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Post by Skilly on Jul 10, 2010 9:46:36 GMT -5
So the heat are building a powerhouse ... ok ... Wade, James and Bosh decided they would build it for them. This is borderline collusion, I know, I know, it is only collusion when an owner does it, but the mere fact you can openly do this in the NBA is kinda stinky.
Another stinky thing, is these "sign and trades". Can someone explain to me how they work. Bosh and James already told the world they were going to Miami, they were UFAs, so why was there a need for Miami to trade anything? And what did they trade? Four first round draft choices, 2 second round draft choices, and 32 million in trade exceptions?? Is it just me, or is that alot to give up for players you were going to get anyway???
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Post by franko on Jul 10, 2010 10:47:31 GMT -5
There was no need for Miami to trade a thing -- in fact, you are right, it is better for them to wait it out and sign Bosh as a UFA. Signing directly affects their bottom line and Bosh's wallet.
Can't remember the particulars, but the Raptors could have signed Bosh for "X" number of dollars, then traded him and received whatever in return.
Signing directly, Bosh could only receive "x" number of dollars [note the "X" and the "x"]
Sign and trade means that the tradee can sign for a higher "salary"; sign directly with new team means that the tradee is can only make fewer millions [it's a percentage thing . . . read it yesterday but can't remember where]
wiki it
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Post by CentreHice on Jul 10, 2010 12:20:40 GMT -5
This past week on the Fan 590, they were talking about the prospect of all 3 signing in Miami....and the concensus was that a team needs 3 or 4 superstars now to go all the way. Used to be a couple....not anymore.
I know they're free to sign anywhere....but it just doesn't ring true.
Kind of like what Selanne and Kariya did in Colorado in 03/04. I know they took a pay cut, but they went to the Avs as a duo primarily with the hopes of winning the Cup with Sakic, Forsberg, and Blake. Two upper echelon players joining forces with another group of all-stars.
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Post by jkr on Jul 10, 2010 13:33:12 GMT -5
I don't watch a lot of basketball but I neer considered Bosh a superstar. He needed help for sure but what did he do in Toronto? Seven years, 2 playoff appearances & 11 playoff games. NOt superstar material.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 10, 2010 17:26:38 GMT -5
I saw the introduction of the three newest members of the Miami Heat ... and promptly turned the channel. Then I thought, that's a lot of talent, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be a great team. They have three stars but it will be up to coach, Erik Spoelstra, to make the Heat into a team. Easier said then done, I think anyway. Cheers. Oh ... go Raptors  |
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Post by Yossarian on Jul 10, 2010 20:04:50 GMT -5
With respect to the sign-and-trade vs. direct signing, a sign-and-trade gives the player the opportunity to max out his earnings, while at the same time give the team that is losing the player, an opportunity to at least get something for the loss. The NBA has a rule in place that gives the player's existing team an advantage in retaining their own free agents by offering them more money; otherwise referred to as the Larry Bird Exception. In effect Team A signs their own player at the maximum allowed under the LB exception (knowing full well that his intention is to sign with Team B). Team A then trades player to Team B, at the contract he signed with Team A (at max money), and Team A gains players/draft choices for a player they were never going to sign anyway. If Bosh signs directly with Miami, rather than initially with Toronto, then to Miami through a trade, Toronto gets nothing. If Toronto is able to work something out with Miami to receive something in return, Toronto signs him, and then trades him to Miami. The problem is Miami played their cards to clear as much cap space as possible hoping to make such a splash. They don't have much in the way of players to trade for. There isn't much to trade for. If I were Colangelo, I wouldn't bother, and just start the re-build once again. Dave Feschuk wrote a scathing article about Colangelo in yesterday's Star. Interesting read..... www.thestar.com/sports/basketball/nba/raptors/article/833947--feschuk-colangelo-s-not-building-he-s-scrambling |
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Post by roke on Jul 10, 2010 22:04:35 GMT -5
I believe TSN reported yesterday that the trade had already been done. Toronto got their 1st in 2011 (traded previously), Miami's 1st in 2011 (lottery-protected) and a trade exemption. Imagine if Bosh hadn't signed with Miami and the Raptors didn't have their own first next season (I assume it wasn't lottery protected). That would have been... interesting. Edit: Here we goThe NBA salary cap is incredibly complicated; it makes my head spin. You have a pretty good handle on it Yossarian |
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Post by Skilly on Jul 11, 2010 0:07:49 GMT -5
With respect to the sign-and-trade vs. direct signing, a sign-and-trade gives the player the opportunity to max out his earnings, while at the same time give the team that is losing the player, an opportunity to at least get something for the loss. The NBA has a rule in place that gives the player's existing team an advantage in retaining their own free agents by offering them more money; otherwise referred to as the Larry Bird Exception. In effect Team A signs their own player at the maximum allowed under the LB exception (knowing full well that his intention is to sign with Team B). Team A then trades player to Team B, at the contract he signed with Team A (at max money), and Team A gains players/draft choices for a player they were never going to sign anyway. If Bosh signs directly with Miami, rather than initially with Toronto, then to Miami through a trade, Toronto gets nothing. If Toronto is able to work something out with Miami to receive something in return, Toronto signs him, and then trades him to Miami. The problem is Miami played their cards to clear as much cap space as possible hoping to make such a splash. They don't have much in the way of players to trade for. There isn't much to trade for. If I were Colangelo, I wouldn't bother, and just start the re-build once again. Dave Feschuk wrote a scathing article about Colangelo in yesterday's Star. Interesting read..... www.thestar.com/sports/basketball/nba/raptors/article/833947--feschuk-colangelo-s-not-building-he-s-scramblingI guess my problem with it is this .... and forgive me if i dont explain it properly, cause it is confusing and I have a hard time even thinking it ... A sign and trade in the NBA can only occur if you immediately trade the player after signing. This is in place so as the team can't back out and try to retain the player. The Larry Bird exemption was put in place to sign AND retain your own free agents. The Raptors and Cavs, had no intention of retaining either ... so IMO, I don't think the teams should be allowed to use the Bird exemption. I know they are allowed, but it seems that it is a loophole the NBA lets exist so as to make a mockery of the salary cap |
