|
|
Post by MC Habber on Nov 19, 2009 1:43:13 GMT -5
All Afghan detainees likely tortured: diplomatAll detainees transferred by Canadians to Afghan prisons were likely tortured by Afghan officials and many of the prisoners were innocent, says a former senior diplomat with Canada's mission in Afghanistan.
[...]
"As I learned more about our detainee practices, I came to a conclusion they were contrary to Canada's values, contrary to Canada's interests, contrary to Canada's official policies and also contrary to international law. That is, they were un-Canadian, counterproductive and probably illegal.
"According to our information, the likelihood is that all the Afghans we handed over were tortured. For interrogators in Kandahar, it was a standard operating procedure," Colvin said.
He said the most common forms of torture were beatings, whipping with power cables, the use of electricity, knives, open flames and rape.Not at all surprising, but still pretty disturbing. EDIT: Forgot to include the link.
|
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 19, 2009 8:27:16 GMT -5
I'm hoping there's more to the story. Right now it's similar to the Somolia inquiry but I'd like to hear more. What sources is the diplomat citing? DND members and/or Aghan nationals? Afghan prisoners, former prisoners?
I remember initial reports in other stories that ended up not reflecting the actual story once all of the cards were put on the table. The Canadian sniper story was a classic in this context. The snipers were reported to have desecrated the bodies of the Taliban soldiers they killed. Even though Bush Jr described their performance as "brilliant" the allegations destroyed their reputations both with the Canadian public and with their peers right in the camp. The snipers were exonerated after an extensive investigation after which they were awarded their Bronze Stars. Still didn't stop some of the snipers from voluntarily getting out of the service afterwards.
If there are wrongs here, then fine, let's correct them. However, I don't know if we've heard the whole scoop as yet. Hopefully it doesn't turn into another Somolia inquiry.
Cheers.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Nov 19, 2009 11:49:46 GMT -5
I'm going to take a wait-and-see attitude. Often, these things are politically motivated disguised as "innocent concerns". Re "spontaneous outburst" in the gallery of Parliament that turned out to be an orchestrated by the NDP.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Nov 19, 2009 11:54:52 GMT -5
I'm hoping there's more to the story. Right now it's similar to the Somolia inquiry but I'd like to hear more. What sources is the diplomat citing? DND members and/or Aghan nationals? Afghan prisoners, former prisoners? Let's start with some unquestionable proof (like photos) BEFORE the witch hunt. He said, I heard, they may, could be, probably, likely and assorted allegations is NOT proof. |
|
|
|
Post by MC Habber on Nov 19, 2009 12:23:23 GMT -5
Well, we know lots of detainees were handed over, nobody's denying that. To believe that they were all guilty of something seems a little naive to me. To believe that most of them weren't tortured seems even more so.
|
|
|
|
Post by franko on Nov 19, 2009 14:34:32 GMT -5
To believe that every one of them was tortured also, I think.
Some? Probably.
|
|
|
|
Post by duster on Nov 19, 2009 15:36:34 GMT -5
Is the alternative to detain and/or try them here in Canada? Are they considered POWs? Which legal system has jurisdiction in Afghanistan?
|
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 19, 2009 15:51:05 GMT -5
I did a quick surf just a little while ago and I couldn't find what I was looking for.
However, some of the guys here at work remember this as well. This isn't anything new actually. I remember reading (MacLean's maybe) about Taliban fighters being turned over to the Afghan National Police (ANP) only to see them released sometimes in the same day. Something to do with Afghan customs, but it frustrated the troops to no end.
Now that was in the early stages of the conflict. I honestly don't know what the policy is nowadays.
Cheers.
|
|
|
|
Post by MC Habber on Nov 20, 2009 0:43:40 GMT -5
To believe that every one of them was tortured also, I think. I honestly don't see why, but so what if it wasn't all of them? |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Nov 20, 2009 1:32:35 GMT -5
Is the alternative to detain and/or try them here in Canada? Are they considered POWs? Which legal system has jurisdiction in Afghanistan? We are fighting on behalf of the Afghani people and our mission is not one of occupiers nor making Afghanistan into a Canadian province. The Afghani people have judicial jurisdiction, not us. |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Nov 20, 2009 1:37:21 GMT -5
I did a quick surf just a little while ago and I couldn't find what I was looking for. However, some of the guys here at work remember this as well. This isn't anything new actually. I remember reading (MacLean's maybe) about Taliban fighters being turned over to the Afghan National Police (ANP) only to see them released sometimes in the same day. Something to do with Afghan customs, but it frustrated the troops to no end. Now that was in the early stages of the conflict. I honestly don't know what the policy is nowadays. Cheers. As far as I know, we always turn over our prisoners to Afgani authorities. In 2007, we started to demand that the Red Cross have records and keep an eye on them. |
|
|
|
Post by MC Habber on Nov 20, 2009 5:27:34 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but I recall reading that international law does not permit us to turn over our detainees without taking reasonable measures to ensure they are not mistreated.
