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Post by Cranky on Aug 25, 2007 23:05:36 GMT -5
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Post by Kareem on Aug 26, 2007 10:39:34 GMT -5
Just look at the comments to see how hate mongering it is. Reading through almost made me throw up.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 27, 2007 16:47:49 GMT -5
I receive stuff like this periodically from various sources, HA. The mindset is nothing new and certainly isn't going away. Here's a columnist I admire very much. He's a Muslim who really tells it like it is. His name is Salim Mansur and he's a political science professor out of Western. Here's his biography. Barbarians kill as West drifts
By SALIM MANSUR
There comes a point at which diminishing returns on most issues begin to go negative.
Such a point in denouncing Islamist terrorism and equally the Muslim majority's silence against this menace was reached sometime ago.
As Islamist terrorism, however despicable, became mundane occurrence in the daily news cycle, the deafening silence of Muslims -- except for lonely voices of feeble opposition -- has given credence to growing numbers of non-Muslims that Islam is as much a religion of peace as the Klanmen's politics is an expression of multiculturalism.
But there is another side to this abject reality. The Muslim majority's silence is greatly compounded by the appeasement mentality in the West of the mainstream liberal-left media, politicians trolling for ethnic votes and bureaucrats running public institutions.
An evidence of this comes from Scotland. Theodore Dalrymple, a retired physician and prolific writer, in New York's City Journal reports:
"In an effort to ensure that no Muslim doctors ever again try to bomb Glasgow Airport, bureaucrats at Glasgow's public hospitals have decreed that henceforth no staff may eat lunch at their desks or in their offices during the holy month of Ramadan, so that fasting Muslims shall not be offended by the sight or smell of their food. Vending machines will also disappear from the premises during that period."
It is as if more diversity training for public officials, more accommodation of demands made by fundamentalist Muslims, greater willingness to self-flagellate for sins long past of western colonialism, more policing of what might be politically incorrect speech and writing about Islamists or Saudi Arabia's official cult (Wahhabism) of bigotry masquerading as a world religion, will somehow mysteriously translate into taming suicide-bombers and their masters to reciprocate kindly to the liberal-left sensibilities of people in the West.
Dalrymple observes stories such as the one from Scotland tell us something about how civilizations commit suicide -- they "collapse not because the barbarians are so strong, but because they themselves are so morally enfeebled." (Very well put)
What do barbarians do? Kill indiscriminately as in the recent Aug. 14 massacre in northern Iraq reported by the New York Post with the headline "Savages Kill 175 in Iraq Bombings."
Four trucks were exploded west of Mosul -- Iraq's third largest city in the Kurdish north -- in an area predominantly inhabited by Yazidis, a people practising pre-Islamic faith. The toll of dead and wounded among this poor dwindling minority living at the edge of the Iraqi society far exceeds the numbers first reported.
This savagery is the work of al-Qaida associates preparing more predictable bombings ahead of the mid-September report in Washington to be given by Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq.
There is now a pattern in al-Qaida bombings arranged to influence American public opinion during key moments in public policy debates and general elections.(Again, very well stated)
But the liberal-left media, such as the New York Times, remains fixated with faulting the Bush administration for the savagery of Islamists while providing oxygen to apologists of terror spinning their endless refrain of "root cause" being oil and Israel for violence originating in the Middle East.
How morally enfeebled, as Dalrymple opines, is the West? Imagine the uproar denouncing any suggestion that the mainstream liberal-left media, in appearance at least, is treasonously on side with the newest enemies of freedom and democracy.The linkAnd he's right. I'll post some more material as I find it. Cheers. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 27, 2007 16:59:14 GMT -5
And here Mr Mansur opines that the Muslims could be helping themselves a lot more. Terrorists take aim at trust
By SALIM MANSUR
As simple a task as driving on the road depends on trust that vehicles approaching from front and behind are driven by people who abide by the rules of the road.
We take for granted rules by which we conduct myriads of things in our daily lives, and how the sum total of these transactions constitutes the working order of our society and our civilization.
These rules we set for ourselves in the absence of trust would not work.
Trust is an invisible social wire that connects and binds us in our relationships as intimate as the one within a family and with individuals as strangers we meet in our work and travel.
How trust is formed and maintained is a fascinating subject with a vast literature. Its origin is embedded in custom and religion, and traditional ethics -- for instance, Confucian or Christian -- rest on its working. And hence we have the golden rule, irrespective of whether it is a matter of rational calculation or derived from religious teaching, of not doing wrong to others so that it may not be done to oneself.
Yet this has to be taught and learned, as Aristotle instructed, for habits are formed through practice, and trust is an acquired norm.
The recent doctors' plot in Glasgow and London, of Muslim physicians engaging in acts of terror, is only one diabolical event in what has become since 9/11 an endless chain of premeditated violence against modern civilization by a people who has made of religion -- Islam -- an ideology of mayhem and murder.
Osama bin Laden and his gang of Islamist thugs with a global reach did not merely set out to inflict on the West physical harm.
It should have been clear by now that their meticulously plotted objective is to destroy trust between non-Muslims and Muslims with predictable consequences. (Agreed)
The ancient Chinese built a wall to separate their civilization from those deemed untrustworthy barbarians. Similarly other medieval civilizations built some sort of physical or cultural wall separating one from the other as untrustworthy.
The wall Muslims of medieval religious sensibilities built was culturally as firm as the physical wall of China, separating the House of Islam -- where believers resided with trust among each other -- from the House of War inhabited by unbelievers and infidels whom Muslims could not trust.
Islamists have been unequivocal in their goal of reconstituting that medieval separation between the House of Islam and the House of War. Their jihad (war) through terrorism is explicitly designed to wreck the relationship between non-Muslims and Muslims by inflicting irreparable damage to the functioning of trust between them.
