It's time to nationalize the oil companies.

[Cranky]

Let's face it, what's good for Exxon is not good for us. Oil companies have been the ultimate predators without any control whatsoever.

Take a look at this chart....



The red line shows clearly that price increases have nothing to do with oil prices. Off course, we get the usual thirty excuses why they do. Actually, the best one comming from an Oil Barons mouth was the "ongoing nucllear threats from Iran". What nuclear threats from Iran? Did I mis the memo? Right there and then, that was it for me. These thieving a$$holes need to be eliminated and we need to take coutrol of THE most important econimic resource. I would include in this the electrical grid and water resources.

Here is an article supporting this....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Poll finds support for nationalizing oil industry
Updated Tue. Sep. 6 2005 6:32 AM ET

Canadian Press

MONTREAL -- Almost half of Canadians wanted to see their petroleum resources and their gas companies nationalized as fuel prices hit record levels, a new poll suggests.

The Leger Marketing telephone survey of 1,500 people was conducted between Aug. 24 and Aug. 31, the bulk being done before the devastating effects of hurricane Katrina were felt.

Gas prices have jumped around 25 cents a litre since the storm that battered the U.S. Gulf Coast.

On Monday, for example, prices in Montreal and Halifax averaged $1.38 a litre but the regulated price in St. John's, N.L., was $1.48. In Toronto, prices stood at about $1.35 but were also seen at around $1.22.

Western drivers tanked up for between $1.08 to $1.13 in Edmonton and between $1.07 to $1.14 in Calgary.

In the Leger poll, which was provided to The Canadian Press, 49 per cent of respondents wanted petroleum resources nationalized while 43 per cent said they would like to see the same fate for gas companies.

Quebecers were the strongest supporters of resource nationalization at 67 per cent, followed by residents of the Atlantic provinces at 53 per cent, Ontarians at 45 per cent and British Columbia at 42 per cent.

Forty per cent of respondents on the Prairies and 36 per cent of Albertans were in favour. Among those opposed, Albertans led the way at 49 per cent followed by British Columbians at 39 per cent.

Quebec led in support for nationalization of oil companies, with 61 per cent in favour, followed by the Atlantic provinces (46 per cent). Alberta was most opposed at 59 per cent, followed by the Prairies (49 per cent), B.C. 46 per cent and Ontario, 41 per cent.

Most of the respondents - 79 per cent - suggested they would like to see taxes on gasoline cut, although federal and provincial governments have made it clear that is unlikely.

Seventy-six per cent of respondents indicated they would like the government to intervene after recent gas hikes preceeding Katrina. Fifty-four per cent suggested they would like the government to fix the pump price.

Twenty-six per cent of respondents blamed the gas companies for pre-Katrina price spikes followed by 18 per cent pointing the finger at oil-producing countries.

However, 63 per cent of respondents said pre-Katrina gas price hikes had not affected their fuel consumption. Twenty-five per cent said they were using less gas.

Results of the poll are considered accurate within plus or minus 2.6 percentage points 19 times out of 20.

Katrina cut a swath of destruction along the Gulf Coast more than a week ago, shutting down nine Gulf Coast refineries. It disrupted gasoline pipelines to the Midwest and East and stopped 90 per cent of the oil production in the Gulf of Mexico.

The Gulf is responsible for around 30 per cent of U.S. crude production and one quarter of its gas. A large portion of U.S. oil imports also arrive at Gulf Coast ports. Prices at the pump soared and continued to climb.

~~~~~~~~
www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1125954428543_75/?hub=Canada
~~~~~~~~~~

[Cranky]

No support for this idea? How do you like your gouging now?

[CentreHice]

Free enterprise.....hardly free when it's a license to print money.

Record profits reported yearly.

All kinds of friends in the highest of places.

[Roggy]

Just because the oil companies make money is a good enough reason to regulate their prices? Just because you don't like paying for their product means that government should again stick their noses into business?

Why doesn't everyone rally against to car companies for not making better technology available faster and cheaper? Smart cars have been around for a while, yet I see very few of them on the road, certainly not enough to think that people really want them.

The trouble is, people like driving the big SUV's, like driving anything really. They want to be able to go where they want, when they want. Gas = freedom and independence from public transit. And basic psychology will tell you that people want fancier and fancier vehicles to keep up with that Lexus SUV the neighbor just got.

If people really didn't like spending that money on gas, then they wouldn't. There are alternatives and ways to save (smart car again).

Whining that the government should subsidize the fuel for their minivan is just the laziest way to try and save themselves some money. Actually doing something themselves is the last thing MOST people want to do.

[Cranky]

roggy said:

Just because the oil companies make money is a good enough reason to regulate their prices? Just because you don't like paying for their product means that government should again stick their noses into business?

