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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jun 5, 2006 18:59:27 GMT -5
I know we discussed this subject in the past and I didn't have any current statistics at that time, so I post this exerpt from this weeks LA Times.
UCLA Undergraduate admissions freshman class 2006. 4800 admissions UCLA Black student undergraduate admissions. 96 admissions. UCLA Black Student Athlete undergraduate admissions. 20 admissions. UCLA Asian Student undergraduate admissions. 43%. UCLA Hispanic undergraduate admissions. 8%.
The University of California was instructed not to use race as a factor in granting admission to students beginning in 1995. The result was a drop in minority group admissions.
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Post by Toronthab on Jun 5, 2006 20:33:28 GMT -5
Great post.
What a tough issue. Do you want a heart surgeon with the abslolute top academic record, or the next best black guy, who might be number 302 on the list. I'd go with number 302 for lots of more important reasons, but it ain't easy.
Also, I expect number 302 would be pretty darned well trained. I'm not advancing a substandard ethic. The black guy might be more athletic if they have to pound on my chest!.
Yes, this joke obliquely references a famous sportscaster's unfortunate remark concerning slavery, physical prowess and pro athleticism.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jun 5, 2006 21:18:58 GMT -5
Great post. What a tough issue. Do you want a heart surgeon with the abslolute top academic record, or the next best black guy, who might be number 302 on the list. I'd go with number 302 for lots of more important reasons, but it ain't easy. Also, I expect number 302 would be pretty darned well trained. I'm not advancing a substandard ethic. The black guy might be more athletic if they have to pound on my chest!. Yes, this joke obliquely references a famous sportscaster's unfortunate remark concerning slavery, physical prowess and pro athleticism. There are always exceptions. Yao Ming is a great tall basketball player. No favoritism is conferred upon Asian students to make their admission easier. I certainly would not avoid a Black doctor or avoid an Asian athlete trying out for the Hab's, but I do recognize that statisatically (if nothing else) the numbers are very significant an to an extent disappointing.
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Post by Toronthab on Jun 6, 2006 12:49:51 GMT -5
Great post. What a tough issue. Do you want a heart surgeon with the abslolute top academic record, or the next best black guy, who might be number 302 on the list. I'd go with number 302 for lots of more important reasons, but it ain't easy. Also, I expect number 302 would be pretty darned well trained. I'm not advancing a substandard ethic. The black guy might be more athletic if they have to pound on my chest!. Yes, this joke obliquely references a famous sportscaster's unfortunate remark concerning slavery, physical prowess and pro athleticism. E There are always exceptions. Yao Ming is a great tall basketball player. No favoritism is conferred upon Asian students to make their admission easier. I certainly would not avoid a Black doctor or avoid an Asian athlete trying out for the Hab's, but I do recognize that statisatically (if nothing else) the numbers are very significant an to an extent disappointing. I must support quotas, knowing that some personal or individual negative consequences must result. That said, I do NOT accept lowering the physical strength requirements for fire departments so that the average woman can now be considered "fit" for the job. As a firefighter once asked me. Would you rather have a strong guy, or a strong woman comming in to drag yours or your wife's body ot of a fire. Only women who can do that as well as a strong man should ever be considered for firefighting. To discriminate is another word for recognizing differences. Phenomenological analysis also indicates that males are generally better at grappling with the physical universe around them, e.g. men have much more of thjeir brains devoted to the large muscles, and women, much more of the brain devoted to fine muscle activity. Doubters...I'll meet you at Hunter's Glen on lady's night...which will be followed by a potluck social...where we can learn to relate communicate more like women.... Yes, I've heard of Michelle Wie and Anika.
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Post by PTH on Jun 10, 2006 16:06:52 GMT -5
For medical school, I like the Dutch system: a lottery. I guess something like 5 times the number of actual spots free worth of students are eligible, and if you win, you get in.
It helps make sure our doctors are human beings and not just extremely good students who can't relate to anyone or anything, and people who really want in can re-enter year after year, so you get doctors who really want to be doctors.
