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Post by CentreHice on Sept 5, 2009 14:02:41 GMT -5
Bryant's second call was to Navigator Ltd....a prestigious PR/communications firm that has recently had Brian Mulroney as a client.
If you can afford it, go with the best spin you can get, I guess.
I'm sure the defense's spin will be a drunken Sheppard (with at least a recent history of anger issues heightened by alcohol) attacked Bryant (a heretofore upstanding citizen). And so, Bryant drove away in self-defense. Considering that Sheppard hung on, it appeared Bryant had no choice but to make extreme efforts to dislodge Sheppard....in order to protect himself and his wife.
And without a breathalyzer from Bryant....it's pretty much open and shut, wouldn't you think...once the PR firm and defense do their diligence. Sheppard certainly can't give his side.
If Bryant's tale is true (and borne out from the video evidence...or lack thereof) I think I might have done the same thing had an enraged man come at me, especially if my wife was in the car with me.
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The opposite scenario is that Sheppard was angry that Bryant had hit his bike and didn't want to wait around for police. Sheppard was therefore reaching in to stop Bryant from leaving...i.e. to take his keys. Speculation being, of course, that Bryant didn't want police involved because he had been drinking as well. Again, Sheppard would be the only one who could give that testimony....unless there were passers-by who could corroborate that angle.
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Post by ValkyrieNS on Sept 5, 2009 18:29:16 GMT -5
Why was Bryant's window down in the first place? If you see an "enraged" person coming towards you, is not your first instinct to roll up/power up the window? And lock the doors, especially if you have power locks?
Obviously, we (general public) are not getting the whole story here, and as you've already said, we'll never get Sheppard's side of the story now...
A senseless loss of life, either way, IMHO.
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Post by CentreHice on Sept 5, 2009 23:25:20 GMT -5
Why was Bryant's window down in the first place? If you see an "enraged" person coming towards you, is not your first instinct to roll up/power up the window? And lock the doors, especially if you have power locks? Obviously, we (general public) are not getting the whole story here, and as you've already said, we'll never get Sheppard's side of the story now... A senseless loss of life, either way, IMHO. SAAB convertible with the top down. Would driver window up have made a difference? How much time was there to react? Just saying...... BTW....already spin that no alcohol was involved at the Bryant anniversary dinner. Bryant and Abramovitch, one of Canada's top entertainment lawyers, had been out celebrating the 12th anniversary of their wedding.
There was no reason to ask Bryant for a breathalyzer, says Burrows, and according to a Toronto Star story, there was no alcohol at their dinner. Toronto StarPaper being up front about PR firm Navigator here as well....i.e. at least they're not completely "behind the scenes". |
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Post by ValkyrieNS on Sept 6, 2009 20:47:41 GMT -5
SAAB convertible with the top down. Would driver window up have made a difference? How much time was there to react? Just saying...... No point in even having a window, in that case... Sorry, I forgot that convertibles even existed. I incorrectly assumed that Bryant was driving a *regular type* car. Now I assume that the city/police are doing/have done an autopsy on the bike driver. Any results forthcoming on toxicology tests or is it too early? |
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Post by BadCompany on Sept 7, 2009 8:46:18 GMT -5
Seems like a pretty open and shut case to me, with the fact that it involves a public person being the only reason for any sort of "controversy." Sheppard was known to have anger management issues, and alcohol problems. Less than an hour before the accident he had been sitting in the back of a police cruiser, forcibly evicted from his girlfriend's apartment. It's unclear who called the police, but obviously they felt Sheppard was a threat of some sort, which would seems to indicate he was angry, with gusts up to violent. He gets into a minor traffic accident, and seems to go beserk, slamming his bag down on the car and screaming at Bryant. Clearly Sheppard was having a bad day. Is it any stretch to think then that he completely lost it, perhaps threatening Sheppard, saying things like "I'm gonna kill you a**hole!!" ? I don't know what was said, but it seems rather plausible to me, given everything that had happened right up until that point. Could it be that we want Bryant to be guilty of something. Or as Judith Timson wrote in the Globe and Mail that " (b)eneath the facts of the Bryant case lies a bubbling cauldron of social resentments, mistrust of authority and other prejudices?" Interesting column: www.theglobeandmail.com/life/michael-bryant-the-story-none-of-us-can-stop-talking-about/article1274909/ |
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Post by CentreHice on Sept 7, 2009 12:51:19 GMT -5
That's the way I'm leaning, BC....as to the first spin I posted.