Why doesn't everyone rally against to car companies for not making better technology available faster and cheaper? Smart cars have been around for a while, yet I see very few of them on the road, certainly not enough to think that people really want them.

The trouble is, people like driving the big SUV's, like driving anything really. They want to be able to go where they want, when they want. Gas = freedom and independence from public transit. And basic psychology will tell you that people want fancier and fancier vehicles to keep up with that Lexus SUV the neighbor just got.

If people really didn't like spending that money on gas, then they wouldn't. There are alternatives and ways to save (smart car again).

Whining that the government should subsidize the fuel for their minivan is just the laziest way to try and save themselves some money. Actually doing something themselves is the last thing MOST people want to do.

I am all for free enteprise. I am all for letting the market dictate the price.

EXCEPT.......

The oil companies ARE LIMITING SUPPLY. Repeat, the oil companies ARE LIMITING SUPPLY. They have shut down a lot of the refineries and have limited our supply of gas. Thus, they are able to limit supply and dictate prices. This is not an internet conspiracy theory from the blue. This is a FACT. They shifted their profit making from the pumps to the refining level. In FACT, they did it on a North American scale. In FACT, they make their profits at the refineries and from there, they not only can they shut out the independent distributers, they control WHO and WHERE the gas goes to exagerate and control regional pricing. How conniving are they? Now they even try shutting out any competition buy supporting eco-Nazis screaming when any plans for renewing old refineries or starting new ones. Their limiting of supply came was achieved and completed when Petro Canada was privatized by Mulroney in '91.

Enron traders originally too lessons from oil companies how to redirect supply (in that case electricity) and screw Californains to the ground. With Enrons increadable success, oil companies became even more aggressive about limiting supply and now they stand at the same level that Enron stood when they screwed consumers at will. The difference now is that oil companies are much more conniving. They are feeding the public coffers as fast as their own and thus blunting the politicians will to even talk about it. Have you heard from the Fedeal or Provincial governments? Even at the most "angriest", politicians pay very little lip service. After all, what is more important? Yourr economic livelihood or their ability to buy votes at election time?

The only thing that frightens the hell out of them and makes them fall to their knees is a grass root demand to nationalizing them. When Petro Canada was formed, it sent shockwaves through every oil Gold Tower. This time, they need their gold towers burnt to the ground.

Mark my words, we need to NATIONALIZE oil companies NOW or else we are surrendering our economy and our ability to put food on our table to their manipulation and greed.

[Roggy]

Is it not the oil companies right to produce what they want? It's FREE enterprise. They want to maximize profits, isn't that what every single business is about? Unless you're a not-for-profit organization, then you're a for-profit organization, and the oil companies are doing just that. If you want to pregnant doggy about how much money they make, buy some of their stock and take in dividends, then use those for gas money. Yeah, they may use tactics to be better at it than anyone else, but in a free market, capitalist economy, that's their right. If you don't like it, then have the laws changed. Limit the ability of oil companies to fund eco-nazis. Limit the campaign contributions. Vote for someone that wants to change they way the system works. Don't just get mad at the people who know how to work the system.

You work in manufacturing, if someone came to you and told you that you had to take any and all profit you had and re-invest it into producing more and more product, so that supply would increase and prices would drop, even though that would limit you ability to make money and profit, would you do it. Would you even bother staying in business?

Just because the oil companies are big doesn't mean they should be held to different standards. Yes, their profit is huge. Good for the shareholders. I go back to my old argument, if you don't like the price of gas, don't buy it. There are alternatives, reduce the demand, spend less. That's where the grassroots campaign should be focused. Buy more hybrids, buy more smart cars, make hybrids and reduced consumption vehicles more viable so the car companies make more of them than SUV's. If you truly hate the oil companies, boycott or reduce consumption of their product.

Simple fact is, the demand is HUGE, crack-addict looking for a fix, huge. Not just here, but globally. Supply is down, you say limited, but I say down. The oil companies are looking at their bottom line and smiling. All they have to do is just carry on and they will profit. Isn't that what every business wants? Why should they be forced into increasing production. If some new guy wants to build a refinery, drill the wells, build the gas stations, I don't think Exxon can do much about it. If you say that Exxon is paying off the politicians to stop the new guy, then get rid of the politician! Stand up and vote for someone clean and honest, don't change the whole system. If we attack every industry that profits, the whole economy will go down the drain anyways.

Next up after oil...big banks!

Next up after big banks, "Hey China, we like your system of government controlled everything, how can we do what you're doing, without our people knowing that we're now a communist government?"

