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Post by Cranky on Jul 30, 2011 12:56:20 GMT -5
What is your opinion on allowing organized praying in secular schools during class hours? As an atheist, I'm not goign to voice my completely unbiased opinion.  ~~~~~~~~~ Groups to protest over Muslim prayers in school A coalition of faith-based groups is planning to picket outside the Toronto District School Board headquarters on Monday in protest to Muslim prayer being allowed inside a public school. The Jewish Defence League, the Canadian Hindu Advocacy and the Christian Heritage group, among others, have united in recent weeks to oppose a school's decision to let some 300 Muslim students pray in its cafeteria. The Valley Park Middle School, at Don Mills Road and Overlea Boulevard in Toronto's east end, has been allowing the prayers for three years but only recently attracted the opposition. The school started offering services on Friday because Muslim students were skipping classes to attend prayers at a nearby mosque. A local imam leads the prayers at the school. Premier Dalton McGuinty last week said schools and their communities should be responsible for deciding how to accommodate students' religious beliefs. McGuinty said school boards should make the call based on each school's individual situation and the community in which it is located. The Canadian Hindu Advocacy organization claims the TDSB is showing religious favoritism by allowing the prayer services. It has demanded the TDSB take a stand and ensure religious equality in the system. At a press conference last week Meir Weinstein, of the Jewish Defence League, said they would consider demanding a public inquiry if the board did not end the Muslim prayer sessions. The school board says that by offering a prayer space the school is meeting an obligation to accommodate students' religious beliefs. The board says only students who wish to participate attend the prayer service, and that the costs are covered by the community, not public money. The protest is expected to be held at 5:30 p.m. outside the Toronto District School Board headquarters at 5050 Yonge St. |
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Post by sergejean on Jul 30, 2011 21:43:52 GMT -5
The problem I have with this is once you accommodate one group, you have to accommodate the other.
If you have to pray then go ahead and do it wherever you want but don't disturb anybody and don't ask me for any favour.
I will be extreme here but... religious beliefs aren't rationale. We could very much one day have a religion asking that you masturbate at 2pm every day. What do we do then? Lock up the school washroom to accommodate students between 2 and 2.15?
When it comes to religion, the first reaction should be: "don't even tell me, I don't want to know. Do whatever you have to do without disturbing anyone or infringing any rules. You know your obligations... act as you see fit, don't get me involved in any way and be ready to face the consequences of your decisions."
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Post by HABsurd on Aug 1, 2011 0:24:36 GMT -5
The problem I have with this is once you accommodate one group, you have to accommodate the other. I would agree that they shouldn't be accommodated. Unfortunately, the problem in Ontario is that Roman Catholics are already accommodated as their school boards are publicly funded. So, you either treat other religions similarly, alas for John Tory, or you remove funding for Roman Catholic Separate Schools and get decimated at the polls. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 1, 2011 15:40:51 GMT -5
I'm a part-time education facilitator at the local college here in K-town. We addressed this very issue in the classroom. One of my courses heard that the Muslim students had gotten their own prayer room and some of the Christians in the class felt they had been favoured.
Well, no, they weren't. They approached the college with a request for one and they got it. The college was prepared to accommodate other faiths as well, but no requests were made.
I'm not sure the college has in place for the agnostics and/or atheists in the student body, but IMHO they'd have to honour their requests as well. If there are concessions for prayers that are taking up time in the curriculum, then there should be a study period (let's say) for the agnostics and atheists.
Just my opinion.
Cheers.
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Post by Cranky on Aug 1, 2011 20:10:35 GMT -5
I'm a part-time education facilitator at the local college here in K-town. We addressed this very issue in the classroom. One of my courses heard that the Muslim students had gotten their own prayer room and some of the Christians in the class felt they had been favoured. Well, no, they weren't. They approached the college with a request for one and they got it. The college was prepared to accommodate other faiths as well, but no requests were made. I'm not sure the college has in place for the agnostics and/or atheists in the student body, but IMHO they'd have to honour their requests as well. If there are concessions for prayers that are taking up time in the curriculum, then there should be a study period (let's say) for the agnostics and atheists. Just my opinion. Cheers. It's nice and generous of the college to do that.....but where exactly does it meet idea of a secular school system? That's a slippery slope of accommodating religion in a school system whose purpose is secular education, not religious indoctrination.....of any faith. |
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Post by BadCompany on Aug 2, 2011 7:19:26 GMT -5
Slippery slope indeed. Austrian driver allowed 'pastafarian' headgear photoAn Austrian atheist has won the right to be shown on his driving-licence photo wearing a pasta strainer as "religious headgear"www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523 |
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Post by clear observer on Aug 2, 2011 9:25:55 GMT -5
Slippery slope indeed. Austrian driver allowed 'pastafarian' headgear photoAn Austrian atheist has won the right to be shown on his driving-licence photo wearing a pasta strainer as "religious headgear"www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523Yep...the world's gone straight to hell. |
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Post by madhabber on Aug 2, 2011 12:32:43 GMT -5
My son goes to a public school. In the mornings, they play a recording of the National Anthem. Then they have a "Moment of Silence", then the day's annoucements.
