Jesus and his lover sighted ...err...again?

[Toronthab]

Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water...when will these greedy scam artists develop a shred of decency. I find this kind of thing really disgusting.

Canadian Naked Archeologist, er film director "finds " the Jesus family, well actually, he finds the old BBC show with the same dumbass nonsense, and away he goes.

How Jesus and oh ya, Mary Magdelene (of the so called gnostic nonsense gospel of Phillip) ended up in the tomb (The apostles apparently missed the presumed wedding ) with several generations of some wealthy Jewish family as Jesus was inconveniently not from the area, is not addressed. That Mary was held to be buried elsewhere and Joseph in Galilee adds further amusement.

Enough already. I've seen a lot of slickly presented slop, but, the lack of integrity it takes to proffer such crap so tendentiously speaks volumes of the incredible power of greed.


Christ's tomb found?
PHOTO COURTESY DISCOVERY CHANNEL


Canadian filmmaker claims burial boxes belonged to Christ's family
Feb 25, 2007 05:34 PM
Stuart Laidlaw
Faith and Ethics reporter

A Canadian documentary filmmaker will reveal at a news conference Monday that he has strong evidence a group of burial boxes unearthed in Jerusalem belonged to Jesus Christ and his family.

The discovery could have profound implications 2,000 years after the boxes were placed in the ground, shaking the foundations of modern faith and raising Da-Vinci-Code-like speculation that Jesus had a child with Mary Magdalene.

www.thestar.com/News/article/185534




www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1171894508893


But Bar-Ilan University Prof. Amos Kloner, the Jerusalem District archeologist who officially oversaw the work at the tomb in 1980 and has published detailed findings on its contents, on Saturday night dismissed the claims. "It makes a great story for a TV film," he told The Jerusalem Post.



"But it's impossible. It's nonsense."

tinyurl.com/yu27q6



Kloner, who said he was interviewed for the new film but has not seen it, said the names found on the ossuaries were common, and the fact that such apparently resonant names had been found together was of no significance. He added that "Jesus son of Joseph" inscriptions had been found on several other ossuaries over the years.

"There is no likelihood that Jesus and his relatives had a family tomb," Kloner said. "They were a Galilee family with no ties in Jerusalem. The Talpiot tomb belonged to a middle-class family from the 1st century CE."

A spokeswoman for the Israel Antiquities Authority had no comment herself on the documentary and referred inquiries to Kloner, who no longer works for the IAA.

The spokeswoman did say, however, that the IAA has loaned out two of the ossuaries that were found in the Talpiot tomb for display by the filmmakers at Monday's New York press conference. She said it was a routine procedure to lend out such artifacts provided the borrowers complied with the necessary handling, transport and insurance requirements and that it did not signal any IAA authentication of claims made in the documentary.

Kloner said the IAA had been "very foolish" to agree to the loan. "The left hand there doesn't know what the right hand is doing," he said.

The Daily Telegraph reported this weekend that the 10 ossuaries removed from the tomb when it was first excavated "were taken initially to the Rockefeller Archaeological Museum outside the Old City of Jerusalem. Nine were catalogued and stored but the tenth was left outside in a courtyard. That ossuary has subsequently gone missing."

But Kloner said the IAA routinely left ossuaries in the courtyard if they were not inscribed and were unremarkable, since it had no room for them all "under our roofs." He added: "Nothing has disappeared."

The Jacobovici documentary comes more than 10 years after similar speculation about the so-called Jesus family tomb made world headlines, prompting a London Sunday Times feature entitled "The Tomb that Dare Not Speak Its Name" and a BBC documentary.

The assertion that the ossuaries found in the Talpiot tomb were those of Jesus of Nazareth and family members was branded by The Sunday Times at the time as an archeological discovery "that challenges the very basis of Christianity."

The makers of the documentary are refusing to discuss its content prior to their New York press conference.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

toronthab said:

Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water...when will these greedy scam artists develop a shred of decency. I find this kind of thing really disgusting.

Canadian Naked Archeologist, er film director "finds " the Jesus family, well actually, he finds the old BBC show with the same dumbass nonsense, and away he goes.