[Cranky]

roggy said:

Is it not the oil companies right to produce what they want? It's FREE enterprise. They want to maximize profits, isn't that what every single business is about? Unless you're a not-for-profit organization, then you're a for-profit organization, and the oil companies are doing just that. If you want to pregnant doggy about how much money they make, buy some of their stock and take in dividends, then use those for gas money. Yeah, they may use tactics to be better at it than anyone else, but in a free market, capitalist economy, that's their right. If you don't like it, then have the laws changed. Limit the ability of oil companies to fund eco-nazis. Limit the campaign contributions. Vote for someone that wants to change they way the system works. Don't just get mad at the people who know how to work the system.

You work in manufacturing, if someone came to you and told you that you had to take any and all profit you had and re-invest it into producing more and more product, so that supply would increase and prices would drop, even though that would limit you ability to make money and profit, would you do it. Would you even bother staying in business?

Just because the oil companies are big doesn't mean they should be held to different standards. Yes, their profit is huge. Good for the shareholders. I go back to my old argument, if you don't like the price of gas, don't buy it. There are alternatives, reduce the demand, spend less. That's where the grassroots campaign should be focused. Buy more hybrids, buy more smart cars, make hybrids and reduced consumption vehicles more viable so the car companies make more of them than SUV's. If you truly hate the oil companies, boycott or reduce consumption of their product.

Simple fact is, the demand is HUGE, crack-addict looking for a fix, huge. Not just here, but globally. Supply is down, you say limited, but I say down. The oil companies are looking at their bottom line and smiling. All they have to do is just carry on and they will profit. Isn't that what every business wants? Why should they be forced into increasing production. If some new guy wants to build a refinery, drill the wells, build the gas stations, I don't think Exxon can do much about it. If you say that Exxon is paying off the politicians to stop the new guy, then get rid of the politician! Stand up and vote for someone clean and honest, don't change the whole system. If we attack every industry that profits, the whole economy will go down the drain anyways.

Next up after oil...big banks!

Next up after big banks, "Hey China, we like your system of government controlled everything, how can we do what you're doing, without our people knowing that we're now a communist government?"

There is free enteprise and then there is gouging and market manipulation. Since you are not arguing against the points that I brought up but rather justify it all as "free enteprise" then there is nothing that I can debate you with.

As for supply...it's is deliberately limited by refining capacity. Here is just ONE of many charges, even by some politicians (I guess they didn't buy EVERYONE off). It should erase any doubts about "limited supplies".

wyden.senate.gov/leg_issues/reports/wyden_oil_report.pdf


And yes, I did call my local federal politicians demanding why something is not done about the market fixing and gouging. The response I got was......the problem will go away when we have "the hydrogen economy". Yeah. Sure. I never knew that politicians are not required to have anything more then room temperature IQ.....in Celsius. I offered to meet to EXPLAIN what "hydrogen economy" was all about and of course it was declined. How stupid of me to expect politicians to know anything more then how to lie to get votes.

[razor]

Ummm - No. Mention the words "National Energy Program" out west and you will find out what kind of support there is for this idea. The biggest problem is that oil is a regional resource. There would be a massive upswell for seperation in the west and Newfoundland if the Feds tried to grab more of the pie than they already have.

Nationalizing the oil hasn't worked out so well recently in Venezuela or ealier for Iraq and the middle east. I don't think the US would look to fondly on us if this were to ever happen in Canada. They quite likely view Canadian oil resources as their own.

[CentreHice]

The monster is out of control....but it's all legal.

I see all your points here.

All I can say is that when we have vehicles that run on hydrogen, there will be hydrogen barons as well.

[Cranky]

razor said:

Ummm - No. Mention the words "National Energy Program" out west and you will find out what kind of support there is for this idea. The biggest problem is that oil is a regional resource. There would be a massive upswell for seperation in the west and Newfoundland if the Feds tried to grab more of the pie than they already have.

Nationalizing the oil hasn't worked out so well recently in Venezuela or ealier for Iraq and the middle east. I don't think the US would look to fondly on us if this were to ever happen in Canada. They quite likely view Canadian oil resources as their own.

If the people are shown the truth of what they pay versus the royalties they receive then they might not be so reluctant to stop their gouging. And nobody said that the royalties would stop. What would stop is the gouging by the oil companies.

Please don't feel left out. Calgary and St. Johns are screwed even MORE by the oil companies then Toronto.

Calgary...$1.11 per liter. With a LOWER provincial take at the pump.

www.calgarygasprices.com/

St. Johns....$1.19 per liter.

www.newfoundlandgasprices.com/St_Johns/index.aspx

And the nationilizing has worked out great for some countries in the middle east. Just because their governments squander their resources does not mean they are not keeping a big piece of the pie. Look at Lybia as an example. They rake in BILLIONS and practically give away the oil to tehir people. Same thing in Russia.

Under no circumstance is Big Oil our "friend". As Roggy said, they are masters of manipulation and using, er, abusing the system.