I wonder what effect this has on minorities in there though.
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Post by Toronthab on Jun 10, 2006 20:53:57 GMT -5
For medical school, I like the Dutch system: a lottery. I guess something like 5 times the number of actual spots free worth of students are eligible, and if you win, you get in. It helps make sure our doctors are human beings and not just extremely good students who can't relate to anyone or anything, and people who really want in can re-enter year after year, so you get doctors who really want to be doctors. I wonder what effect this has on minorities in there though. Good point you make there. Some students make excellent students but bad teachers. I am in favour of quotas, and my rationale, such as it is is to address the immense historical deficit incurred for the sin of being black.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jun 11, 2006 6:22:41 GMT -5
For medical school, I like the Dutch system: a lottery. I guess something like 5 times the number of actual spots free worth of students are eligible, and if you win, you get in. It helps make sure our doctors are human beings and not just extremely good students who can't relate to anyone or anything, and people who really want in can re-enter year after year, so you get doctors who really want to be doctors. I wonder what effect this has on minorities in there though. That would be grossly unfair to a student who always wanted to be a doctor, excelled in school, took all the honors courses and pre-med prerequisites, worked hard, applied and never got a chance because he lost a lottery. Now what does he do? Take a new career path as an insurance salesman? Wait a year and hope he gets lucky next time? If a slot in medicine is based on a lottery, it becomes a disincentive to students to take prerequisite courses. Canadians will be lining up to see better quality doctors in the US. oooops,,,,,, they're already doing that.
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Post by Toronthab on Jun 12, 2006 16:49:25 GMT -5
For medical school, I like the Dutch system: a lottery. I guess something like 5 times the number of actual spots free worth of students are eligible, and if you win, you get in. It helps make sure our doctors are human beings and not just extremely good students who can't relate to anyone or anything, and people who really want in can re-enter year after year, so you get doctors who really want to be doctors. I wonder what effect this has on minorities in there though. That would be grossly unfair to a student who always wanted to be a doctor, excelled in school, took all the honors courses and pre-med prerequisites, worked hard, applied and never got a chance because he lost a lottery. Now what does he do? Take a new career path as an insurance salesman? Wait a year and hope he gets lucky next time? If a slot in medicine is based on a lottery, it becomes a disincentive to students to take prerequisite courses. Canadians will be lining up to see better quality doctors in the US. oooops,,,,,, they're already doing that. Is there a system you can think of that would adress what I perceive as the hsistorical and current deficit of fairness and opportunity that would work better than a lottery? The good of the community can entail the diminishment of individual goods, and necessarily. For instance, does anyone have a right to more than they need? I would argue no to that generally.
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Post by Toronthab on Jun 12, 2006 16:53:27 GMT -5
For medical school, I like the Dutch system: a lottery. I guess something like 5 times the number of actual spots free worth of students are eligible, and if you win, you get in. It helps make sure our doctors are human beings and not just extremely good students who can't relate to anyone or anything, and people who really want in can re-enter year after year, so you get doctors who really want to be doctors. I wonder what effect this has on minorities in there though. That would be grossly unfair to a student who always wanted to be a doctor, excelled in school, took all the honors courses and pre-med prerequisites, worked hard, applied and never got a chance because he lost a lottery. Now what does he do? Take a new career path as an insurance salesman? Wait a year and hope he gets lucky next time? If a slot in medicine is based on a lottery, it becomes a disincentive to students to take prerequisite courses. Canadians will be lining up to see better quality doctors in the US. oooops,,,,,, they're already doing that. Those US doctors just have shinier cars.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jun 12, 2006 21:45:21 GMT -5