How Jesus and oh ya, Mary Magdelene (of the so called gnostic nonsense gospel of Phillip) ended up in the tomb (The apostles apparently missed the presumed wedding ) with several generations of some wealthy Jewish family as Jesus was inconveniently not from the area, is not addressed. That Mary was held to be buried elsewhere and Joseph in Galilee adds further amusement.

Enough already. I've seen a lot of slickly presented slop, but, the lack of integrity it takes to proffer such crap so tendentiously speaks volumes of the incredible power of greed.


Christ's tomb found?
PHOTO COURTESY DISCOVERY CHANNEL


Canadian filmmaker claims burial boxes belonged to Christ's family
Feb 25, 2007 05:34 PM
Stuart Laidlaw
Faith and Ethics reporter

A Canadian documentary filmmaker will reveal at a news conference Monday that he has strong evidence a group of burial boxes unearthed in Jerusalem belonged to Jesus Christ and his family.

The discovery could have profound implications 2,000 years after the boxes were placed in the ground, shaking the foundations of modern faith and raising Da-Vinci-Code-like speculation that Jesus had a child with Mary Magdalene.

www.thestar.com/News/article/185534




www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1171894508893


But Bar-Ilan University Prof. Amos Kloner, the Jerusalem District archeologist who officially oversaw the work at the tomb in 1980 and has published detailed findings on its contents, on Saturday night dismissed the claims. "It makes a great story for a TV film," he told The Jerusalem Post.



"But it's impossible. It's nonsense."

tinyurl.com/yu27q6



Kloner, who said he was interviewed for the new film but has not seen it, said the names found on the ossuaries were common, and the fact that such apparently resonant names had been found together was of no significance. He added that "Jesus son of Joseph" inscriptions had been found on several other ossuaries over the years.

"There is no likelihood that Jesus and his relatives had a family tomb," Kloner said. "They were a Galilee family with no ties in Jerusalem. The Talpiot tomb belonged to a middle-class family from the 1st century CE."

A spokeswoman for the Israel Antiquities Authority had no comment herself on the documentary and referred inquiries to Kloner, who no longer works for the IAA.

The spokeswoman did say, however, that the IAA has loaned out two of the ossuaries that were found in the Talpiot tomb for display by the filmmakers at Monday's New York press conference. She said it was a routine procedure to lend out such artifacts provided the borrowers complied with the necessary handling, transport and insurance requirements and that it did not signal any IAA authentication of claims made in the documentary.

Kloner said the IAA had been "very foolish" to agree to the loan. "The left hand there doesn't know what the right hand is doing," he said.

The Daily Telegraph reported this weekend that the 10 ossuaries removed from the tomb when it was first excavated "were taken initially to the Rockefeller Archaeological Museum outside the Old City of Jerusalem. Nine were catalogued and stored but the tenth was left outside in a courtyard. That ossuary has subsequently gone missing."

But Kloner said the IAA routinely left ossuaries in the courtyard if they were not inscribed and were unremarkable, since it had no room for them all "under our roofs." He added: "Nothing has disappeared."

The Jacobovici documentary comes more than 10 years after similar speculation about the so-called Jesus family tomb made world headlines, prompting a London Sunday Times feature entitled "The Tomb that Dare Not Speak Its Name" and a BBC documentary.

The assertion that the ossuaries found in the Talpiot tomb were those of Jesus of Nazareth and family members was branded by The Sunday Times at the time as an archeological discovery "that challenges the very basis of Christianity."

The makers of the documentary are refusing to discuss its content prior to their New York press conference.

I'm not losing a lot of sleep over this one.
I am not familiar with that of which you speak.
If the shroud or Turin was or was not authentic, does it make any difference?
If the scrolls were or weren't genuine, does it make Moses any more real.
I guess I'm too involved with serious matters like the Rivet trade, the Toronto game, Brittney Spears hair and Anna Nicole Smith's remains to worry about these things.

[Toronthab]

Tomb theory raises hackles

KATHY WILLENS / AP PHOTO

Simcha Jacobovici, left, points to an ossuary he believes may have held the bones of Mary Magdalene, next to producer James Cameron.



