Newfoundland "I Hate Harper" Thread

[franko]

spidermannl said:

Don't get me wrong...I love Canada but I'm really ticked off that dip sh*t Harper...he screwed us over with his stupid budget.

Don't get me wrong . . . I just want to know: how did Harper screw Newfoundland over?

I guess a further question: how did Harper screw Newfoundland over more than Martin or Chretien did . . . or, for that matter, any of the previous federal governments in power over the past almost 60 years? Inquiring minds want to know.

I think the only way that Newfoundland is going to get any recognition and/or influence is if they join Quebec or Ontario -- because that's where the power comes from and that's where the money flows.

Further, I remember hearing these same [anti-federal government] sentiments when I lived in Alberta in the 70's and 80's, only then it was the Liberals that were screwing the province over.

[MC Habber]

Is there any province, other than perhaps Ontario, that doesn't have a separatist undercurrent? It comes up in BC every once in a while, although I think there's a lot less support for the idea here than in Newfoundland. Part of that is geography.

Skilly complained about lack of representation in parliament, but Newfoundland has proportionally more representation than they do population. How much representation would be enough? Should every province be equal? Is Newfoundland a "distinct society?"

[Skilly]

machabby said:

Is there any province, other than perhaps Ontario, that doesn't have a separatist undercurrent? It comes up in BC every once in a while, although I think there's a lot less support for the idea here than in Newfoundland. Part of that is geography.

Skilly complained about lack of representation in parliament, but Newfoundland has proportionally more representation than they do population. How much representation would be enough? Should every province be equal? Is Newfoundland a "distinct society?"

You are darn tootin' Newfoundland is a distinct society.

Newfoundland has 1.6% of the population .... and they have 2.3% of the seats in parliament. In my book they both get rounded to 2%.

Every province be equal? Well isn't every citizen suppose to be treated equal?

[Skilly]

franko said:

spidermannl said:

Don't get me wrong...I love Canada but I'm really ticked off that dip sh*t Harper...he screwed us over with his stupid budget.

Don't get me wrong . . . I just want to know: how did Harper screw Newfoundland over?

I won't get into how Canada has screwed Newfoundland since we joined Confederation (let's just say it has become a game in Ottawa to see who can screw us most ). We joined on March 31st, 1949 and the screwing began on April 1st, 1949 when we had to take some of the war debt off the hands of the Canadian government. (which we still havent recovered from) ... ohhh and on March 30th, 1949 Newfoundland was operating on a surplus. Thanks Canada.


But back to the question at hand. How did Harper screw Newfoundland? It is a long complicated arguement ... which starts from the standpoint of wanting to be treated like Alberta when they first started oil-production (they never had their oil taken from them, or counted in equalization) .... and ends with the principles of the Atlantic Accord (which was suppose to treat us like Alberta) .... (oh I am sure some will say oil on land is different than oil in the seas ... I am sure Opec sees them differently too when they price it ... but if Newfoundland land seperated , who gets that oil again?)

The Atlantic Accord of the PC governments said Newfoundland was to be the principle beneficiary of the oil revenues. Well for years we had that counted in equalization and because it was we were getting less money. Then Harper fought, and won an election, saying he was going to not include non-renewable resource revenue in equalization calculations (the arguement he stated in Parliament was , it is unfair because the provinces only have one chance to benefit from it). He also stated that the new equalization formula would have no adverse affect on any province.

This new equalization scheme basically nulls and voids the Atlantic Accord, which Harper supported, fought for, and basically became a hero here in Eastern Canada. Now because he thinks he will win an election with Ontario and Quebec seats he tosses Newfoundland (and to a lesser extent Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia) three sheets to the wind.

Basically he is telling Newfoundland scrap the Accord and you can come under the new equalization formula which has some new money in it ... or you can have your Accord capped (which he was totally against) and stay under the old equalization formula. A capped Accord is just as bad as no Accord ... with our little population it would be capped almost certainly and then the clawback would be worse than the benefit. He is forcing the province to give the Accord back.