That would be grossly unfair to a student who always wanted to be a doctor, excelled in school, took all the honors courses and pre-med prerequisites, worked hard, applied and never got a chance because he lost a lottery. Now what does he do? Take a new career path as an insurance salesman? Wait a year and hope he gets lucky next time? If a slot in medicine is based on a lottery, it becomes a disincentive to students to take prerequisite courses. Canadians will be lining up to see better quality doctors in the US. oooops,,,,,, they're already doing that. Is there a system you can think of that would adress what I perceive as the hsistorical and current deficit of fairness and opportunity that would work better than a lottery? The good of the community can entail the diminishment of individual goods, and necessarily. For instance, does anyone have a right to more than they need? I would argue no to that generally. We have some fundamental points of disagreement (there's an understatement). I think that we do have a right to more than we need. Beer and ice cream are two examples. I agree that there is a common good, but it takes a back seat to the individual good. Some of this disagreement comes from your roots in the belief of a God and goodness. Some of the disagreement comes from you being a nicer person than I am. I consider fairness more important than need. The poor may need a bertter standard of living, but if they haven't earned it, I don't want to give it to them. I like to live my life as a lion, fending for myself and my pride. I don't want to be a bee, devoting my life to the good of the hive and working my ass off for some drones. I really don't think there is a right or wrong in our respective approaches, just what works for us. Lions aren't bad for killing antelopes (or baby seal pups). It's what they do to survive. They don't do well eating grass. We need lions and we need antelopes. Diversity!
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Post by Skilly on Jun 13, 2006 7:14:25 GMT -5
Lions aren't bad for killing antelopes (or baby seal pups). I know this is a "dig" at me .... but surely to C***** you know that lions can't survive on ice flows, and seals don't live in Africa!! (And a sea-lion is not a predator of the seal pup).
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jun 13, 2006 13:38:48 GMT -5
Lions aren't bad for killing antelopes (or baby seal pups). I know this is a "dig" at me .... but surely to C***** you know that lions can't survive on ice flows, and seals don't live in Africa!! (And a sea-lion is not a predator of the seal pup). My bad. My reference was to the Newf fishermen as lions who kill their prey, but my writing is sub-par. Newfies who go out on the ice flows are lions. Newfies who fish in the North Atlantic are lions. Newfiew who are librarians in St. John's are lions too, just for surviving that climate on the Rock! ;D
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Post by Skilly on Jun 13, 2006 18:44:40 GMT -5
I know this is a "dig" at me .... but surely to C***** you know that lions can't survive on ice flows, and seals don't live in Africa!! (And a sea-lion is not a predator of the seal pup). My bad. My reference was to the Newf fishermen as lions who kill their prey, but my writing is sub-par. Newfies who go out on the ice flows are lions. Newfies who fish in the North Atlantic are lions. Newfiew who are librarians in St. John's are lions too, just for surviving that climate on the Rock! ;D I hate the word "newfie" ..... in Newfoundland many regard it the same as the "n" word for african americans. Please try using the word "Newfoundlander" or "Labradorian".
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jun 13, 2006 20:45:40 GMT -5
My bad. My reference was to the Newf fishermen as lions who kill their prey, but my writing is sub-par. Newfies who go out on the ice flows are lions. Newfies who fish in the North Atlantic are lions. Newfiew who are librarians in St. John's are lions too, just for surviving that climate on the Rock! ;D I hate the word "newfie" ..... in Newfoundland many regard it the same as the "n" word for african americans. Please try using the word "Newfoundlander" or "Labradorian". Apology. No insult intended. A Newfoundlander by any other name would smell as.................. I spent a wonderful month in St. John's one weekend. Wonderful people.