The vast majority of Muslims who are not Islamists and fear the Islamist agenda, in remaining silent or in being irresolute in publicly opposing the Islamists, has done little in restoring the trust between themselves and non-Muslims that has been so severely undermined.(a legitimate fear to be certain)
Muslims today and in the years to come will have none to blame but themselves for failing to do what is right in unconditionally and publicly repudiating Islamists, and repairing the trust by which our world functions.(enough blame to go around)
It is so far the decency of people in the West that they have not drawn a wall Islamists are hard at work in erecting to separate themselves from Muslims as untrustworthy. If this occurs Muslims will be greatly responsible for their own misfortune.The linkAnother very well-worded opinion. Cheers. |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 27, 2007 18:38:55 GMT -5
Great finds Diss, I like what I read from this author.
From about 2000 and particularly post 9/11, I have turned from a supporter of Palestinians and Arab's to seeing Israel as the first line of defense to irrationality. Gone are the days of shaking my head in disgust when I read about Israel acquiring cluster bombs, now it's replaced by couriosity of kill circumferences. A large part of this "turning" has to do with the deafening Muslim silence, if not outright acceptance, of the mayham caused by those who cry the name of Allah.
As always, the liberal left rush to apologize and appease has relieved the moderate Muslim for taking any responsibility. Why should they stand out and fight their own? Isn't easier just to sit back and smirk while the West reals? Imagine of the KKK plotted and killed Muslims? There would be such an outrage from our society that anyone who dared claimed he belonged to the KKK would be equal to adminting to child raping. Needless to say, they would be hunted to extinction. And yet where is the equal Muslim response?
Do moderate Muslims understand is that Western civility is a veneer that can be easily pealed away? Slowly, those Islamist who want a showdown with the West are grinding the Western masses psyche into accepting indiscriminate retribution. Another 9/11 event, another massacre will regalvanize the West into another round of "controlling" the situation. Two building caused the invasion of two countries. A lost city will fry the veneer completely away and cause a massive backlash.
I was watching the video about gun making in the Khyber pass. All those people running around waiving their guns, feeling childishly smug and potent have NO IDEA what a modern Western army can do if they take off he gloves. That entire pass can easily be a couple of fuel-air sorties away from becoming a barbecue pit. Nothing will crawl out of there, not even cockroaches. If Islamists are taking their cue from the liberal left media and it's appeasers that Western society is "weak" or can be "dominated", they have no idea of Western history.....and the brutal consequences.
The moderate Muslims need to understand that they are not bystanders.
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Post by Kareem on Aug 27, 2007 20:06:52 GMT -5
Great finds Diss, I like what I read from this author. From about 2000 and particularly post 9/11, I have turned from a supporter of Palestinians and Arab's to seeing Israel as the first line of defense to irrationality. Gone are the days of shaking my head in disgust when I read about Israel acquiring cluster bombs, now it's replaced by couriosity of kill circumferences. A large part of this "turning" has to do with the deafening Muslim silence, if not outright acceptance, of the mayham caused by those who cry the name of Allah. HA, don't confuse Arabs with Muslims. Israel is an Arab problem first and foremost, and even moreso a Palestinian problem. There is definetly an arab silence and an acceptance but Allah is a name for god, wether Christian or Mulsim, that is the word you use in Arab for God. That said, I don't understand why anything would've changed in your opinion, even if there was Muslim outcry, you would consider it silence if you didn't see it first hand in the media. You see what is at your disposal, through mass media coverage and such and we all know what the Western World does in terms of information control. If there are "rationnal" Arabs/Muslim, you could never hear about them. The problem in Israel remains the same as it was 8 years ago and 60 years ago. For Arabs, the country will never make sense, Jews have not lived there for 5000 years, they cannot lay claim to a land they haven't owned in centuries. They cannot use the excuse of being a people, it is a religion, there are black, brown and white jews. Another problem lies with the hypocrites running Arabian and Persian governments, calling for the death of Israel and claiming to be saviors of the Palestionians. Yet Palestinians are treated better by Jews then by fellow Arabs. Has any Arabian government ever talked about how they treat those 6M refugees? Finally, there is the problem that Israel is there to stay, people have to accept it, Arabs more then anyone else. They cannot continue to play ostrich and refuse to accept it's existance, it's there and despite it's problems, it's thriving. As always, the liberal left rush to apologize and appease has relieved the moderate Muslim for taking any responsibility. Why should they stand out and fight their own? Isn't easier just to sit back and smirk while the West reals? Imagine of the KKK plotted and killed Muslims? There would be such an outrage from our society that anyone who dared claimed he belonged to the KKK would be equal to adminting to child raping. Needless to say, they would be hunted to extinction. And yet where is the equal Muslim response? Which groups of "moderate" Muslims are you waiting for? Do you realize the huge majority of the muslim world lives in terrible poverty. We're not talking about first world countries here. Where's the outrage about the Chinese people doing nothing about the massacre of Tibetans, or Turkish people not putting pressure on the government to aknowledge the armenian genocide? Can it be that the people who think that have no voice in the media? In this world, what doesn't sell has no voice. Do moderate Muslims understand is that Western civility is a veneer that can be easily pealed away? Slowly, those Islamist who want a showdown with the West are grinding the Western masses psyche into accepting indiscriminate retribution. Another 9/11 event, another massacre will regalvanize the West into another round of "controlling" the situation. Two building caused the invasion of two countries. A lost city will fry the veneer completely away and cause a massive backlash. There isn't a place in the world that suffers from extreme political pressure as what happens in the middle east. With that extreme pressure, comes extreme circumstances and extreme behavior. Afghanistan and the Talibans were a product of the feud between the US and the USSR, the problem lies within the political superpowers, that means us. I was watching the video about gun making in the Khyber pass. All those people running around waiving their guns, feeling childishly smug and potent have NO IDEA what a modern Western army can do if they take off he gloves. That entire pass can easily be a couple of fuel-air sorties away from becoming a barbecue pit. Nothing will crawl out of there, not even cockroaches. If Islamists are taking their cue from the liberal left media and it's appeasers that Western society is "weak" or can be "dominated", they have no idea of Western history.....and the brutal consequences. The moderate Muslims need to understand that they are not bystanders. HA, for all the respect I owe you, I hope this isn't serious. First off, the Khyber pass has nothing to do with Islamists, it's cultural, they've been different for decades and honestly, what the hell can the Arab world do about a small region in Pakistan? Nevermind that, the western world has tried more then once to come in and invade the Middle East only to come out running with their tails between their legs. The biggest superpowers in the world can't control two third world countries with no army to speak of. A bomb is only good if you know where the target is. These people in the Khyber pass couldn't care less about any western army, they are poor beyond belief and have found a way to make money, survive and govern themselves. As for moderate muslims being bystanders. They're not the ones who fragmented the Arabian world, they're not the ones who destroyed Afghanistan and made it a terrorist haven, they're not the ones who created Israel, they're not the ones who armed the governments. Guess who it was, and yes, it's right here in the western world that it happened. There's plenty of blame to go around, on all sides. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 27, 2007 20:21:50 GMT -5
