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Post by Cranky on May 2, 2011 0:20:04 GMT -5
I have a confession........I couldn't see the forest from the trees......but now I do.
In here and somewhere else, I simply couldn't understand why a lot of people think that Harper is "controlling". To me, he seemed to do things and act in a perfectly natural way. Tonight it dawned on me, he is doing exactly what I do and what one does to run a company. EXACTLY. Get everyone to go into one direction, keep the message simple, get results. Deal with anyone who doesn't follow the line in a decisive manner. Top down vision and leadership. Get it done.
But that's not what people want. They want to believe they have a sense of control, a warm and fuzzy guy who listens to them, who will "help" them, who will give them hope for a better, easier tomorrow. Does it matter that it's an illusion? It doesn't matter that in a democracy there are millions of people and they ALL have slightly different needs and wants that simply can't be served with anything more then lip service.
In the US we had obama with "hope and change" and now we have Layton with "I will give you what you want". They can't, they are not, but does it matter? That's what people want and want to believe they are getting. Then when they don't get it, they want to move to someone else who gives them another dose of fuzzy good and promises.....
.....and another dose of broken promises and disappointments.
I get it.
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Post by BadCompany on May 2, 2011 11:23:10 GMT -5
But that's not what people want. They want to believe they have a sense of control, a warm and fuzzy guy who listens to them, who will "help" them, who will give them hope for a better, easier tomorrow. Does it matter that it's an illusion? It doesn't matter that in a democracy there are millions of people and they ALL have slightly different needs and wants that simply can't be served with anything more then lip service. I believe they call that "democracy". Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
-Winston Churchill |
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Post by Cranky on May 2, 2011 17:31:32 GMT -5
But that's not what people want. They want to believe they have a sense of control, a warm and fuzzy guy who listens to them, who will "help" them, who will give them hope for a better, easier tomorrow. Does it matter that it's an illusion? It doesn't matter that in a democracy there are millions of people and they ALL have slightly different needs and wants that simply can't be served with anything more then lip service. I believe they call that "democracy". Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
-Winston ChurchillShort of voting on every policy, (good luck with getting anything done) democracy ends after you vote.....until you vote again. If you want to believe that you control policy after you vote, let's hear it. |
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Post by BadCompany on May 2, 2011 19:29:49 GMT -5
I believe they call that "democracy". Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
-Winston ChurchillShort of voting on every policy, (good luck with getting anything done) democracy ends after you vote.....until you vote again. If you want to believe that you control policy after you vote, let's hear it. Depends on what you want out of your democracy, or your democratically elected representatives. Obviously you can't vote on every policy; that's why you pick somebody to represent you. You review each candidate, their beliefs and policies, you listen to their plans, you tell them what your plans are and in the end you pick the person who you think whose beliefs and policies are closest to your own, whose plans best match the plans you want to see. Government of the people, by the people, for the people. With the exception of one riding in Canada nobody in this country votes for Stephen Harper. I just voted, his name was nowhere on my ballot. " Deal with anyone who doesn't follow the line in a decisive manner." By extension you are dealing with ME in a decisive manner. If MY representative cannot have a voice, then why did I elect them? Why have a representative democracy? Why not just vote for a (hopefully) benevolent dictator? Obviously I am not naive enough to think that any party can survive without some sort of discipline within the ranks. But if you cannot at least create the illusion of populist power then you won't survive in a democracy. For better or worse it's not a business, and running it like one won't get you too far. |
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Post by CentreHice on May 2, 2011 20:59:41 GMT -5
Well said, BC. ============================================== Looks as if the Conservatives may very well get their majority....with the NDP as the official opposition. Next up: Liberal and Bloc leadership conventions. I hope that's done with house money.  The Bloc may not even survive. And good luck to McGuinty.....tonight's the Golden Globes to your Oscars, Dalton.... |
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Post by CentreHice on May 2, 2011 21:24:43 GMT -5
Iggy and Gilles are both trailing in their ridings.
Wow.
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Post by CentreHice on May 2, 2011 21:47:15 GMT -5
Libs absolutely crushed! In terms of habitual voting....it appears left-leaning Libs went to the NDP......right-leaning went to the Conservatives.
Rae ahead by only 280 votes.