Sheppard was very likely primed for an altercation....and Bryant just happened along. If it had been a regular joe and not a former AG of Ontario at the wheel, the story would not be nearly as big.....even though it was quite a scene.
Have to wait and see if the video tells another tale.....without Sheppard to testify, the proceedings aren't going to be drawn out, IMO.
Some speculation that the police may be at some fault for allowing a drunken Sheppard to continue on his way after the domestic dispute. i.e. Why wasn't he driven home? A bike is a vehicle.
Do we have outlined self-defense laws in Canada?
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Post by franko on Sept 7, 2009 12:56:22 GMT -5
No but we have a lawyer named Greenspan
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Post by CentreHice on Sept 7, 2009 13:02:40 GMT -5
No but we have a lawyer named Greenspan And Bryant has hired his former partner...Marie Heinen. One of the best. |
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Post by MC Habber on Sept 7, 2009 13:31:02 GMT -5
Seems like a pretty open and shut case to me, with the fact that it involves a public person being the only reason for any sort of "controversy." Sheppard was known to have anger management issues, and alcohol problems. Less than an hour before the accident he had been sitting in the back of a police cruiser, forcibly evicted from his girlfriend's apartment. It's unclear who called the police, but obviously they felt Sheppard was a threat of some sort, which would seems to indicate he was angry, with gusts up to violent. This is likely true, but it seems to me you're assuming too much. There are other reasons why someone might call the police. It doesn't necessarily mean anyone thought he was a threat, and even if they did, we don't know they were of sound mind. Like I said, you're probably right, but I think that, in general, people shouldn't jump to conclusions just because the police were called and they "forcibly evicted" him. |
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Post by CrocRob on Sept 7, 2009 20:34:24 GMT -5
Sounds a lot to me like drunk guy on bike got killed for hanging onto the car. Video looks like it confirms as much.
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Post by CentreHice on Sept 7, 2009 21:41:47 GMT -5
Sounds a lot to me like drunk guy on bike got killed for hanging onto the car. Video looks like it confirms as much. Yes, that's what Sheppard did for his part. You've seen video clips that show the whole incident? Bryant will no doubt be found acting in self-defense. Survival mode....fearing for his and his wife's safety. Can't say as I wouldn't act in the same manner in a similar situation. And once you're in that panic mode of trying to dislodge someone from hanging onto your car, it doesn't end til he's off. Still, Sheppard isn't around to give his testimony as to why he reached into Bryant's car in the first place. And I doubt there's video and sound of the initial altercation. i.e. who hit who, and what was said. One can assume from prior events, that Sheppard was drunk and looking for trouble....and that may be enough to totally exonerate Bryant. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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Post by CrocRob on Sept 8, 2009 0:34:52 GMT -5
Short of Bryant holding on to Sheppard so he rode down the street with him, I don't really see how Bryant ends up with a criminal charge here relating to Sheppard's death.
Even if Bryant nicked Sheppard's bike with his car, that's hardly reason for Sheppard to hang on. Given how quick Bryant called the PR firm, it would seem out of character to do a hit and run. In the scenario, he could have bought Sheppard a new bike much cheaper than this or being racked up for Failure to Stop at Scene of Accident.
I've probably not seen video footage that anyone else has, just that of Sheppard and Bryant going past the construction together.
I don't really buy that Bryant was in panic mode, given how quickly he called a PR firm. But I can't say that I would stop the car in a similar circumstance even while perfectly lucid. At least his hands are tied up if the car is moving.
I'm just not shedding tears for the reportedly drunk and belligerant man who effectively got himself killed in the only way this story's events logically unfold (through my eyes).
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Sept 8, 2009 1:07:41 GMT -5
Michael Bryant is totally innocent, just like his brother Kobe was.
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Post by CentreHice on Sept 8, 2009 7:13:53 GMT -5
I think most people would be in panic/survival mode....considering the actions of the car in dislodging Sheppard......unless Sheppard took hold of the wheel and was pulling it to the left, causing the lane changes, and ultimately his own demise. After hitting the tree and mailbox, he fell under the rear wheels and Bryant continued over him. Not saying Bryant knew he was under the car....but all you'd want to do is get away from that guy. And that's why I cite panic/survival.
Bryant alerted police to his location around the corner....and he didn't call the PR firm until he was being questioned by police. His wife is a lawyer as well. Between the two of them, after several minutes of calming down, they'd know who to call.
