Did Moses Exist?

[Skilly]

Jewish debate persists: Did Moses exist and what can we know about him?

By RICHARD N. OSTLING
December 14, 2006

No figure in Jewish annals compares with Moses.
He changed the course of human history all by himself, Rabbi Norman J. Cohen writes enthusiastically in Moses and the Journey to Leadership, one of those inspirational books built around biblical personalities.

He is the founder of the nation, a revolutionary, a lawgiver, a priest, a judge, a politician, a teacher, a prophet, a comforter, and a guide all rolled up into one. He is the paradigm for all subsequent leaders, for all of us.

But a Cohen colleague at Reform Judaisms New York City seminary, Rabbi S. David Sperling, isnt certain that Moses even existed or, if he did, whether the Bible provides much reliable information about him.

Sperling contends that if traditional accounts of the origins of Judaism had not recorded a founder, analogy would have required postulating him; and that is probably what happened when ancients wrote the Bible.

Thats one of the more important assertions in the newly issued second edition of the Encyclopaedia Judaica (Macmillan Reference, 22 volumes, $1,995). Of the monumental works 21,000-plus articles, 2,600 are brand new and nearly half were updated from the 1972 original. Sperling was the editor for revisions regarding the Bible.

The introduction to Moses life (from another writer) says we cannot really reconstruct a biography of Moses. We cannot even be sure that Moses was a historical character. The 1972 edition was less skeptical.

Not that the second editions attitude is odd in academic or Jewish intellectual circles nowadays. Conservative Judaisms official Torah commentary (2001) says that what should concern Jews is not when, or even if, Moses lived, but what his life conveys in Israels saga. It calls Moses a folkloristic, national hero.

This fading Moses, of course, departs radically from long-standing tradition. The 13 Principles of the revered 12th-century sage Maimonides, for example, insisted that Moses lived as Judaisms supreme prophet through whom God gave the Torah. And the Book of Exodus, of course, recounts Moses career in considerable detail.

Orthodox Judaism further believes that Moses last will and testament in Deuteronomy affirms his role in writing the Bibles first five books and that he provided authoritative oral interpretations of these scriptures.

Sperling, however, writes that the biblical story of Moses birth contains generic elements that are discounted by historians and echo pagan legends. He deems passages on early adulthood historically unverifiable and says the exodus account was dramatically woven out of various strands of tradition. He thinks the credibility of the wilderness wanderings is undercut by discrepancies in the story and lack of confirmation from archaeology.
Sperling considers Moses authorship of the Pentateuch improbable due to inconsistency, variant repetitions, diversity in style and viewpoint and divergent historical presuppositions.

Still, Sperling allows that there might be a historical core in some biblical materials and doesnt flatly rule out Moses existence.

This treatment omits elaboration of opposite reasoning among Orthodox Jewish scholars, admittedly a minority.

Orthodox Rabbi Shalom Carmy of New Yorks Yeshiva University grants that historians have so far discovered no documentation on Moses apart from the biblical writings. He doesnt find this gap surprising and says scholars who make that argument fail to acknowledge that evidence corroborating ancient texts is very spotty.

But Carmy says the scriptures show familiarity with Egyptian culture and language. Conservative Protestants, including Britains K.A. Kitchen, agree on those points and provide further historical data to support the biblical scenario.

Summarizing the Jewish divide, Carmy observes that liberals hold the biblical text doubted until independently proven true, while for fellow traditionalists it is true unless conclusively disproved.

[princelh]

Wasn't the Arc that Noah built, discovered on a Mountain in Southeastern Europe 20 or so years ago?

[franko]

princelh said:

Wasn't the Arc that Noah built, discovered on a Mountain in Southeastern Europe 20 or so years ago?

No. They are still searching.

St. Louis is also doing a bit of a search . . . for a win.

[Skilly]

I just find it interesting that this man (Moses) is instrumental in the doctrine of 2 main stream religions (Judaism and Christianity) yet the only account of his life (and not a very reliable or detailed account either) is in the Bible. It is the only known book that mentions his name ... so did he exist? You would think for a man who led the Jews into the desert and the man who God delivered the Ten Commandments to that there would be more known about him.

One arguement I have read is centered around his ordinary birth. I am not sure I subscribe to that arguement. Abraham also had an ordinary birth and he is refered to in almost every religion, including Islam.

What do you think franko? Existed or not .... you know my feeling. The Bible is a glorified aesop fable, especially the old testament. But I am interested in your opinion.