The ROC is afraid, ney jealous, that the Accord will actually make Newfoundland a prosperous province. Heaven forbid that should happen. We only have one shot at this, but of course it should never happen because it is blasphemous that Newfoundland should ever pass Ontario in prosperity. With our low population, any equalization we may get is peanuts to the national surplus (even with the Accord in place .... and our arguement is that the probablity of us qualifying for equalization is remote - the arse would have to fall out of the oil market). Look at Quebec. They receive billions of dollars in equalization. It isn't because they are poor ... their amount is only off the national average by a little amount, but they get to multiply that amount by 8 million people. Hence billions of dollars.

Oh Harper screwed us alright ... we were all set to become a have-province, but Harper pushed us so far down that we may never recover economically.

[JeffR]

machabby said:

Is there any province, other than perhaps Ontario, that doesn't have a separatist undercurrent?

Well I've been a life long New Brunswicker and separatist overtones are slim to none around here. The biggest reason is we have no rich natural resources anymore to go it alone. We've cut down every tree with any value leaving us with nothing so there's no alternative. ;D

[Polarice]

I know how Skilly feels, we here in Nova Scotia are getting screwed over as well. We have had natural gas running to the states now for almost 10 years and have seen very little money for it. There are only two towns in the entire province that can even have access to the natural gas!!??

The deal is so bad for Nova Scotia that they can't find a company willing to distribute the gas to peoples homes.

[ropoflu]

savioursix said:

machabby said:

Is there any province, other than perhaps Ontario, that doesn't have a separatist undercurrent?

Well I've been a life long New Brunswicker and separatist overtones are slim to none around here. The biggest reason is we have no rich natural resources anymore to go it alone. We've cut down every tree with any value leaving us with nothing so there's no alternative. ;D

A Brunswicker once told me that you do have richness and natural ressources, the only problem is that they all belongs to King Irving and his family.

[Doc Holliday]

In the Q, Harper has effectively pushed the Seperatist movement to an historically low support percentage.

[Skilly]

docholliday said:

In the Q, Harper has effectively pushed the Seperatist movement to an historically low support percentage.

And thats his agenda to get re-elected. The low population out east won't lose the election for us .. heck they only have 32 seats in the four provinces ... if we gain that in Quebec and Ontario , well mission accomplished.

[franko]

skilly said:

docholliday said:

In the Q, Harper has effectively pushed the Seperatist movement to an historically low support percentage.

And thats his agenda to get re-elected. The low population out east won't lose the election for us .. heck they only have 32 seats in the four provinces ... if we gain that in Quebec and Ontario , well mission accomplished.

Astute politics. However, that means that there is a "loser", and the Atlantic Provinces are that.

Let's not fool ourselves -- Canada is not a democratic country, it is a representative democracy. Pure democracy would mean no House of Commons -- we would be run by plebiscite or referendum -- all issues would go to the people. Next "best" option is "impure democracy" -- proportional representation. This would have led to a parliament of:

118 (124) Conservative
098 (103) Liberal
056 (051) NDP
034 (029) BQ
002 (000) Green
000 (001) Independent

Then we'd have a fight as to who would be sitting in the House of Commons representing their parties. In all probability: Mostly those from Quebec, Ontario, and Alberta, with a token few from BC, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and the Maritimes. And either Skilly or Spidey just to make Newfoundland feel they weren't totally excluded.

[franko]

skilly said:

How did Harper screw Newfoundland? It is a long complicated arguement ...

Which I thank you for giving.

[JeffR]

ropoflu said:

A Brunswicker once told me that you do have richness and natural ressources, the only problem is that they all belongs to King Irving and his family.

That is indeed true. The Irvings pull the strings of Government in this province. Always have and always will. There has been talk of something other than forest resources in the province but nobody is willing to investigate it.

[Skilly]

If Harper does win the next election he will also accomplish another of his "Reform platforms". No defeatist culture easterners in the Cabinet. He can do what ever he wants to us then and there would be no voice to oppose. I still remember when he lost the election to Chretien. Conservatives were really high in the polls in the east and a little under a week to polling day Harper goes on air in Western Canada and says "my party is a western party, with western attitudes, for western people". That was replayed here in Eastern Canada ad nauseum and they fell below the Liberals in the polls.

The Accord ramblings brought back some support against Martin, and quite frankly, maybe won him the election in his slim majority (although some could argue those few Quebec seats won him the election also).

