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Post by jkr on Jan 31, 2010 14:42:46 GMT -5
Dumping Blake in that Toskala/Giguere trade makes it more agreeable. Without Stajan, Hagman, and now Blake that forward group just got a lot weaker... and that's saying something. I think the Phaneuf deal can turn out really well for Toronto, depending on where he goes. When the guy was at his best, he wasn't matched up against the top lines of other teams though, but he has the tools to get back to where he was 3 years ago. Maybe the toolbox will finally develop and he can be dominant at both ends of the rink and in the physical department... he's basically got 2 out of 3 right now. not sure what you mean - 2 out of 3? In any case, I think a 6.5 million cap hit for the next 4 years is too much for Phaneuf. |
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Post by roke on Jan 31, 2010 14:44:36 GMT -5
Dumping Blake in that Toskala/Giguere trade makes it more agreeable. Without Stajan, Hagman, and now Blake that forward group just got a lot weaker... and that's saying something. I think the Phaneuf deal can turn out really well for Toronto, depending on where he goes. When the guy was at his best, he wasn't matched up against the top lines of other teams though, but he has the tools to get back to where he was 3 years ago. Maybe the toolbox will finally develop and he can be dominant at both ends of the rink and in the physical department... he's basically got 2 out of 3 right now. not sure what you mean - 2 out of 3? In any case, I think a 6.5 million cap hit for the next 4 years is too much for Phaneuf. He has the physical game, he has the offensive game, but he still needs to improve defensively. Sorry about not being clear. |
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Post by halihab on Jan 31, 2010 15:12:04 GMT -5
From reports I have been hearing, I think Calgary wanted Phaneuf out of the dressing room. I actaully think Calgary got a whole lot better. Stajan and Hagman are good players and White will be good on the PP. Mayers adds more toughness to their line-up.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 31, 2010 15:32:38 GMT -5
Kessel just lost his set-up man...Stajan....and Hagman was at least scoring key goals for the Leafs this year....he's small, but he's a sniper.
They certainly didn't get better up front...and without goals, how are you going to get out of lottery territory?
Looking more like a goon-squad every day.
Phaneuf with his borderline (and often full on) dirty hits (and he'll be encouraged to do so big-time)...Komisarek with his crosscheck punches from behind a la Gary Roberts....Orr, Rosehill, Exelby...
I mean, I'm all for grit....but not full out dirt. You should've seen Rosehill charge and jump at a Canuck and miss last night, just before the Hordichuk-Orr fight.
My current hatred of the Leafs has returned to loathing....this will be like the Domi-Tucker-Roberts days....bah!
Call em ref....call em.
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Post by Marvin on Jan 31, 2010 16:14:47 GMT -5
As much as I can't stand the guy, I have to hand it to Burke for making bold trades. No one ever said that he'd rebuild the Leafs right away, but there was no doubt in my mind that once he got a feel for the team, he'd rebuild it to his liking. He's given up a lot of offense, and I'm sure that 1st Round Draft loss will come back to haunt him, but when the day is done, he remains an aggressive GM. In the long run, assuming Phaneuf gets his game back, the Leafs win this trade big-time.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 31, 2010 16:25:04 GMT -5
I just can't see two Sutters giving up on a stud d-man if they thought he could get his game back.
Was he a problem in the room? If so...good...that's just what Toronto needs.
Even though Phaneuf is only 24....he's going to be under tremendous pressure to perform NOW. He thought his defensive errors were talked about in Calgary.
Toronto is a lot like Montreal in that respect.
Going over to see what Calgary fans are saying....
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jan 31, 2010 16:31:16 GMT -5
Sounds like Burke is fed up being in 28th place and is starting a run for 27th.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 31, 2010 16:52:14 GMT -5
Flames' fans all over the map on this one. Wonder what kind of smoke McGuire is going to blow up Leafs' fans behinds now. The Big 4 just became the Big 5, no doubt.  Many Flames' fans saying that Phaneuf is over-rated because of his hits and his hard shot...because his poor positioning mitigates those assets. Like Souray (with the hard shot) and Komisarek (without the hard shot) in that regard. At least Burke is trying to do something. Wonder what gems Gainey has up his sleeve........ |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 31, 2010 16:58:52 GMT -5
Burke is playing it classic: from the net out. He's got a sleeping superstar goalie in Giguere and the a sleeping supertar dmen in Phaneuf. If he wakes them both, TO is a scary team.
