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Post by CentreHice on Feb 13, 2008 11:45:08 GMT -5
Wow.....McNamee is being ripped a new one right now.
The congressman questioning him is pointing out all the lies. He said that Clemens is a baseball "titan" in this country and that he's seen nor heard no evidence that Clemens has done anything wrong. Just McNamee's lies. If it was up to this guy, this whole hearing would be declared a circus and a waste of time.
Clemens should just shut his mouth, he's way ahead in the score right now. No doubt in my mind that he and countless others have done/do the juice.....but wasn't this back in the era that it wasn't illegal? Aren't we talking about his time with the Jays?
It's Petit's testimony that could have Clemens squirming though.
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Post by jkr on Feb 13, 2008 11:58:48 GMT -5
Wow.....McNamee is being ripped a new one right now. The congressman questioning him is pointing out all the lies. He said that Clemens is a baseball "titan" in this country and that he's seen nor heard no evidence that Clemens has done anything wrong. Just McNamee's lies. If it was up to this guy, this whole hearing would be declared a circus and a waste of time. Clemens should just shut his mouth, he's way ahead in the score right now. No doubt in my mind that he and countless others have done/do the juice.....but wasn't this back in the era that it wasn't illegal? Aren't we talking about his time with the Jays? It's Petit's testimony that could have Clemens squirming though. Isn't Pettitte trying to back out of testifying? Thought I heard that. |
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 13, 2008 12:04:04 GMT -5
McNamee is having a lot of trouble with dates/times. Inconsistencies abound.
He doesn't sound like the sharpest tack in the wall.
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Post by habmeister on Feb 13, 2008 12:11:00 GMT -5
steroids are an illegal drug unless prescribed in the USA and most countries, but MLB did not have a rule against using them.
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 13, 2008 12:38:18 GMT -5
steroids are an illegal drug unless prescribed in the USA and most countries, but MLB did not have a rule against using them. So what's all the fuss? |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 13, 2008 12:48:44 GMT -5
steroids are an illegal drug unless prescribed in the USA and most countries, but MLB did not have a rule against using them. So what's all the fuss? I'm wondering if this is the prelude to MLB cleaning up their sport. I know Bud Selig offered some lip service not too long ago. Cheers. |
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Post by Skilly on Feb 13, 2008 13:28:35 GMT -5
It's Petit's testimony that could have Clemens squirming though. clemens spent all last week schmoozing with Capitol Hill, letting them take pictures, signing autographs, and telling the "good ol baseball stories". Thursday, Friday, Monday and Tuesday I believe I read he met with 22 Senators.  Pettite does not have to testify. He signed an affidavit, and in it, it has been reported that he states that he spoke to Clemens at a party at Jose Canseco's about steroids. When Mitchell came out with his report, Petitte asked him what he was going to say, and mentioned the conversation they had all those years ago. Clemens told him he misinterpreted what he heard and they were talking about steroids for Clemens' wife. Of course, Jose Canseco comes out and says the party never happened and he never ever spoke to Clemes about steroids, ever...... So ... which is it? The party never happened. Canseco The party happened. Clemens and Pettite I never spoke about steroids with Clemens. Canseco I spoke about steroids with Canseco. Clemens and Pettite I heard you talk about steroids use with Canseco. Pettite. I never spoke about steroids with Clemens. Canseco We spoke about steroids for my wife. Clemens. They say one is lying .... ahh sounds to me like there are 2 people lying. And I am believing the guy that is scared and sought advice and put his word in writing. |
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 13, 2008 14:27:41 GMT -5
Both Chuck Knoblauch and Andy Petitte have admitted that McNamee injected them with HGH/steroids....and they were fully aware of it.
So why would McNamee (even though he could've benefitted from a personal secretary/memory course over the years) lie about Clemens?
That's the red flag to me.