I think Bryant acted in self-defense. I don't know what case the prosecution can build against him, seeing as Sheppard isn't around. Unless they get crystal clear video of the entire incident proving otherwise, or credible eyewitnesses of the initial altercation saying that Bryant hit the bike and refused to stay around for police, Bryant will be exonerated. There's no other option.
And perhaps (most likely) rightly so.
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Post by Skilly on Sept 8, 2009 10:04:49 GMT -5
I think Bryant acted in self-defense. I don't know what case the prosecution can build against him, seeing as Sheppard isn't around. Unless they get crystal clear video of the entire incident proving otherwise, or credible eyewitnesses of the initial altercation saying that Bryant hit the bike and refused to stay around for police, Bryant will be exonerated. There's no other option. And perhaps (most likely) rightly so. I know nothing of this case ... this is the first I've heard of it, but going on my limited legal background. The fact that Sheppard was drunk, and/or Bryant hit his bike would have nothing to do with his defense. Nothing. In Canada, we have the right to self-defense and defense of one's property. The criminal code says we can only exert force that a reasonable person would use to remove themselves from harm's way. If someone uses too much force, then yes, (s)he can be charged. Is it reasonable for someone to want to remove themselves from the presence of someone yelling at them? (going on the heresay I am reading here , again, I don't know if there was yelling or not ...) Of course. Even if you hit someone, and they come out screaming at you, you have no duty to stay, you do have a duty to report it though. Is it reasonable, when trying to remove yourself from a potentially dangerous situation, to be afraid if someone jumps on your car and hangs on? Yes. And you'd be mmore than justified in thinking that someone who does such a thing "ain't all there". If he is screaming things that BC suggests, or pounding on your vehicle, then fear for one's life is more than reasonable. A reasonable person, questions why a person is leaving and jots down the license plate number, and looks for witnesses ... not jump onto moving vehicles. So once this loon is on the vehicle. And assuming, Bryant, did slow to give the guy a chance to remove himself safely .... (but that would depend on Sheppard's actions, was he willingly to get off, did he actually act as if he was going to get off and not be violent?), then Bryant was well justified in doing whatever necessary to remove himself from a potentially life threatening situation. Now of course, once Sheppard fell off the vehicle, Bryant had a duty to call police (which he did) and not leave the scene if Sheppard was seriously hurt ... because if he was, a reasonable person should not fear for his life from a dead person, a person with broken legs, knocked out ... etc ... |
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Post by habernac on Sept 8, 2009 16:05:07 GMT -5
this one is an interesting case to me as I'm a person who rides to and from work every day. Unless Sheppard was brandishing some sort of weapon, Bryant's actions were dangerous and over the top. Killing a man for hanging onto your car? Talk about excessive.
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Post by CentreHice on Sept 8, 2009 19:04:27 GMT -5
The thing is, habernac, you never know what a person's intentions are once he reaches into your car.
Especially with the reports of Sheppard being drunk and belligerent.
Even if Bryant had wanted to drive away, a reasonable person (as posted earlier in this thread) would've written down/memorized the license plate and phoned it into police...IF the driver had been at fault.
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Post by Skilly on Sept 8, 2009 20:26:59 GMT -5
this one is an interesting case to me as I'm a person who rides to and from work every day. Unless Sheppard was brandishing some sort of weapon, Bryant's actions were dangerous and over the top. Killing a man for hanging onto your car? Talk about excessive. Can I ask how you would get someone off your car if they jumped on? If you stay and he breaks your window, slash your tires, whatever ... at what point would you say "I should get the heck out of here"? I'm only going on the hearsay reported in this thread, but if someone comes up to me yelling and waving their arms, looking violent ... I try to remove myself from the situation. If I get in my car to protect myself and he jumps on my car .. yeah, I may piss myself, and who knows, maybe move my car to scare him off ... and if he is yelling threats (which may not be able to be proven) I may very well give the car a little gas to shake him off violently ... is that reasonable? IMO, just as reasonable as someone jumping on my car and yelling at me. |
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Post by habernac on Sept 8, 2009 22:46:58 GMT -5
I'd already be phoning 911. And I'd hit the guy to get him off the car. You want to give the car a little gas? Fine. Driving recklessly down the wrong side of a street trying to bash the guy into a lightpost isn't giving the car a little gas.
He used unnecessary lethal force. I just hope the fact that he's a former attorney general doesn't get the guy off lightly.