Great finds Diss, I like what I read from this author. From about 2000 and particularly post 9/11, I have turned from a supporter of Palestinians and Arab's to seeing Israel as the first line of defense to irrationality. Gone are the days of shaking my head in disgust when I read about Israel acquiring cluster bombs, now it's replaced by couriosity of kill circumferences. A large part of this "turning" has to do with the deafening Muslim silence, if not outright acceptance, of the mayham caused by those who cry the name of Allah. Thanks HA. I think I admire Mr. Mansur not only for his candor but also for having the courage to speak his piece. Muslims like him who have the courage and conviction to speak out, to speak their minds, do so at times under the thread of death. Hold this thought. More to follow. I think moderate and Western-based Muslims understand and fear something else actually. I honestly believe that many of these people feel they are being painted with the same extremist paintbrush as their radical relations. They certainly don't want this and, unlike Mr. Mansur, fear for their lives if they were to speak out. I watched this one too, HA. Very interesting to say the least. These people have been reared on conflict and war for centuries. To them it's a way of life that even their children have become desensitized to. Honestly, they could care less about the might of the Western World. They saw the Russians leave and, while many really don't think about it, eventually NATO will pack it's bags and leave as well. Not only the moderate Muslims, HA. We can group our liberally-thinking Western peoples in there as well. Take Mr. Mansur's next article below. Never hear of the word "apostate" before. Cheers. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 27, 2007 20:35:11 GMT -5
Believe it or not I first read this in the Toronto Sun while camping outside Wonderland. Brilliant! The cost of two denials
By SALIM MANSUR
There are two denials working in tandem at least since Sept. 11, 2001, that undermine liberal-democracies and their efforts to eliminate the scourge of Islamist brigandage from our world.
One denial is the Muslim majority refusing to denounce without equivocation the Islamist thugs from Osama bin Laden down to the street-corner spokesman for al Qaida, or similar organizations -- and their apologists from Sheikh al Qaradawi featured on the Arab television al Jazeerah down to the prayer leader in the local mosque -- for being "warmongers of darkness" at war with the modern civilization and Islam.
This Muslim denial to confront the now ugly reality of their world emanates in large measure from fear of the "a-word" and what then might follow.
The fear of being labelled an "apostate" by other Muslims, or Muslim authority, cripples the Muslim mind to silence and inaction when confronted with what is undeniably wrong gets espoused in the name of Islam. Apostate: One who is guilty of desertion of one's faith, religion, party, or principles
While this fear can be explained at length sociologically and historically -- it goes back to the first century of Islam when majority of Arab-Muslims, for instance, prayed behind the leadership that sanctioned the murder of members of the Prophet Muhammad's family instead of repudiating such leaders and their apologists in mosques -- one of its effects is an erosion of trust between non-Muslims and Muslims of which I wrote last week.
The other denial is the liberal "white man" refusing to speak clearly about the wrongs of the other -- the "non-white" -- and, especially, when such wrongs as Islamist terrorism places in peril everyone without any distinction of ethnicity, gender and belief.
The "white man's" denial these days is framed as being politically correct, and the aversion of being incorrect comes from the fear to get labelled with the "b" or "r"-words as a "bigot" or "racist."
There could be nothing worse for a liberal "white man" than being called a racist. It stupefies him into incoherence as the deer is frozen into inaction when caught in the headlights of an approaching car. (This is very true and others, not only Muslims, understand this)
This fear is bound up with the liberal or "white man's" guilt over the past sins of Europe's colonial-imperial history -- the 500 years since Christopher Columbus's voyage represented in this "liberal" version of the "revised" world history as an unrelenting abuse and exploitation by the "white man" of Asians, Africans and the indigenous populations of the Americas, Australia and the far-flung islands of the Pacific.
Shelby Steele at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, has written most incisively about the "white guilt" and what it has meant in terms of race relations in America since the 1960s, or when it becomes necessary to fight in defending freedom.
"Today, the white West," writes the Afro-American Steele, "lives in a kind of secular penitence in which the slightest echo of past sins brings down withering condemnation. There is now a cloud over white skin where there was once unquestioned authority."
America's retreat from Vietnam was somewhat hastened by white guilt, and the foreseen consequences for the Vietnamese mattered little to those who sought America's defeat in south-east Asia.
Similarly, the full-throated cry of "liberal" penitence subverts the West's ability to defeat terrorists and their sponsors in Iraq and elsewhere. Between the two denials at work, Islamist murderers reap their harvest of the innocent dead.The linkCheers. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 27, 2007 21:22:07 GMT -5
Geeze JHF, I really wanted to get off the boards a little while ago. But, there's a lot of really good dialog going on here. HA, don't confuse Arabs with Muslims. Israel is an Arab problem first and foremost, and even moreso a Palestinian problem. There is definetly an arab silence and an acceptance but Allah is a name for god, wether Christian or Mulsim, that is the word you use in Arab for God. As I told Mr. Mansur in a recent email, my interest in the Middle East started in one of my high school history classes. It was here that our class learned that there are two different situations here; the Arab/Israeli conflict and the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Though they are different the two are often correlated, so as to substantiate someone else's agenda. The only democracy in a region of autocratic societies can easily be construed as a threat. I posted a while back that the Arab League made what they thought to be an historic visit to Israel. I thought this was a positive move forward but I guess it wasn't viewed as big an initiative as I thought it was. Please see this thread here when you have the time. This could be a thread of its own when you think about it. I also posted what I thought might have been another positive move between the two religions; Islam and Christianity. Regrettably, this positive initiative by the Mennonites didn't facilitate any interest either. It focuses mainly on dialog and mutual respect, and the Mennonites have picked up the conch so to speak: Mennonite conference in Canada promotes dialog with Iranian scholars
MCC and Conrad Grebel University College
May 17, 2007
MCC and Conrad Grebel University College are co-sponsoring a conference May 27-30 to promote peace building through academic dialogue with religious scholars from Iran and Mennonite scholars from North America.