The next election he will get a "goose egg" in Newfoundland ... and I pray slimy Hearn and "deputy dog" McKay are also casualities. I hope Easterners come together like never before and send a clear message to Harper ... and it begins with an "F". "0-fer-32, Harper gets egged"

[CentreHice]

I've never understoood why a central government wouldn't want every province to do well. Happy people are happy voters. It's not as if Newfoundland would get all high and mighty....they're the nicest people going. Imagine how much nicer they'd be if economically healthy.

Alberta's benefitting quite well on the back of their resources.....what's good for them should be good for the Goose Bay and Gander.

[Cranky]

skilly said:

Every province be equal? Well isn't every citizen suppose to be treated equal?

ABSOLUTELY agree with you...but only if you pay as much taxes as Alberta and Ontario.

Everybody wants MORE...MORE...MORE.....and eho are the idiots who are going to pay for all this MORE. *sigh*

[Cranky]

centrehice said:

I've never understoood why a central government wouldn't want every province to do well. Happy people are happy voters. It's not as if Newfoundland would get all high and mighty....they're the nicest people going. Imagine how much nicer they'd be if economically healthy.

Alberta's benefitting quite well on the back of their resources.....what's good for them should be good for the Goose Bay and Gander.

Are you serious? There is NO END TO GREED. Ir there was another 500 billion in the treasury, there STILL would not be enough to satisfy every whim from every self centered province, city and special interest group.

[Skilly]

habsaddict said:

skilly said:

Every province be equal? Well isn't every citizen suppose to be treated equal?

ABSOLUTELY agree with you...but only if you pay as much taxes as Alberta and Ontario.

Everybody wants MORE...MORE...MORE.....and eho are the idiots who are going to pay for all this MORE. *sigh*

Huh? Every citizen pays the same federal taxes, depending on the three slots you fall into.

Newfoundland pays one of the highest (if not the highest) provincial taxes , so in reality a Newfoundland citizen is paying more taxes than most.

[Cranky]

skilly said:

habsaddict said:

ABSOLUTELY agree with you...but only if you pay as much taxes as Alberta and Ontario.

Everybody wants MORE...MORE...MORE.....and eho are the idiots who are going to pay for all this MORE. *sigh*

Huh? Every citizen pays the same federal taxes, depending on the three slots you fall into.

Newfoundland pays one of the highest (if not the highest) provincial taxes , so in reality a Newfoundland citizen is paying more taxes than most.

So vote the provincial out. The same applies to Quebec citizens.

But wait.....

Why should Ontario and Alberta citizens pay taxes that OTHER citizens from OTHER provinces will benefit from?

[CentreHice]

habsaddict said:

centrehice said:

I've never understoood why a central government wouldn't want every province to do well. Happy people are happy voters. It's not as if Newfoundland would get all high and mighty....they're the nicest people going. Imagine how much nicer they'd be if economically healthy.

Alberta's benefitting quite well on the back of their resources.....what's good for them should be good for the Goose Bay and Gander.

Are you serious? There is NO END TO GREED. Ir there was another 500 billion in the treasury, there STILL would not be enough to satisfy every whim from every self centered province, city and special interest group.

There's a happy medium between NO END TO GREED and GETTING RIPPED OFF. I think it's called ECONOMIC STABILITY, especially when they have resources which would help provide such.

That's all NFLD wants, I believe.

Unless I'm missing something. (I usually am..... )

[princelh]

Harper has been the best Prime Minister that Canada has had for 40 years! He's done what he said that he was going to do and to me, that's honesty. Harper has done more, in his one year as Prime Minister, than the Liberals had done in the last 13! If he pulls off the destruction of most of the Quebec separatists, then he'll have performed one of the greatest services for this Country.

On Newfoundland, I don't see why there is this over the top animosity toward the Conservative government. Is this what Canada has come to? A squabbling bunch of special interests, that only concern themselves with what they can get and be damned with everyone else? Newfoundland has endured many decades of hard times, but the richer provinces of Canada have pitched in many billions of dollars to keep their hospitals, schools and social services going. Now that Newfoundland has all of the off sea oil revenue heading in to their treasury, it's time to limit their dependence from the rest of Canada. Old ways die hard!

[Skilly]

princelh said:

Harper has been the best Prime Minister that Canada has had for 40 years! He's done what he said that he was going to do and to me, that's honesty. Harper has done more, in his one year as Prime Minister, than the Liberals had done in the last 13! If he pulls off the destruction of most of the Quebec separatists, then he'll have performed one of the greatest services for this Country.