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Post by MC Habber on Sept 9, 2009 1:17:21 GMT -5
But for all Bryant knew, the guy had a weapon or a needle, and as soon as he slowed down he would have used it.
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Post by CrocRob on Sept 9, 2009 2:19:22 GMT -5
I'd already be phoning 911. And I'd hit the guy to get him off the car. You want to give the car a little gas? Fine. Driving recklessly down the wrong side of a street trying to bash the guy into a lightpost isn't giving the car a little gas. He used unnecessary lethal force. I just hope the fact that he's a former attorney general doesn't get the guy off lightly. Quite honestly, what amount of force is allowed? Can he swerve to try to detach the biker? Can he hit the biker to get him detached from the car? Can he come to an abrupt stop in an attempt to detach the biker? I apologize to you as a biker, but if you're latched on to my car you're coming off one way or another if I discern any threat from you being there. That there's a biker latched on to my car is an implicit threat to my (and my fictional wife's) safety. It's interesting that in three separate newspaper articles the recount is that Sheppard collided with Bryant's car to precipitate the altercation. That's the wording, not the opposite. I wonder if that's witness-backed (though most of the recount in the Sun, Star and National Post seems to be) or not. |
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Post by franko on Sept 9, 2009 6:04:48 GMT -5
He used unnecessary lethal force. Define "unnecessary". And realize, of course, that your definition and my definition will probably not match. And realize that he will say that he did not use [or intend to use] lethal force -- it was an unfortunate happenstance. And that self-preservation and adrenaline took over. [I'm sure there's more, too]. I agree with you. At the same time, I just hope the fact that he's a former attorney general doesn't get the guy into more trouble just because of his former political position -- I think the case is under more scrutiny because of it. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Sept 9, 2009 8:48:21 GMT -5
Seems like a pretty open and shut case to me, with the fact that it involves a public person being the only reason for any sort of "controversy." I think if this had happened to "John Q Canadian" there might not be as much publicity on this for sure. It's hard to know if we're privy to the actual goings-on, or if we're being fed an editor's perception of the events. The fact we have a high-profile personality involved does change things, IMO. If it had been you or me most media outlets wouldn't give it the same kind of coverage they would for a high-profile person. I mean, where's the story in that? It's one thing to be buried on page 5 or 6 whereas Bryant made frontpage (at least for the first few days I think, not sure after that). I also feel that very hard for us to look at it from someone else's shoes. None of us knows how we're going to react to a situation like this (or any other situation for that matter) until we've been put into the same scenario under the same circumstances and provacations. I refer to Red's post when he went through different scenarios. Honestly, I think I know how I'd probably react if a cyclist, either reeking of booze or sober were to grab onto my car. Something like this has never happened to me so I'd probably be using words a lot stronger than "a**hole". I don't know what I'd do next because I don't know what would have happened after that. There are just too many combinations of 'what-if's'. But, it is reasonable to assume the story will differ slightly with just about everyone who saw it happen. Many different people with many different perceptions. Having said that, it's really hard to know if we've been privy to the actual story. IMO, Bryant is already behind the 8-ball. The press will soak this for as many papers as they can sell and they'll use the perceptions that will best facilitate that process. Cheers. |
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Post by habernac on Sept 9, 2009 12:55:04 GMT -5
I'd already be phoning 911. And I'd hit the guy to get him off the car. You want to give the car a little gas? Fine. Driving recklessly down the wrong side of a street trying to bash the guy into a lightpost isn't giving the car a little gas. He used unnecessary lethal force. I just hope the fact that he's a former attorney general doesn't get the guy off lightly. Quite honestly, what amount of force is allowed? Can he swerve to try to detach the biker? Can he hit the biker to get him detached from the car? Can he come to an abrupt stop in an attempt to detach the biker? I apologize to you as a biker, but if you're latched on to my car you're coming off one way or another if I discern any threat from you being there. That there's a biker latched on to my car is an implicit threat to my (and my fictional wife's) safety. It's interesting that in three separate newspaper articles the recount is that Sheppard collided with Bryant's car to precipitate the altercation. That's the wording, not the opposite. I wonder if that's witness-backed (though most of the recount in the Sun, Star and National Post seems to be) or not. no need to apologize to me as a cyclist, red. Smart riders don't hang onto anyone's vehicle. I just don't agree that Bryant's actions were justified. Extreme road rage from both parties on this one. |
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