Mohawk Standoff

[princelh]

I had an opportunity to speak to one of the Mohawk warriors, manning the barricades in Deseronto, earlier today. He came in to the Pizza place, that I work in, and we engaged in a discussion. Apparently, he was from the Buffalo area and was here to back up the locals against the OPP. He and one other "warrior" came up from Buffalo, so there was agitators involved on the Mohawk side.

In our conversation, I asked him what they wanted and their motives. They apparently want cash or all of their land back and they're willing to die on principle. He railed on our government and the U.S. government about all of their treaty rights. I tried to inform him, that the Mohawks are not an indigenous people to this area and migrated here from the lower Hudson Valley of New York and New England. They were given land grants by King George III, after the American Revolution, and had as much right to all of the land, than I had, since both sides of my family are United Empire Loyalists and received the same land grants (100 Acres of land in Upper Canada) in 1791. He stopped in his tracks and started arguing about it all being their land. I disagreed and also questioned the tactics they used in 1990, south of Montreal and Cornwall, over gambling and smuggling. He agreed that there is too much of it going on and puts their race in a dim light, when dealing with others. I also told him, why do you sell cut rate smokes to people from outside of the reserve, when you know that it is technically illegal to do so? His answer was, "it's our right to conduct business any way we like". He went on to say that the OPP's were beating up native women last night for information about today's blockades. It seems a bit too much to believe, when they use all of their bravado on how they're going to deal with authority. Seems to me, that Canadians are whipped and have backed down, one too many times to these people. We don't see this happening in the U.S. do we?

[CentreHice]

What the Europeans did to the indigenous peoples of what is now known as North, Central, and South America is hardly what you'd call "settling". Outright genocide in some cases.

The victors always write the history.

I agree that they're going about their demands in the wrong manner, but I don't know what other recourse they have. I am not in their shoes...but if I was, I doubt I would feel any differently than they do.

[princelh]

They are not using logic. To use blockades and standoffs, just riles the rest of the country up and they gain no sympathy. I agree, there was past injustice, but there are no more native people alive that had experienced the genocide. They must become strong, by participating in the economy and build their communities with the advantages that they have been given. They must stop living for yesterday. Yes, remember your heritage, but no, stop subjecting your offspring to persecution. With all of the money being doled out by various levels of government, they should have achieved their goals, many decades ago.

[Cranky]

Didn't you guys get the memo? it's not even about the settled disputes, it's about resettling the already settled disputes. It's about GIMME MORE....MORE....MORE.

Isn't it funny how people come here from across the planet and they can work thermselves out of poverty practically overnioght but the people wit the MOST breaks and support can't do the same thing? Why?

As for...it's their land. Don't buy that one anymore. That was a hundred generations ago and if we all used that mentality, I was born Greek and by the same logic, I have squatting rights to the entire Middle East, North Africa and most of Italy. Or maybe the Turks have rights to Greece, or maybe the Italiens tp Greece, or maybe the Mexians to California or maybe the Spanish to Mexico or maybe.....ON AND ON.

The "demands" will NEVER EVER stop. NEVER. Anyone who thinks that things can be "settled" is dreaming. The last time things "settled down" for a couple of decades was when they were faced down in Oka. Amazingly, there was some "disputes" (some legitimate, other are nothing more then endless demands to "rights" of a standard of living while contributing NO WORK towards it) settled then but now, they are saying very clearly that we either capitulate or else they will resort to kiciking our ass.

This stems from all the a$$hole politicians who rather let things fester then settle them or apply the law. When MvGuinty The VIllage Idiot let's violent action go unchecked, it only enboldens MORE DEMANDS and MORE AGGRESSIVE action. It's not rocket science. When Harper buys off yet another demand to stop yet another protest, it does not "settle" anything. It only creates 10 more demands and 10 more disputes.

As for the US not getting as violent as here. It's simple.The Americans played cowboys and Indians for keeps and will play cowboy and Indians AGAIN without hesitation. Americans understand Oka, we don't.....




P.S. I have not even started about FIRST HAND experience with MILLIONS spent to start a manufacturing company (around '93) only to have the same machinery offered at auction several years later. Anybody want to guess why? Anybody want to guess why the government wont write Oprahs new best seller....."How We Spent 5 Million To Start A Company With Guaranteed Sales And Nobody Came To Work".