Burke knows Beauchemin and he knows what he can do to Phaneuf.
I like both deals from a Toronto angle.
...and Burke still has an ace in his sleeve with Kaberle. IMO he will pick up an interesting young forward with him.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 31, 2010 17:08:53 GMT -5
Giguere is 32..resurrect a hot goalie at that age? He's been Hiller's backup since last year's playoffs.
But Burke knows him well. Giguere could have a few good years left...and can mentor Gustavsson, should the Leafs keep both next year.
Yep....Burke's not sitting idle, that's for sure.
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Post by jkr on Jan 31, 2010 17:16:59 GMT -5
Burke is playing it classic: from the net out. He's got a sleeping superstar goalie in Giguere and the a sleeping supertar dmen in Phaneuf. If he wakes them both, TO is a scary team. Burke knows Beauchemin and he knows what he can do to Phaneuf. I like both deals from a Toronto angle. ...and Burke still has an ace in his sleeve with Kaberle. IMO he will pick up an interesting young forward with him. Don't agree with you on Giguere. He's lost his place to Hiller over almost two seasons now. The Ducks went with Hiller in the playoffs last year - that says it all to me. Giguere is almost 33 and carries a 6 million dollar cap hit into next season. I doubt he will stay in Toronto after that is done unless Gustavson falls on his face. Phaneuf is another story. His game has plateaued but his salary has escalated. He may get that back but I don't think he will be worth a 6.5 million cap hit for the next 4 years. Going into next year Toronto has about 1/3 of the cap (assuming it will be around 56-58 million) tied up in 3 players - Kessel, Phaneuf & Giguere. |
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Post by jkr on Jan 31, 2010 17:19:10 GMT -5
Flames' fans all over the map on this one. I saw that too. I don't think they were upset about trading Phaneuf. My feeling is that Flames fans think they could have got more for him. |
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Post by mississaugaslasher on Jan 31, 2010 17:22:12 GMT -5
Giguere is an improvement over Toskala for sure. I think he plays pretty good under pressue from what I remember, so he might work out fine...and the leafs dumping Blake's salary is big for them.
Phaneuf is the exact type of player Burke wants (and he's going to be a pain to play against)...he's big, tough, and still has some upside. Definitely a top-two defenseman if he gets back to form (and I don't see why he won't...he'll probably get ample opportunity)
Trading 4 of your top 8 point-getters pretty much seals the deal on this season though, so it's clearly a trade that helps in the future more than now...sort of how a rebuild is meant to be done, so I can't fault them for that.
Anyone know what kind of cap space this gives the Leafs? I'm sure they'll be getting some free agents this summer...
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Post by jkr on Jan 31, 2010 17:33:18 GMT -5
Giguere is an improvement over Toskala for sure. I think he plays pretty good under pressue from what I remember, so he might work out fine...and the leafs dumping Blake's salary is big for them. Phaneuf is the exact type of player Burke wants (and he's going to be a pain to play against)...he's big, tough, and still has some upside. Definitely a top-two defenseman if he gets back to form (and I don't see why he won't...he'll probably get ample opportunity) Trading 4 of your top 8 point-getters pretty much seals the deal on this season though, so it's clearly a trade that helps in the future more than now...sort of how a rebuild is meant to be done, so I can't fault them for that. Anyone know what kind of cap space this gives the Leafs? I'm sure they'll be getting some free agents this summer... For cap numbers I usually go to www.nhlnumbers.com but it's been down all day. There is also www.nhlscap.com which is associated with hockeybuzz. I just checked & they haven't done an update. I agree, he did a good job getting rid of free agents & contracts he didn't like. But he took on a huge contract with Phaneuf & a big one with Giguere ( although it's only one year.) IMO, he's trying to stay out of the basement & avoid giving the Bruins that lottery pick. Can't blame him for that I guess. EDIT: Was reading Mirtle's blog. He gives a link that shows that the leafs now have 47 million committed to 14 players. www.capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=4 |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 31, 2010 18:04:19 GMT -5
IMO, he's trying to stay out of the basement & avoid giving the Bruins that lottery pick. Can't blame him for that I guess. Just for that: Go Leafs GO!!! |
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Post by Rhiessan on Jan 31, 2010 18:42:25 GMT -5
It's a deal that helps the Flames in the now and possibly the Laffs in the future and takes the pressure off Burke for a bit through the big name factor.