[franko]

Since you asked . . . it is my opinion (there’s the caveat) and understanding that the Old Testament is written as history of the Jews, including the developing understanding of the Jewish religion. Do you want a crash course in Old Testament history? Sorry, can’t give you one in a thousand words or less. How about . . .

The three major monotheistic religions (all arose in the Middle East) all acknowledge Moses (Islam sees him as a prophet of God, but disputes that Moses pointed the true way to God – only Mohammed did). Abraham is the “father” of all of these religions:

	Abraham
Hagar		Sarah
Ishmael		Isaac
Mohammed		Moses
Islam		Judaism

You are right; little is known of Moses outside of Judaism. Most likely that is because Judaism was a minor religion that seemed unimportant to the countries around until Israel grew into more of a political powerhouse. Did he exist? Most likely. Did he write the Pentateuch (the first five books of the law)? Not so likely. In all probability these books were copied and edited and transposed by later scribes, so it is not “pure” history as much as it is oral history written later. Remember, there were no printing presses – and no need for them, as only the wealthy or learned were literate. And they weren’t news junkies as we are today!

As to the Old Testament being a fable, I think that you can dispute some of the writings of the first few books (the creation story, Lot’s wife and the pillar of salt, etc) and even some of the supernatural occurrences that happen later (that may or may not be able to be explained naturally), but to point to the whole Bible as one is too much of a blanket statement, especially since a lot of it is not history, but theology.

[duster]

One of the aspects of Moses that I find fascinating is the effect he may have had on Egypt or vice versa. Where did the concept of monotheism come from? If Moses did exist around or during the reign of Ahmose, what of Akhenaten's dramatic shift away from Memphis and Thebes much later at the end of the 18th Dynasty? Ahmose also took over an Egypt that was recovering from the Second Intermediate Period and Hyksos rule, was Moses and his fellow countrymen part of the Hyksos who were driven out? That would imply that monotheism was introduced to Egypt and the "let my people go" part of the story a mere fabrication or misinterpretation of events. And that would also mean the person of "Moses" could be fiction as well.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

Moses didn't exist.
The holicast never happened, and Traverse is better than Crosby.

[Toronthab]

habsfaninla said:

Moses didn't exist.
The holicast never happened, and Traverse is better than Crosby.

Crosby hasn't got a Hope..

I think that Abraham (form Ur? or do I err?)is generally credited with initiating monotheism.

The Jewish religion was the first to indicate God as the source of moral law.

[duster]

This is where things become problematic in terms of the historical and anthropological record, imo. Archaeological evidence and numerous biblical references show that the Hebrews started slowly moving away from polytheism around or after the first millenium B.C., which is some four hundred years or more after they left Egypt and three centuries after Akhenaten's adoption of monotheism. Yet Moses, meanwhile, is portrayed as monotheistic all along.

I'm thinking it's quite possible tribal lore may have simply come up with a suitable story for Exodus, Moses and the Ten Commandments several centuries after the events as the cult of Yahweh became exclusive (9th to 7th Century B.C.E), and a clear differentiation was being made with other Semites of the area and of the times ( e.g. Canaanites). There are numerous precedents for this sort of thing. The Epic of Gilgamesh and Noah come to mind as an adaptation of an existing Sumerian folk tale. Why not Moses?

cc.usu.edu/~fath6/bible.htm

[franko]

duster said:

I'm thinking it's quite possible tribal lore may have simply come up with a suitable story for Exodus, Moses and the Ten Commandments several centuries after the events as the cult of Yahweh became exclusive (9th to 7th Century B.C.E), and a clear differentiation was being made with other Semites of the area and of the times ( e.g. Canaanites). There are numerous precedents for this sort of thing. The Epic of Gilgamesh and Noah come to mind as an adaptation of an existing Sumerian folk tale. Why not Moses?

How can you suggest such things when Moses clearly wrote the Pentateuch? ;D

[Skilly]

duster said:

There are numerous precedents for this sort of thing. The Epic of Gilgamesh and Noah come to mind as an adaptation of an existing Sumerian folk tale. Why not Moses?

cc.usu.edu/~fath6/bible.htm

And why not everyone in the Bible for that matter? Folk tales, or as I like to call them "glorified Aesop's Fables".

[franko]

skilly said:

And why not everyone in the Bible for that matter? Folk tales, or as I like to call them "glorified Aesop's Fables".

An interesting perspective re: the Old Testament and myth and history

[Skilly]

franko said:

skilly said:

And why not everyone in the Bible for that matter? Folk tales, or as I like to call them "glorified Aesop's Fables".

An interesting perspective re: the Old Testament and myth and history

Long read ... and I read most of it.