If the Libs want any hope of rebuilding it won't be with him as leader, that's for sure.
Obvious choice to groom in the next couple of years is Justin Trudeau. Then again, that's likely more sizzle over steak.
Congrats to the Conservatives.....please govern wisely.
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Post by franko on May 2, 2011 22:00:20 GMT -5
Libs blew it rushing in to another coronation with Iggy . . . they'll have plenty of time now.
NDP will be able to challenge the Conservatives with a strong opposition, but now they'll be under tighter scrutiny.
The anti-Harper vote was enough to split things and give him his majority . . . we'll see if we live to regret it.
And the Bloc? I've always thought it would be better for separatists not to have a Federal Party -- let the PQ take the feds on as a natural enemy.
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Post by CentreHice on May 2, 2011 22:08:02 GMT -5
Was it an anti-Harper vote, franko....or an anti-Iggy vote?
Perhaps an anti-minority/anti-coalition vote. People want stability for the next while.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 2, 2011 22:30:57 GMT -5
The people of Quebec weren't kidding when they said they were voting for a change. The Bloc has been all but wiped out! Three seats thus far ...
... Layton's time to rise. He asked for it and he got it ... responsibility! Looks as if the Liberals and the NDP have swapped traditional places.
Well done to Chretien and Martin, and their feud that ended leaving the party leaderless.
Cheers.
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Post by franko on May 2, 2011 22:39:14 GMT -5
gotta admit, I'm a little surprised.
pegged the Bloc with 35-40
pegged the Cons with 132-137
pegged the Libs with 50-60
and pegged the NDP with 75, which still would have been a great victory
oh, and the Greens with 1 [May should have gone there in the first place].
For the most part politics is style over substance./ Iggy has little style, Jacko has lots . . . and once the wheels got turning they kept going .
In answer, CH, Iggy did not tap into anti-Harper sentiment -- he kept bouncing from thought to thought, hoping one would stick; the Jack nailed him with the "why don't you show up for work" line [I'da answered "I'm out with the people trying to do something rather than taking the easy way and staying in a cushy office in Ottawa" -- if I could think that quickly], and the snowball started rolling and could not be stopped.
The Liberals look like a tired old party, the NDP looks fresh . . . and charisma won the left vote. The Conservatives took the centre-right vote, and the Liberals took the dregs. There is always a strong anti-right vote that if united would win every time, which is why I said there was split in the anti-Harper vote.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 2, 2011 22:39:46 GMT -5
Kingston remains Liberal. Every candidate for Kingston and the Thousand Islands was new.
Cheers.
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Post by franko on May 2, 2011 22:43:34 GMT -5
... Layton's time to rise. He asked for it and he got it ... responsibility! Looks as if the Liberals and the NDP have swapped traditional places. Well done to Chretien and Martin, and their feud that ended leaving the party leaderless. Cheers. bingo-bango. there may be a left-wing merger after the next election . . . or not. the NDP are going to be hard-pressed to offer a strong opposition -- and I'm interested to see how the newbies will fare . . . many didn't expect to win and now they'll have to actually learn what politics is about -- including those couple of candidates that didn't campaign 'cause they went on vacation. and ya gotta love egos . . . though the conservatives went through the feuding thing too. |
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Post by Cranky on May 2, 2011 23:08:56 GMT -5
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Post by Polarice on May 3, 2011 5:56:18 GMT -5
Election couldn't have worked out better!!
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Post by HABsurd on May 3, 2011 6:36:32 GMT -5
Well, as someone who is fiscally conservative and socially liberal I don't see a place for myself in this political arrangement.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 3, 2011 7:35:38 GMT -5
Honestly didn't see a majority coming. Thought we were going into a status quo of sorts.
* As much as I liked seeing Quebecers vote for change, I really didn't like seeing Duceppe lose in his riding. However, if they wanted to put an exclamation point on things that's the way to do it.
* Ditto the Liberals and Ignatieff.
* Quite the election party in NDP central I dare say.
* The Bloc get wiped out in QC, while the Liberals get rolled over in TO.
* It's entirely possible that it might take a Tory majority to fall flat on its face in order for people to take the Liberals seriously again ... but they lacked a leader during the election and they're still lacking now.
Cheers.