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Post by habmeister on Feb 13, 2008 14:36:44 GMT -5
steroids are an illegal drug unless prescribed in the USA and most countries, but MLB did not have a rule against using them. So what's all the fuss? because they were breaking the law, and somebody is lying about it. i think it comes down to setting an example for young athletes, if roger is doing it, then i should too. that is a dangerous path to cross, i knew guys that juiced in baseball, it never crossed my mind, even though it probably would have gotten me a scholarship. but if it was as socially acceptable in baseball then, as it was a few years ago then who knows, maybe i would have. glad i stayed away though in hindsight, it isn't worth it. one of my best friends did steroids and hgh, he's huge, but i don't think he's going to live to see 60, he's always eating massive amounts of food and working out and his system can't take it. we weren't meant to look like hulk hogan, roger's face got a lot bigger too, it could have been creatine/water retention, but he looked juiced to me. |
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Post by BadCompany on Feb 13, 2008 14:45:09 GMT -5
Both Chuck Knoblauch and Andy Petitte have admitted that McNamee injected them with HGH/steroids....and they were fully aware of it. So why would McNamee (even though he could've benefitted from a personal secretary/memory course over the years) lie about Clemens? That's the red flag to me. I am not saying that Clemens didn't do it, but it's entirely possible that Radomski, and then McNamee, were simply trying to stay out of jail. The Mitchell report is long on names, but short on "name" names... No Arod, no Randy Johnson, no Derek Jeter, etc.. Lots of small-to-mid level guys, but nothing that makes you sit up and say "wow." Troy Glaus? Jason Giambi? Rondell White? Meh. So it's "possible" that like a bad detective movie the investigators told Radmoski that if he wanted to avoid jail he needed to come up with some big boys. Just like the street corner drug dealer can avoid jail by rolling over on the guys higher up on the food chain. Cops ain't going to care if he rats out another street-corner guy, they want the big fish. So Radomski, and then McNamee, were under a good deal of pressure to provide something of substance. If the biggest name they can come up with is Rafael Palmeiro, who had already been caught, then the whole thing would look like a white-wash. "Oh, they threw out a few names, but nothing that would affect the integrity of the sport or indicate that they were seriously dealing with the problem." But throw out Clemens... well, now you got people's attention. If the best you can come up with is FP Santengelo, then you're going to jail. But the Rocket... People will say and do anything to cover their own hides. The fact that Radomski, and then McNamee were facing jail time seriously clouds their testimony, in my opinion. They had NOTHING to lose by dropping the Rocket's name, and EVERYTHING to gain. Daughter of Time - who is saying it, why are they saying it, and what do they stand to gain by saying it... |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 13, 2008 15:05:22 GMT -5
Both Chuck Knoblauch and Andy Petitte have admitted that McNamee injected them with HGH/steroids....and they were fully aware of it. So why would McNamee (even though he could've benefitted from a personal secretary/memory course over the years) lie about Clemens? That's the red flag to me. I don't have the time to follow it very well today so I'm checking in here on the board. This revelation suggests quite a bit. It's still debatable WRT Clemens, though. The most dominating pitchers I've seen in my day: a. Roger Clemens, 7 Cy Young Awards b. Randy Johnson, Former Expo and 5 Cy Young Awards c. Pedro Martinez, d. Orel Hershiser, Have to mention that the 1988 run was probably the most dominating performance I've ever seen from any pitcher. e. Tom Glavine, the best at carving up the plate, 1 Cy Young f. Greg Maddux, 4 Cy Youngs and, with Glavine, part of the best 1-2 punch I can remember. I know there are other pitchers out there that have proven quite a bit, but these are the guys I've seen. Can you imagine if any one of these guys got busted? Cheers. |
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 13, 2008 15:18:00 GMT -5
People will say and do anything to cover their own hides. The fact that Radomski, and then McNamee were facing jail time seriously clouds their testimony, in my opinion. They had NOTHING to lose by dropping the Rocket's name, and EVERYTHING to gain. Petitte's a big name....not Clemens' big....but he's New York Yankee big, and he's admitted it. Clemens, too, is in that group of people that will say and do anything cover their own hides. |
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Post by BadCompany on Feb 13, 2008 15:32:01 GMT -5
People will say and do anything to cover their own hides. The fact that Radomski, and then McNamee were facing jail time seriously clouds their testimony, in my opinion. They had NOTHING to lose by dropping the Rocket's name, and EVERYTHING to gain. Petitte's a big name....not Clemens' big....but he's New York Yankee big, and he's admitted it. Clemens, too, is in that group of people that will say and do anything cover their own hides. Petitte is somewhat big, but hardly earth-shattering. Is Petitte going to the Hall of Fame? Or would he have even been considered for it? If, after all this turmoil, and money spent investigating ($20 million), would Andy Petitte be enough? Somehow I don't think so. The howling masses would want more. You are right that Clemens is in that group of people willing to say anything to cover his own hide, but he is also presumed innocent until proven guilty. That proof may yet come, but so far the only "proof" he has against him is the word of known liar with suspect motives, and some vials that may or may not be incriminating. |