The test of common sense? To me when you look at a Book, you can not say parts of it are myth, but these parts are true. That is selective analysis. When you look at the Book as a whole it does not stand up to the test of anything.

Can you imagine someone writing a statement to the police with inconsitencies and lies in it? Would it hold up in court? Obviously not. But we are forced to swear upon a book, which I have refused many times when going to vote, that wouldn't hold up to this same test. To me, if it is the Good Book, then it should be perfect like God (since it is the word of God). But it is written by man, and therefore it is not so good. And the embellishments in it give me doubts about all the other sections.


EDIT: And the reactions of the church also leave me wondering. For centuries, the church was adamant that the story of Adam and Eve was true. (Some still say today it is) But now when the prevailing notion of society is that is it viewed as myth, they simply shrug it off. Just like they fought the Big Bang Theory because they thought it denied the existence of God and held the Bible as lies/myths. Then they calmed down once they figured out they could say "Ok, but who created the Big Bang". Typical church ... we aren't wrong it is just misinterpreted.

[princelh]

There are missing scriptures, that were not included in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe in God, but there is something missing in the Bible, that holds a mystery to this day. I also wonder, what is the true Christianity. They say the Bible is the Good Book, but I also see it as a book of War. It is not everything to be nice, to be a Christian, but also be on guard and fight for what is right and just. This is why we have this belief in our court system, here in North America. But that is an argument for another day and another thread.

[franko]

princelh said:

There are missing scriptures, that were not included in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe in God, but there is something missing in the Bible, that holds a mystery to this day. I also wonder, what is the true Christianity. They say the Bible is the Good Book, but I also see it as a book of War. It is not everything to be nice, to be a Christian, but also be on guard and fight for what is right and just. This is why we have this belief in our court system, here in North America. But that is an argument for another day and another thread.

Do I really want to get into this again? [obviously] I've been trying to keep it light, and somewhat intellectually based (though of course [my] faith does colour my perspective).

Many gospels were written. Many interpretations of Jesus were put forward. Finally a conclave was gatherd and after much discussion (some of it acrimonious) much of what was written of was dismissed as being poor understanding of Jesus, and the 4 Gospels we now have were deemed as "the best" (note the quotation marks) history possible of the life of Jesus (though admittedly not perfect) and the letters kept "the best" theological teaching interpreted. Has it been laid out for us? Definitely not, which is why there are so many churches, and why theological discussion continues.

The mystery is that we do not and cannot understand God (the Bible itself calls Him indescribable; yet we try to make Him fit in our mortal understanding).

True Christianity? Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction In other words, it is a life lives where the needs of others take precedence. I fear we -- I -- fail miserably all too often.

The Bible does indeed have themes of war in it. But we Christians are a people of the New Testament. Jesus is the Prince of Peace, proclaiming hope to the hopeless. In fact, nowhere does he say that we are to fight for what is right and just. Rather, He says that we should lay down our lives for others. Which is why I think that Bush blew it going into Afghanistan. Patriotism is not the same as Christianity (and boy did I hear about that when we had some folks from the US over for Thanksgiving just after 9-11). But as you say, that is an argument for another day and another thread. But let me say this: Jesus did not preach retribution, but reconciliation.

[Skilly]

princelh said:

There are missing scriptures, that were not included in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe in God, but there is something missing in the Bible, that holds a mystery to this day. I also wonder, what is the true Christianity. They say the Bible is the Good Book, but I also see it as a book of War. It is not everything to be nice, to be a Christian, but also be on guard and fight for what is right and just. This is why we have this belief in our court system, here in North America. But that is an argument for another day and another thread.

Jesus, during his Sermon on the Mount, rephrasing the Law of Moses, said to his disciples:

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. .....

..... For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou ashalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid athe uttermost farthing. ........

..... Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


I was once a fairly religious young kid ....In grade six I was challenged to a fight by a bigger guy. I refused to fight and when he struck me, I offered him the other cheek. I took the teaching too far I realize, but I kind of feel my point was proven .... how happy he must have felt to beat on an unwilling person, I think more people thought him to be an @ss after that. But I was always the type of person who would argue vehemently with someone and then 5 minutes later all that was said was like water off a duck's back and ask them to go out for a drink or something.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

skilly said:

I just find it interesting that this man (Moses) is instrumental in the doctrine of 2 main stream religions (Judaism and Christianity) yet the only account of his life (and not a very reliable or detailed account either) is in the Bible. It is the only known book that mentions his name ... so did he exist? You would think for a man who led the Jews into the desert and the man who God delivered the Ten Commandments to that there would be more known about him.