[Disgruntled70sHab]

I wasn't as close to the affected areas as you were, Plh. However we had people who live outside of Kingston that didn't make it into work because of the barricades.

princelh said:

I had an opportunity to speak to one of the Mohawk warriors, manning the barricades in Deseronto, earlier today. He came in to the Pizza place, that I work in, and we engaged in a discussion. Apparently, he was from the Buffalo area and was here to back up the locals against the OPP. He and one other "warrior" came up from Buffalo, so there was agitators involved on the Mohawk side.

The term "warrior" is rather convenient in this context. I guess it adds to the romanticism or mystic of the Mohawk peoples; for them anyway.

In our conversation, I asked him what they wanted and their motives. They apparently want cash or all of their land back and they're willing to die on principle. He railed on our government and the U.S. government about all of their treaty rights. I tried to inform him, that the Mohawks are not an indigenous people to this area and migrated here from the lower Hudson Valley of New York and New England. They were given land grants by King George III, after the American Revolution, and had as much right to all of the land, than I had, since both sides of my family are United Empire Loyalists and received the same land grants (100 Acres of land in Upper Canada) in 1791. He stopped in his tracks and started arguing about it all being their land.

This is the argument all across the country, from coast to coast and in the north as well.

I disagreed and also questioned the tactics they used in 1990, south of Montreal and Cornwall, over gambling and smuggling. He agreed that there is too much of it going on and puts their race in a dim light, when dealing with others.

Good on him for admitting this. Many would outright deny it even happening.

I also told him, why do you sell cut rate smokes to people from outside of the reserve, when you know that it is technically illegal to do so? His answer was, "it's our right to conduct business any way we like".

I understand the comment actually. I have an ex-RCMP buddy who worked in the Winnipeg area and had a lot of dealings with First Nations peoples. In one scenario, it had been proven that a murder had been committed by a native. The person was arrested but later turned over to his tribal elders. His punishment was to be handed over to his own police, then immersed into his native religion for two weeks so his soul could be cleansed. He was free to go about his business after his cleansing.

My buddy went onto say that even the RCMP won't venture into a reserve to investigate a crime because it's just not worth the risk. As I was saying, they have their own police force, which in many cases only adds to the problems.

He went on to say that the OPP's were beating up native women last night for information about today's blockades.

Far too convenient a comment ... why didn't any First Nations peoples approach the papers if this was such a concern?

It seems a bit too much to believe, when they use all of their bravado on how they're going to deal with authority. Seems to me, that Canadians are whipped and have backed down, one too many times to these people. We don't see this happening in the U.S. do we?

Well, I think HA brings up a good point. Our politicians are mainly concerned about votes and they're willing to do what it takes to get them.

I'll say this and without prejudice (I'm 1/4 Miq Maq); poverty isn't an exclusive First Nation's problem. It's countrywide. And like many poverty-stricken Canadians across the country, the First Nation's peoples included, they could be doing a lot to help themselves. But, they choose not to. Don't get me wrong, they have some valid concerns. But they're the same concerns shared by people all across the country and it has nothing to do with the color of their skin. And as I was saying a lot of them don't want to help themselves.

This recent day of action has gotten a lot of attention but maybe not the kind of attention the Mohawks want. The provincial Torys are lobbying for judicial action to taken against those who participated. However, First Nations peoples are arguing that they had their own laws before Canada existed.

Seems to be that way around Winnipeg anyway.

Cheers.

[Cranky]

disgruntled70shab said:

I'll say this and without prejudice (I'm 1/4 Miq Maq); poverty isn't an exclusive First Nation's problem. It's countrywide. And like many poverty-stricken Canadians across the country, the First Nation's peoples included, they could be doing a lot to help themselves. But, they choose not to. Don't get me wrong, they have some valid concerns. But they're the same concerns shared by people all across the country and it has nothing to do with the color of their skin. And as I was saying a lot of them don't want to help themselves.

A hand up, or two hands up, or three hands up but at one point do they take repsonsibility for their own actions? This is 2007 fopr crying out loud, one should not expect to have the leisure life of hunting and fishing while somone else provides the medical, education, housing and FOOD. For crying out loud, who can live on hunting and fishing? Not even the most primitive people on earth can live on that. To hear about "rights to traditions" makes my eyes roll. Sure, have your right to "traditions" along with the health and mortality rates. Along with the housing. Along with the education. You can't have the "traditional" life and demand someone else pay for the rest.

disgruntled70shab said:

This recent day of action has gotten a lot of attention but maybe not the kind of attention the Mohawks want. The provincial Torys are lobbying for judicial action to taken against those who participated. However, First Nations peoples are arguing that they had their own laws before Canada existed.

