Fitna. (Adult content)

[franko]

disgruntled70shab said:

franko said:

One final thing: Bush's biggest mistake was going to war with Afghanistan and then Iraq. If he'd have kept his isolationist policy (instead of listening to his advisers) I think this whole issue would have dissipated by now.

IMHO, Bush's best decision was to go after the cowards who planned 9/11 and they were in Afghanistan. However, his biggest mistake there was not following through on the mission itself. At first I felt he demonstrated all the correct actions in getting to the perpetrator, Bin Laden. Heck, he had him so incensed Bin Laden was actually visually upset, mad and frightened on camera.

I don't know, Dis . . . didn't Bush start to lose the populist favour even before he abandoned Afghanistan?

And as was pointed out a couple of years ago, Afghanistan is no place to wage war, as terrain is not conducive to prolonged success. Add to that the thought that they learned nothing from the conflict in Viet Nam . . . it was doomed to fail before it began.

If you are going to go in, though, you need to know that it is long term, that the body count will be large, and that you will have to wipe out a large percentage of the population in order to win.

[Cranky]

redscull said:

Violence begets violence, but turning the other shoulder isn't going to accomplish anything either. So where do we stand?

Where do we stand? For one thing, don't let "political correctness" overtake us. Call things for what they are. Challange those amongst us who want to spread their guilt on themselves and us.

"Turning the other shoulder"......

This Western notion of "understanding" must have limits. Let's face facts, the essence of terror is to make people compliant through violence. If we do NOT respond with weakness and we can extend FAR MORE violence then inflicted on us, it will make people think twice. Religion can be a rallying cry but becomes irrelevant when there is no food on the table.

On the other hand, we are our worst enemy. We let ourselves believe that people will see the "light" according to our belief system. We question oursleves and carry guilt like farm animals. Those who want to bend us know that we are easily manilupated. Rockets are fired from behind children then show the death of those same chiildren as proof of Western evil. Some of us buy it. Some of us even believe it and want absolution. Thankfully, it's only some, not all.

[Cranky]

mic said:

I hope you're right. But I can't see how this would work. I fear that this just fuels these extremists. The 'See what they think of us? Would you rather be alone with them or with us?' type of logic. You hope that it will occur in the long run, but how do you think that this will happen? How do you think that such an approach would influence a kid whose parent's are involved in one of the many conflicts of the Near and Middle East? I suspect that buying him off is much more efficient. Help him having a strong and stable state, and make sure that he has sufficient income to make him think twice before going to explode himself in a terror attack. In a sense, show the efficiency of western democracies by making him have a better life. Attacking beliefs seems to me a sign of weakness that is not needed.

As with any human, I am influenced by the lessons taught in my Western environment, I want to believe that eventually, people see things for what they are. On the other hand, I also see how easily people are controlled by the message of the medium. Mass media in the West and mullahs in Islam. So the question becomes....will the masses educate themselves fast enough or well enough to question the mediums? I don't really know.

Attacking beliefs......

I keep writing and rewriting my thoughts but in the end it comes to this......there were mass riots the FIRST time those cartoons were published. There were mass riots when the pope made some comments. There are far less riots now and this video was far more ignitive. Why? Have the walls been breached? And breaching walls has never been fun or bloodless or easy.

[Cranky]

disgruntled70shab said:

Push over Mr Condell ... you've got competition.

White Women marry dogs and donkeys in Denmark

Two sides to every story I guess.

Cheers.

If he took the sheet off from his head, made it into a cone, cut out two eye holes and wore it, I wouldn't need subtitles.

[Cranky]

machabby said:

I watched 30 seconds of it, and that was enough for me. I can scarcely imagine the reaction if someone made a "film" like that about the bible and, say, the bombing of Iraq for the last 10 years... or Hiroshima. I imagine Bill O'Reilly's head would explode.

The fact is that it would be tolerated by Western society, even applauded by some (you?) and nobody would scream for the death of the author.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

franko said:

We have the bomb.
We must not tell our children that we failed to use it and it led to millions of deaths in our own country.
No more Arab soldiers killed.
Wipe out the infidels.

Matter of perspective, my friend. And not a good one at that. No one wins.