One arguement I have read is centered around his ordinary birth. I am not sure I subscribe to that arguement. Abraham also had an ordinary birth and he is refered to in almost every religion, including Islam.

What do you think franko? Existed or not .... you know my feeling. The Bible is a glorified aesop fable, especially the old testament. But I am interested in your opinion.

Moses did exist.
When he got old he was traded for a rookie with tremendous skills, Jesus of Nazareth Jr's.
Jesus was later traded for Mohammud (no photo) who has demonstrated good fighting skills, but very little scoring.

[franko]

habsfaninla said:

skilly said:

I just find it interesting that this man (Moses) is instrumental in the doctrine of 2 main stream religions (Judaism and Christianity) yet the only account of his life (and not a very reliable or detailed account either) is in the Bible. It is the only known book that mentions his name ... so did he exist? You would think for a man who led the Jews into the desert and the man who God delivered the Ten Commandments to that there would be more known about him.

One arguement I have read is centered around his ordinary birth. I am not sure I subscribe to that arguement. Abraham also had an ordinary birth and he is refered to in almost every religion, including Islam.

What do you think franko? Existed or not .... you know my feeling. The Bible is a glorified aesop fable, especially the old testament. But I am interested in your opinion.

Moses did exist.
When he got old he was traded for a rookie with tremendous skills, Jesus of Nazareth Jr's.
Jesus was later traded for Mohammud (no photo) who has demonstrated good fighting skills, but very little scoring.

No scoring? He had four wives! Jesus, on the other hand, was shut out (unless you believe Dan Brown).

[Skilly]

franko said:

habsfaninla said:

Moses did exist.
When he got old he was traded for a rookie with tremendous skills, Jesus of Nazareth Jr's.
Jesus was later traded for Mohammud (no photo) who has demonstrated good fighting skills, but very little scoring.

No scoring? He had four wives! Jesus, on the other hand, was shut out (unless you believe Dan Brown).

Well we are dealing with a very inequitable deity than arent we ...?

We are all children of God, so God did quite a bit of scoring ... and if Jesus and God are one and the same .... well ....

[franko]

skilly said:

franko said:

No scoring? He had four wives! Jesus, on the other hand, was shut out (unless you believe Dan Brown).

Well we are dealing with a very inequitable deity than arent we ...?

We are all children of God, so God did quite a bit of scoring ... and if Jesus and God are one and the same .... well ....

Good one . . . but I think for the most part He just gets assists.

The one . . . ah, let's not start. ;D

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

skilly said:

franko said:

No scoring? He had four wives! Jesus, on the other hand, was shut out (unless you believe Dan Brown).

Well we are dealing with a very inequitable deity than arent we ...?

We are all children of God, so God did quite a bit of scoring ... and if Jesus and God are one and the same .... well ....

That avatar looks like a cross between Saddam and Mohammud. Are we deliberately trying to offend???



Skrew them, offend away!

[Skilly]

habsfaninla said:

skilly said:

Well we are dealing with a very inequitable deity than arent we ...?

We are all children of God, so God did quite a bit of scoring ... and if Jesus and God are one and the same .... well ....

That avatar looks like a cross between Saddam and Mohammud. Are we deliberately trying to offend???



Skrew them, offend away!

LMAO!!!

It is actually Captain Haddock, from the Adventures of Tintin. He has a good heart, but a very short fuse and opinionated .... hmmmm describe anyone we/you know?

My daughter and I were at the library the other day and when we checked out her books she had 17 children's books. My wife said she could have 18 ... my duaghter said "But daddy doesn't have a book ... so she went over to the shelf and got me "Charlotte's Web" .. right next to it was a 3 in 1 edition of Tintin. I hadnt read them in 20 years .... so I asked her if daddy could have Tintin ... god love her she picked it up and gave it to me .... read all three in one night (with a big smile). Captain Haddock is too funny, ... as a youngster I never realized the translation errors ....but they dont take away from the stories at all.

[clear observer]

I once had a dishwasher named Moses.....he was a huge Habs fan, too!


CO

[Toronthab]

admin said:

I once had a dishwasher named Moses.....he was a huge Habs fan, too!


CO

I just read your signature at the bottom of your posts. Killer! HAHAHAHAHA!

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

franko said:

habsfaninla said:

Moses did exist.
When he got old he was traded for a rookie with tremendous skills, Jesus of Nazareth Jr's.
Jesus was later traded for Mohammud (no photo) who has demonstrated good fighting skills, but very little scoring.

No scoring? He had four wives! Jesus, on the other hand, was shut out (unless you believe Dan Brown).

Didn't he end up taking his mother to the Grad dance and wasn't she one of the four?