--
[Peter] MacKay painted Colvin as having been duped by the Taliban and said Canadians are being asked to accept the word of prisoners "who throw acid in the face of schoolgirls." MacKay also said he did not know about Colvin's allegations.
However, Ottawa University law professor Amir Attaran said the onus was on MacKay to explain how he could not have known about Colvin's reports.
"The reality is that Mr. Colvin wrote 17 reports that he sent to colleagues in Ottawa. He cc's more than 70 people on those reports," Attaran said.
If Mr. Colvin was lying in those reports, "don't you think one of them would be standing up?"
This claim by MacKay is pretty low, unless he is prepared to provide proof that all the people Colvin talked to "throw acid in the face of schoolgirls." It's stereotyping a whole country, and relying on stereotypes that paint Muslims as extremists and terrorists who are totally immoral. It's borderline racism.
--
The most disturbing thing about all this, aside from what may have actually happened and what the government knew, did, and is now doing about it, is the number of people who think this is (or would be) OK. Witness some of the comments on the CBC website.
|
|
|
|
Post by MC Habber on Nov 20, 2009 5:29:49 GMT -5
Is the alternative to detain and/or try them here in Canada? Are they considered POWs? Which legal system has jurisdiction in Afghanistan? For at least the "low-value" (i.e. often probably innocent) detainees, the alternative is to simply release them. |
|
|
|
Post by MC Habber on Nov 20, 2009 5:32:01 GMT -5
To believe that every one of them was tortured also, I think. Some? Probably. Remember the Sanford Prison Experiment? It's human nature. The only way that most of the prisoners might not have been tortured is if there were an effective system in place to regulate the prison guards. Is there one? |
|
|
|
Post by franko on Nov 20, 2009 6:50:26 GMT -5
To believe that every one of them was tortured also, I think. I honestly don't see why, but so what if it wasn't all of them? I'm just referring to the claim: " all of the prisoners were tortured". If he had said "I have information that there was torture and that ______ knew about it" people would have said "that's wrong -- what happened?". Instead the response is "more exaggeration" and it will quickly pass through the news. Not making a statement defending anyone who may have been involved or denying that it [probably] happened, just making a statement. |
|
|
|
Post by franko on Nov 20, 2009 6:52:49 GMT -5
To believe that every one of them was tortured also, I think. Some? Probably. Remember the Sanford Prison Experiment? It's human nature. The only way that most of the prisoners might not have been tortured is if there were an effective system in place to regulate the prison guards. Is there one? Don't know. This, as everything, is a matter not so much of caring about Afghani prisoners but is a matter of making political hay. Unfortunately. |
|
|
|
Post by franko on Nov 20, 2009 6:57:55 GMT -5
It's stereotyping a whole country, and relying on stereotypes that paint Muslims as extremists and terrorists who are totally immoral. It's borderline racism. Since when has politics done anything that isn't borderline? Though actually MacKay was talking about the Taliban/extremists, not about Muslims in general. I'll have to do that. |
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 20, 2009 9:08:39 GMT -5
I did a quick surf just a little while ago and I couldn't find what I was looking for. However, some of the guys here at work remember this as well. This isn't anything new actually. I remember reading (MacLean's maybe) about Taliban fighters being turned over to the Afghan National Police (ANP) only to see them released sometimes in the same day. Something to do with Afghan customs, but it frustrated the troops to no end. Now that was in the early stages of the conflict. I honestly don't know what the policy is nowadays. Cheers. As far as I know, we always turn over our prisoners to Afgani authorities. In 2007, we started to demand that the Red Cross have records and keep an eye on them. Knowing this I have to ask what the diplomat's end goal is. What does he see as the outcome? Is he acting sincerely because he feels he can make a difference, or has he failed to do his homework beforehand and sees an opportunity for ... ? I hate bringing that up, but we've seen it far too often at all levels of politics. And on another tangent, are we being subjected to half-stories, or what the press only wants us to read so as to sell the news? Wouldn't be the first time for that either. I have the opportunity to talk with some of our finest pretty much on a daily basis. It's stuff like this that just causes them to shake their heads. For the record, thanks troops! Sincerely. |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Nov 20, 2009 12:11:24 GMT -5
And on another tangent, are we being subjected to half-stories, or what the press only wants us to read so as to sell the news? Wouldn't be the first time for that either. . It wouldn't be the first time or the last time. The media are jumping all over this but none of them are asking the basic questions. Where is the proof? Where does our authority end with the Afghani judicial system? Responsibility? |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Nov 20, 2009 12:49:30 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but I recall reading that international law does not permit us to turn over our detainees without taking reasonable measures to ensure they are not mistreated. -- [Peter] MacKay painted Colvin as having been duped by the Taliban and said Canadians are being asked to accept the word of prisoners "who throw acid in the face of schoolgirls." MacKay also said he did not know about Colvin's allegations.