First off, the Flames D is very good and Phany wasn't even top 3 there with rumours of dressing room hicups.
You don't pay a guy that kind of money to be your 4th or 5th d-man.
Calgary needed someone to get Iggy the puck and someone to play the wing with Jok.
They got both and also replaced Phan's 4-5th D spot with White.
Laff's only win this deal IF Phaneuf can regain at least 90% of his former self, if not then the Laffs end up with a good D-man getting paid twice what he's worth.
The Giguere deal is basicly two teams exchanging over paid crap at different positions.
In all honesty, I think the Laff's actually end up closer to giving Boston a great pick, not further.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 31, 2010 18:45:50 GMT -5
Burke knows Beauchemin and he knows what he can do to Phaneuf. I like both deals from a Toronto angle. I really think they'll pair him with Komi, so Komi can cover up for the defensive mistakes ;D. |
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Post by Douper on Jan 31, 2010 18:47:07 GMT -5
It's a deal that helps the Flames in the now and possibly the Laffs in the future and takes the pressure off Burke for a bit through the big name factor. First off, the Flames D is very good and Phany wasn't even top 3 there with rumours of dressing room hicups. You don't pay a guy that kind of money to be your 4th or 5th d-man. Calgary needed someone to get Iggy the puck and someone to play the wing with Jok. They got both and also replaced Phan's 4-5th D spot with White. Laff's only win this deal IF Phaneuf can regain at least 90% of his former self, if not then the Laffs end up with a good D-man getting paid twice what he's worth. The Giguere deal is basicly two teams exchanging over paid crap at different positions. In all honesty, I think the Laff's actually end up closer to giving Boston a great pick, not further. As a Habs fan, I just hope this just blows up in the Leafs face!!! |
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Post by Rhiessan on Jan 31, 2010 19:37:49 GMT -5
Burke knows Beauchemin and he knows what he can do to Phaneuf. I like both deals from a Toronto angle. I really think they'll pair him with Komi, so Komi can cover up for the defensive mistakes ;D. I can't tell if you were making a joke or not (I thought it was funny anyway  ) but my guess is he's paired with Beauchemin. |
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Post by Roggy on Jan 31, 2010 19:51:35 GMT -5
I hate the Giguere deal, simply because it's exactly the kind of deal Gainey should have made for Gomez. Gigure wasn't wanted in Anaheim anymore, but had a ridicolous contract no one would want to take on. Toronto offered to take him, along with Anaheim's 1st entry and they still managed to dump another bad contract back on the Ducks in Blake. Montreal should have been offering Higgins for Gomez and a first, yet it was completely the other way around. The other thing about Giguere, at only 32, he's still younger than a ton of goalies out there (Roloson, Khabibulin etc), has won a Cup, with Burke, and had his best years in Anaheim under goalie coach Allaire. Funny, that seems to be who the goalie coach is in Toronto right now. As a Canadiens fan, I hate what Toronto did today because they picked up two of the best "Buy Low" superstars in the NHL right now. Also, a great cap resource on the net www.capgeek.com |
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Post by franko on Jan 31, 2010 20:02:23 GMT -5
I'm not counting on a Giggy resurrection unless he can become the Michelin man again. he has become more injury prone and less responsive to the puck , , , and definitely not as big. an upgrade over Toskala? just about anyone would be . . . but was it Toskala's fault the big 4 were the big nothing?