On Newfoundland, I don't see why there is this over the top animosity toward the Conservative government. Is this what Canada has come to? A squabbling bunch of special interests, that only concern themselves with what they can get and be damned with everyone else? Newfoundland has endured many decades of hard times, but the richer provinces of Canada have pitched in many billions of dollars to keep their hospitals, schools and social services going. Now that Newfoundland has all of the off sea oil revenue heading in to their treasury, it's time to limit their dependence from the rest of Canada. Old ways die hard!

All I have to say to this is that it is pure ignorance.

We have endured decades of hard times BECAUSE of Canadian governments. When NL was a nation, we joined Canada with a surplus and a strong economy, we were trading with the US way before Canada ever thought of it. Backdoor, underhanded shananigans from unelected officials, and voila one day after NL joins Canada we are the poorest province ... funny that.

And now NL is asking to let OUR economy grow so we can support other provinces too, you know like Canada is all about ... but yet Harper seems to think we should not be allowed to be more prosperous than Ontario.

Harper broke a promise he supplied to the gov't of Newfoundland, in writing mind you, that he would exempt 100% of the revenue from non-renewable resources from equalization (like he did for Alberta ... remember them ... why do you think they got so rich so fast?)

And if you actually took the time to read the analyze the new equalization formula and related info Harper has actually made Newfoundland MORE dependent on the rest of Canada, not less. Now instead of building our economy with our own resources (oil being only one), we have to give up deals already made and rely on equalization MORE.

I guess it is ok to make Canadian citizens suffer as long as they are Newfoundlanders, huh?

[franko]

skilly said:

Harper broke a promise he supplied to the gov't of Newfoundland, in writing mind you, that he would exempt 100% of the revenue from non-renewable resources from equalization (like he did for Alberta ... remember them ... why do you think they got so rich so fast?)

Interesting 1/3 page ad in today's paper about this from the Newfoundland government saying just that: what does it mean when Harper makes a promise?

[Disgruntled70sHab]

I've been reading through and it's been an education for sure. The one thing I find consistent about Canadian politics since I was mature enough to follow it, is the plight of the Atlantic povinces in general. They've been neglected for years and I think skilly is right insomuch as, their hardships have been largely due to the lack of vision of federal governments.

Having said that, it's been pretty much left up to the Atlantic Provinces to get themselves sorted out that remains tough to do when there's no industry popping up and the fisheries have been forced to close at various times.

Yet, Frank McKenna was successful in getting business to New Brunswick. In fact, he encouraged small businesses and tried to lure big businesses to his province by dangling a provincal tax incentive (honestly don't know the details, just the surface). I think he once said, "best social program we have is a job." Amen!

Having said that, I have to agree with princelh in that Harper has been one of our best PM's in many years. He's given Canada back international respect largely through support of our armed forces. His government is also very visual in anything that involves Canadians internationally. If I'm in trouble abroad, I know I can count on this government to fight to the end for me.

However, he has also proven to be politician as well. In that respect he's no different than the rest. While his government hasn't openly thieved taxpayers' monies blatantly like ADSCAM, he has broken promises. His first week he parachuted a non-elected official into the party and even gave him a cabinet position. And now he's in a mess with NFLD. A mess that he's created.

I never understood the concept of a have/have not province until a while ago. However, I have a problem with have not provinces that simply don't know how to balance their books. And they're out there. On the other hand there are provinces who aren't given the opportunities to balance their books mainly because they've been ignored for too long and are continued to be ignored today.

I'm talking specificallty about the Atlantic Provinces. I don't have the solution, but having parents who come from there I know the problem has been there for decades. And there doesn't seem to be a plan in place to rectify it.

Cheers.

[princelh]

While his government hasn't openly thieved taxpayers' monies blatantly like ADSCAM, he has broken promises. His first week he parachuted a non-elected official into the party and even gave him a cabinet position.

There was a need for representation from the City of Montreal and the good Senator was a stopgap, until Harper could get a representitive by proper election. I'f there had been a single Montreal sitting Conservative memeber, they would have been in the cabinet instead.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

princelh said:

While his government hasn't openly thieved taxpayers' monies blatantly like ADSCAM, he has broken promises. His first week he parachuted a non-elected official into the party and even gave him a cabinet position.