Filmmakers unveil 'tombs'

True or not, `Lost Tomb' tale is never dull

Documentary claims bone boxes found in 1980 held remains of Jesus, Mary Magdalene
Feb 27, 2007 04:30 AM
Stuart Laidlaw

FAITH AND ETHICS REPORTER

Ten years ago, James Cameron was collecting an Oscar for Titanic. Today, he stands accused of trying to sink Christianity.

www.thestar.com/News/article/186049

He and fellow Canadian Simcha Jacobovici are coming under scathing criticism for claiming in their latest film to have unearthed the burial site of Jesus under an suburban Jerusalem apartment building – far from the place revered as such for almost 1,700 years.

"The historical, religious and archaeological evidence show that the place where Christ was buried is the Church of the Resurrection," said Attallah Hana, a Greek Orthodox clergyman in Jerusalem. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre, as it is also known, was built within the walled city of Old Jerusalem in about 330 A.D., over the reputed site of Jesus's crucifixion, burial and resurrection.

A new documentary, The Lost Tomb of Jesus, however, claims the true burial site is in the southern suburb of Talpiot, rural in biblical times.

At a news conference in New York yesterday, Cameron and Jacobovici unveiled two ossuaries found in the tomb that they claim once held the remains of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. DNA pulled from them shows the occupants were unrelated – suggesting they were married, the film claims.

And, in a Da Vinci Code-like twist being dismissed by scholars and theologians alike, the film claims Jesus fathered a child with Mary Magdalene, based on the inscription on a third box: "Judah son of Jesus."

Cameron denied he is trying to debunk 2,000 years of Christian tradition. "I'm not a theologist. I'm not an archaeologist. I'm a documentary filmmaker," he told NBC's Today show.

A spokesperson for the Catholic Church in Canada said the claims won't stand up to scrutiny any more than Don Brown's novel The Da Vinci Code.

"We're an easy target and a large target," Neil McCarthy, a public relations officer for the Archdiocese of Toronto, told the Star. "It's another example of filmmakers cashing in on conspiracy theories."

But McCarthy welcomes a chance for the faithful to debate their beliefs, as they did when the Da Vinci film was released.

Scholars have been quick to dismiss the documentary. "I don't think that Christians are going to buy into this,'' said Stephen Pfann, a biblical scholar at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem, who appears in the film.

"But skeptics, in general, would like to see something that pokes holes into the story that so many people hold dear." The claims have drawn a flurry of attention since Israeli radio reported late last week that the Jesus and Mary ossuaries were on a plane to New York.

"Kapuskasing boy discovers Jesus family tomb," read a headline on the Sault Ste. Marie Star website, putting a local spin on the global story. A New York Times website blog accused Cameron of "raising the Titanic, (and) sinking Christianity."

Those who have worked with the ossuaries since they were found by a building crew in 1980 have been the most critical.

"Simcha has no credibility whatsoever," Joe Zias, former curator for anthropology and archeology at Jerusalem's Rockefeller Museum, told Newsweek. "He's pimping off the Bible," he said, dismissing the film as unprofessional. The tomb and 10 ossuaries found inside were first linked to the holy family in a 1996 BBC documentary. Then, as now, archaeologists dismissed a link to Jesus's family by saying the names on the six burial boxes with inscriptions – Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Matthew, Judah and Mariamne (interpreted by Jacobovici as Mary Magdalene) – were very common at the time.

But University of Toronto statistician Andrey Feuerverger, hired for the $4 million documentary, calculated the chances against those names randomly showing up together at 600 to 1.

The Lost Tomb airs on March 6 on Vision TV. A book, The Jesus Family Tomb, is out this week.

With files from Associated Press

[Toronthab]

I find this cashing in on the burial of Christ, and I haven't a reasonable doubt to the contrary to be about as low as a person can go, a share in the thirty pieces of silver.

It's interesting to read the really dumb comments that accompany the Star's piece on this. Apparently threy're into tabloid journalism now.

