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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 20, 2009 10:09:01 GMT -5
As the big club circles the drain, I need to focus on the positive which, hopefully, is our emerging corps of young defensemen that will either help bridge us to a better future or provide trade bait to land a guy like Lecavalier.
Maybe NWT Fan can give us some additional color on these guys. Age is as of the beginning of camp for 2009/10.
1. David Fischer, 21, R (University of Minnesota)
Fischer just finished his 3rd season at Minnesota and has 118 college games under his belt, although he played only 31 games this year due to an injury. He's been slow to put it all together and when I saw him in the the NCAA playoffs last year you could see he has all the tools (skating, passing, puck handling, size) but lacks any assertiveness whatsoever. You wonder if the NHL game or even the AHL game may be too quick for him to process. He seemed to be putting it together this year before he got hurt but still not dominating. I wonder if he's even ready for Hamilton and will spend a 4th year at Minnesota. He kind of reminds me of Ron Hainsey, but even Hainsey was a dominant player in a great conference (Hockey East) when he was in college.
2. Ryan McDonagh, 20, L (University of Wisconsin).
Finished his 2nd year at Wisconsin and has 76 college games under his belt plus WJC experience. I didn't see him play so others would be in a better position to comment. Seems like a similar player to Fischer, plays a smoth skating and passing game, a bit smaller than Fischer, but has not really exploded offensively. It wasn't a great year for the Badgers. Is he ready to jump to Hamilton? It's clear that most dmen, especially from the US with fewer amateur games, need at least a year of seasoning in the AHL. McDonagh seems further along than Fischer.
3. PK Subban, 20, R (Belleville Bulls)
Has gotten tons of amateur games playing 234 junior games in 4 years plus playoffs and WJC experience. He played well on the big stage, he seems to have lots of confidence, I'm still not sure how he projects. Will definitely be in Hamilton next year. Seems a bit on the small side.
4. Yannick Weber, 20, R (Hamilton/MTL)
I like what I've seem from him. He looks confident and decisive with the puck on offense but at 5'10" and less than 200 lbs he can be pushed around. Needs to play a tougher, more fearless game. Could be a regular in Montreal next year.
5. Mathieu Carle, 21 (Hamilton)
Four years in junior, 2 years in Hamilton. Pretty much the inflection point for a player to either show he's NHL material or not. Was passed by Yannick Weber on getting called up to Montreal for the playoffs. Looks like a guy sliding backwards.
I guess Alexei Yemelin is notable but until he comes over to NA, you don't know what you have. Valentenko is back in Russia. You could add Ryan O'Byrne to the list - I love his size and aggresiveness, but I don't know if the game moves too fast for him.
Overall a decent list but nobody who can project yet to be a top 4 guy on the blueline. I'd like to see one of McDonagh or Fischer make the leap to Hamilton along with Subban so we can see who can thrive in that setting and give us more indication of future NHL success.
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Post by CrocRob on Apr 20, 2009 10:29:28 GMT -5
I like McDonagh and Carle, of them all. Carle's injury history is worrisome, but has actually been pretty productive in his AHL career. A Josh Gorges type, if he can stay healthy. McDonagh is just a fluid player, but not dominating at this stage.
Subban to me is a boom or bust kind of prospect, but one definitely worth hanging on to. He'll either be able to put up 50 points or he'll get 10. He has a great stride though and plays with jam, and with some luck he'll grow another inch or so which will help his transition to the pros.
I thought Fischer really took some big strides this season despite his injury in the limited viewings I had. He'll definitely be back in Minnesota for a fourth year, and his transition to a pro game will be interesting to watch. He's got the tools but perhaps, as you said, lacks the assertiveness to really make his tools count in the pros. I suspect he'll end up as a jack-of-all-trades defenseman in the bigs, probably a 2nd pairing guy if he pans out.
Honestly, if Carle doesn't get dealt I expect to see him in Montreal next season. I like Weber, but as yet unless he's going to produce on the PP I don't see the reason to have him if we have Schneider on the roster as he gets beaten regularly in the corners.
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Post by jkr on Apr 20, 2009 11:59:07 GMT -5
I've seen Subban play a lot ( does that sound like someone?  ) & I really like what I see. he appears quite dynamic & confident. He's got a lot of experience in tough situations with Belleville & Team Canada. I have seen him listed at 6 ft/200lb so I don't find his size too much of a problem. I think he is coming to camp in September with the mindset that he will play in Montreal. With the people on the blueline now, I wouldn't be too surprised if he makes it. |
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Post by Anardil1 on Apr 20, 2009 19:03:24 GMT -5
Here's my positive moment for the day. Please be seated everyone. Here it comes. If Subban develops, we just might have our very own version of MIKE GREEN! There, I said it.