Franko;
Your impecable logic is not lost on me and I see the parallel.
I believe that you should explore negotiations first, however there is no point in negotiating with a hijacker in the cockpit of an airplane when he is flying the plane. I don't see the point in negotiation with terrorists as depicted in the video.
I prefer to negotiate with the terrorists the way that John Ferguson would negotiate with Eddie Shack punctuating his points for emphasis. If some (not so innocent bystanders get hurt) so be it.

[Polarice]

I have a huge problem with religion period!! Millions of innocent people have been killed in the name of Gods. People trying to force their beliefs onto others IMO is wrong.

Like Skilly already quoted, "Imagine there's no countries, It isn't hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, And no religion too, Imagine all the people, Living life in peace"

[Disgruntled70sHab]

polarice said:

I have a huge problem with religion period!! Millions of innocent people have been killed in the name of Gods. People trying to force their beliefs onto others IMO is wrong.

Like Skilly already quoted, "Imagine there's no countries, It isn't hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, And no religion too, Imagine all the people, Living life in peace"

An interesting quote from the movie, "Kingdom of Heaven."

(hospitaler)I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not.

[franko]

polarice said:

I have a huge problem with religion period!!

Religion . . . something dear to my heart! ;D

Without trying to defend religiosity and the hypocrisy found therein . . .

Millions of innocent people have been killed in the name of Gods.

And millions of people have been killed in the name of non-gods. In the name of . . .

In other words, a convenient excuse.

one interesting article

and another

yet one more

People trying to force their beliefs onto others IMO is wrong.

You will have no disagreement with me here. Discussion without name-calling is a good thing, and in the end we can disagree with each other's core beliefs, while accepting each other as people.

Like Skilly already quoted, "Imagine there's no countries, It isn't hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, And no religion too, Imagine all the people, Living life in peace"

Yes . . . imagine.

Imagine that there are no countries or borders . . . that we could travel and live wherever we may want to . That would be interesting.

Imagine that there is nothing to kill or die for. I'm trying. Does it mean "a chicken in every pot"? Does it mean that we all drive the same kind of vehicles, live in the same size houses, have the same kind of television, eat the same kind of food . . . well, I know I'm taking it to an extreme . . . but thoughts of this Utopia always bring images of Animal Farm to mind.

The last link mentions Reinhold Niebuhr: religion provided a way of thinking about political life that balanced moral ideals against political realities. Religious faith points not to the abolition of war, he argued, but to a hope "beyond history" that human beings may eventually live in a peaceable kingdom on Earth. As such, religion provides expression to humanity's deepest aspirations, and sets the attainment of peace as an ideal for which people ought to hope and work.

At the same time, Niebuhr argued, religion does not suggest that human beings can attain lasting peace in any actual, historical moment. The best they can achieve is "peace of a sort," a more or less stable equilibrium between moral ideals and power interests.

Unfortunately, With this in mind, conflict between political communities is to be expected. In particular cases, religious values support war as a tragic, though justifiable means of policy.

I am anti-war. Pro-peace. However you want to say it. Even though I am one of those right-wing Christian types, I don't like what is happening in the Middle East, disagree with the thought that it all falls under biblical prophecy (other than to agree that the Bible says we are all selfish at heart).

afaiac, and as I suggested to Dis in an earlier post, I think Bush blew it by attacking Afghanistan. I look at it primarily from a religious/Christian angle: our "founder" was called the Prince of Peace, not the Prince of war. The new age that He wanted to usher in was one of global compassion, tolerance, and love, not one of global domination. But lands and dollars tend to get in the way . . . and selfishness . . . and greed . . .

Hmmm . . . I think we've been through this before. Blaise? ;D

I would love to see "all the people living life in peace" [and actually, religion has a part to play in that!] Unfortunately, expunge religion from the world . . . and people will find another reason to fight.

[franko]

disgruntled70shab said:

An interesting quote from the movie, "Kingdom of Heaven."

Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness.

Sounds like any one of the Old Testament prophets who railed against the religiosity of the day, or like Jesus, who did the same.

What god desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not.

[/i][/quote]
Can I hear an "Amen!".