Even before the ugly white man came along, there was CONSTANT fighting between the tribes. They conviniently want everyone to forget that they were nothing more then tribes and even "nations" were nothing more then a collection of somewhat same speaking and customs tribes. If memory serves me correctly, there was SEVERAL HUNDRED distinct tribes in North America with many thousands nations/tribes vanishing in the ebb and flow of fighting.

As for "owning the land". Didn't we go through that one in the last 500 years? My forefathers conquered and Hellenized all the Middle East but I doubt anyone in Syria, Lebanon, Israel and a dozen other countries would move out just because I proclaim that I "owned" the land. Actually that kind of demand will send people in convulsive laughter......if I ask the question the second time, it will earn me a bullet in the head.

Like you Dis, I have no problem helping fellow CANADIANS. I don't care about Africa, China, Bangladesh or outer Mongolia. I care about my family then my friends then my city then my country. I agree to help as much as possible but at ONE POINT, those people who receive the help have to get out of the walls of endless expectations and demands they build around themselves and stand on their own feet. Everyone else in Canada, nee the entire WORLD understands that.

[Skilly]

I have this big huge rant in my head ..... but I'll leave it there. This is a topic that drives me nuts

[princelh]

You can say that about many of the minorities out there. You have Jack Layton and Stephane Dion marching with the natives on Parliament Hill, just to garner votes. At least the Conservatives have not cow-towed to the Natives over the past indiscretions.

Some of the Northern communities do need help from the government, but most of the southern reserves are awash with money and have been getting more money than they deserve. Shawn Brant and his ilk are nothing but agitators that need arresting.

Speaking of reserves in New York State, the state government sets the amount that the natives can sell their cigarettes and gasoline, so they don't undercut local businesses. They are entitled to the tax revenue, however.

We'll never have freedom from this problem, until governments stand up and say no more to the so called warriors and bloody their noses.

[seventeen]

I was talking about this today. There are two Bands close to us (about an hour away) that own land, encourage business investment on their land and are quite wealthy. Then there are dozens of others who complain about poverty and their 'rights'. Never a word about their responsibilities. Perhaps they should just visit their wealthy cousins and learn a bit.

I also get really annoyed about any suggestion that 'First nations" are environmentally responsible. These are people who were often nomadic because they'd rape the land they were in and then left to wreck other land until the original land revived itself rnough for them to rape it again. Very selective memories those guys. And HA, I agree totally with you about the logic of their 'owning the land'. Actually, Neanderthals and Cro-magnons and earlier versions of humans existed off that land long before them. If one of those guys wants to step up, I might entertain their claim before that of 'natives'. (Ok, I'm ranting....I know). But, geeze, how many of them are there". Is there even a million? I doubt it. So we're pandering to less than 3% of the population? Sometimes I feel tempted by Mao's "power comes from the barrel of a gun" philosophy.

PS. I think we should start calling the Mohawks 'pansies' instead of warriors. Great way to really get the smoke coming out of their ears.

[Skilly]

seventeen said:

But, geeze, how many of them are there". Is there even a million? I doubt it. So we're pandering to less than 3% of the population? Sometimes I feel tempted by Mao's "power comes from the barrel of a gun" philosophy.

Using Newfoundland as an example. In 2005 the Labrador Inuit Association "settled" their land claims with the governments of Newfoundland and Canada regarding Voisey's Bay. The Inuit claimed the land in 1977 .... I say "what took so long"? If you have been there for "centuries" why did you claim the land only 29 years ago? Anyway I digress.

There are 5,300 Inuit in Labrador. The government transfered to the Inuit $140 million + $156 million for the implemenatation of the agreement. That's $296 million dollars for 5300 people.

Now, I know schools have this "new math" ... and lil ol me only uses the old math, but anyway you slice it, that's $56,000 a person!! (and that counts the elderly and young) Then they claim poverty, and they claim that they have issues that the white man don't face .... (gas sniffing and alcoholism probably). As, HA said ... it doesn't stop. Now they want specialized health care.

That's only one group. The government is going to have to settle claims with the Innu over Churchill Falls, and now the Metis are riding the coat-tails claiming to be an indigenous group!! The Metis are not even recognized as an indigenous group by any other indigenous group for heaven's sake ... but you can be sure that the governements will appease them. Call me crazy ... but Metis by definition is the mixture of two or more cultures isn't it?

I better stop before I say something I'll regret.