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Post by BadCompany on Jul 11, 2010 7:50:12 GMT -5
This past week on the Fan 590, they were talking about the prospect of all 3 signing in Miami....and the concensus was that a team needs 3 or 4 superstars now to go all the way. Used to be a couple....not anymore. I know they're free to sign anywhere....but it just doesn't ring true. Kind of like what Selanne and Kariya did in Colorado in 03/04. I know they took a pay cut, but they went to the Avs as a duo primarily with the hopes of winning the Cup with Sakic, Forsberg, and Blake. Two upper echelon players joining forces with another group of all-stars. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you're a player that is. There are people who are outraged at Ilya Kovalchuk over a rumored offer from the New York Islanders. An offer that hasn't been substantiated, much less even accepted. "If he does accept it, he's only going for the money, the greedy b*stard." On the other hand, when you have superstars taking less money to try and win a championship, people scream collusion and question the integrity of the game. "It's not fair, those b*stards!" What is it we always say about professional players? That we want them to do anything it takes to win a championship? Isn't that what these players are doing? Yeah, it sucks to be a fan of Toronto or Cleveland, but look at those teams; they both now suck without their star players. Heck, both could be lottery teams next season. What does that say about the organization's chances of winning a championship, even if they had of retained their stars? They were slim to none to begin with, and the stars were going to be expected to do it all on their own. As jkr pointed out the Raptors had made the playoffs only twice in the seven years Bosh had been there, and as he also pointed Bosh isn't even a superstar, he's just expected to be one. He's more of a complimentary player, which is exactly what he'll now be in Miami. Look at the bums James was surrounded with in Cleveland. The fact that the Cavaliers were anything close to decent speaks volumes about how great a player James really is. The fact that they are going to be terrible without him says everything you need to know about his supporting cast. Rather than pointing accusatory fingers at the players, fans should be (and in many cases are) pointing them at management. It's not like these guys bailed after six games or something, they stuck it out for years, and neither one of them is any closer to winning a championship. Who amongst hasn't left a poorly run company to go work for a better one? The Heat may not win it all - they play the games for a reason - but I for one can't criticize these guys for putting themselves in the best possible position to do so. Good on them, I say. |
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Post by seventeen on Jul 11, 2010 12:54:45 GMT -5
I don't blame the players at all (except that it appears Bosh could have been more politically correct in his tweeting, but he's always been very complimentary of TO). I can't help thinking they're going to need 3 basketballs on the floor in Miami. I don't automatically think they're going to win it all. Can they play together? They're sharing the budget, can they share the ball? Can they play defense? If the answer is yes, then perhaps the Lakers championship hopes just took a dive.
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Post by CentreHice on Jul 11, 2010 14:39:04 GMT -5
I agree...UFAs are free to go, plan, conspire, join forces...whatever.
I feel sorry for the fans of those "farm" teams, though. Whether it's inept management or not....
When I followed the Expos, watching great player after great player develop only for other teams to scoop up was so frustrating.
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Post by Skilly on Jul 11, 2010 16:50:09 GMT -5
I agree...UFAs are free to go, plan, conspire, join forces...whatever. I feel sorry for the fans of those "farm" teams, though. Whether it's inept management or not.... When I followed the Expos, watching great player after great player develop only for other teams to scoop up was so frustrating. I don't mind UFAs conspiring ... its when the teams use weak rules (and yes I know they are in place and its supposedly all above board) to circumvent the cap. Without the help of Toronto and Cleveland, James and Bosh would never accept a less than maximum contract with the Heat. |
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Post by Tankdriver on Jul 11, 2010 21:59:04 GMT -5
Just to clear up sign and trade. The original team can offer an extra year....so instead of a max 5 yr. 100 million contract, the original team can offer 6 yrs and I believe 128 million. So this rule was made to give original teams the chance to offer more money per year than anyone else, to give them a better chance to resign their own stars. This teams do sign and trades to get something instead of nothing at all. Kinda like Nashville trading Hamhuis for a draft pick before the draft knowing the had no chance of signing him.
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Post by Yossarian on Jul 11, 2010 22:09:54 GMT -5
Bosh had already signed an extension when he did not have to. At the time he was convinced the team was building a winner around him.If he convinced that there was a winner somewhere down the line in Toronto, he would have stayed. 7 years is enough to realize a dead end.
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