The upcoming conference, Shi'ah Muslim - Mennonite Christian Dialogue III, will be held at Conrad Grebel University College in Waterloo, Ontario. Although the overall theme of the conference is "Spirituality", there will be other opportunities for conversation between the two faith groups. A limited number of observers from both the local Shi'ite community and interested Mennonites will also be attending. The aim is to contribute towards further understanding and relationship building between the two religious communities at both the local and global level. The rest of the story.IMHO, the bottom line is at least both sides here are trying to establish some sort of dialog. It's a starting point any way we look at it. At least there are some factions trying. Cheers. |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 28, 2007 0:17:46 GMT -5
HA, don't confuse Arabs with Muslims. Israel is an Arab problem first and foremost, and even moreso a Palestinian problem. There is definetly an arab silence and an acceptance but Allah is a name for god, wether Christian or Mulsim, that is the word you use in Arab for God. That said, I don't understand why anything would've changed in your opinion, even if there was Muslim outcry, you would consider it silence if you didn't see it first hand in the media. You see what is at your disposal, through mass media coverage and such and we all know what the Western World does in terms of information control. If there are "rationnal" Arabs/Muslim, you could never hear about them. I don't confuse Islamists terrorists with anybody and I didn't confuse Muslims majority not turning on them. Arab or otherwise. The official Palestinian position is that they were saddedned by 9/11. Yet what I saw in Gaza's caffee shops was jubilation. "The Americans deserved it" was the translation that rung in my ears. The Western world is too liberalized and disorganized to have any control for anything other then their bowels. If one wants to learn both sides, then there are so many media options available that the only thing one should be concerned about...is their own confuson. The problem in Israel remains the same as it was 8 years ago and 60 years ago. For Arabs, the country will never make sense, Jews have not lived there for 5000 years, they cannot lay claim to a land they haven't owned in centuries. They cannot use the excuse of being a people, it is a religion, there are black, brown and white jews. The "problem with Israel" has lip gloss value in the Arab world. Most of the Arab world could not care less for the Palestinians but it certainly helps justify anything. Another problem lies with the hypocrites running Arabian and Persian governments, calling for the death of Israel and claiming to be saviors of the Palestionians. Yet Palestinians are treated better by Jews then by fellow Arabs. Has any Arabian government ever talked about how they treat those 6M refugees? Something we agree on. Finally, there is the problem that Israel is there to stay, people have to accept it, Arabs more then anyone else. They cannot continue to play ostrich and refuse to accept it's existance, it's there and despite it's problems, it's thriving. Second thing we agree on. Which groups of "moderate" Muslims are you waiting for? Do you realize the huge majority of the muslim world lives in terrible poverty. We're not talking about first world countries here. Where's the outrage about the Chinese people doing nothing about the massacre of Tibetans, or Turkish people not putting pressure on the government to aknowledge the armenian genocide? Can it be that the people who think that have no voice in the media? In this world, what doesn't sell has no voice. I was born in a two room mud shack my father built. Should I have blamed the Americans for that? Russians? My father? God? Who? Perhaps because I had no one to blame and mire myself in victim-hood, I just put down my head and worked. The only jihad I declared was on my poverty. My point............ If poverty is a justification for endless victim mentality then the Vietnamese should corner that market. Or perhaps the black South Africans should corner that market. Or perhaps the Chinese. Or perhaps the Cambodians. Or perhaps the ....... There isn't a place in the world that suffers from extreme political pressure as what happens in the middle east. With that extreme pressure, comes extreme circumstances and extreme behavior. Afghanistan and the Talibans were a product of the feud between the US and the USSR, the problem lies within the political superpowers, that means us. Extreme political pressure? That is an abstract statement. People in Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe have extreme political pressure but they don't teach their children to kill "Westerners". They don't create organization whose sole purpose is to kill innocents. HA, for all the respect I owe you, I hope this isn't serious. First off, the Khyber pass has nothing to do with Islamists, it's cultural, they've been different for decades and honestly, what the hell can the Arab world do about a small region in Pakistan? Nevermind that, the western world has tried more then once to come in and invade the Middle East only to come out running with their tails between their legs. The biggest superpowers in the world can't control two third world countries with no army to speak of. A bomb is only good if you know where the target is. These people in the Khyber pass couldn't care less about any western army, they are poor beyond belief and have found a way to make money, survive and govern themselves. People of this region have embraced a gun mentality. Their primitive weapons defeated a "super power" in their mind and this empowers and enboldens them. Reality is that a gun is an arrow to a modern army with no shackles. If they aid Ismlamist extremist with WMD's then their "empowerment" needs to be erased. Further..... Islamists are not defined by borders or regions. Their common thread is a religion and a persecution complex. Amongst other places, ungoverned areas like the Khyber pass and parts of western Pakistan serve as a refuge and a conduit for the jihad against the West. As for the West putting their tails between their legs, well, that is a far better option then using the full weight of their military. Because of that, the Islamists and their supporters have nothing but contempt for the West. They have learned that it only takes a few hundred or a few thousand body bags before the Western public cries and capitulates. Does one need barbiturates to imagine that if a car bomb sends shock waves through the Western world, what will something far more massive do? The cry of martyrdom demands more punishment upon the infidels and what better way to show them then to destroy a city or two. It's not an issue of extremists view or will, it's an issue of access. As for respect for me, it's irrelevent. That is my opinion and it does not seek approval. Perhaps you are suprised by the hard line? That is because I see the world governed by increasing radicalized self interests amf ever larger consequences. My forefathers were Spartans and contrary to