[Disgruntled70sHab]

franko said:

disgruntled70shab said:

IMHO, Bush's best decision was to go after the cowards who planned 9/11 and they were in Afghanistan. However, his biggest mistake there was not following through on the mission itself. At first I felt he demonstrated all the correct actions in getting to the perpetrator, Bin Laden. Heck, he had him so incensed Bin Laden was actually visually upset, mad and frightened on camera.

I don't know, Dis . . . didn't Bush start to lose the populist favour even before he abandoned Afghanistan?

I think you're right, Franko. Before 9/11 he might have been considered a lame-duck president.

And as was pointed out a couple of years ago, Afghanistan is no place to wage war, as terrain is not conducive to prolonged success. Add to that the thought that they learned nothing from the conflict in Viet Nam . . . it was doomed to fail before it began.

Warfare in the conventional sense, or warfare as we've known it in the past, was determined to be the wrong approach from the get-go. I don't have firsthand experience in the region so I can't really comment on how the battle is being waged.

Was the mission doomed from the start? No, I don't think so. However, I do believe that the mission would be progressing much faster if all NATO countries contributed combat troops.

If you are going to go in, though, you need to know that it is long term, that the body count will be large, and that you will have to wipe out a large percentage of the population in order to win.

Wiping out generations of people simply doesn't work. Removing the threat is paramount. In this case I believe the main threat to be an anti-western ideology being forced onto a people.

The best way to combat that, in my opinion, is to replace it with a more positive ideology. Our troops are actually doing that in two ways:

a. they're rebuilding schools and infrastructure, and

b. they're taking the fight to those who consider our western way of life and ideologies a thread to their beliefs and personal agendas.

Cheers.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

habsaddict said:

disgruntled70shab said:

Push over Mr Condell ... you've got competition.

White Women marry dogs and donkeys in Denmark

Two sides to every story I guess.

Cheers.

If he took the sheet off from his head, made it into a cone, cut out two eye holes and wore it, I wouldn't need subtitles.

Not much of a difference is there? I think the main thing these two sides have in common might be fear.

Cheers.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

franko said:

disgruntled70shab said:

An interesting quote from the movie, "Kingdom of Heaven."

Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness.

Sounds like any one of the Old Testament prophets who railed against the religiosity of the day, or like Jesus, who did the same.

What god desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not.

[/i][/quote]
Can I hear an "Amen!".
[/quote]
If you haven't seen the movie, Franko, you can pick it up next time you're on your way through K-Town. "What God desires" is discussed and fought over the entire movie.

Cheers.

[Doc Holliday]

franko said:

docholliday said:

...a certain guy once convinced enough people that a certain religion was taking over his country and the world and it had to stop. With half truths, distorted facts, and lies, he was able to convince his people that for their own sake, they had to protect themselves against that religion that was spreading, taking over governments, banks, etc... threatening the very fiber of its nation.

It was more than a Jewish purge, though, Doc -- any non-white non-straight non-perfectly healthy person (physically or mentally) was subject to the concentration camp and/or death. ..

...Hitlers goals were largely and mostly anti-semitic at the base.

franko said:

docholliday said:

...
Propaganda, desinformation, instill fear and provoke hate towards a certain target.

...that video is nothing but a plea for another racial purge, this time on Muslims.

The video (at least what I saw of it) goes to far and focuses on everything evil about Muslims. But do you agree that some radicals go this far? Should they be censured?

fwiw, my next door neighbour is Muslim. I have friends who are Muslim. One cannot return home to Iran to visit his family because he fears he will be killed because he is a moderate.

Unfortunately, voices of moderates are not as loud as those who are not. But I think they are becoming louder and that may make a difference.

And hopefully the voices of moderate Westerners will become louder as well.

One final thing: Bush's biggest mistake was going to war with Afghanistan and then Iraq. If he'd have kept his isolationist policy (instead of listening to his advisers) I think this whole issue would have dissipated by now.

...this video suggests (a) that every muslims are violent racists in search of blood because of a few quotes from the Qran and some clips from leaders... and (b) it suggests that the increase in popularity of the Islamic religion in the Netherlands and in Europe is a problem that has to be dealt with... That's the issue I have with this video.