The Moment of Silence can be used to pray to whichever god(s), prophet(s) or saint(s) you want to invoke. Be it Yahweh, Jesus, Mohamed, Xenu, Vishnu, St Michael, the Sainte Flanelle, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the baloney sandwich orbiting around Saturn that you can't disprove or you can do nothing and stand there for half a minute and be quiet. It isn't much to ask, but the 30 seconds it takes teaches you to have respect for other ideas.
The problem with that, is that in a secular school system, even that 30 seconds does not belong. No time or other school resources should be alloted for any form of prayer. However, I will concede the 30 seconds as it will not hurt anyone as long as any prayers are said in silence and without any displays. There shouldn't even be any turbans or other head coverings inside the school. Baseball caps have to be removed, so too should religious headgear.
Just keep your religion to yourself, and practice it at home or in your house of worship.
I too am an atheist and I absolutely detest any form of religion.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 2, 2011 12:34:06 GMT -5
I'm a part-time education facilitator at the local college here in K-town. We addressed this very issue in the classroom. One of my courses heard that the Muslim students had gotten their own prayer room and some of the Christians in the class felt they had been favoured. Well, no, they weren't. They approached the college with a request for one and they got it. The college was prepared to accommodate other faiths as well, but no requests were made. I'm not sure the college has in place for the agnostics and/or atheists in the student body, but IMHO they'd have to honour their requests as well. If there are concessions for prayers that are taking up time in the curriculum, then there should be a study period (let's say) for the agnostics and atheists. Just my opinion. Cheers. It's nice and generous of the college to do that.....but where exactly does it meet idea of a secular school system? That's a slippery slope of accommodating religion in a school system whose purpose is secular education, not religious indoctrination.....of any faith. It can indeed be a slippery slope if it's not handled properly. It was the same when I was in the army. While in the field or on a mission, we had soldiers who appreciated being able to practice their faith(s) while deployed. The problem was finding a clergyman who was conversant in most faiths, so the army simply tasked out a military padre who would provide the service required. This was a form of accommodation that was accepted by the soldiers. However, if it did interfere with operations then the service was either cancelled or postponed. I don't think I conveyed the college situation properly, HA (in fact I know I have). I think the college can get away with this if worship doesn't interfere with the curriculum. I'll have to check this out again, but I think the college makes its accommodations providing it doesn't compromise the curriculum. In other words, they feel there's nothing wrong with providing students a place of worship that is only open specific hours, say, lunchtime and/or after school? The college is not promoting one faith over another, it's simply providing a place of worship for students who want such a thing and it's not interfering with anything or anyone. However, when I read BC's link I really feel the problem here is accommodation itself. It's only my opinion, buds, but I think this license situation is a direct reflection of the accommodating society that's dominating most of Europe now. And what concerns me about this accommodation is that it's going all over the board. One country bans burqas in public places, while another country recognizes a pasta strainer as an official religious headgear. One country forms a political party who's only platform is to curtail the rise of Islam, while in some other countries entertain Sharia Law so as to solicit votes. I don't know the secret to success but the secret to failure is trying to accommodate everyone. The problem is accommodation, IMHO. Back to the pool now. Cheers. |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 2, 2011 13:40:23 GMT -5
I don't know the secret to success but the secret to failure is trying to accommodate everyone. The problem is accommodation, IMHO. Back to the pool now. Cheers. That is where my view of accommodating no one is the best course. Otherwise it becomes a political football that the village idiots, aka politicians will make a mess off. And anger people. And cause more extreme action. Politics and religion have no business of any type in public school systems. Any teacher or student who promotes it should be shown the door. Unless of course they want to be Pastafarians..... |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 2, 2011 13:44:40 GMT -5
Slippery slope indeed. Austrian driver allowed 'pastafarian' headgear photoAn Austrian atheist has won the right to be shown on his driving-licence photo wearing a pasta strainer as "religious headgear"www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523I swear to the Gods, CO and I are launching a rescue and painful deprogramming if you embrace Pastafarian... ...unless of course she's hot. |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 2, 2011 13:47:16 GMT -5
I too am an atheist and I absolutely detest any form of religion. Much like free speech, I detest what some people say, but I will defend their right to say it. People can believe anything they want to believe and I support that. Just don't shove it in my face or abide buy it's rules. And don't ask me to pay for it or support it in any form. |
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 2, 2011 15:10:47 GMT -5
Let's leave religion to NASCAR, shall we?