However, Ottawa University law professor Amir Attaran said the onus was on MacKay to explain how he could not have known about Colvin's reports.
"The reality is that Mr. Colvin wrote 17 reports that he sent to colleagues in Ottawa. He cc's more than 70 people on those reports," Attaran said.
If Mr. Colvin was lying in those reports, "don't you think one of them would be standing up?"This claim by MacKay is pretty low, unless he is prepared to provide proof that all the people Colvin talked to "throw acid in the face of schoolgirls." It's stereotyping a whole country, and relying on stereotypes that paint Muslims as extremists and terrorists who are totally immoral. It's borderline racism.. Bordeline racism? Talking about pretty low claims.... I clearly read "the word of prisoners" and "Taliban". Nowhere does he mention Afghani people or Muslims. |
|
|
|
Post by MC Habber on Nov 21, 2009 15:10:06 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but I recall reading that international law does not permit us to turn over our detainees without taking reasonable measures to ensure they are not mistreated. -- [Peter] MacKay painted Colvin as having been duped by the Taliban and said Canadians are being asked to accept the word of prisoners "who throw acid in the face of schoolgirls." MacKay also said he did not know about Colvin's allegations.
However, Ottawa University law professor Amir Attaran said the onus was on MacKay to explain how he could not have known about Colvin's reports.
"The reality is that Mr. Colvin wrote 17 reports that he sent to colleagues in Ottawa. He cc's more than 70 people on those reports," Attaran said.
If Mr. Colvin was lying in those reports, "don't you think one of them would be standing up?"This claim by MacKay is pretty low, unless he is prepared to provide proof that all the people Colvin talked to "throw acid in the face of schoolgirls." It's stereotyping a whole country, and relying on stereotypes that paint Muslims as extremists and terrorists who are totally immoral. It's borderline racism.. Bordeline racism? Talking about pretty low claims.... I clearly read "the word of prisoners" and "Taliban". Nowhere does he mention Afghani people or Muslims. If someone accused you of being a terrorist, and you defended yourself, and they responded with, "You can't believe him, he throws acid on schoolgirls," most people wouldn't go for it because of the circular logic. But for some reason when Mackay does the same thing, it's seen as a legitimate argument. |
|
|
|
Post by MC Habber on Nov 21, 2009 15:17:36 GMT -5
I honestly don't see why, but so what if it wasn't all of them? I'm just referring to the claim: " all of the prisoners were tortured". If he had said "I have information that there was torture and that ______ knew about it" people would have said "that's wrong -- what happened?". Instead the response is "more exaggeration" and it will quickly pass through the news. Not making a statement defending anyone who may have been involved or denying that it [probably] happened, just making a statement. What leads you to think it's exaggeration? |
|
|
|
Post by MC Habber on Nov 21, 2009 15:19:12 GMT -5
Remember the Sanford Prison Experiment? It's human nature. The only way that most of the prisoners might not have been tortured is if there were an effective system in place to regulate the prison guards. Is there one? Don't know. This, as everything, is a matter not so much of caring about Afghani prisoners but is a matter of making political hay. Unfortunately. No. People will use it for their own purposes, no doubt, but that doesn't there aren't people who care, or even that Colvin has any ulterior motive (though he might). |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Nov 21, 2009 16:18:41 GMT -5
Bordeline racism? Talking about pretty low claims.... I clearly read "the word of prisoners" and "Taliban". Nowhere does he mention Afghani people or Muslims. If someone accused you of being a terrorist, and you defended yourself, and they responded with, "You can't believe him, he throws acid on schoolgirls," most people wouldn't go for it because of the circular logic. But for some reason when Mackay does the same thing, it's seen as a legitimate argument. First you accuse people of racism where the is clearly NO implications of it. Then you justify the accusation by playing down the severity, circumstance and danger of the people that were arrested/captured. The people that were captured/arrested were either in the field of battle or found with weapons/explosives. They weren't jay walking their goats. These guys are Taliban. Lest you forgotten, the same guys who mutilate womans genitals, stone them, burn them, burn down schools, harbor mass murdering terrorist, cut off head, plant IED's, kill anyone who is not their second cousin and on and on. A few reminder videos... www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6-5BqBkIMAnd this.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXCDOA-NL_U&NR=1And this.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=24LNQfIxbXIAnd this.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6vMT7WGBAMI can post hundreds more. How many do you want to see? |
|
|
|
Post by franko on Nov 22, 2009 17:29:56 GMT -5
Hey, MC, I don't doubt that many may have been tortured . . . and that perhaps some were actually innocent . . . though we just don't know.