common opinion, the Spartans did not relish war. Why? Because they put their own chest on the line. They would try to find a saner solution through politics or compromise, but if none existed or none were left to them, then those who fought them knew the consequences. Things have not changed...other then a liberally applied thicker coat of veneered civility. As for moderate muslims being bystanders. They're not the ones who fragmented the Arabian world, they're not the ones who destroyed Afghanistan and made it a terrorist haven, they're not the ones who created Israel, they're not the ones who armed the governments. Guess who it was, and yes, it's right here in the western world that it happened. There's plenty of blame to go around, on all sides. First...The Arab world may have been "re-fragmented", or perhaps one should say re-organized by the West but it wasn't a homogeneous world to begin with. Not even close. A man living in Kuwait may identify with a Yemeni through culture and religion as much as I would identify with a white man in Australia. That does not make us "one nation" nor does it imply that I want Australia to be one nation with Canada nor do I see his problems as my problems. Secondly....Afganistan, sure, there was a king there for centuries but it was mostly run as a very lose tribal federation. Before the Soviets invaded, it was already an inept mess. Should the West have gone in and rebuild it after the soviet defeat? Perhaps one can argue that but to claim that the West created a terrorsit heaven is.....way over there. Further, if the West goes in, they are invaders, if they don't go in, they are responsible. There is NO middle ground here. Don't buy it. Thirdly...Israel was created by a nationalist movement of Jews who wanted a homeland. If you want to call Jews "Westerners" then guilty as charged. Lastly....You make a direct rebuttal to my statement that Muslims can not be bystanders because of what the "West" did. Perhaps you may feel some guilt as a Westerner but I do not share it. If one looks long enough and hard enough, one may find the butterfly effect of Western civilization in every corner of the planet. That's what happens if one civilization is more advanced then another. However, to immerse a large part of a civilization into perennial victim hood and blame for ones own ineptitude is kind of sad. Neither my father nor my grandfather nor my great grandfather went on any crusade. I never stole a dime from Syria. My wife never sold bad fish in Kabul. In order for any country or civilization to prosper, it needs to shed man who use religion as shackles and to look forward. As much as dislike what the Chinese have done to my businesses, they have shed their collars of the past and are building a forward moving, thriving economy. Same thing for other Asian countries. It's time that some of the Arab/Muslim world did the same. |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 28, 2007 0:43:00 GMT -5
Not only the moderate Muslims, HA. We can group our liberally-thinking Western peoples in there as well. Take Mr. Mansur's next article below. Never hear of the word "apostate" before. Cheers. Do you realize that now we have have commited to writting opinions that relegate us into the lowly plateau of "red neck war mongers"? We may even have achieved "war monger" placard status from the NDP. Pffft.... Well Mr. Redneck, if the need arises, if I need someone to cover my back, I sure hope you jump into my foxhole. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 28, 2007 7:11:40 GMT -5
The Western world is too liberalized and disorganized to have any control for anything other then their bowels. I think the first step is to recognize this and then admit to it. Very hard for some to do ... on both sides. Very good point, HA. What's important to acknowledge as well is that these people have known no other way for centuries. In their minds they've never lost a conflict on their own soil. They've seen thousands of their countrymen die over history but the heathen has always left ... usually on the run. Further..... See above. I guess it might depend on which Western organizations go into Afghanistan. Any military formation would be deemed a threat, but relief organizations like the Red Cross are always welcome. There are those who still view them as tresspassers but for the most part they're tolerated because of the needs they provide. Results speak for themselves. They'll be the primary energy cow of the future usurping the USA in a very short time. It's how they got to this level that miffs a great many. The Chinese regard human life as a means to promote their economics and if their people are reluctant to contribute they are made to contribute at the point of a gun. Agreed. Providing they don't use the Chinese model. I haven't done any research on this so it's basically an observation, but the more successful Arab countries are the moderate countries. UAE is one of them and while I've never visited there I have friends who simply can't say enough about the economy. I guess it can be described as a Western economic success but at the same time they haven't sold out their heritage. Great dialog. Cheers. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 28, 2007 7:36:43 GMT -5
Not only the moderate Muslims, HA. We can group our liberally-thinking Western peoples in there as well. Take Mr. Mansur's next article below. Never hear of the word "apostate" before. Cheers. Do you realize that now we have have commited to writting opinions that relegate us into the lowly plateau of "red neck war mongers"? We may even have achieved "war monger" placard status from the NDP. Pffft.... Hey, didn't Mr. Mansur mention earlier that the "white man's" silence can be framed as political correctness now? The fact is, this can also apply to silent minority groups as well. I just got back from Ontario Redneck Central last week ... Sudbury. The ultra-conservative, logo-tee-shirt-wearing, gold-necklace-clad, extemely well-paid labourers (of which my father-in-law is one) who pack the taverns are the first ones to tell you you're full of crap; however, they can also take it as well. You'll catch them off guard when you turn the tables on them, but they'll respect it if you're right. In short, the rednecks I've associated with are very good people who might have a different view of what constitutes manners. They're aggressive without knowing it and you always know where you stand with them. But, it's equally important to let them know where they stand with you. They might turn their back on you, but the fact they don't start a fight with you is proof enough they understand. In keeping with the thread, minority groups have no problem being aggressive when promoting their rights. Neither do rednecks ... but they can be misconstrued as extremists in their ethnic country just on their nickname ... go figure. Cheers. |
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Post by BadCompany on Aug 28, 2007 8:08:10 GMT -5
Good thread guys... gonna have to mull it over some before I can jump in.... Can one agree and disagree with everything said here, all at the same time?