There was a need for representation from the City of Montreal and the good Senator was a stopgap, until Harper could get a representitive by proper election. I'f there had been a single Montreal sitting Conservative memeber, they would have been in the cabinet instead.

This is were Harper becomes no different than any other politician. One of his election platforms was to have an elected Senate. What does he turn around and do? He appoints one for his own agenda.

He also made it an election issue by saying he wouldn't parachute a non-elected official into parliament too.

He's been a good PM, or at least better than his predecessors, but he's no different than the others.

Cheers.

[franko]

Can’t remember if I posted this once before or not:

An old economics teacher once described how resources in Canada are shared, using a cow as an example:

B.C. gets the head.
Alberta gets the body.
Saskatchewan and Manitoba get the forelegs.
Ontario gets the udder (the cream).
Quebec gets the hip/rump.
The Maritime Provinces get the tail.

Need I say what Newfoundland gets?

[Boston_Habs]

docholliday said:

In the Q, Harper has effectively pushed the Seperatist movement to an historically low support percentage.

Just like Mulroney did. The old Tory alliance of cultivating support in Quebec and the Western provinces and leaving the Liberals with Ontario and Atlantic Canada. Tory seats in Quebec and a Tory federal government committed to decentralization meant there was less incentive to elect a PQ government in Quebec. If and when the Liberals come back to power at the Federal level is when you will see a resurgence in seperatism in Quebec.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

franko said:

Can’t remember if I posted this once before or not:

An old economics teacher once described how resources in Canada are shared, using a cow as an example:

B.C. gets the head.
Alberta gets the body.
Saskatchewan and Manitoba get the forelegs.
Ontario gets the udder (the cream).
Quebec gets the hip/rump.
The Maritime Provinces get the tail.

Need I say what Newfoundland gets?

Interesting analogy, Franko. It's hard for me to relate because I've never lived in NFLD. All I go on is what my friends from NFLD have to say. The first thing they gripe about is the high taxes and lack of jobs.

I remember seeing a news spot when the fisheries closed down a few years ago. There were people trying to break down the door to Crosby's office. A few p*ssed people for sure.

But, I've lived in the Maratimes and have family all through NB and NS. Things in NS especially, aren't getting any better and it's been like that for quite a while.

There has to be a way to lure some sort of business to the Atlantic Provinces. Like I said I don't have the solution but something has to be done.

Cheers.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

bostonhabs said:

docholliday said:

In the Q, Harper has effectively pushed the Seperatist movement to an historically low support percentage.

Just like Mulroney did. The old Tory alliance of cultivating support in Quebec and the Western provinces and leaving the Liberals with Ontario and Atlantic Canada. Tory seats in Quebec and a Tory federal government committed to decentralization meant there was less incentive to elect a PQ government in Quebec. If and when the Liberals come back to power at the Federal level is when you will see a resurgence in seperatism in Quebec.

Interesting observation, BH. I remember Mulrooney having Lucien Bouchard in his party dispite Bouchard supporting the 1980 referendum.

And after leaving the Torys, Bouchard later helped form the Bloc Québécois. From what I understand, he was able to lure the support of some former Tory and Grit members as well.

Cheers.

[CentreHice]

princelh said:

Harper has been the best Prime Minister that Canada has had for 40 years! He's done what he said that he was going to do and to me, that's honesty. Harper has done more, in his one year as Prime Minister, than the Liberals had done in the last 13! If he pulls off the destruction of most of the Quebec separatists, then he'll have performed one of the greatest services for this Country.

On Newfoundland, I don't see why there is this over the top animosity toward the Conservative government. Is this what Canada has come to? A squabbling bunch of special interests, that only concern themselves with what they can get and be damned with everyone else? Newfoundland has endured many decades of hard times, but the richer provinces of Canada have pitched in many billions of dollars to keep their hospitals, schools and social services going. Now that Newfoundland has all of the off sea oil revenue heading in to their treasury, it's time to limit their dependence from the rest of Canada. Old ways die hard!

Harper is no different than any other politician. Distort facts, make promises to get elected....then back-pedal like mad once in.

An example of the hypocrisy:

Military Jets Are Cheaper For Harper To Use?

What's the problem with NL shedding the "have-not" mantle and benefitting from their bounty, while sharing some of the surplus with the other have-nots? Another cylinder firing usually makes the engine perform better.