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Post by Polarice on May 3, 2011 7:54:06 GMT -5
Honestly didn't see a majority coming. Thought we were going into a status quo of sorts. * As much as I liked seeing Quebecers vote for change, I really didn't like seeing Duceppe lose in his riding. However, if they wanted to put an exclamation point on things that's the way to do it. * Ditto the Liberals and Ignatieff. * Quite the election party in NDP central I dare say. * The Bloc get wiped out in QC, while the Liberals get rolled over in TO. * It's entirely possible that it might take a Tory majority to fall flat on its face in order for people to take the Liberals seriously again ... but they lacked a leader during the election and they're still lacking now. Cheers. This could be the end of the Liberals and the Bloc if Harper has his way....he's planning on cutting party funding. Be weird having a two party system. |
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Post by blny on May 3, 2011 8:13:58 GMT -5
We've had a two party system for years. There was nothing liberal about Paul Martin, except the pin on his jacket.
I'm surprised by the majority and surprised by the demise of the Libs and Bloc. It's quite clear that the country may not like Harper but they hate Ignatieff. I wonder how long he stays in Canada this time. IMO, the NDP landslide in Quebec was about two things. 1) the people are fed up with Duceppe 2) voting NDP was the best way to thumb their nose at the establishment.
I would love to see 2 electoral reforms come in the next 4 years.
1. Impose a minimum time period between the last election and a no-confidence vote. Enough of this 4 elections in 7 years crap.
2. If you want to run federally and have seats in Ottawa you must have representatives run in EVERY province and territory. Provincial parties have no business running federally, and that's what the Bloc are - a provincial party.
I have no love for Harper, as I don't think he has the country's best interest at heart. But, I do think he's better than Ignatieff. This country's fastest growing demographic is the senior group. Economically, and politically, this country HAS to start looking seriously at health care and taking care of that demographic. We're not making babies in the amounts we used to, and the workforce is getting older and older. I sincerely hope that there's a shift in spending that reflects that.
It will be interesting to see how Layton and his caucus do as official opposition. I don't think Jack's a bad guy, and he's got some good ideas/goals. We'll see how he does with his new found power. On a local NDP note (though not my riding), Robert Chisholm won his riding of Dartmouth-Cole Harbour. He's a former leader of the NS NDP party, and almost won the election in 1998. He'd dropped out of politics for a while, but obviously maintained ties. I have to wonder if Alexa McDonough was part of the group that convinced him to run nationally. I also don't think he'd have done it if he didn't see a future with the party - perhaps after Layton ... FWIW, this end of the country is crying for strong national party leadership. He might be the man to do it.
What will happen with the Bloc and Libs ... I sincerely hope the Bloc wither and die, but expect them to hang on somehow. The Libs are certainly at a crossroads. I don't see any of the 30 some Liberal seat winners willing to give up their seat for Iggy to run in a bi-election, so he's as good as done. Who takes over? I saw Bob Rae speak last night. I don't know if he won in his riding or not. He's a well educated, bilingual, guy with a lot of experience. He's still a hated man in Ontario though - as much as I disagree with a lot of the reasons for that hate. If the grits are going to recover they need someone that can win back votes in Ontario.
Interesting times ahead.