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Post by jkr on Apr 20, 2009 20:40:42 GMT -5
Here's my positive moment for the day. Please be seated everyone. Here it comes. If Subban develops, we just might have our very own version of MIKE GREEN! There, I said it. I have seen this guy live & he is an exciting player. He plays like Green now at the junior level. Let's keep our fingers crossed. The state of the D in Montreal is so bad that he may actually have a shot at making the Habs next year. |
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Post by Lord Bebop on Apr 21, 2009 8:16:24 GMT -5
Here's my positive moment for the day. Please be seated everyone. Here it comes. If Subban develops, we just might have our very own version of MIKE GREEN! There, I said it. I think on the low end he developes into a player similar to Bryan McCabe. Joe Stejskal is another guy to keep an eye on. He has a big shot and throws big hits. He plays good minutes for Dartmouth including powerplay and penalty kill time. He did exploded offensively to start the year, scoring six goals and ten points in 12 games then cooled down so may just be a blip or perhaps he will turn into something of a offensive player down the road. Philippe Paquet is a guy I wouldn't of minded giving a contract to. Injuries have hampered the playing time for Paquet the past two seasons. He was a regular on the top PK unit for Clarkson where he uses his size and long reach to his advantage. Paquet doesn't mind the rough stuff and plays a stay at home type of game. The team will hold his rights until August 15th, 2009, so hopefully he will get a contract for next season. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 21, 2009 8:31:33 GMT -5
Here's my positive moment for the day. Please be seated everyone. Here it comes. If Subban develops, we just might have our very own version of MIKE GREEN! There, I said it. I will say he's played well enough at elite competitions that it's not that far fetched. Plus he brings an attitude to his game that would be welcome. You gotta be fearless to play D, especially if you're small. Subban will be gunning for a spot in Montreal in the fall. |
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Post by jkr on Apr 21, 2009 11:17:40 GMT -5
Here's my positive moment for the day. Please be seated everyone. Here it comes. If Subban develops, we just might have our very own version of MIKE GREEN! There, I said it. I will say he's played well enough at elite competitions that it's not that far fetched. Plus he brings an attitude to his game that would be welcome. You gotta be fearless to play D, especially if you're small. Subban will be gunning for a spot in Montreal in the fall. has him at 6ft/200lb. so he's not that small. |
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Post by clear observer on Apr 21, 2009 12:21:57 GMT -5
I will say he's played well enough at elite competitions that it's not that far fetched. Plus he brings an attitude to his game that would be welcome. You gotta be fearless to play D, especially if you're small. Subban will be gunning for a spot in Montreal in the fall. has him at 6ft/200lb. so he's not that small. He's absolutely, positively NOT 6ft/200lb...he's EXACTLY 5'10" and approx 185lb soaking wet. How do I know this? Well, I was having a few wobbly-pops with him at my club (Easter weekend I recognized him in my lineup and waved him through) and he was not centimeter taller than me (I'm 5' 10" on a good back day). He's a kid with some filling-out to do...what more can I say. Spectacular wheels and puck-composure...also an excellent passer with a heavy shot. |
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Post by franko on Apr 21, 2009 13:27:11 GMT -5
did you card him ;D?
[oops, just slid in I guess]
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Post by seventeen on Apr 21, 2009 22:18:44 GMT -5
He's absolutely, positively NOT 6ft/200lb...he's EXACTLY 5'10" and approx 185lb soaking wet. How do I know this? Well, I was having a few wobbly-pops with him at my club (Easter weekend I recognized him in my lineup and waved him through) and he was not centimeter taller than me (I'm 5' 10" on a good back day). He's a kid with some filling-out to do...what more can I say. That you forgot to mention you were wearing your heels at the time. |
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Post by Skilly on Apr 26, 2009 20:18:04 GMT -5
I dunno ...maybe it is just me, or maybe I am a contrarian. But all these young defensive prospects can not play in the NHL for the Habs at the same time.
Here I feel we once again are over-valuing these defense prospects we drafted and could find ourselves severely disappointed ....
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Post by CrocRob on Apr 26, 2009 20:38:24 GMT -5
Certainly they can't all be introduced in the same season. Next year we'll likely see one on the club from the get-go (Weber or Carle, Subban a dark horse), and perhaps another with spot injury duty (I'm thinking Subban here). Fischer is yet three seasons away from being a serious consideration, and McDonagh is at least two depending on whether he returns to Wisconsin.
So think about two rookies each three seasons (i.e. spot duty one year and a full-time spot the following one), and it doesn't take long to revamp the defense corps. Not all of these guys will make it as a Hab obviously, but I see no reason we we shouldn't think that three of them could be eventual Canadiens.
