping money into these boats ever since. We've also put our Leopard I's into war storage now and have gone with wheeled recon vehicle instead. We turned down two squadrons of Blackhawk helicopters at $1 million a pop. Considering they're over $20 million a piece to make ... The government cited it was too costly to maintain them and we would have to tain pilots as well. Then the decision was made to send our troops into Afghanistan. Hmm ... However, the upgrading has been ongoing now. The Air Defence Anti Tank system (ADATS) has made a difference already. The Light Armoured Vehicle III (LAV III) is such and excellent vehicle that the USA has inked a $4 billion contract to purchase over 200 of them. However, formation-sized logistics still remain a problem. We had to rely on the Australians to get us into East Timor because we didn't have any amphibious landing crafts. And, it's usually the Russians who provide the pilots Antanov transport aircraft to get us overseas. Unfortunately, there was always money in the military budget. However, it's been so mismanaged over the years that it's starting to reflect now. To give you an idea, Australia has relatively the same military budget as we do. Now, compare the two forces. And now there is a growing lobby wanting our troops home. Skilly is right when he says that we should be supporting these guys and gals. And, as I was saying before, this isn't the time to debate whether or not they should be there. Send them THEN debate whether they should be there? No. Not on. Cheers.
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Post by Tankdriver on Mar 14, 2006 19:05:57 GMT -5
Interesting debates from both sides or all parties that have participated. As a Reservist for the last 7 years, I have seen the changes that has occured over the years. Our Main Battle Tanks(MBT's) are getting on in years and are not even in the hundreads. The last figures I can remember is for every 1 running there are 3 that aren't and WON'T be fixed. Our Fire Support Vehicule, the cougar was refurbised after 20 years and a year later were shipped out west for training mission purposes or sent(given) to Africa. Canada's newer vehicules the Coyote LAV 3 (infantry carrier)/LAV 25 (recce vehicule) are over 10 years old now. Yes the Americans are buying them, but are purchasing all the equipment that was meant for it, unlike Canada who only buys the basic model. Yes the clothing has changed, but desert clothes are hard to come by. While most have been issued the new equipment there are still some units who have problems issuing new stuff to the recruits. For years I been hearing about Canada role changing. Face it, we will never be super power. I have had the colonel of the 35 brigade dicuss with me how the armoured divison has changed and evolved. We are no longer an armoured unit....now we are an armoured Recce unit. The differnece? No longer will you see a tank battle field. Our Job is to hide 50 kilometers above the lines, hide and report on the enemy. The vehicules used? Coyotes and the new g-Wagon. A mercedes jeep that is too top heavy and is easy to flip and won't stop a bullet. Does it both us soilders? Yes. Sure we are afraid to get shot and killed. The difference now is that we are now trained to use our minds instead of our trigger fingers. We are trained using the 3 block war scenario which focus on maintaining peace, giving support and rebuilding the county. The list of volunteers for missions will not shrink. It is our duty to help others in need. That is why we go. Why we risk our lives. Why buddies of mine were there before, are now, and will be leaving soon. Yes we don't have the firepower, but we have the courage, strength and brain power to help were we can. That is why people will help out us. They know we would be there for them. Ask France, England, Holland, U.S. and they will be there in a second. For now we go, just as my regiment has gone before. That is why we have the most battle honors in Canada. Sorry if this got off topic but there is so much more that regular people don't know about that only the few that have served that do. For those who want to know I am a Master Corporal serving with the Sherbrooke Hussars. Click on this link to see how life is for a soilder: media.putfile.com/a-soldiers-tribute
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Post by Cranky on Mar 15, 2006 3:11:43 GMT -5