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Post by CentreHice on May 3, 2011 8:21:16 GMT -5
Was that a political announcement or a cliche-filled beer commercial? I saw Harper's speech last night. Off the top, he paid tribute to Preston Manning, who was in the crowd. And it reminded me, once again, that this edition has its roots deep in Reform/Alliance, which rose in popularity to fill the void left by Mulroney's (or should I say Campbell's) 2 federal PC seats. A party that needed to assume the "Conservative brand" to reach the psychological legitimacy with voters to take on the Liberals. One platitude from that commercial I will hold him to: "It is our purpose that Canada must be great....it must be great for ALL Canadians...." As lofty/empty as it gets....but he said it...not me. This board has posters from many areas of the country. I look forward to reading how Harper is meeting that ideal. |
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Post by franko on May 3, 2011 9:01:11 GMT -5
Well, as someone who is fiscally conservative and socially liberal I don't see a place for myself in this political arrangement. just wondering . . . is there a place? I think you have to lean one way or the other [my problem, too -- I just don't know which way to lean!]. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 3, 2011 9:05:14 GMT -5
Was that a political announcement or a cliche-filled beer commercial? Haven't watched it yet. No, no, man ... you had it right the first time. Mulroney knew he was going to be buried and ran for the hills. I honestly feel Kim Campbell was simply the fall-girl in this case. She didn't have a chance from the get-go. It will take time but I believe the Liberals will be back, but they have to sort out their leadership problems first. And besides, if the Tories can come back from just two seats ... I'm interested in seeing how long people will give the NDP a chance. Is this a one-time thing or is it an actual trend towards change? Cheers. |
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Post by franko on May 3, 2011 9:19:24 GMT -5
We've had a two party system for years. There was nothing liberal about Paul Martin, except the pin on his jacket. boy you got that right -- he was more right-wing in his cuts that the Torys are! My second favourite "THis Hour Has 22 Minutes" sketch was "Marg Princess Warrior" talking at Paul Martin and telling him that he wasn't a Liberal. Didn't Harper do something like that with the "fixed election" date, only to break it himself? If Harper hadn't won you'da had the Wild Rose Party run in Alberta only. I'm good with your suggestion; however, I expect that hard separatists would complain. Further, forced democracy is not democratic. Does any politician? Really? They all sound so caring but in the end its about ego and power. I think that the Conservative ads were right -- Iggy didn't come back for me/you/us. But Harper isn't here for us either. That is going to be interesting. Bring out the panic of a "two tier system". Reality is that it's going to have to happen -- will it be done compassionately? As a person who identifies himself with Christianity, it should guide Harper's decisions. I don't think it will. Dum, da dum dum. Very interesting -- and an interesting caucus. Steep learning curve coming. Bloc won't wither . . . there's strong enough sentiment for separation; I think this election has made the PQ stronger. If I were Iggy I'd take up teaching again in the fall. If I were the Liberals I'd appoint an interim leader -- one who won;t run for the leadership -- and call for a leadership convention in 2 - 2 1/2 years, but have a policy convention next year. Retool your message and be prepared to stick to it. Note each and every NDP foible in the next couple of years and in four years to point to them as not ready for prime time but say "we've learned our lesson and we're back -- we are not Canada's [natural] party but we are the best alternative to the Conservatives, and here's why. I think Trudeau will be the man, and if I were him I'd go to Alberta and say "I'm not my dad -- I have my own ideas, and here they are". For sure. |
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Post by Skilly on May 3, 2011 9:59:58 GMT -5
I'm surprised by the majority and surprised by the demise of the Libs and Bloc. It's quite clear that the country may not like Harper but they hate Ignatieff. I wonder how long he stays in Canada this time. IMO, the NDP landslide in Quebec was about two things. 1) the people are fed up with Duceppe 2) voting NDP was the best way to thumb their nose at the establishment. I think they just were willing to give someone else a chance to give them what they want ... the Cons are dead set opposed to opening constitutional talks; the Libs are too wishy-washy and Quebecers gave them their chance; the Bloc had 20 years to get something done and still they are no further ahead; but the NDP have stated they are not opposed to talking about constitutional reform. And with 59 of their 102 seats from Quebec, you can bet they will be reminding him of this promise. On Oct 19, 2015 I think you will see the NDP back to 30 seats ... when Quebecers realize that another federal party let them down. Those are both two highly undemocratic suggestions. Both would also require constitutional reform .... it is my right to run for public office. You are taking away that right with the second measure, by now saying I have to have the acceptance of a federal party to run .... it is anyone's right to run as an independent. The first measure is even more dangerous. ALL spending/monetary bills are confidence bills. After elections, a party has a period of time to bring down a budget. You are giving the elected party a "freebie" to put everything and anything into his budget implementation bill. For instance, let's say Harper decides that Nova Scotia will have to give up its share of Sable Islands oil .. or any punitive measure to any province. |
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Post by Cranky on May 3, 2011 10:04:41 GMT -5
On the ground, in people homes an doorsteps, the issue was about jobs, economy, jobs, economy. When the orange tide started to look real, even LIBERAL families moved over to conservatives to stop it. The mantra that th country is left died in GTA because it knows the damage the left can do. Witness the Rob Ford landslide. Witness how blue it is this morning.