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 13, 2008 15:40:38 GMT -5
Petitte's a big name....not Clemens' big....but he's New York Yankee big, and he's admitted it. Clemens, too, is in that group of people that will say and do anything cover their own hides. Petitte is somewhat big, but hardly earth-shattering. Is Petitte going to the Hall of Fame? Or would he have even been considered for it? If, after all this turmoil, and money spent investigating ($20 million), would Andy Petitte be enough? Somehow I don't think so. The howling masses would want more. You are right that Clemens is in that group of people willing to say anything to cover his own hide, but he is also presumed innocent until proven guilty. That proof may yet come, but so far the only "proof" he has against him is the word of known liar with suspect motives, and some vials that may or may not be incriminating. Clemens' ace in the hole (pardon the buttocks pun) is that he can always say he was injected...but that he thought it was B-12 or other supplements...i.e. the Barry Bonds' angle. There is no video-tape, audio tape....even the syringes and gauze won't be admissable. Too much interim time for tampering/fabricating evidence. If Clemens DID knowingly take steroids, administered by McNamee, he should have come out and said, "I tried it....it affected me adversely...and I quit immediately." But he's got an ego as big as his record....and he wants to remain untarnished. If he is innocent....then good on him. If he's acquitted....guilty or innocent....look for a huge defamation suit. It's likely already drawn up. |
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Post by BadCompany on Feb 13, 2008 15:45:39 GMT -5
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 13, 2008 16:29:13 GMT -5
Wow...I better start reading about things other than the Habs...  |
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Post by habmeister on Feb 13, 2008 18:48:11 GMT -5
Both Chuck Knoblauch and Andy Petitte have admitted that McNamee injected them with HGH/steroids....and they were fully aware of it. So why would McNamee (even though he could've benefitted from a personal secretary/memory course over the years) lie about Clemens? That's the red flag to me. I don't have the time to follow it very well today so I'm checking in here on the board. This revelation suggests quite a bit. It's still debatable WRT Clemens, though. The most dominating pitchers I've seen in my day: a. Roger Clemens, 7 Cy Young Awards b. Randy Johnson, Former Expo and 5 Cy Young Awards c. Pedro Martinez, d. Orel Hershiser, Have to mention that the 1988 run was probably the most dominating performance I've ever seen from any pitcher. e. Tom Glavine, the best at carving up the plate, 1 Cy Young f. Greg Maddux, 4 Cy Youngs and, with Glavine, part of the best 1-2 punch I can remember. I know there are other pitchers out there that have proven quite a bit, but these are the guys I've seen. Can you imagine if any one of these guys got busted? Cheers. all whose careers tailed off with age, only one had some of his best years in his 40's, suddenly roger went from retiring to being totally dominant and a lot bigger physically. pedro is another guy that went from skinny to big and a puffy face. you can hit the weights all you want, your head won't get bigger and face won't get bigger unless you're juiced or hgh. but innocent until proven guilty, doesn't mean you didn't do it. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Feb 13, 2008 23:32:31 GMT -5
Both Chuck Knoblauch and Andy Petitte have admitted that McNamee injected them with HGH/steroids....and they were fully aware of it. So why would McNamee (even though he could've benefitted from a personal secretary/memory course over the years) lie about Clemens? That's the red flag to me. I don't have the time to follow it very well today so I'm checking in here on the board. This revelation suggests quite a bit. It's still debatable WRT Clemens, though. The most dominating pitchers I've seen in my day: a. Roger Clemens, 7 Cy Young Awards b. Randy Johnson, Former Expo and 5 Cy Young Awards c. Pedro Martinez, d. Orel Hershiser, Have to mention that the 1988 run was probably the most dominating performance I've ever seen from any pitcher. e. Tom Glavine, the best at carving up the plate, 1 Cy Young f. Greg Maddux, 4 Cy Youngs and, with Glavine, part of the best 1-2 punch I can remember. I know there are other pitchers out there that have proven quite a bit, but these are the guys I've seen. Can you imagine if any one of these guys got busted? Cheers. Well said. To me the most dominating pitcher was Sandy Koufax. When he was on he blew the ball by the hitters. I never saw a more dominating hitter than Barry Bonds at his peak. Pitchers were afraid to give him anything. Never did see the Babe hit but he hit 60 homers in an era when other teams didn't hit 20. Do I really care if Barry's arms were three times the size of Hank's? Do I care what was in the syringe in Barry's ass? He hit anything anywhere near the plate. First Arnie, then Jack and now Tiger has passed them all. Incredible dominance. Gretzky is still the great one. Howe was the prototype hockey player, Beliveau class, Mikita dedication, Rocket determination, and Fergy kept the league on their toes. |