score 1 for the Ducks fro shedding contract . . . puts them in a place where they can spend a bit. as much as I hate to think it, Burke didn't pull the Bruins out of the Hll sweeps.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 31, 2010 20:10:37 GMT -5
I hate the Giguere deal, simply because it's exactly the kind of deal Gainey should have made for Gomez. Gigure wasn't wanted in Anaheim anymore, but had a ridicolous contract no one would want to take on. Toronto offered to take him, along with Anaheim's 1st entry and they still managed to dump another bad contract back on the Ducks in Blake. Montreal should have been offering Higgins for Gomez and a first, yet it was completely the other way around. Bang on Roggy. If there's one thing that really ticks me about the Gomez deal, it isn't Scott at all. Cap space is precious. You don't give it up easily. With a reasonable contract, Higgins, Emelin and McDonagh for Gomez and Pyatt makes sense. For freeing up cap space we should have gotten NY's 1st rounder this year as well. Yet, Gainey was so desperate to replace Koivu, he gave away CAP space for nothing. Tha kind of mistake is hard to forgive. |
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Post by jkr on Jan 31, 2010 20:41:51 GMT -5
I hate the Giguere deal, simply because it's exactly the kind of deal Gainey should have made for Gomez. Gigure wasn't wanted in Anaheim anymore, but had a ridicolous contract no one would want to take on. Toronto offered to take him, along with Anaheim's 1st entry and they still managed to dump another bad contract back on the Ducks in Blake. the tsn report just says Giguere for Blake & Toskala, there's nothing there about Anaheim's 1st pick. Did I miss something? ANd I really have to disagree with the descrption of Phaneuf & Giguere as superstars. Giguere was very good but is just average now. Phaneuf has been very good but he's not at superstar level. EDIT: This link states that the Leafs are NOT getting a pick from Anaheim. www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2010/01/31/brophy_leafs_risky_investments/ |
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Post by jkr on Jan 31, 2010 20:49:18 GMT -5
I hate the Giguere deal, simply because it's exactly the kind of deal Gainey should have made for Gomez. Gigure wasn't wanted in Anaheim anymore, but had a ridicolous contract no one would want to take on. Toronto offered to take him, along with Anaheim's 1st entry and they still managed to dump another bad contract back on the Ducks in Blake. Montreal should have been offering Higgins for Gomez and a first, yet it was completely the other way around. Bang on Roggy. If there's one thing that really ticks me about the Gomez deal, it isn't Scott at all. Cap space is precious. You don't give it up easily. With a reasonable contract, Higgins, Emelin and McDonagh for Gomez and Pyatt makes sense. For freeing up cap space we should have gotten NY's 1st rounder this year as well. Yet, Gainey was so desperate to replace Koivu, he gave away CAP space for nothing. Tha kind of mistake is hard to forgive. As I mention in my other post - no pick is coming Toronto's way. We can't slag Gainey for not doing what Burke did when Burke never did it in the first place. www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2010/01/31/brophy_leafs_risky_investments/ |
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Post by roke on Jan 31, 2010 21:04:23 GMT -5
I've been thinking about the Phaneuf trade for a bit today, and I think I like the methodology behind it. Burke isn't trying to improve this year with that trade, if he was he wouldn't be trading a big part of his offensive punch for a defenseman. He's recognized that the draft pick he traded this year is gone, and there's no point in trying to make the team better this year simply to save face. Granted, it helps that he got a name player back in the trade to take the pressure off of him, but it is a future-orientated trade.
It may work it, it may blow up in his face, but he did the right thing in not trying to save face by wasting assets on improving the team in the standings this year.
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Post by BadCompany on Jan 31, 2010 21:25:48 GMT -5
Well, you can't say Burke doesn't like to go all in...
Potential star forwards? Check (Kessel, 21, Kadri, 19).
Potential star defensemen? Check (Phaneuf, 24, Schenn, 19)
Potential star goalie? Still missing (Price?... just kidding... I hope)
The Giguere/Toskala deal is a nothing, really. Giguere is overpaid, but so are Blake and Toskala. Yeah, the Ducks can walk away from Toskala at the end of the year, but they still got two more years of that Blake contract to swallow. Blake at $4 million, versus Giguere at $6 million? When you factor in that the Ducks will have to replace Toskala with some other backup they are only going to save a million to a million and a half on the cap. Sure, million here, million there, but I'd pay a million not to have to look at Jason Blake's ugly mug every day too, so kudos to Burke. Giguere only has to be better than Toskala, so it's not like his competition is great, and hey, if Allaire and he can re-kindle some magic, who knows? Otherwise, no biggie.