People are trumpeting their ignorance with such standard canards as the ever popular conspiracy theories and the dogmaticism of naive atheistic materialism, imagining that science has undermined theism religious tenets. They should do a lot more reading.

Much more serious is the attack, and it most definitely an attack, on the more fragile faith of those more easily swayed by slick presentations and moronic North Carolina professors along for the ride. There is a real harm done to such as these, and a lot of people's prayers for loved ones lost and sick children will be more troubled because of these dirtbags, networks and media who resent the moral teachings of Christianity (which I too regularly find inconvenient of course) , and a gullible and credulous culture.

That it employs the same goofball junk of the gnostic "gospel" of Phillip which as I recall asks women to shed their femaleness to become the sacred male along with the Magdelene hot romance bull$it ices the cake for moron fodder.

Tomb theory raises hackles

KATHY WILLENS / AP PHOTO

Simcha Jacobovici, left, points to an ossuary he believes may have held the bones of Mary Magdalene, next to producer James Cameron.



Filmmakers unveil 'tombs'

True or not, `Lost Tomb' tale is never dull

Documentary claims bone boxes found in 1980 held remains of Jesus, Mary Magdalene
Feb 27, 2007 04:30 AM
Stuart Laidlaw

FAITH AND ETHICS REPORTER

Ten years ago, James Cameron was collecting an Oscar for Titanic. Today, he stands accused of trying to sink Christianity.

www.thestar.com/News/article/186049

He and fellow Canadian Simcha Jacobovici are coming under scathing criticism for claiming in their latest film to have unearthed the burial site of Jesus under an suburban Jerusalem apartment building – far from the place revered as such for almost 1,700 years.

"The historical, religious and archaeological evidence show that the place where Christ was buried is the Church of the Resurrection," said Attallah Hana, a Greek Orthodox clergyman in Jerusalem. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre, as it is also known, was built within the walled city of Old Jerusalem in about 330 A.D., over the reputed site of Jesus's crucifixion, burial and resurrection.

A new documentary, The Lost Tomb of Jesus, however, claims the true burial site is in the southern suburb of Talpiot, rural in biblical times.

At a news conference in New York yesterday, Cameron and Jacobovici unveiled two ossuaries found in the tomb that they claim once held the remains of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. DNA pulled from them shows the occupants were unrelated – suggesting they were married, the film claims.

And, in a Da Vinci Code-like twist being dismissed by scholars and theologians alike, the film claims Jesus fathered a child with Mary Magdalene, based on the inscription on a third box: "Judah son of Jesus."

Cameron denied he is trying to debunk 2,000 years of Christian tradition. "I'm not a theologist. I'm not an archaeologist. I'm a documentary filmmaker," he told NBC's Today show.

A spokesperson for the Catholic Church in Canada said the claims won't stand up to scrutiny any more than Don Brown's novel The Da Vinci Code.

"We're an easy target and a large target," Neil McCarthy, a public relations officer for the Archdiocese of Toronto, told the Star. "It's another example of filmmakers cashing in on conspiracy theories."

But McCarthy welcomes a chance for the faithful to debate their beliefs, as they did when the Da Vinci film was released.

Scholars have been quick to dismiss the documentary. "I don't think that Christians are going to buy into this,'' said Stephen Pfann, a biblical scholar at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem, who appears in the film.

"But skeptics, in general, would like to see something that pokes holes into the story that so many people hold dear." The claims have drawn a flurry of attention since Israeli radio reported late last week that the Jesus and Mary ossuaries were on a plane to New York.

"Kapuskasing boy discovers Jesus family tomb," read a headline on the Sault Ste. Marie Star website, putting a local spin on the global story. A New York Times website blog accused Cameron of "raising the Titanic, (and) sinking Christianity."

Those who have worked with the ossuaries since they were found by a building crew in 1980 have been the most critical.

"Simcha has no credibility whatsoever," Joe Zias, former curator for anthropology and archeology at Jerusalem's Rockefeller Museum, told Newsweek. "He's pimping off the Bible," he said, dismissing the film as unprofessional. The tomb and 10 ossuaries found inside were first linked to the holy family in a 1996 BBC documentary. Then, as now, archaeologists dismissed a link to Jesus's family by saying the names on the six burial boxes with inscriptions – Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Matthew, Judah and Mariamne (interpreted by Jacobovici as Mary Magdalene) – were very common at the time.