Interesting debates from both sides or all parties that have participated. As a Reservist for the last 7 years, I have seen the changes that has occured over the years. Our Main Battle Tanks(MBT's) are getting on in years and are not even in the hundreads. The last figures I can remember is for every 1 running there are 3 that aren't and WON'T be fixed. Our Fire Support Vehicule, the cougar was refurbised after 20 years and a year later were shipped out west for training mission purposes or sent(given) to Africa. Canada's newer vehicules the Coyote LAV 3 (infantry carrier)/LAV 25 (recce vehicule) are over 10 years old now. Yes the Americans are buying them, but are purchasing all the equipment that was meant for it, unlike Canada who only buys the basic model. Yes the clothing has changed, but desert clothes are hard to come by. While most have been issued the new equipment there are still some units who have problems issuing new stuff to the recruits. For years I been hearing about Canada role changing. Face it, we will never be super power. I have had the colonel of the 35 brigade dicuss with me how the armoured divison has changed and evolved. We are no longer an armoured unit....now we are an armoured Recce unit. The differnece? No longer will you see a tank battle field. Our Job is to hide 50 kilometers above the lines, hide and report on the enemy. The vehicules used? Coyotes and the new g-Wagon. A mercedes jeep that is too top heavy and is easy to flip and won't stop a bullet. Does it both us soilders? Yes. Sure we are afraid to get shot and killed. The difference now is that we are now trained to use our minds instead of our trigger fingers. We are trained using the 3 block war scenario which focus on maintaining peace, giving support and rebuilding the county. The list of volunteers for missions will not shrink. It is our duty to help others in need. That is why we go. Why we risk our lives. Why buddies of mine were there before, are now, and will be leaving soon. Yes we don't have the firepower, but we have the courage, strength and brain power to help were we can. That is why people will help out us. They know we would be there for them. Ask France, England, Holland, U.S. and they will be there in a second. For now we go, just as my regiment has gone before. That is why we have the most battle honors in Canada. Sorry if this got off topic but there is so much more that regular people don't know about that only the few that have served that do. For those who want to know I am a Master Corporal serving with the Sherbrooke Hussars. Click on this link to see how life is for a soilder: media.putfile.com/a-soldiers-tributeActually, I have only seen one side and it's totally behind our guys there and behind the military. Let's see if there is another side questioning why we need to be there or why the military should be gutted. You mentioned the Benzes, now there is another BRILLIANT decision. *drooling with sarcasm* When I saw the Benz G-wagon paraded as the best field vehicle that money can buy, I was not sure if I should laugh or cry. For those who don't know, these things are great for roads or careful driving off-road, but who exactly driving them "carefully" when you are in the theater? A couple of years ago. I saw a Jeep Cherokee tip over from a small bump by a Civic. And I mean SMALL bump. The Civic lights were broken and scratches on the hood. Meanwhile the Jeep had a woman and here child trapped for 10 minutes. Those Benzes are top heavy BEFORE they are armoured. Armouring them exacerbates the roll over problem big time. The American Hummers are very wide for EXACTLY that reason. Here is a picture fo the G-Wagon and Hummer. Try THIS with the G-wagon. Go HERE to see armored Hummers used by Greece. They also have G-wagons but they consider them as utility transport vehicles rather then combat vehicles. The Greek Hummers were bought as a combat recce and it's EXACTLY what Canada should have bought. It's also the ideal vehicle for the Afghanistan mission (with .50 cal. instead of the Milan). Actually Greece is better equipped then Canada with a quarter of the GDP. www.primeportal.net/hummers/greek_humvees.htm BTW, for those who don't know what a recce unit is, it's short for reconnaissance.
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Post by Tankdriver on Mar 15, 2006 8:19:19 GMT -5
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Post by Habit on Mar 15, 2006 10:22:39 GMT -5
Talking to alot of Americal Soldiers, they hate the Hummer. To big, to clumsy, to loud.
Were not the only military to use the G-Wagon. One of the reasons it was purchased was on the proven track record it had from other militarys such as the Dutch.
Don't buy into the Hummer hype. It looks good, but that's about it.