[princelh]

The Mohawks are not even an indigenous group in Canada. Like I said earlier, they migrated with the United Empire Loyalists, at the end of the American Revolution, north for land claims. They left the lower New York area, north along the Hudson Valley, along the south end of the Adirondack mountains, through the Erie Canal region and in to Canada. They had the same land grants, via King George III, that the United Empire Loyalists received. The only difference was the tribal elders decided who got what on their land grant. Over the years, the singular natives sold their parcels of land, around the original reserves, to the UEL's and took the money. Now, after more than two centuries, they have decided that they want the land back, saying it was stolen.

This B.S. about land claims is nothing more than give me a second chance at the same land that my ancestors squandered, but don't make me pay for it. For the record, my mothers people were issued land grants in what is now the United States, by the same King, but do you think if I apply to the U.S. government, they will give it back? We were forced off of our land, because we supported the crown. Just so happens that Saratoga Race Track, in the Glen Falls area, would then belong to me and my siblings, if it were true. I wonder, do you think we'll get it back? That is how ludicrous that their request is, when they try to grab large sections of land that go back 200 years and belong to the rest of the Canadians.

[Cranky]

Actually Skilly, I think the Metis are right....

Let me put it to you this way. I have a vested interest in supporting the Metis because once they get their billions, I'm right behind them. My demands will be simple and not totally based on money.

Here are my cultural demands....

* One virgin per year. In my culture, virgins was a hot, sought after commodity and frankly, ever since you invaded the rock, virgins are hard to find.

That's it. Nothing else.

I am basing all this on the fact that there was a Norse fishing village on the rock sometime in the 1000 A.D. and since Norseland encompasses countries that are part of Europe and Greece is in the European Union, I lay DIRECT claim to my inherent cultural rights to your virgins. Be warned, if you don't give me my virigins, we will blockade the roads in Quebec.

So, where are my virgins?

[princelh]

I remember about 10 years ago, the Belleville area natives near Shannonville were granted the opportunity to apply for a Charity Casino license, in Ontario. The reserve elders made so many demands and held up what should have been a windfall for their community. The government decided to give the license to Gananoque. Now the people of the 1000 Islands are making the tax revenue and the Tyendinega Mohawks are out the money that they could have gotten for the development that would have occurred around the Casino. They still get their cut from the Casino in the 1000 Islands, but what an opportunity squandered to make money from hotels, restaurants and other development that would have followed such an investment from the Province Of Ontario. Would there be a need for blockades in the area, with the flood of money that would have occurred, if they had not been so greedy and wanted more? Shawn Brant should blockade the homes of the tribal elders who lost this great opportunity for his so called neglected and starving community.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

skilly said:

I better stop before I say something I'll regret.

Find we do that a lot nowadays? Don't hear anyone else apologizing ... mainly just us.

[franko]

King John of Canada, by Scott Gardiner, pages 187-203.

Sure, it's total fiction (maybe someone's ultimate dream?), but how about this:

While it's true that hte Aboriginal people of this country had been treated very badly in the past, it's also true that so had everybody else at one time or anotehr. When Columbus made his landfill here, my own ancestors [says the "author"] were winding up two centuries of rape that started out when Kublai Khan came calling with his Golden Horde . . . ; John's Loyalist forebearers were tortured by Americans during the War of Independence; [. . . ] faced the pogroms, . . . If you add up the Somali refugess, the Vietnamese boat people, the concentration camp survivors, to say nothing of the ragged Scots and starving Irish who came floating to the shores . . .

What I'm saying is that ill-treatement is indemic to the sweep of human history.

Fiction with bite?

[princelh]

franko said:

King John of Canada, by Scott Gardiner, pages 187-203.

Sure, it's total fiction (maybe someone's ultimate dream?), but how about this:

While it's true that hte Aboriginal people of this country had been treated very badly in the past, it's also true that so had everybody else at one time or anotehr. When Columbus made his landfill here, my own ancestors [says the "author"] were winding up two centuries of rape that started out when Kublai Khan came calling with his Golden Horde . . . ; John's Loyalist forebearers were tortured by Americans during the War of Independence; [. . . ] faced the pogroms, . . . If you add up the Somali refugess, the Vietnamese boat people, the concentration camp survivors, to say nothing of the ragged Scots and starving Irish who came floating to the shores . . .

What I'm saying is that ill-treatement is indemic to the sweep of human history.

Fiction with bite?

Not fiction but truth. Funny you should say that about King John, since it is my real name and my people were indeed persecuted by the Yankee's during the American Revolution. One great American said this: "Our people would have been better off being ruled by Queen Victoria, than the Lincoln Administration. That person was Robert E Lee, one year after the surrender at Appomattox Court House. You see, Americans can also be cruel to other Americans, regardless of race, creed, colour or religion. To the Mohawks, it's all about the $$$$$$$$$!