But University of Toronto statistician Andrey Feuerverger, hired for the $4 million documentary, calculated the chances against those names randomly showing up together at 600 to 1.

The Lost Tomb airs on March 6 on Vision TV. A book, The Jesus Family Tomb, is out this week.

With files from Associated Press

Incidentally, I realize (dimly) that to a person utterly unfamiliar with the those treasure troves of cleverness called the gnostic "gospels" which should for the most part have been named cartoons, with their boy Jesus floating in the air doodlebug motifs, some of this stuff introduced by accredited scholars can aquire a patina of integrity and credibility.

Buyer beware. While there are indeed highly credulous people who fiercely and irrationally hold on to literalist interpretations of the bible, these people, many of whom are just trying to do what they think is right according to what they mistakenly think God is demanding of them, there is a much larger group of people who naively buy into philosophical atheism masquerading as "science", and very often are led by people who haven't a clue that they too are mentally bound by 17th century enlightenment dogmatism.

Bigoted dogmatics, and he is both of these things like world famous neurophysiologist Dawkins can vent away in subject matters they know next to nothing about, even the basics, and Stephen Hawkings can babble away in his world best seller "Brief History of Time" on matters he knows nothing about as well, and us poor dupes gobble it up because it comes from a guy who's good at math, but somehow failed to consider the implications of Goedel's theorem on his work, while Dawkins fails to realize that it only applies to closed arguments.

Goedel's theorem incidentally proves that it is impossible in principle to arrive at certain ultimate models in the entire study of physics.

Hawkings was just made aware of the implications of this 1929 proof recently.

Dummies who lead the world they know not where.

End of rant......(temporarily, for it is my favourite).

[franko]

Why bother to react? The Church has been undera attack for 2,000⁺ years and will continue to be.

I see nothing wrong with healthy dialogue and debate. That which is proved wrong soon disappears. otoh, to continue to argue the controversy merely keeps the issue in the limelight. Let it fade.

One further thing: people actually [o]look[/i] for a reason to walk away from "the faith" -- they'll eventually find something if they want to. We are called to follow; not compelled.

[Skilly]

Ok ... what is an ossuary?

And ... if there is no contention or denying the fact that a tomb is found with the names of Jesus, Mary, Joseph inscribed on it ..... well how common was the name Jesus back then and how many of them could have been buried with relations named Mary and Joseph.

The thing that intriques me ... and I would like to see more of an explanation then "it was a common thing back then" was an explanation for the names appearing in the same tomb along with "Judah son of Jesus" (and wouldn't that be just like Christ to name his son after the man who would betray him).

I really have no opinion on it .... really it is a "who cares" news stroy to me. But anytime something comes up that questions history, people it affects will shrug it off and deny ... so even if it is true (who really knows, really) whats the point.

[franko]

skilly said:

Ok ... what is an ossuary?

A box that bones are buried in; a fancy coffin.

And ... if there is no contention or denying the fact that a tomb is found with the names of Jesus, Mary, Joseph inscribed on it ..... well how common was the name Jesus back then and how many of them could have been buried with relations named Mary and Joseph.

Jesus was actually a common name. Sort of like Michael today. As was Mary.

I really have no opinion on it .... really it is a "who cares" news stroy to me. But anytime something comes up that questions history, people it affects will shrug it off and deny ... so even if it is true (who really knows, really) whats the point.