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Post by Toronthab on Jun 13, 2006 21:20:00 GMT -5
Is there a system you can think of that would adress what I perceive as the hsistorical and current deficit of fairness and opportunity that would work better than a lottery? The good of the community can entail the diminishment of individual goods, and necessarily. For instance, does anyone have a right to more than they need? I would argue no to that generally. We have some fundamental points of disagreement (there's an understatement). I think that we do have a right to more than we need. Beer and ice cream are two examples. I agree that there is a common good, but it takes a back seat to the individual good. Some of this disagreement comes from your roots in the belief of a God and goodness. Some of the disagreement comes from you being a nicer person than I am. I consider fairness more important than need. The poor may need a bertter standard of living, but if they haven't earned it, I don't want to give it to them. I like to live my life as a lion, fending for myself and my pride. I don't want to be a bee, devoting my life to the good of the hive and working my ass off for some drones. I really don't think there is a right or wrong in our respective approaches, just what works for us. Lions aren't bad for killing antelopes (or baby seal pups). It's what they do to survive. They don't do well eating grass. We need lions and we need antelopes. Diversity! Premierement, you're right of course that my etical theories are of course deontological, as I am persuaded that this is the way things are. I think it overwhelmingly more defensible that there be a good and transcendent ground to being that supports a perfection we all recognize as what is finest in us. That recognition itself speaks to this reality. I won't begrudge you the icecream, and indeed as you know, catholic morality is predicated upon natural law. My use of the word "need" was unnuanced. Participation in culture is a basic right and a modest lifestyle is like the virtue of modesty a good thing. COnspicuous consumption is a vice we never hear about anymore, and I don't know anyone, myself included, who considers themselves to be greeedy. I think with many of us its our nature: it's us. I doubt that I'm a nicer person than you are. My favourite faxed card I received one Christmas had a typical bearded Jesus in a typical flowing garment with the caption "Jesus loves you" on the outside of the card. When I opened it up, it read "Everybody else thinks you're an a$$hole." It's on my fridge with Jean Van de Veld at the British Open, on the 18th hole, in the creek with no shoes and his pants rolled up...my very favourite athlete after Number 4. I also have a small clip of a pudgy brunette, that I clipped from a paper while I was looking for a job after resigning from one. It read..."Monica Lewinsky Hired". The primitive idea of survival of the fiittest considered within the context of predation, may not be best take on evolution. It may be that species that learn to cooperate have better survival possibilities, and more significantly, I think that the existence of human free will and the nature of intelligence and conscience indicate a root to personhood that transcends the merely biological. Survivalism, aside form being pointless may be ultimately blindnesss. It is interesting how an ethic predicated upon a humanly vicious take on Darwinsim led the way for 70 years to the eugenic principles of Nazi Germany. The universities were into it big time. Under a darwinian or other reductionist othos, we have no logical basis for complaining about Hitlers. The idea of justice is itself predicated upon the foundation of free will and a transcendent moral order. The options we adopt are meaningless only in a meaningless universe. Very few things lead me to adopt so nihilistic a worldview. We seem to have before us the two claims about reality. The first: Life is about nothin: and unintelligibe accident in an unintelligible universe, or the Second: We are here to learn about love and practice it. Pascal's wager seems reasonable indeed.
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Post by Cranky on Jun 14, 2006 17:16:34 GMT -5
Lions aren't bad for killing antelopes (or baby seal pups). It's what they do to survive. They don't do well eating grass. We need lions and we need antelopes. Diversity! Antelopes? Hmmm delicious! Pass the mustard...... ;D
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Post by Cranky on Jun 14, 2006 17:31:23 GMT -5
Some of the disagreement comes from you being a nicer person than I am. I doubt that I'm a nicer person than you are.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jun 14, 2006 17:40:51 GMT -5
I doubt that I'm a nicer person than you are. You're nicer than I am! No, you're nicer than I am!! You stupid bastard, you're nicer!!! No you idiot, you're nicer!!!! @#%$^&*, you're nicer!!!!! You're nicer, l'hostie!!!!!!!
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Post by Toronthab on Jun 14, 2006 20:12:09 GMT -5
You're nicer than I am! No, you're nicer than I am!! You stupid bastard, you're nicer!!! No you idiot, you're nicer!!!! @#%$^&*, you're nicer!!!!! You're nicer, l'hostie!!!!!!! Ok ya miserable ship, I'm nicer than you, but you're a hell of a lot funnier! > > > Yes you are. > > > Oh yes you are!
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