There is zero doubt in my mind that the author puts every Mulslims in the same bag and wishes for some form of restriction over the Islamic movement.

I do feel that radicals, no matter the religion, are dangerous for world peace. But this is not what that video is about.

[Polarice]

I don't like bashing religion or the importantance of it in some peoples lives, but the root of most of the problems in this world usually boils down to religious differences. From the days of the Greeks and the Romans, to the Crusades, the Salem Witch trails, the World Wars, and to the war we're fighting today have been in some part related to religion.

I know we will never have a world without religion and nor should we have too, but unless something changes, eventually we're gonna end up killing until there is no one left to kill.

[Skilly]

habsaddict said:

mic said:

I keep writing and rewriting my thoughts but in the end it comes to this......there were mass riots the FIRST time those cartoons were published. There were mass riots when the pope made some comments. There are far less riots now and this video was far more ignitive. Why? Have the walls been breached? And breaching walls has never been fun or bloodless or easy.

Glen Beck had a show on this "Fitna" video.

And there have been riots in Pakistan and Indonesia (that I know of) over this.

One expert opinion (some guy on Beck's show) on this stated "The Dutch are fed up with people coming into their country, taking their hospitality for granted and refusing to live as Dutch" .... hmmmm sounds awful American. Btw, those three politicians that made that video ar elikely to increase their representation in their legislature from 9 to alot more because of this.

[Skilly]

franko said:

I would love to see "all the people living life in peace" [and actually, religion has a part to play in that!] Unfortunately, expunge religion from the world . . . and people will find another reason to fight.

Got to say franko, I respect you, I respect your religion, I respect your right to religious freedom, and I really admire alot of my friends who have more faith than I could ever muster..... but I entirely diasgree that religion has any part to play in a "utopia on earth".

Religion is too exclusive in utopia in heaven, therefore I can't see how it can be inclusive on earth.

Just a few examples:

Jehovah's Witness: Only 144000 get into heaven. The Anointed (144,000) will be in heaven to reign with Jehovah God. The rest of the faithful Jehovah's Witnesses (not of the 144,000) will live forever on a paradise Earth.

Christianity: To get into utopia in heaven you have to accept Jesus Christ as your saviour.

Islam: Very similar to Christianity. The Muslim doctrine of salvation is that unbelievers (kuffar, literally "those who are ungrateful") and sinners will be condemned, but genuine repentance results in Allah's forgiveness and entrance into Paradise upon death.

===============================================================

Without religion, in any shape or fashion, it is easier to obtain utopia. Religion dictate you "must believe". Not you "should believe". And although I blame the church for this and not God - because my God doesn't care what I believe, my God only cares how I live my life - believers do share some of the blame for letting the Church do it.

In utopia, Animal Farm or not, everyone is welcomed, believers, non-believers, Islam, Christian, black and white ... everyone ... the only caveat would be that your daily actions are conducted based on one general principle - knowing right from wrong. And it really isn't a caveat because thats the definition of eutopia. In Greek, eutopia is "good will" So Utopia is an ideal society where goodwill reigns.

Who cares what you believe as long as you do good.

[franko]

Skilly: I'll get back to you on this [seems a lot of these threads wind up discussion of religious matters . . . and for the most part tolerant and accepting of each others' beliefs and/or non-beliefs} . . . and my interpretation [as one of those narrow minded right wing conservative traditional yada yada yada guys] [and lets face it: it is all personal interpretation, either for or against or however] may be of great surprise. I will point you to a much-ignored passage of the Bible that many Christians don't like. And I'll point you to C. S. Lewis' The Last Battle.

And then I'd like to hear from the peanut gallery. Polarice? HA? Dis? MC? I'll be ready!

[franko]

Dissertation on Religion: A Somewhat Christian Perspective

[disclaimer] my thoughts and my thoughts only; even though I am of a traditional/evangelical Christian mindset, these are only my impressions and interpretations. each person has his or her ideas and understanding. some may find me too dogmatic and conservative/fundamentalist; others may find me too liberal. whatever: in the end, we really don’t know![/disclaimer]

I said

I would love to see "all the people living life in peace" [and actually, religion has a part to play in that!]

but Skilly said

I entirely diasgree that religion has any part to play in a "utopia on earth".