There was no question that it was going to be a 145+ Conservative minority, what was unknown is if there would be enough shift in the undecided and liberal households. It was.
There is no real shift the the left. Moving from the Bloc to NDP is ideological irrelevant.
Last but not least..... Quebec herd like major shift has been seen before. My concern is that as it evaporates, Jack doesn't start to ignite anti Federalist rhetoric to hold on. Thankfully, English media already has an eye on this. If Jack becomes a closet separatist to maintain power, then count on massive Conservative majorities for the next couple of decades. Needless to say, if Jack screws up, it's going to be Harpers fault in some eyes.
McStupid,, you're next.
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Post by Cranky on May 3, 2011 10:10:27 GMT -5
I'm surprised by the majority and surprised by the demise of the Libs and Bloc. It's quite clear that the country may not like Harper but they hate Ignatieff. I wonder how long he stays in Canada this time. IMO, the NDP landslide in Quebec was about two things. 1) the people are fed up with Duceppe 2) voting NDP was the best way to thumb their nose at the establishment. I think they just were willing to give someone else a chance to give them what they want ... the Cons are dead set opposed to opening constitutional talks; the Libs are too wishy-washy and Quebecers gave them their chance; the Bloc had 20 years to get something done and still they are no further ahead; but the NDP have stated they are not opposed to talking about constitutional reform. And with 59 of their 102 seats from Quebec, you can bet they will be reminding him of this promise. On Oct 19, 2015 I think you will see the NDP back to 30 seats ... when Quebecers realize that another federal party let them down. Bingo. The lefties can scream all they want that the country has shifter to the far left. It's absolute nonsense. Jack has promised what he can't deliver and Quebec will heard away from him the next election. Harper rather open his veins with a rusted axe then open constitutional talks. On the other hand,how crazy is Jack? If he becomes a closet separatist, he can do a lot of damage to Canada. |
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Post by seventeen on May 3, 2011 10:16:13 GMT -5
I kept hoping for more minority governments until some reasonable leader emerged from one of the parties. Not to be.
With respect to the results and what Canadians may or may not be thinking, I'm also reminded of that old saying, "Be careful what you wish for".
What I do feel is that Harper will take off his sheep costume and the real wolf will come out now. Arts and culture will have to hunker down because there is no soul in this government.
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Post by Cranky on May 3, 2011 10:38:58 GMT -5
Arts and culture are safe but wont get any breaks.
Gun registry, Dead.
Tax subsidies to political parties. Dead.
CBC funding. Slashed.
Sky falling groups funding. Dead. Suzuki wont stop crying until his heart stops beating. Expect legislation that looks into special interest financing. There was US environmental groups mounting attack ads in Canada. They did no damage but they need to be dealt with.
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Post by blny on May 3, 2011 10:53:06 GMT -5
I don't see anything undemocratic about telling all the parties that if they want to run in a FEDERAL election they have to have federal candidates running across the country. If the Green Party can do it, so can the Bloc.
If every province/territory had the same number of seats, it wouldn't make a difference. I'm not asking for that though. Instead, be a true National party instead of a Nationalistic one.
Trudeau definitely seems to be slowly building up to political future. He sure is methodical though - showing far more patience than his father ever had lol. Say what you will about his father, but PET accomplished some of the most important pieces of legislation in this country's history. He did some of with a minority government as well. Pity he had no sense of fiscal responsibility lol.
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Post by blny on May 3, 2011 10:59:52 GMT -5
Arts and culture are safe but wont get any breaks. Gun registry, Dead. Tax subsidies to political parties. Dead. CBC funding. Slashed. Sky falling groups funding. Dead. Suzuki wont stop crying until his heart stops beating. Expect legislation that looks into special interest financing. There was US environmental groups mounting attack ads in Canada. They did no damage but they need to be dealt with. Kyoto Accord and UN short comings should be enough of a basis to have ended Harper. IMO, he wasn't attacked hard enough on these topics. Kyoto only makes sense. Of course when you come from Alberta and the oil sands (more polluting than any other form of oil exploration) are your bread and butter, you shouldn't expect them to put much stock in the environment. I'm no enviro nut, but we need to better. Not hybrid better - because they're worse for the environment than a Hummer when you factor in battery disposal. |
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