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Post by Cranky on Mar 15, 2006 22:16:25 GMT -5
Noisy, eats gas, too wide.....you can't have your cake and eat it too. Actually, I like the G-wagon in it's simple form. Something wicked about a vehicle that can really go anywhere and still be used in the city. Adding a 50 would also quiet down any road rage. Habit, I am not a Hummer salesman, all I can relate to is what I read and from an engineering perspective. Needless to say, the Hummer is wider to make it harder to roll over. Add the turret on top and you REALLY raise the G-Wagons c.g. We ALREADY had 3 people injured in a roll over just a month ago. As for "stopping a bullet", I can't talk to that because I have not read any details and I doubt any detail in such matters would be published. Why would the military pay $130,000 for an armoured version if it can't stop small arms? tankdriver, Habit and Dis, which would you rather have on "the third block"? A Hummer or a G-wagon? * www.canada.com/globaltv/national/story.html?id=0eb53607-2ddd-485f-9df6-52083ac651dc
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Post by Toronthab on Mar 16, 2006 12:54:24 GMT -5
We were always on Al-Quaida's top five countries they would target for bombing list. Like I said in another thread regarding the war in Iraq ..... we will get hit within the next 5 years and when we do we will be on our own. The war in Iraq may have been ill advised, but the US are not going to protect us when we don't support them. We are in Afghanistan as apart of a UN fighting force, not at the request of the United States. We are an occupying force in Afghanistan and we, in Canada, try to sugar coat it by claiming to be peace-keeping. We are in a war, there is no peace-keeping to it. Canadians from coast to coast better get used to our soldiers coming home in coffins. It is a terrible image to have to see, but we have to look past it and stand behind our soldiers. They are over there with the rest of the world trying to keep the Taliban from regaining power. It is a worthy cause, a noble cause ..... and our soldiers need to know that the Canadian people support their work. Harper deserves kudos for going over there and putting his neck out and showing the troops that the government supports them. Unlike the Bush family oil war, Iraq, the Afganistan action is legal and morally defensible. I don't think that there are too many Canadians opposed to it. It's really unfortunate that Bush had no interest in actually capturing Osama. I saw Bush make one of the most bizarre speeches (more than ususal) about how unimportant it was to get Bin Laden, no doubt because of the Bush family's enjoyment of the Bin Laden family money, if that isn't freaky. As for Harpur's trip? Grandstanding. He may actually believe he's accomplished something real, but his job is in Ottawa. He should do it. Will he be spending a few days with the welfare moms and unemployed (who won't be rotated out) when he gets back? Will he toil beside the working poor in the fields of B.C. ? I doubt it.
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Post by Toronthab on Mar 16, 2006 13:00:12 GMT -5
Just a few point on this... We are there under NATO not UN. NATO has the mandate to use force, whereas the UN can only defend itself. Big difference, and the main reason. The Task Force that is there falls under ISAF or International Security Assistance Force. No one has ever said we are there for Peace Keeping. It's Peace Making, and it's a tough go for people who have for hundreds of generations have known nothing but dispute, most of it deadly. They look at Canadiens and only see Americans. Sometimes that is a good thing, others times it down right dangerous. I met the Canadian High Comissioner to England last Thursday at a dinner in Brussles. When he talked to a few of us about how Canadiens are viewed, he said that in a recient poll of the European Community, Canada was the least disliked Country in the world. Again, sometimes that is good, sometimes bad. He also stated, when asked 'What is Canada?', these same people said: Beavers, Moose, Mountains and Mounties. Is that good? Well if your a terrorist, Canada might be on your list, but kinda far down. It's like that trip you always want to take, but something always comes up and you can never find the time to plan it. I believe that is what it is now like at this point in time. However, if the troops in Afghan stir the pot to much, we might be getting double air miles points really quick. But saying that, the troops are not just fighting, patrolling and stiring the pot. A majority of the work they are doing is called a PRT or Provincial Reconstruction Team. This PRT is responsible for geting the basic framework for economy, education and socity in general. This is the PR that the troops are trying to instill into the public; LOOK AT US, WE BUILT A SCHOOL AND PAVED YOUR ROADS. GET AN EDUCATION AND OPEN A BUSINESS. What the news reports and what is happening over there are 2 different things. A Canadian getting an axe in the head while patrolling a village is better news than 10 soldiers using their off time to help locals fix a falling down school so the kids can have a safe place to learn. If you want a glimps of what it is like, take a look at this sight: www.canada-afghanistan.gc.ca/menu-en.asp and www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca/common/combatcamera/video_photo_e.aspThese 2 sights will give you alot more info on Canada contribution that CBC's National. Afghan is also THE MOST land mined place in the world. If you could pick up one land mine a minute, it would take 100 years to finish. There is a wise saying... "Stay on the hardpack." It's harder to mine a paved road that just beside it. Cheers! Thanks for that most informative post. Belgent.