Religion is too exclusive in utopia in heaven, therefore I can't see how it can be inclusive on earth.

Religion is said to be “man’s search for God”; unfortunately too often we anthropomorphize/make God into our image Him. It’s like people have a notion of who or how God is – preconceived or developed/developing – and can’t/won’t see beyond it. The problem lies in our understanding of God and in our expression of God; that is, as you have pointed out, the examples of the JWs and Islam – and a lot of Christianity.

There is great diversity in the beliefs of monotheists and polytheists (better defined as the difference between eastern and western religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam vrs Buddhism, Hinduism, and other eastern meditative religious entities and African animist entities). Monotheists are more likely to say “my understanding is more complete” ; polytheists and meditationists are more likely to say “we are but one step to godhood” [though they might often suggest that the path they suggest is better clearer].

My stand is that of a Christian: that the Jesus of history pointed to a God who wasn’t interested in religious activity but a righteous life (I guess I’m going to have to watch Kingdom of Heaven). A righteous life includes “love your neighbour as yourself”– a far too often neglected part of spirituality, imo. Add to that the almost gleeful attitude [by conservative Christians] that sinners are bound for hell, and it is no wonder that Christianity is seen to be failing. As C. S. Lewis [my favourite author, in case you haven’t been able to tell] points out, most fundamentalist Christians want eternal punishment for sinners so their “good lives” have not been in vain; however, this desire for retribution is itself sin . . . that which keeps us from the presence of God.

All that to say that while religion/spirituality has a great place in leading to peace, people have taken the teachings of spiritual leaders and bent them to their own purposes – and we ourselves will be judged for what we have done [As Jesus said "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'” And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'” Matthew 7:21-23]

[how did we get into a discussion of the afterlife . . . ]

[franko]

In utopia, Animal Farm or not, everyone is welcomed, believers, non-believers, Islam, Christian, black and white ... everyone ... the only caveat would be that your daily actions are conducted based on one general principle - knowing right from wrong. And it really isn't a caveat because thats the definition of eutopia. In Greek, eutopia is "good will" So Utopia is an ideal society where goodwill reigns.

Who cares what you believe as long as you do good.

Skilly: when did you become some biblically aware? OK: if I were to get into a discussion and mention some of the following ideas with some people I know I would be crucified labelled a heretic. But that’s OK, because it is what I believe . . . and because, in the end, no one knows for sure and won’t until “the end”.

From the Christian Bible: Romans chapter 2 talks about God’s judgement: that “God will render to each one according to his deeds” and suggests that each one will be judged by what they know. Further, Revelation 20 says that “the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books”.

I – I – take this to mean that even those who do not as you put it “accept Jesus Christ as [their] saviour” (a nebulous and now-archaic term) will indeed be judged by their lives lived. Orthodoxy is not as important as some make it out to be. [having said that, I do indeed believe that living by biblical principles and being a follower of Jesus makes a huge difference in a person’s life].

aside: Utopia comes from the Greek οὐ -τόπος, or "not-place"; in other words, an impossible ideal]

[franko]

polarice said:

I don't like bashing religion or the importantance of it in some peoples lives, but the root of most of the problems in this world usually boils down to religious differences. From the days of the Greeks and the Romans, to the Crusades, the Salem Witch trails, the World Wars, and to the war we're fighting today have been in some part related to religion.

I know we will never have a world without religion and nor should we have too, but unless something changes, eventually we're gonna end up killing until there is no one left to kill.

Here is where we differ: I think that religion is just an excuse for people to do what they want to do. As I said, “expunge religion from the world . . . and people will find another reason to fight”. No religion does not mean no fighting – it just means no fighting because “god told me to”.

Fact is, god can tell me to do anything I really want to do. True story: one day a couple of years after her graduation my wife’s best (high school) friend had a knock at her door. On the threshold: a guy she had met once or twice (as post/high school guys go, not one of the “in-crowd”; in fact, on the outer fringes). He calmly announced that God had told him that they were to get married. She was, as you can imagine, quite taken aback: first, by the fact it was a person she hardly knew; second, by the fact it was a person she had had no interest in dating or getting to know, let alone sharing the rest of her life with; third, by the fact that . . . well, it added up. She didn’t know what to do. [her final reply: that God hadn’t told her that they should be married so she couldn’t – smart lady!].