Weber and Carle are already very near NHL caliber (though only 1 of them I think will end up being a Hab).
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Post by Skilly on Apr 27, 2009 8:40:44 GMT -5
Certainly they can't all be introduced in the same season. Next year we'll likely see one on the club from the get-go (Weber or Carle, Subban a dark horse), and perhaps another with spot injury duty (I'm thinking Subban here). Fischer is yet three seasons away from being a serious consideration, and McDonagh is at least two depending on whether he returns to Wisconsin. So our first round can't miss defense won't be any use to us until they are 23-24? Another reason I would rather we shy away from the American NCAA players for awhile .... Fischer is 21 and three seasons away? This is the arguement I keep hearing and the arguement I keep rebutting. Prospects development is not linear. If they suck during the spot duty, they won't get the full time spot. Wasn't long ago most on here were saying all those forwards we had were going to get in the line-up with 2-3 seasons because of linear progression. Higgins, Balej, Plekanec, Kostitsyn, Mikus, Urquhart, Grabovski, Chipchura, ... the list goes on of these prospects that disappoint. Now some are pleased as punch with Higgins' development, ok, let's take him off the list, and I'll even admit the Latendresse and Lapierre picks look to be panning out.... and there is time, but we only used two of these players in trades and the rest their stock has plummeted.... wouldn't get a bag of pucks for them now. I don't want to see that happen with the defense prospects. We should know by now who can help the big club and who we should be using as trade bait to re-build. Let's not forget we have probably already lost one of our pospects for nothing - Valentenko. We have Fischer, McDonnagh, Weber, Stejskal, Torp, Kishel, Carle, Valentenko, Cepek, Paquet, Yemelin, Streit, Dulac-Lemelin, O'Byrne, Flood, Korpikari, Linhart, Korneev, Komisarek, Jarventie, Archer, Hainsey, Hanchuck, Glenn, Chvoja, and Gauthier since 2000 .... Only TWO have nailed down a roster spot (Komi and Streit). One is a maybe (O'Byrne). We have let THREE get away for nothing so far (Hainsey, Streit, and Valentenko). Of the remaining 23 players, SIX may make this team someday. That's good odds ... 25% of the guys drafted. BUT maybe , if that average maintains itself, only 25% of Fischer, McDonnagh, Weber, Carle, Yemelin, O'Byrne and I'll throw in Valentenko will make the team .... so that's 1.75 or let's say 2. We still can't score for the life of us, but we went and drafted 40% of all our draft picks in the past 9 drafts as defensemen .... passing up along the way some big names for these defensemen mind you ..... I guess I am just frustrated.... |
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Post by CrocRob on Apr 27, 2009 9:33:19 GMT -5
So our first round can't miss defense won't be any use to us until they are 23-24? Another reason I would rather we shy away from the American NCAA players for awhile .... Fischer is 21 and three seasons away? Well the counter argument is that this is the reason to draft NCAA players. If you draft from the CHL, you've either got a player under contract at 19 or you're getting them to play against children as an overager. At 22/23 they need to get re-signed (if they're good enough) and all the while they're taking up a spot on the 50-man contract roster. These NCAA guys aren't. They're developing away from the pressure of a professional atmosphere and at the same time they're learning to be people as well as hockey players. And not taking up space on the 50-man roster. We get 4 or 5 free seasons, as opposed to the 2 that come with CHL/European players. You can bring them earlier (like Pacioretty) or later (like Fischer) but introduce them to pro hockey when they're ready, not when you are forced to. This is the arguement I keep hearing and the arguement I keep rebutting. Prospects development is not linear. If they suck during the spot duty, they won't get the full time spot. Wasn't long ago most on here were saying all those forwards we had were going to get in the line-up with 2-3 seasons because of linear progression. Higgins, Balej, Plekanec, Kostitsyn, Mikus, Urquhart, Grabovski, Chipchura, ... the list goes on of these prospects that disappoint. Now some are pleased as punch with Higgins' development, ok, let's take him off the list, and I'll even admit the Latendresse and Lapierre picks look to be panning out.... and there is time, but we only used two of these players in trades and the rest their stock has plummeted.... wouldn't get a bag of pucks for them now. I don't want to see that happen with the defense prospects. We should know by now who can help the big club and who we should be using as trade bait to re-build. Let's not forget we have probably already lost one of our pospects for nothing - Valentenko. We have Fischer, McDonnagh, Weber, Stejskal, Torp, Kishel, Carle, Valentenko, Cepek, Paquet, Yemelin, Streit, Dulac-Lemelin, O'Byrne, Flood, Korpikari, Linhart, Korneev, Komisarek, Jarventie, Archer, Hainsey, Hanchuck, Glenn, Chvoja, and Gauthier since 2000 .... Only TWO have nailed down a roster spot (Komi and Streit). One is a maybe (O'Byrne). We have let THREE get away for nothing so far (Hainsey, Streit, and Valentenko). Of the remaining 23 players, SIX may make this team someday. That's good odds ... 