I dodn't say that it was exaggeration . . . just that becusae of the word "all' some may bfeel that it is. We have proof that all were tortured and here it is . . . is different than this is my conclusion [which, again, may be right or it may be wrong].
And I was in no way suggesting that people don't care [obviously you do], just that it is an opportunity to play politics first and show compassion second.
|
|
|
|
Post by MC Habber on Nov 22, 2009 21:49:28 GMT -5
OTTAWA — Canada’s top military officer said Sunday that on more than one occasion, Canada did not turn over Afghan prisoners to the Afghan government, fearing for their safety. The acknowledgment by the officer, Gen. Walter Natynczyk, the chief of the defense staff, appeared inconsistent with Canada’s assertions that such prisoners had not been tortured.
[...]
Until Sunday, the government had only acknowledged stopping the transfers because of torture concerns once in November 2007. General Natynczyk said transfers had been stopped “more than one time,” but did not offer any details.
Mr. MacKay, who spoke at the same international security conference in Halifax as General Natynczyk, did not back away from his earlier position. “Not a single Taliban prisoner turned over by Canadian forces can be proven to have been abused,” he told reporters. “That is the crux of the issue.”
www.nytimes.com/2009/11/23/world/americas/23canada.htmlYeah, I imagine it would be hard to prove, now. As long as they can't prove it we can all pretend it didn't happen. I bet it would be easier to find proof of the cover up that Colvin is alleging happened, but the government, shockingly, is resisting calls for an investigation.
|
|
|
|
Post by MC Habber on Nov 22, 2009 21:58:39 GMT -5
In the field of battle? Well, they obviously shouldn't have been there then. It's not as though there aren't signs and fences up separating the "field of battle" from the rest of the country. I mean, it's not as if "the field of battle" surrounds people's homes or anything like that.
|
|
|
|
Post by MC Habber on Nov 22, 2009 22:10:30 GMT -5
Interesting comments about Correctional Service of Canada mentors from an Afghan prison warden. He also claims only about 1 in 11 prisoners were tortured.
|
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 23, 2009 7:11:15 GMT -5
Interesting comments about Correctional Service of Canada mentors from an Afghan prison warden. He also claims only about 1 in 11 prisoners were tortured. It's not a bad link MCH, thanks. Sending over CSC guards to mentor their Afghan counterparts is good to hear. Doesn't surprise me though. I pretty sure Canada has even sent RCMP officers over to train local police, but I'll have to verify my information. But what impresses me is that, Canada has gone the extra mile by helping build up the facility and provided additional training to Afghan guards as to how to handle juveniles and women prisoners. I still don't think we're hearing the whole story on this either. I really want to know if this diplomat is on the up and up. Is he doing this for the right reasons or is it just an opportunity? Cheers. |
|
|
|
Post by Polarice on Nov 23, 2009 7:35:04 GMT -5
Meh, I see nothing wrong with using torture when it comes to war and protecting our troops against any form of attack.
I know, I would have no problem using nay means necessary to get the information needed to protect my friends. Pretend that those troops dieing over there are your children, then tell me you wouldn't use whatever is necessary to protect them.
|
|