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Post by Cranky on Aug 28, 2007 13:52:39 GMT -5
Good thread guys... gonna have to mull it over some before I can jump in.... Can one agree and disagree with everything said here, all at the same time? Just don't take too wide a stance and rub up against my point of views.  |
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Post by Kareem on Aug 28, 2007 16:57:47 GMT -5
I don't confuse Islamists terrorists with anybody and I didn't confuse Muslims majority not turning on them. Arab or otherwise. The official Palestinian position is that they were saddedned by 9/11. Yet what I saw in Gaza's caffee shops was jubilation. "The Americans deserved it" was the translation that rung in my ears. The Western world is too liberalized and disorganized to have any control for anything other then their bowels. If one wants to learn both sides, then there are so many media options available that the only thing one should be concerned about...is their own confuson. About those videos released, they were later proven to be old videos of other manifestations. They did celebrate, but so did most of the world, sadly. And about liberalisation, all I can say is good. We're both of greek origin and those liberal views are the reason why we're not mistreated, why we have access to an education, women 18 to 100 and most importantly why we have so much freedom. Let the middle eastern problems be resolved by middle eastern people and let's stop intervening for once. The "problem with Israel" has lip gloss value in the Arab world. Most of the Arab world could not care less for the Palestinians but it certainly helps justify anything. Agreed, the palestinians are nothing more then a political tool for all Arab and persian governments. They're a nuisance when they get inside the land. Sad, but true. Then again, the word "Terrorism" has also become a huge political tool here. I was born in a two room mud shack my father built. Should I have blamed the Americans for that? Russians? My father? God? Who? Perhaps because I had no one to blame and mire myself in victim-hood, I just put down my head and worked. The only jihad I declared was on my poverty. Were you one of the following: bombed, stabbed, shot or killed? Did any of the following happen to you: Did anyone steal your home? Your land? Your money? Has anyone ever come with tanks and bulldozers to destroy your house? That jihad of yours would've been different. Another thing, our "liberalized" society also gave you the opportunity to thrive by giving you a cheap quality education without discrimination and by giving you the chance to take part in the lucrative capitalistic market. We call this social justice, that's what makes Canada great. Now, do you honestly believe that can be the case for palestinians? Or the muslim world, which is mainly very, very poor and governed by tyrants? They would need a total change of mentality, economic and political structure. That, my friend, does not come quickly and definetly does not worked when another country tries to force it... while stealing your ressources and destroying your infrastructure(see Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine). My point............ If poverty is a justification for endless victim mentality then the Vietnamese should corner that market. Or perhaps the black South Africans should corner that market. Or perhaps the Chinese. Or perhaps the Cambodians. Or perhaps the ....... Poverty is one of the reasons and really, reality speaks for itself. Where are the highest crime rates in north america? Where are the biggest drug businesses? The most wars? The most instability? And really, us westerners profit from it like you couldn't believe, not unlike smart investors during a bear market. The question we have to ask ourselves, since we're the ones with power, money and ressources is, should we intervene? If so, in what capacity and how. Right now, we're doing everything wrong since unlike before, it's actually hurting our economy and political power. Extreme political pressure? That is an abstract statement. People in Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe have extreme political pressure but they don't teach their children to kill "Westerners". They don't create organization whose sole purpose is to kill innocents. They react in other ways and besides, let's be honest here. Which land is the most strategical geographically? Two clues, it happens to be a land full of energy ressources and it's a land that's been in a constant war since it's existance. You can't say that of Africa, Asia or eastern Europe. Besides, China has created an organization that kills innocents, their govermnent in Tibet. Let's not even talk about Russia... Or Africa for that matter with the usual genocide per decade. Only conviently, we don't care about that as westerners since it doesn't affect us in practical way. People of this region have embraced a gun mentality. Their primitive weapons defeated a "super power" in their mind and this empowers and enboldens them. Reality is that a gun is an arrow to a modern army with no shackles. If they aid Ismlamist extremist with WMD's then their "empowerment" needs to be erased. What you were suggesting is bombing a place full of elders, women and children. In no circumstances should that ever be acceptable, that is how hate is created. We should find suitable solutions, but the easiest ones(killing in mass) always result in more problems. Further..... Islamists are not defined by borders or regions. Their common thread is a religion and a persecution complex. Amongst other places, ungoverned areas like the Khyber pass and parts of western Pakistan serve as a refuge and a conduit for the jihad against the West. Agreed and as I said, while we should find solutions. Bombing a place dry is no solution. As for the West putting their tails between their legs, well, that is a far better option then using the full weight of their military. Because of that, the Islamists and their supporters have nothing but contempt for the West. They have learned that it only takes a few hundred or a few thousand body bags before the Western public cries and capitulates. Does one need barbiturates to imagine that if a car bomb sends shock waves through the Western world, what will something far more massive do? The cry of martyrdom demands more punishment upon the infidels and what better way to show them then to destroy a city or two. It's not an issue of extremists view or will, it's an issue of access. I'm not sure I understand this paragraph. That said, from what I've read, you're referring to the Iraq debacle(body bags and capitulation). Again, a western mistake, why take on another country when they could've actually resolved the afghan problem, instead they have their hands full because of greed. As for preparing to destroy a city, let's hope it never comes to that and trust me, bombing a muslim city right now would give the extremists all the political tools they need to destroy a city themselves. As for respect for me, it's irrelevent. That is my opinion and it does not seek approval. Just a manner of speaking, you're one of my top 3 favorite e-posters. Perhaps you are suprised by the hard line? That is because I see the world governed by increasing radicalized self interests amf ever larger consequences. My forefathers were Spartans and contrary to common opinion, the Spartans did not relish war. Why? Because they put their own chest on the line. They would try to find a saner solution through politics or compromise, but if none existed or none were left to them, then those who fought them knew the consequences. Things have not changed...other then a liberally applied thicker coat of veneered civility. Basically what you're suggesting is if we can't resolve the problem without war(which I believe we really have never tried to do so), then we should put them back in their place. A fair point of view, only there's a few things wrong with that I