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Post by Tankdriver on Mar 16, 2006 14:38:14 GMT -5
tankdriver, Habit and Dis, which would you rather have on "the third block"? A Hummer or a G-wagon? A modified version of both. Read my post above for what would be ideal. But if I am going into a combat zone I'd take a hummer. Just so much more armor protection on that sucker than the G-Wagon. If it is for more rehabiliatating and giving food and water where the left is minimal...the G-wagon.
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Post by razor on Mar 21, 2006 11:39:58 GMT -5
Ask and ye shall recieve - the new Nyala RG-31. Canada's new armoured patrol vehicle. www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-patrol-rg31.htmJust delivered to Afganistan at a cost of ~1 million each. I'm partial to the old Grizzly APC myself, being a turret gunner on one for a number of years. But a little comment on the original discussion. Over the last week, two stories have come out that speak to our likelyhood of being a tartget: 1) A Canadian is kidnapped in Palestine as retaliation after the Israeli attack on a prison. The kidnappers thought they had an American and were genuinely disappointed on the discovery of the man's Canadian passport. They reacted with the comment "We love Canada". Upon the man's release, the kidnappers give him a phone number to call if he ever needs help when visiting Palestine. 2) Canadian soldiers in Afganistan kill a man in a taxi that comes to close to a vehicle column. Does the family call for a jihad on Canada? No, they ask for Canadian citizenship.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Mar 21, 2006 12:42:00 GMT -5
Ask and ye shall recieve - the new Nyala RG-31. Canada's new armoured patrol vehicle. www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-patrol-rg31.htmJust delivered to Afganistan at a cost of ~1 million each. I'm partial to the old Grizzly APC myself, being a turret gunner on one for a number of years. But a little comment on the original discussion. Over the last week, two stories have come out that speak to our likelyhood of being a tartget: 1) A Canadian is kidnapped in Palestine as retaliation after the Israeli attack on a prison. The kidnappers thought they had an American and were genuinely disappointed on the discovery of the man's Canadian passport. They reacted with the comment "We love Canada". Upon the man's release, the kidnappers give him a phone number to call if he ever needs help when visiting Palestine. 2) Canadian soldiers in Afganistan kill a man in a taxi that comes to close to a vehicle column. Does the family call for a jihad on Canada? No, they ask for Canadian citizenship. Great update, razor. Thanks! As I was saying earlier in the thread, the Canadian public rarely hear of the new equipment acquisitions. I'm not saying it hasn't been published anywhere. But, CBC or CTV have yet to make any kind of fuss about it at all, even if it is mentioned in passing. I was looking at the price tag on this and thought it a tad steep. Then I looked at the weapons platform and additional armour, and saw where it might have been spent. I still think it's a tad too high though. The Grizzly still is a decent patrol vehicle though it is starting to show its age now. We used to use five or six Grizzlies when establishing basic CP complex. In Germany we used the same amount of M113s to do the same thing. I don't see that flexability in this vehicle though. It looks mission specific, which isn't all that bad when you consider the tasks ahead of it. The price tag might be a tad high, but I guess that might be the cost of doing business and if so, so be it. The troops who are representing our interests deserve the best. Passing it around the sections now. Very good points on two recent Canadian developments. Also note that nothing has happened to the two Canadian hostages taken in Iraq before Christmas. They part of four persons kidnapped in addition to an Englishman and American. I think this shows tollerance and respect for Canadians. However, I will be telling my son not to venture anywhere near those countries when he's older. Cheers.
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Post by HabbaDasher on Mar 21, 2006 18:07:01 GMT -5
I was against becoming active combattants in Afghanistan for two reasons:
1) We are not politically, militarily, or culturally a war-minded nation. Our strength internationally is as a mediator and peacekeeper, where we can punch well above our weight, and continue building a positive reputation around the world. Now we are targets.
2) The invasion of Afghanistan is excatly what Al-Qaida wanted. Visions of brave, Arab, freedom fighters fighting off foreign invaders; Western bombs killing Arab women and children. Al-Qaida wanted to stir up Islamic Fundamentalism in the region, where resentment of meddling from the West was already high.