25% of the guys drafted. BUT maybe , if that average maintains itself, only 25% of Fischer, McDonnagh, Weber, Carle, Yemelin, O'Byrne and I'll throw in Valentenko will make the team .... so that's 1.75 or let's say 2. We still can't score for the life of us, but we went and drafted 40% of all our draft picks in the past 9 drafts as defensemen .... passing up along the way some big names for these defensemen mind you ..... I guess I am just frustrated.... You're right. Prospect development isn't linear. But these guys are also all different ages. Weber is 20, Subban is 19, Fischer is 21. They're also all at different stages of development, some closer than others. If 3 of them make the team and can contribute in a significant way, I consider that a win. Aside from Fischer and McDonagh, we're talking about a bunch of 2nd round (and later) prospects. 2 would be a push and any fewer a loss in my books. If you step back from the statistics and projected draft success rates and actually watch these guys play (which I'm guessing you haven't much, since you're not H&C and probably don't have much access to the games) some of these guys are pretty impressive, and I think there's not that much reason to downplay these guys just because you think they'll average out. What should our ratio have been, by the way, if not 40%? It's always seemed to me they're trying to build from the net out, and are following that pattern. |
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Post by Skilly on Apr 27, 2009 12:17:55 GMT -5
So our first round can't miss defense won't be any use to us until they are 23-24? Another reason I would rather we shy away from the American NCAA players for awhile .... Fischer is 21 and three seasons away? Not entirely directed at you .... but I seem to recall alot of moaning and groaning on these boards about 24yr old rookies and lofty expectation after the hit 25 because they should be more mature. There was also the "we let them rot too long in the minors" debate .... What should our ratio be? How about one first round pick that actually pans out ... thats all I ask ... ONE ... where is he? Beuller, Bueller? From where I sit, it says here that, the last first round draft pick that lived up to his expectations was Saku Koivu in 1993. Since then .... Brad Brown, Terry Ryan, Matt Higgins, Jason Ward, Eric Chouinard, Ron Hainsey, Marcel Hossa, Mike Komisarek, Alexander Perezhogin, Chris Higgins, Andrei Kostitsyn, Kyle Chipchura ... and I'll give a "wait and see" to Price, Fischer and McDonnagh. But our track record is terrible when it comes to first rounders. Which is why I can not get too excited about bringing in Fischer and McDonnagh in 3 years or more .... |
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Post by franko on Apr 27, 2009 12:45:45 GMT -5
Since then .... Brad Brown, Terry Ryan, Matt Higgins, Jason Ward, Eric Chouinard, Ron Hainsey, Marcel Hossa, Mike Komisarek, Alexander Perezhogin, Chris Higgins, Andrei Kostitsyn, Kyle Chipchura |
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Post by CrocRob on Apr 27, 2009 12:47:56 GMT -5
I don't think there's a molded development cycle that works for every player, as they'll all learn at different pace through their careers. Pacioretty has quickly made the jump to pro and has looked promising thus far, while others have taken longer.
I agree, not great success the last 15 years though. Andrei Kostitsyn is the closest thing to panning out, but I wonder if some of these players were drafted to fill roles. Who knows.
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Post by Skilly on Apr 27, 2009 17:55:05 GMT -5
I agree, not great success the last 15 years though. Andrei Kostitsyn is the closest thing to panning out, but I wonder if some of these players were drafted to fill roles. Who knows. Yes, and thats a big part of my problem with the Habs drafting strategy. For some reason, they refuse to draft the best player available.... and decide we are going to build our team from the net out. Well, in theory that should work fine ... but in reality, NO ONE builds a team from the net out. They either have the offensive star or stud defenseman and then get a goalie. But one or two of the pieces are there before the goalie. Thats what bugged me about the Price selection to this very day. We still think we have to draft d-men and goalies in the first rounds and pass over bona-fide scoring stars to boot .... fill the role and stay in mediocrity. For once I'd like to get the star and build the team around him ..... who are we building this teram around? |
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) & I really like what I see. he appears quite dynamic & confident. He's got a lot of experience in tough situations with Belleville & Team Canada. I have seen him listed at 6 ft/200lb so I don't find his size too much of a problem. 