believe. First, you're closer to retirement then fighting age. You won't do the fighting, people like me will have to. It's easy for older people to have a hard stance when they know they won't actually have to do the dirty work. Second, have we really tried to use our political, monetary or whichever type of power to actually resolve the problems? Could you tell me that with a straight face? I don't believe so, I believe the problems stems from islamic mentality, then their governments and then western pressure for political gains. The third might be the tip of the iceberg, but it's also the drop that starts the flood. Let's give them a taste of western freedom and wealth one country at a time(which we had the chance to do many times) instead of bombing every other country randomly. First...The Arab world may have been "re-fragmented", or perhaps one should say re-organized by the West but it wasn't a homogeneous world to begin with. Not even close. A man living in Kuwait may identify with a Yemeni through culture and religion as much as I would identify with a white man in Australia. That does not make us "one nation" nor does it imply that I want Australia to be one nation with Canada nor do I see his problems as my problems. When all's said and done, every Arab considers himself an Arab. I shouldn't have mentionned the fragmentation though, as the Turks were the ones guilty of it first. The culture similarities between a man in Kuwait and a Yemeni is similar to a man in Texas and one in Vermont. They're both still americans. Secondly....Afganistan, sure, there was a king there for centuries but it was mostly run as a very lose tribal federation. Before the Soviets invaded, it was already an inept mess. Should the West have gone in and rebuild it after the soviet defeat? Perhaps one can argue that but to claim that the West created a terrorsit heaven is.....way over there. Further, if the West goes in, they are invaders, if they don't go in, they are responsible. There is NO middle ground here. Don't buy it. It was poor, but the mentality was different. I know people close to me who went during the 70s, wether the tribal federation existed makes no difference, women were actually allowed to go to school. The soviets destroyed the monarch, the US funded the Talibans. The height of irony being a line during the credits of Rambo, praising the great Taliban warriors. How things and opinions change quickly. I blame this on the internet and Kovalev. Thirdly...Israel was created by a nationalist movement of Jews who wanted a homeland. If you want to call Jews "Westerners" then guilty as charged. Well, how many North African Jews are running Israel? Exactly. Which culture do you think those millions of Eastern European Jews brought with them? Lastly....You make a direct rebuttal to my statement that Muslims can not be bystanders because of what the "West" did. Perhaps you may feel some guilt as a Westerner but I do not share it. If one looks long enough and hard enough, one may find the butterfly effect of Western civilization in every corner of the planet. That's what happens if one civilization is more advanced then another. However, to immerse a large part of a civilization into perennial victim hood and blame for ones own ineptitude is kind of sad. I feel no guilt at all, I'm too young(21) to have anything to do with the present problems. I will have a say in the future though. That said, as I've already mentionned many times, I do believe the problems in other lands, come from the mentality of the people first and foremost. But that's something we can't directly change, what the western world does though, we have a say. All I see is complete incompetence from our part, so I have reason to criticize. Neither my father nor my grandfather nor my great grandfather went on any crusade. I never stole a dime from Syria. My wife never sold bad fish in Kabul. In order for any country or civilization to prosper, it needs to shed man who use religion as shackles and to look forward. As much as dislike what the Chinese have done to my businesses, they have shed their collars of the past and are building a forward moving, thriving economy. Same thing for other Asian countries. It's time that some of the Arab/Muslim world did the same. If theres something I hope, it's that the Arab and Muslim world take from us and never from the Chinese(which will never happen anyways). Having talked to engineers who have worked there, they don't value anything, they build over contaminated soil, they don't care about human rights, children are often mistreated and forced to do things they don't want to, cheap and badly treated labor still exists. And when you think about it, the Chinese economy lives only because of low prices. What happens when the people start having money and the prices of exportation go up as well? Us North Americans start buying our own products again and China loses it's main source of income. HA, it's too damn bad you don't live in Montreal, I would've harrassed you with apps for a part time job. |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 28, 2007 18:58:10 GMT -5
Let the middle eastern problems be resolved by middle eastern people and let's stop intervening for once. If we don't intervene, they can't get rid of their tyrants. If we do intervene, we unleash a fury of hates for each other and feed every Imams wet dream for power. You can not have it both ways. The village idiot also known as Dabbwa Bush version of a wet dream was to get rid of Saddam, put in a dollar store version of the Marshal Plan and create a pro Western democracy. Instead, it's been a nightmare of power crazed interest from every conceivable corner of the region putting in his 10 cents worth of hate. Were you one of the following: bombed, stabbed, shot or killed? Did any of the following happen to you: Did anyone steal your home? Your land? Your money? Has anyone ever come with tanks and bulldozers to destroy your house? That jihad of yours would've been different. Another thing, our "liberalized" society also gave you the opportunity to thrive by giving you a cheap quality education without discrimination and by giving you the chance to take part in the lucrative capitalistic market. We call this social justice, that's what makes Canada great. Now, do you honestly believe that can be the case for palestinians? Or the muslim world, which is mainly very, very poor and governed by tyrants? They would need a total change of mentality, economic and political structure. That, my friend, does not come quickly and definetly does not worked when another country tries to force it... while stealing your ressources and destroying your infrastructure(see Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine). I do not apologize for living in a Western country. As for stealing resources, that is the first chapter from the Book of Myths. Iraq will cost a trillion dollar. That is enough to buy all the Iraqi oil and yet, not a ounce of it fills Joe Average gas tank. If you want to talk about regional hegemony, then that is another matter. Poverty is one of the reasons and really, reality speaks for itself. Where are the highest crime rates in north america? Where are the biggest drug businesses? The most wars? The most instability? And really, us westerners profit from it like you couldn't believe, not unlike smart investors during a bear market. The question we have to ask ourselves, since we're the ones with power, money and ressources is, should we intervene? If so, in what capacity and how. Right now, we're doing everything wrong since unlike before, it's actually hurting our economy and political power. How can we intervene and not intervene at the same time? Much like pregnancy, it's either one way or the other. They react in other ways and besides, let's be honest here. Which land is the most strategical geographically? Two clues, it happens to be a land full of energy ressources and it's a land that's been in a constant war since it's existance. You