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Post by Skilly on Mar 22, 2006 12:09:30 GMT -5
1) A Canadian is kidnapped in Palestine as retaliation after the Israeli attack on a prison. The kidnappers thought they had an American and were genuinely disappointed on the discovery of the man's Canadian passport. They reacted with the comment "We love Canada". Upon the man's release, the kidnappers give him a phone number to call if he ever needs help when visiting Palestine. 2) Canadian soldiers in Afganistan kill a man in a taxi that comes to close to a vehicle column. Does the family call for a jihad on Canada? No, they ask for Canadian citizenship. 1) Kidnapped Canadian was not kidnapped by Al-Quaida 2) Man killed in taxi was not affiliated with Al-Quaida (that we know of). If I were an Al-Quaida member and my family just had to go through the needless death of a relative, then I would want Canadian citizenship also. What better way to move freely through-out our borders and America's borders than to shout to the world you are a Canadian citizen? Now I am not saying that this is what is happening here .... but it is sad that to protect ourselves we had better start thinking like that. Better safe than sorry as our mommas told us growing up. They didn't call for a jihad on Canada, but there were some pretty upset people in Afghanistan and their was a myriad of conflicting reports as to what transpired after the man was shot. And for that matter how the passenger got shot, I mean if you thought it was a suicide bomber would you shoot the passenger or the driver?? My point here is that after 9-11, Canada was on Al-Quaida's top 5 list of countries they want to strike. 4 of those top five had terrorist acts against them post 9-11. We are still on Al-Quaida's list ..... letting our guard down because the Arab world looks favourably upon us is not wise ... They do not speak for Al-Quaida. Even Afghani's are opposed to Al-Quaida ....... Let the Canadian forces get a coup on the Taliban strongholds and then wait for the jihad callings.
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Post by razor on Mar 23, 2006 9:45:33 GMT -5
Skilly - Even though they do not speak for Al-Quiada, I believe that the sentiment of the general Muslim population, will affect Al-Quaida's target list and certainly their ability to recruit and find allies in the Muslim world.
The only way for the Taliban to gain support and dare I say respect with Muslims, is to attack countries that the Muslim world at large hates, number one and 2 being the USA and Israel, with a close third currently being Denmark. It does them no good to attack countries that are well liked.
They have had no success in getting any country to pull out of Afganistan as the result of direct terrorist attacks, and Canada would not be no different. If anything it strengthens our resolve.
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Post by Skilly on Mar 23, 2006 11:28:32 GMT -5
Then why to this day are we still on Al-Quaida's hit list? I read in the paper the other day that Canada is still mentioned with regularity by Al-Quaida (supossed known al-quaida operatives i guess?) as a terrorist event location. The reason is simple. We are guilty by association. Most of the world just views us as a satellite of the US. We regularly publicly state the are our best friends, our neighbours. It is widely believed that a terrorist attack on Canada is : 1) easier to accomplish. We let the whole world inside our borders no questions asked, unless you are a refugee with a job. (I could go into detail there, but it is a little newfie complaint about 10 or more hard working honest refugees here in NF that the government deems necessary to deport) 2) sends a message to the US. We are next to them, we are option 2 to scare Americans. 3) won't cause any fuss. We are Canadians afterall, what can or will we do? Sit down and negotiate tersely?? Until we are taken off that list and publicly mentioned as a harbinger of the world by terrorists, than I am afriad we are a real good target. The CP conducted a survey the other day and asked Canadians want they felt was the best terrorist target inside Canada ... the masses seem to think the Toronto subway. I doubt it would be so obvious. CN tower? That would be way more dramatic. If there goal was to cripple canada ecomonically, then I am not sure it can be done since Canada's ecomony id so diverse .... but the Alberta oilfields? England, Spain, France, Germany, the US .... all on Al-Quaida's list, all with terrorist attacks. Denmark will probably be next, but I wouldn't say Canada is safe.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Apr 28, 2006 17:05:05 GMT -5
How long before Canada is targeted by Al-Quaida or by the US?
Canadians have already been targeted, in Egypt, in the Philipines, in Iraq and Iran.
How do you negotiate with people who would rather strap on a bomb and set it off than build a school for their children or plant a crop to eat?
Try exercising freedom of the press and print a picture of Mohammud in a newspaper in Moose Jaw and see how long before Canadians are attacked. Unless you are willing to give up your way of life and accept theirs, you are an infidel and mortal enemy. If you are a Muslim and choose to convert to Christianity in Come-by-chance, you have a price on your head. I'm not ready to negotiate my way of life to please fanatics half way around the world.
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