Well, Skilly, that is the crux of the matter. Traditional Christinaity points to a resurrection and an ascention. Find the bones of Jesus and there goes the central point of Christianity. Even Paul acknowledged that: if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God . . . if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile [size-1]1 Corinthians 15:14-15, 17[/size]

[Skilly]

Not sure I understand .... I liken it to the Big Bang Theory. For years the church fought it saying that the Bible is infallible as the word of God. But they lessened their stance when someone offered the question "Ok, so who allowed the Big Bang to happen?" (a very intelligent, succint question)

Now, let's say for debate's sake, that these are the bones of Christ ... (and for the record there is no way in the world that can be proven, only through the inscriptions - its not like they have DNA to compare it too) ... where in the Bible does it say that Christ's earthly body (bones and all) rose from the dead. Mary M touched his hands, but God being God, it is possible for him to have his Son raise from the dead and still have him 'solid" (read, not a ghost). His soul so to speak. I know the Bible says the tomb was empty ... but come on it is the Bible and there are erorrs and misinterpretations throughout.

Even I, as a non-Biblical believers can see that God could do this ... to me it doesn't mean a thing if it is Jesus' bones. I also don't see the big deal if Jesus had a family ... this revelation will stop people believing in something that they hold so dear? Come on ... I don't believe in Santa but it doesn't stop me from telling my daughter he exists (and apart of me thinks he does exist when I see the good people do - too bad it is only that time of year though)

[Toronthab]

franko said:

Why bother to react? The Church has been undera attack for 2,000⁺ years and will continue to be.

I see nothing wrong with healthy dialogue and debate. That which is proved wrong soon disappears. otoh, to continue to argue the controversy merely keeps the issue in the limelight. Let it fade.

One further thing: people actually [o]look

[/i] for a reason to walk away from "the faith" -- they'll eventually find something if they want to. We are called to follow; not compelled.

[/quote]

Actually Franko, for me, I couldn't care less. This is moron fodder. But it is also a massive, greed - driven fraud that once again, would rob the world of its history. One can hardly engage in more serious fraud.

I have an image of some poor ghetto mother struggling with poverty and unemployment and street gangs offering up a little quiet and pained prayer with more than a little desperation ...and then experiencing a little blow to the heart because of this dirtbag fraud.

Some good and simple people will be hurt in their souls by this huckster scumbag and his sociopathic greed.

This is absolutely no threat to the church per se, and perhaps a good illustration of what "serious documentary" films too often are. It's a joke on a formal level and an amusing commentary on our vapid media and cultural feebleness.

But some poor souls will suffer, while the easily duped will find their facile judgements affirmed, and they'll teach their kids every thing they've learned.

I think I have perhaps a heightened sense of the immense damage of cultural fraud, and it makes my blood boil.

I don't mind that Skilly doesn't grasp the import of what is constituted in the idea of a necessary cause...hey....that's Skilly...he flounders... ;D, and I don't mind rigorous honest debate. That is a beautiful thing and I love it (Too much: Im a debate slut.)

It is virtually impossible for a sane and reasonable mind to view the "evidence " this slimer brings and not see through the bull$hit. It is just too utterly stupid, so I know this guy is lying and defrauding , just like Dan Brown. that is not to say, that many won't be suckered into it, just as is the case with Brown's bull$hit, but anyone with the smallest bit of familiarity with the relevant data, will likely experience disgust.

[Toronthab]

skilly said:

Ok ... what is an ossuary?

And ... if there is no contention or denying the fact that a tomb is found with the names of Jesus, Mary, Joseph inscribed on it ..... well how common was the name Jesus back then and how many of them could have been buried with relations named Mary and Joseph.

The thing that intriques me ... and I would like to see more of an explanation then "it was a common thing back then" was an explanation for the names appearing in the same tomb along with "Judah son of Jesus" (and wouldn't that be just like Christ to name his son after the man who would betray him).

I really have no opinion on it .... really it is a "who cares" news stroy to me. But anytime something comes up that questions history, people it affects will shrug it off and deny ... so even if it is true (who really knows, really) whats the point.

The joke from the archaeologist who oversaw the project was that it is the tomb of several generations of a probably wealthy Jerusalem family.

Jesus was not from Jerusalem. He would not have had several generations there.

It of course hits the same dumbass nonsense of the so called "gospel" of Phillip, a completely derivative item totally dismissed by virtually all serious scholars as a typical "gnostic i.e. cult group claiming a special "knowledge" for the select few > It's horsepucky, and when Dan Brown uses it for his "sacred feminine" come on to his target audience, gullible female thirty faive year olds, he leaves out the part that says that for a woman to acheive perfection she must become the sacred male.