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Post by Skilly on Feb 14, 2008 7:45:14 GMT -5
I heard an interesting take on all this last night ..... First of all, if anyone saw any of the congressional hearing there was one thing that just jumped out at you. You'd be blind to miss it. The Republicans grilled MacNamee, the Democrats grilled Clemens. Right down party lines. Clemens, a Texan, is family friends with good ol G.W Bush, a fellow Texan, former owner of the Texas Rangers and a Republican. Wow, big surprise there I tell you. Now. MacNamee looks like a sleeze, probably is a sleeze. But Roger is no angel either. If you were in dealings with either of them, you'd want to cover your arse, pronto. This Republican Congressman from Indiana, that was trying for all he was worth to discredit MacNamee, was walking on shaky ground in my opinion. He left a door wide open for MacNamee to walk through, (and all the Republican Congressmen would have accepted and latched on to) but no one took the opportunity. Roger's career is coming into question during and after his years spent in Toronto. The nice Congressman from Indiana even brought in "tapes" of Blue Jays broadcasts proving the Roger was not at Jose Canseco's party. Well no one thought to mention when these broadcasters left the party .. .. alot earlier than the players I bet you. The possibility does exist that Roger went to that party after they had gone. But that's not the door MacNamee should have taken .... .... The Congressman bawled out at MacNamee "Are you kidding me? .. you want us to believe you kept gauzes and syringes for 8-10 years? I am not sure of the truth but I know I don't believe you" Something like that. Well MacNamee should have responded with a little "American political history" lesson to the good Congressman .... Why'd I keep them? Why'd I continue to be in the employ of a man I didn't trust? Well sir, this all occured in the summer of 1998. I remember sitting down and watching this young lady say she had sex with this high profile man. This man vehemently denied it, and this young lady's reputation came into disrepute. There were secret tapes, phone conversations, and everything she brought up was crushed by this team of high profile lawyers. But then she produced "evidence", evidence she kept unbeknownst to the man. When she produced her tainted dress - that very man found himself in this very room, squirming during an impeachment. I thought that could be me one day - and if Miss Lewinsky was here I'd thank her for giving me the idea to cover my behind. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 14, 2008 8:20:27 GMT -5
Well said. To me the most dominating pitcher was Sandy Koufax. When he was on he blew the ball by the hitters. Didn't Kofax even let hitters know when his fastball was coming? I think he used to tap the mound twice before letting it go ... something like that. It's too bad really. Had Barry simply admitted to it, like Mark McGuire did, it would probably have been over very quickly. If history tells us anything, it suggests that the American sports public can be very forgiving. They'll be drawn into the controversy, shocked at the revelation but still awed by the home runs and fastballs. As for The Big Bambino, well, if chemicals are the topic, he does not escape scrutiny. I'm fairly sure if DNA tests could be done, we'd be able to ascertain just how many hot dogs and beers this guy had in his system. God love 'em. However, we had our scandals as well here in Canada. Where I had a problem with it, was when we dangled "Benoid" Johnson by his short-and-curlys for the world to see. This is where I see both Bonds and Clemens going now. More's to pity. A different category of athlete here, HFLA. We could add a few more, but each of the athletes you've cited have a quality not shared by many athletes nowadays; humility. Cheers. |
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 14, 2008 10:35:30 GMT -5
However, we had our scandals as well here in Canada. Where I had a problem with it, was when we dangled "Benoid" Johnson by his short-and-curlys for the world to see. Poor Ben. A cheater, yes....but I think it's come out that almost everyone in that 100m final was on the juice....most notably, Mr. Lewis. And we'd be naive to believe that Olympians are totally clean now. They're just on better schedules/masking agents. At least we can say, Ben was the fastest Roidrunner. Meep meep. ------------------------------------------------------- I've mentioned this before....during the many Barry Bonds' discussions on the Fan 590, they interviewed a pitcher from the Bob Gibson era....basically the 60s. (His name escapes me). He said players were taking things back then that they wouldn't give a horse. Didn't even have to worry about masking it. |
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Post by jkr on Feb 14, 2008 11:18:21 GMT -5
I keep thinking of marion Jones.
She was so full of righteous indignation. No one was going to ruin her reputation and she was prepared to sue anyone. She employed the full court press for years and denied and denied.