can't say that of Africa, Asia or eastern Europe. Besides, China has created an organization that kills innocents, their govermnent in Tibet. Let's not even talk about Russia... Or Africa for that matter with the usual genocide per decade. Only conviently, we don't care about that as westerners since it doesn't affect us in practical way. My example of some of those countries was to point out that they are forward leaning and not spending their energies creating placards of hate. What you were suggesting is bombing a place full of elders, women and children. In no circumstances should that ever be acceptable, that is how hate is created. We should find suitable solutions, but the easiest ones(killing in mass) always result in more problems. I don't do hypocracy well. You bomb our innocents then expect payback, tenfold. The liberal left may buy into the "we kill you because we are victims but you can't touch us" but not all of us do. If you are forced into a corner and nothing but violence solves the problem, then by all means, solve the problem with the best of your abilities. Political correctness only serves to enbolden the gun mentality. I'm not sure I understand this paragraph. That said, from what I've read, you're referring to the Iraq debacle(body bags and capitulation). Again, a western mistake, why take on another country when they could've actually resolved the afghan problem, instead they have their hands full because of greed. As for preparing to destroy a city, let's hope it never comes to that and trust me, bombing a muslim city right now would give the extremists all the political tools they need to destroy a city themselves. Again, I do not advocate taking pre-emptive action however, I would hold a high opinion of a Western leader who makes it clear that there will be massive payback to any and all involved. Clearly, if our Western society supported mass murder by the Clan, then it's our responsibility to deal with them. Why are Muslims exempt from the same repsonsibility? Just a manner of speaking, you're one of my top 3 favorite e-posters. If I am, then that's kind of frightening. Have you consider mental health insurance? You will need it if you keep reading what those little voices in my head gurgle...... Basically what you're suggesting is if we can't resolve the problem without war(which I believe we really have never tried to do so), then we should put them back in their place. No, I did not say that. What I am saying that if people of these regions think that they are no horrific consequences for participation in mass terrorism against Western states, then they need to understand what scorched earth means. I do not subscribe to the neocon notion of first strike unless there is overwhalming and undeniable evidence of imminent death. If there is undeniably credible evidence that there is a nuclear device in the Khyber pass heading for a city, then the Kyber pass needs to be thoroughly cleansed by whatever means required. A fair point of view, only there's a few things wrong with that I believe. First, you're closer to retirement then fighting age. You won't do the fighting, people like me will have to. It's easy for older people to have a hard stance when they know they won't actually have to do the dirty work. Wrong. I have seen walkers with machine gun mounts and of course, my favorite is the War Wheelie Wheelchair. Rocket launcher on either side controlled by a Sony universal remote control. Did I mention the swingaway 13 inch colour tv? We all have something to lose. While I may not participate directly in fighting, I can and will do everything I could to help. I can fly you there, fix your equipment, build you better equipment and do everything short of pulling the trigger. And I will do that too if given the chance. So no, you are not alone and you are not a sacrificial lamb for the Dow Jones. Second, have we really tried to use our political, monetary or whichever type of power to actually resolve the problems? Could you tell me that with a straight face? I don't believe so, I believe the problems stems from islamic mentality, then their governments and then western pressure for political gains. Problem stems from Islamic mentality? Where is the difference of opinion between us? I have argued, hopefully in a consistent and clear manner, that the root of the problem is a pervasive persecution complex and wells of past hatreds amongst the Arab/Persian community using Islam as a conduit for justification. That is 90% of the iceburg. I feel no guilt at all, I'm too young(21) to have anything to do with the present problems. I will have a say in the future though. That said, as I've already mentionned many times, I do believe the problems in other lands, come from the mentality of the people first and foremost. But that's something we can't directly change, what the western world does though, we have a say. All I see is complete incompetence from our part, so I have reason to criticize. Do you realize the consequences of that statement? You will no longer be invited to liberal left parties and the NDP will put you on their hit list. Then again, the NDP is too busy trying to find it's testicles. You agree with me far too much and causing all kinds of confusion with the voices in my head. The third might be the tip of the iceberg, but it's also the drop that starts the flood. Let's give them a taste of western freedom and wealth one country at a time(which we had the chance to do many times) instead of bombing every other country randomly. We are trying to give them a taste of freedom and prgress in Afganistan and yet we have a backlash from the liberal left within and Muslim nationalist gfrom without to pull our troops out. So now what? It goes back to the problem of "damn if you do and damn if you don't". No matter what the West does, short of getting on it's knees, it is wrong in somone eyes. I don't know about others, but I don't talk from my knees. When all's said and done, every Arab considers himself an Arab. I shouldn't have mentionned the fragmentation though, as the Turks were the ones guilty of it first. The culture similarities between a man in Kuwait and a Yemeni is similar to a man in Texas and one in Vermont. They're both still americans. Completely disagree. The man in Vermont will accept the man from Texas, or Melbourne, or Landon, or Paris, or even from Moscow and help him build a house next to him. The man from Yemeni doesn't give a damn about the Palestinian. Do you know how many Palestinians live in refuge camps all over the Middle East twenty years after the fact? The only unifying force seem to be an anti-Western complex. There is a reason why the West is where it is. Chief amongst them is that they do not have holy man slapping shackles and controlling lives. Secondly, not living in a well of hatreds. If theres something I hope, it's that the Arab and Muslim world take from us and never from the Chinese(which will never happen anyways). Having talked to engineers who have worked there, they don't value anything, they build over contaminated soil, they don't care about human rights, children are often mistreated and forced to do things they don't want to, cheap and badly treated labor still exists. And when you think about it, the Chinese economy lives only because of low prices. What happens when the people start having money and the prices of exportation go up as well? Us North Americans start buying our own products again and China loses it's main source of income. The Chinese where brought in as an example of a culture that is motivated, hard working and looking to the future rather then myred in the past. The details of how it's done, well, that is another sad matter. HA, it's too damn bad you don't live in Montreal, I would've harrassed you with apps for a part time job. Have you been reading DeSade again? *sigh* |
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Post by MC Habber on Sept 1, 2007 21:19:02 GMT -5
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