This fraud also uses the same junk which is where the Magdelene sexual relationship with Jesus comes from.

The DNA nonsense is beyond pathetic.


It will fool a lot of people who don't know any better and serve the forces of ignorance and confusion. It will hurt many, many people and make a farcical lie of world history. The scumbag.

[Toronthab]

skilly said:

Not sure I understand .... I liken it to the Big Bang Theory. For years the church fought it saying that the Bible is infallible as the word of God. But they lessened their stance when someone offered the question "Ok, so who allowed the Big Bang to happen?" (a very intelligent, succint question)

Now, let's say for debate's sake, that these are the bones of Christ ... (and for the record there is no way in the world that can be proven, only through the inscriptions - its not like they have DNA to compare it too) ... where in the Bible does it say that Christ's earthly body (bones and all) rose from the dead. Mary M touched his hands, but God being God, it is possible for him to have his Son raise from the dead and still have him 'solid" (read, not a ghost). His soul so to speak. I know the Bible says the tomb was empty ... but come on it is the Bible and there are erorrs and misinterpretations throughout.

Even I, as a non-Biblical believers can see that God could do this ... to me it doesn't mean a thing if it is Jesus' bones. I also don't see the big deal if Jesus had a family ... this revelation will stop people believing in something that they hold so dear? Come on ... I don't believe in Santa but it doesn't stop me from telling my daughter he exists (and apart of me thinks he does exist when I see the good people do - too bad it is only that time of year though)

Skilly, the Big Bang theory was actually the work of a Catholic priest. I think his name was Laplace.

Your idea of the relationship between science and the Catholic churh is almost the exact reverse of the actual situation.

While it is true that "sola scriptura" or bible fundamentalists did and still do draw false theology and false science from the bible, catholicism in western civilization in europe has never adopted a strictly literalist interpretation of the bible.

Even Galileo's case was not a reductio to fundamentalism. Galileo invoked the sun to explain tidal phenomena and there were real difficulties with techincal aspects.

He was using the work of Copernicus, who was himself a canon of the church, and even in the 4th century, Saint Augustine who was an astounding genius of a man, knew that a day to God could be like a thousand years.


Since the so-called enlightenment, it has been the disengenuous habit of "rationalists" to portray the church not as the mother and source of science, but as somehow and in complete reversal of historical fact, an actual enemy. That's about as big a lie as you can tell of western history, in part, in the English world, because english history was often written by protestant, agnostic or other sources, who didn't much encompass much of the history of their Catholic ancestors.

It was in just this manner that the "Spanish Inquisition" became most unjustly a grossly exagerated whip with which to scourge the church. In fact the procedures of "inquiry" and the considerable developments of defendents' rights were a model for the development of juridical procedure in the west.

It is in fact bizarre how the contributions to the west and the world are hidden. Everyone thinks of Galileo, an instance of conflicting jurisdictions. not the building of the universities of Oxford, Paris, Genoa, Salamenca.

Intellectual freedom within very reasonable bounds was the ordinary standard. and when cathedrals were built, they were built in such a way as to have a beam of light appear at exact spots to assist in astronomical calculations and experiments.

Many of the founders and fathers of the sciences were in fact priests, like the founder of geology, Riccoli, modern atomic theory by Father Roger Boscovich, and seismology is still referred to as "the Jesuit science". Modern genetics was also founded by another priest.

Hardly anti-scientific, but rather at the forefront of the development of knowledge in the west. Over thirty vrates of the moon are named after Jesuit scientists and mathematicians .

Thsi is not something Galileo taught the church, science is something the church taught Galileo.

There is an unhealthy fascination with whatever dirt can be dug out of history vis a vis the church, and a near total ignorance of the heritage we have received from our ancestors, most of whom were catholic, and who built this world.

Thsi is not to make light of the Greco-Roman heritage, which was itself first saved from extinction, and embraced and much expanded, but the framework and the actual persons and the actual development of centres of study, scholas and universities were a marvelous works of the monasteries church.