On the other deal I'm with seventeen, in that I think the Leafs got potentially the best player in Phaneuf . Hagman, Stajan, White and Mayers? Meh. Decent players, but I wouldn't give up Andrei Kostitsyin for that package, and I think Phaneuf's upside is greater than our Big Boob's. Heck, I may not have given up Sergie for that package (okay, I would have). The big issue of course is the salary, but as long as Dion plays like 2008 Phaneuf and not 2010 Redden it's a steal. Big if, of course, but see above, all in. Phaneuf is actually younger than Andrei (only by a couple of months mind you, but still) and you know what they say about defensemen and their learning curves...
As for the forwards, lack thereof issue, they do have Kessel, and they do have Kadri coming. It's a rebuild, after all, they're not thinking this year, or heck, even next year. They also still have Kaberle to deal, and as Doc pointed out that could bring them back a nice forward or three. Though at this point I would keep Tomas if I was Burke, but that's just me. They are in more or less the same cap shape as we are, heading into next year, so they probably shouldn't have too many issues there. No Kovalchuk, but I didn't think he was heading there anyways, or that Burke had any interest to begin with. If they can find some idiot to take Jeff Finger off their hands they'll be fine, or they could just buy him out and save a little space that way too. Either way, I don't think they are in major trouble cap-wise.
It's an impressive day for Burke, I have to say. All in.
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Post by jkr on Jan 31, 2010 21:29:04 GMT -5
I've been thinking about the Phaneuf trade for a bit today, and I think I like the methodology behind it. Burke isn't trying to improve this year with that trade, if he was he wouldn't be trading a big part of his offensive punch for a defenseman. He's recognized that the draft pick he traded this year is gone, and there's no point in trying to make the team better this year simply to save face. Granted, it helps that he got a name player back in the trade to take the pressure off of him, but it is a future-orientated trade. It may work it, it may blow up in his face, but he did the right thing in not trying to save face by wasting assets on improving the team in the standings this year. Maybe I was a bit harsh by saying Burke did this because he wants to improve his standing & worsen the pick given to the Bruins but I think it has to be in the back of his mind. I've been thinking too. I don't think the Kessel deal is working the way he thought & I believe that if he knew his team was going to be in 29th place he would not have traded those picks. |
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Post by jkr on Jan 31, 2010 21:41:09 GMT -5
Well, you can't say Burke doesn't like to go all in... Potential star forwards? Check (Kessel, 21, Kadri, 19). Potential star defensemen? Check (Phaneuf, 24, Schenn, 19) Sorry, it's my OCD kicking in - Kessel is 22 & Schenn is 20.  We all know that this deal hinges on Phaneuf & if he can live up to that huge contract but the undercurrent I'm getting from some of these posts is that what they like most is that Burke is making a big splash. |
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Post by blny on Jan 31, 2010 21:45:16 GMT -5
I'm not sold that Phaneuf is the best player in the trade. If someone argued that he has the most potential, I would agree. At this very moment I think a very strong argument can be made that Stajan is as good, or better.
Burke gets the biggest 'name' in the deal. But is he better down the road? Hard to say. Phaneuf has a lot of work to do to become a complete player (like his salary would indicate). IMO he's a faster version of Komisarek with more offense and a better shot. They've got more than $20 million invested in Phaneuf, Komisarek, Kaberle, Finger, Exelby, Schenn. Finger and Exelby have likely played their last games of the season barring injury. I would expect Garnett to be be traded for a low pick. Finger they'll likely have to eat. IMO, Burke is setting up to trade Kaberle at some point. Tomas has his NTC for the rest of the season but, starting this Summer, it's gone.
I would seem en mass that Leafs fans are ecstatic and Flames fans feel like it's 1991 all over again. At least that's the sense I get from hfboards.
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Post by Roggy on Jan 31, 2010 21:56:19 GMT -5
My mistake on the 1st round pick. I was going off the early reports I read, then left to stew while out before coming home and posting.
Giggy for Toskala and Blake without a 1st entry is an even deal.
Still doesn't mean Gainey shouldn't have been after NYR's 1st for taking Gomez off their hands.
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) but my guess is he's paired with Beauchemin.