God – the term “the will of God” – is used to dignify many actions that are undignifiable and out-and-out wrong (slavery, for example, and as we are talking here, war). Unfortunately.

And you are most certainly right when you say that unless something changes, eventually we're gonna end up killing until there is no one left to kill.

[franko]

docholliday said:

...this video suggests (a) that every muslims are violent racists in search of blood because of a few quotes from the Qran and some clips from leaders... and (b) it suggests that the increase in popularity of the Islamic religion in the Netherlands and in Europe is a problem that has to be dealt with... That's the issue I have with this video.

There is zero doubt in my mind that the author puts every Mulslims in the same bag and wishes for some form of restriction over the Islamic movement.

I do feel that radicals, no matter the religion, are dangerous for world peace. But this is not what that video is about.

And that, I guess, is what I get for not watching it through to the end.

It is not right that all are tarred with the same paint brush. It is also not right that such vitriol [re: the Jews] is taught.

[franko]

Almost forgot: in c. S. Lewis's The Last Battle Emeth, a follower of Tash, is welcomed into "Aslan's country" during the final destruction of Narnia. Aslan said "all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me," and "For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he had truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted."

In other words [as I see it], God knows our hearts, and we are judged worthy or condemned by our attitudes and our lives.

And I'll leave it to Him . . . and worry about my own life.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

I watched the FITNA video a second and third time and have reached an epiphany. I am now converting to Islam, voting for Hillary or Obama and will exclusively converse in French. My favorite team is now the Leafs and I have replaced my car with a bicycle to build up green credits.

[habmeister]

disgruntled70shab said:

franko said:

One final thing: Bush's biggest mistake was going to war with Afghanistan and then Iraq. If he'd have kept his isolationist policy (instead of listening to his advisers) I think this whole issue would have dissipated by now.

IMHO, Bush's best decision was to go after the cowards who planned 9/11 and they were in Afghanistan. However, his biggest mistake there was not following through on the mission itself. At first I felt he demonstrated all the correct actions in getting to the perpetrator, Bin Laden. Heck, he had him so incensed Bin Laden was actually visually upset, mad and frightened on camera.

However, he adjusted his arcs of fire to Iraq. That alone was the biggest, single-most significant error of his presidency. It was this decision to invade Iraq that cost him any international respect he or his government might have had.

After that, Afghanistan took a back seat. And Bin Laden? Well, by Bush's own admission, he didn't think of him too often.

What's up with that!!! He tags a guy as the chief plotter to 9/11 and then gives up looking for him???!!!

However, he has since moved more American troops into the Afghan theatre of operations. And it's about time.

Cheers.

why didn't bush just nip it in the bud before it happened? he had the intelligence, er, i mean his people had the inkling that they were planning such an attack.

i was in the USA on 9/11 and spent the next 6 days there travelling, and i never heard one american or tv reporter or anyone from that country ask "why?". it was all, let's go get em!!! i found that really puzzling, because as bad as i felt for the americans that perished in that event, the sanctions and remote slavery that that country uses kills far more people than a couple of planes flying into the towers.

how come nobody ever attacks buddhism?

[Disgruntled70sHab]

habmeister said:

disgruntled70shab said:

IMHO, Bush's best decision was to go after the cowards who planned 9/11 and they were in Afghanistan. However, his biggest mistake there was not following through on the mission itself. At first I felt he demonstrated all the correct actions in getting to the perpetrator, Bin Laden. Heck, he had him so incensed Bin Laden was actually visually upset, mad and frightened on camera.

However, he adjusted his arcs of fire to Iraq. That alone was the biggest, single-most significant error of his presidency. It was this decision to invade Iraq that cost him any international respect he or his government might have had.

After that, Afghanistan took a back seat. And Bin Laden? Well, by Bush's own admission, he didn't think of him too often.