And that is but a part of the story of our ancestors and their history.

[Toronthab]

skilly said:

Not sure I understand .... I liken it to the Big Bang Theory. For years the church fought it saying that the Bible is infallible as the word of God. But they lessened their stance when someone offered the question "Ok, so who allowed the Big Bang to happen?" (a very intelligent, succint question)

Now, let's say for debate's sake, that these are the bones of Christ ... (and for the record there is no way in the world that can be proven, only through the inscriptions - its not like they have DNA to compare it too) ... where in the Bible does it say that Christ's earthly body (bones and all) rose from the dead. Mary M touched his hands, but God being God, it is possible for him to have his Son raise from the dead and still have him 'solid" (read, not a ghost). His soul so to speak. I know the Bible says the tomb was empty ... but come on it is the Bible and there are erorrs and misinterpretations throughout.

Even I, as a non-Biblical believers can see that God could do this ... to me it doesn't mean a thing if it is Jesus' bones. I also don't see the big deal if Jesus had a family ... this revelation will stop people believing in something that they hold so dear? Come on ... I don't believe in Santa but it doesn't stop me from telling my daughter he exists (and apart of me thinks he does exist when I see the good people do - too bad it is only that time of year though)

The church does not teach that the Bible is the infallible word of God, if by this you are suggseting that you or I can pick up a bible, which is the collection of scriptures considered and declared to be the canon or inspired and authoritive writings of the Catholic church, read it and know all truth, The authority of the apostles and their consecrated bishops of whom, some were in direct successiojn to the apostles have the duty and authority to teach and instruct. Sacred scripture does indeeed contain the self-revelation of God, but a narrow literalism has never been the position of the church vis a vis the bible.

That's not to say you, me and some churchleaders sometimes misuse or misapply it, but legitimate debates about a heliocentric universe, for instance are legitiamtely undertaken

Doctrine develops in Catholicism, in other words, truths are uncovered, things that were there from the outset.

My point is that I am not a "Bible Christian" in the standard cultural sense of the phrase. I specificlly disagee with that position as unhistorical and not founded by Christ or the church. Note that I speak of doctrine, not the validity of the faith and personal integrity of the individuals who are so described. Neither do I deny such persons and churches the honorific "Christian".

But be aware that the vast majority of the 33 % of the world that calls itself Christian are not so-called Bible Christians". The great majority of the church is NOT the stuff you see on television. Far from it. Much of this stuff is indeed antirational and intellectually challenged, but again I do not pass judgements upon anyone's sincerity with some reservations.

The church, which is just people, the actual persons who were with Jesus after the resurrection, which is the astounding and totally overwhelming claim of these people taught in both the oral, sacramental and scriptural sources of revelatiion, that Jesus physically ascended......whatever that means as defined by the church He guides still.

Along with the utterly moronic Magdelene gnostic "gospel" crap, this is in fact a fundamental attack on the crediblility, witness and truth of Christianity.

The greedy jerk doesn't acknowledge this of course, the poser, but if this hose$hit were true it would undermine Christianity almost completely. The chance of ANY of it being true is fortunately ZERO.

These guys, Peter, the first pope, Paul and all of the others who let themselves be murdered rather than deny what they had experienced and seen, this impossible dream of life beyond death, is an eloquent and sufficient rebuttal to this malicious and quite evil fabrication.

The author has made a name for himself in hostory as a devious fraud.

As to the tomb being empty, of COURSE it was.!!!! If they entered the tomb and the body was still there......end of story.

These are details of such significance that to think them fudged is itself incredible. They wouldn't get this wrong.

And if Jesus just dropped dead AGAIN!!!!. do you really think there would have been such incredible confidence in the "risen" Christ. I don't think so.

Incidentally, there were in fact no bones in these ossuaries. and the selection of names on them is pure crap. Judah's DNA , they say, wasn't tested incidentally. I suspect that they are probably lying about that, not that any of it makes the slightest difference except to the glossy presentation of their fraud.

I know of at least one show I'll miss and not miss this week coming.

A loathesome travesty of art and history and perhaps the very meaning of life.