In the end she was just another cheater and a liar. I wish these peopel would just admit what they did & move on. It's all going to come out eventualy.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 14, 2008 11:22:39 GMT -5
I've mentioned this before....during the many Barry Bonds' discussions on the Fan 590, they interviewed a pitcher from the Bob Gibson era....basically the 60s. (His name escapes me). He said players were taking things back then that they wouldn't give a horse. Didn't even have to worry about masking it. Denny McLain (last 30-game winner in the majors ... Google "from the big time to the big house" when you have a moment) Jim Palmer, Orioles Ernie McNalley, Orioles "Sudden" Sam MacDowell Cleveland Indians' ace, later with the Yankees Ferguson Jenkins, Cubs Tom Seaver, Mets, Garry Nolan, Reds Clay Carrol, Reds |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 14, 2008 11:40:04 GMT -5
However, we had our scandals as well here in Canada. Where I had a problem with it, was when we dangled "Benoid" Johnson by his short-and-curlys for the world to see. Poor Ben. A cheater, yes....but I think it's come out that almost everyone in that 100m final was on the juice....most notably, Mr. Lewis. And we'd be naive to believe that Olympians are totally clean now. They're just on better schedules/masking agents. At least we can say, Ben was the fastest Roidrunner. Meep meep. If there is a positive in that, it has to be that Canada showed the rest of the world that we're willing to play it clean. I remember where I was when Johnson broke the record and where I was when he was busted. The Canadian radio station in Germany said, "... apparently, a drink bought by a mysterious stranger ..." after that the rest of the story sounded like Charlie Brown's teacher. The international press destroyed this guy. The British tabloids ran this one to death only to have their own Linford Christy test positive a few years later. Now Clemens. I don't know if publicly crucifying he and Bonds will get the desired results. It will have to be up to MLB crook commissioner Bug Selig. And he's all for what the owners want. Cheers. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Feb 14, 2008 13:17:38 GMT -5
Can't claim credit for this one I heard.
Ted Kennedy whispering to Barac Obama, "I'll take Hillary for a drive in my car if you promise to make me vice-president."
Much worse than sticking a needle in your ass with a substance that was or wasn't legal is the coverup and lying about it.
Bill had a foolish indiscretion in the Oval Orafice. It's over.
What bothers me is him standing in front of the Senate and Public on TV and wagging his finger saying "I never had sexual relations with that woman, not one time!" The cover up is far worse than the original crime.
In Clemens case, he was a great pitcher for a long time. He was big and muscular (fat in the later years) and he threw strikes.
BJ Ben Johnson was fast when he was on the juice and merely pretty fast when he was not. It is monumentally unfair to the other athletes who played by the rules.
The athletes on Marion Jones relay team are deprived of a medal they would have won without her and her drugs.
The women that was given Marion's gold medal 10 years late never heard her anthem played with her flag in the middle and never capitalized on the Cheerios box like she deserved. Marion publicly denounced her ex-husband for taking drugs and cheating when she did the same thing but wasn't caught yet.
Hard to believe that I'm a moralist, but I guess I am.
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Post by Skilly on Feb 14, 2008 23:13:07 GMT -5
I've read two reports today that say that Clemens' nanny stated that she was at Canseco's BBQ, with Debbie Clemens, Roger Clemens and their kids. She claimed they even spent the night.
Then tonight I see reporters chasing her around and she is denying that Roger was there. hmmmmm Debbie, the kids and the nanny go to a Canseco party, but not Roger?
Reading the congressional hearing statements, Waxman asked Clemens why he had the nanny (who he hadn't seen in 7 years) over to his house this weekend. He responded with "I thought I was doing you all a favour". It seems Roger pressured her to say he wasn't there, "you dont remember me being there, because I wasnt there" ... what a second .... you said Pettite "misremembered" the conversation you had with Canseco, the conversation Pettite says he heard at the same party. Liar Liar ... pants on fire ....
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 15, 2008 9:22:33 GMT -5
I heard a Clemens' clip yesterday.....saying something along the lines of, "....steroids are wrong, and I'd like to take this opportunity to tell all tke kids out there that it's not worth it...it's a lot better when you get there clean...." Gentlemen...he's telling the kids to stay clean....now I ask you, would a guilty man do that? Trying a bit too hard, perhaps? Plucking too many strings? Richard Emery, one of McNamee's lawyers, made a prediction after the first day: Richard Emery, one of McNamee’s lawyers, said that some Republicans treated his client harshly because of Clemens’ friendship with the Bush family. Emery predicted the pitcher will be pardoned by President Bush should Clemens be indicted or convicted of anything related to the hearing.
“It would be the easiest thing in the world for George W. Bush, given the corrupt proclivities of his administration, to say Roger Clemens is an American hero, Roger Clemens helped children,” said Emery, an attorney who has worked for liberal causes. “It’s my belief they have some reason to believe they can get a pardon.”
“Richard Emery just has to quit smoking his own dope,” said Rusty Hardin, one of Clemens’ attorneys.
As for a pardon from a president? “I’m not aware of Mr. Clemens having been charged with anything,” White House deputy press secretary Tony Fratto said. |
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