What's up with that!!! He tags a guy as the chief plotter to 9/11 and then gives up looking for him???!!!

However, he has since moved more American troops into the Afghan theatre of operations. And it's about time.

Cheers.

why didn't bush just nip it in the bud before it happened? he had the intelligence, er, i mean his people had the inkling that they were planning such an attack.

i was in the USA on 9/11 and spent the next 6 days there travelling, and i never heard one american or tv reporter or anyone from that country ask "why?". it was all, let's go get em!!! i found that really puzzling, because as bad as i felt for the americans that perished in that event, the sanctions and remote slavery that that country uses kills far more people than a couple of planes flying into the towers.

Well, people asking the right questions now. There's a lot of people who believe that the whole 9/11 disaster was akin to the attack on Pearl Harbour.

Conspiracy theorists claim to have provided a lot of 'proof' that suggests 9/11 was deliberately ignored and later supported by the Bush administration, so as to give them an excuse to do whatever they wanted in the Middle East. But, while they make some interesting points here and there, the ones they missed on, they missed on big time. This is where they lost me.

However, the way people are (a very general reference, not a reflection on any one group) nowadays, as soon as they hear 'conspiracy' they instantly sink their teeth into it. You can feed them all the bunk you want and they'll eat it up because they want that controversy.

Then, of course, we see the "Debunking 9/11 Conspiracies" websites popping up everywhere. And as soon as they see that official agencies like the FBI and CIA contributing to them, some will immediately dismiss the content as a cover-up.

However, the same can be said of some of the conspiracy theorists. A lot of times we simply don't know who put it together or who provided intel for it.

But, both sides are out there.

how come nobody ever attacks buddhism?

Probably because they're not a threat to anyone. Buddhists feel there's no difference between us and any other biodegradable organism out there.

Actually, I had post all pounded out that showed the differences each faith, that is Christianity and Islam, had within themselves. I was getting into Buddhism, but I decided to trashed it. Ran out of time.

Cheers.

[franko]

disgruntled70shab said:

how come nobody ever attacks buddhism?

Probably because they're not a threat to anyone.

Tell that to the Chinese government.

Buddhists feel there's no difference between us and any other biodegradable organism out there.

I would go so far as to say it is because there is not Buddhist "state", as compared to Islam leading the Arab states, and Christianity leading the western (or rather US) states.

Actually, I had post all pounded out that showed the differences each faith, that is Christianity and Islam, had within themselves. I was getting into Buddhism, but I decided to trashed it.

That's a lot of work for naught!

With so many Christian sects/beliefs, and more than one Islamic and Buddhist sect , though, I can see why you would just point us to our own libraries!

[Skilly]

franko said:

Skilly: when did you become some biblically aware?

I went to Bible study classes/camp for 2 or 3 summers in my youth. And I used to read the Bible alot. Can't criticize something if you dont delve into it .... plus there was that whole Bible study prior to confirmation .... "I believe in God the father almighty ....."

aside: Utopia comes from the Greek οὐ -τόπος, or "not-place"; in other words, an impossible ideal]

Another aside: Utopia can also be spelt Eutopia.

From Wikipedia:
The word comes from Greek: οὐ, "not", and τόπος, "place", indicating that More was utilizing the concept as allegory and did not consider such an ideal place to be realistically possible. It is worth noting that the homophone Eutopia, derived from the Greek εὖ, "good" or "well", and τόπος, "place", signifies a double meaning that was probably intended. Most modern usage of the term "Utopia" incorrectly assumes this latter meaning.

[Skilly]

habmeister said:

how come nobody ever attacks buddhism?

Tibet.

However, March 19th 2008 a Buddist village guard was shot to death by Islamic terrorists.

I found a site that lists all the Islamic terrorists in the last 2 months. From February 1st to April 1st there was 320 Islamic acts of terror listed. My question is "how come we aren't hearing about them all"

[Cranky]

franko said:

I – I – take this to mean that even those who do not as you put it “accept Jesus Christ as [their] saviour” (a nebulous and now-archaic term) will indeed be judged by their lives lived.

Oiiii, I'm taking the express elevator to hell......and then taking the staircase to reach rock bottom......