How more ridiculous can you get than that? Jesus, product placement, and smokin' hot wives.
Amen, over and out.
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Post by clear observer on Aug 2, 2011 15:16:42 GMT -5
How more ridiculous can you get than that? The twits that are bowing their heads to it. |
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Post by franko on Aug 2, 2011 16:33:42 GMT -5
How more ridiculous can you get than that? Jesus, product placement, and smokin' hot wives. Amen, over and out. I wasn't going to comment on this topic -- really, I wasn't -- but . . . I'm nothing but embarrassed. |
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Post by franko on Aug 2, 2011 16:44:58 GMT -5
Since I've started . . . That is where my view of accommodating no one is the best course. Otherwise it becomes a political football that the village idiots, aka politicians will make a mess off. And anger people. And cause more extreme action. is this not just accommodating those who don't like something? honest question here. I'll disagree. The public school system is a place for dialogue and discussion . . . and even [within reason] promotion. To say "I believe" is to promote your cause. It's the "within reason" that people will fight over. And proselytizing? No and never. So it seems, once again [horror of horrors -- and that's horror] we agree somewhat: Much like free speech, I detest what some people say, but I will defend their right to say it. People can believe anything they want to believe *, just don't shove it in my face and don't ask me to pay for it or support it in any form. |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 2, 2011 20:22:52 GMT -5
Since I've started . . . That is where my view of accommodating no one is the best course. Otherwise it becomes a political football that the village idiots, aka politicians will make a mess off. And anger people. And cause more extreme action. is this not just accommodating those who don't like something? honest question here. No. I didn't like it when I was suppose to be Greek Orthodox and had to say the Lords prayer (back before I grew my horns) and I don't like it now. Religion is a competitive, tribal sport. One believes that HIS religion is better and that's why he believes in it. It's rare that people convert into another religion. And we know how tolerant some of the religions are....not. So now you have a set of demands from individual religions that compete for equality in what is suppose to be secular school system. Why? I'll disagree. The public school system is a place for dialogue and discussion . . . and even [within reason] promotion. To say "I believe" is to promote your cause. It's the "within reason" that people will fight over. And proselytizing? No and never. Reading, writing and which God is better? That suits those that want to believe in whatever God they want but in the end of the day, it's a faith and has nothing to do with the real world. Sure, talk about different religions in a brief, overview course but never let it be a place of worship. Then there is the issue of how does one teach a subject that is so subjective and filled with issues. Are Muslim teachers going to teach about Islam and the Crusades? How about Christian teacher talking about Mohammed, the wonderful practices of Sharia Law and stoning gays? Thank you, but no thank you. |
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Post by franko on Aug 2, 2011 21:44:47 GMT -5
Religion is a competitive, tribal sport. yes and another believes his lack of religion and unbelief is better yet it happens. and others fall away. and others could care less. but we present the options nonetheless. the flippant reply? "and we know how tolerant some of the anti-religionists are....not." but that is an intolerant and an unacceptable reply. when I hear it I cringe and rebuke. the honest reply? yes, there are intolerant people, and to their shame are aggressive. there appear to be two discussions here: [1] should religion be discussed in a public school setting, and [2] should religion be promoted in a public school setting. I say [1] yes and [2] no. so perhaps I misspoke [or you misread] when I said The public school system is a place for dialogue and discussion . . . and even [within reason] promotion. To say "I believe" is to promote your cause. It's the "within reason" that people will fight over. And proselytizing? No and never. I did not mean to suggest that it would be I just meant to say that for some their spirituality is a large part of how they see themselves and they should be free to discuss it. Not hammer it home. not say "I'm right/you're wrong and you're bound for hell [whatever that may be]. merely be able to say "this is what I believe and why; I hear what you believe and while I may disagree we can still live in harmony" [cue the singing of Kumbaya . . .] yet my faith influences how I live and respond to people in the real world, so it has much to do with it. this is what I was trying to suggest. I agree. that would be interesting to say the least, and there would be quite a bit of muddling through to begin with. but you have that issue with any ethics-based discussion. the teacher's principles and beliefs always shine through. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 5, 2011 7:10:54 GMT -5
Politics and religion have no business of any type in public school systems. Any teacher or student who promotes it should be shown the door. the teacher's principles and beliefs always shine through. Both of you already know this, but I work in two learning institutions. My primary gig is at a military school and my secondary one is at a local community college. The difference between the two is like night and day, yet having to work at either one means I'm also a represenative of those institutions and as such I must promote their values and ethics. It's not so much of an issue in the military institution. I have a military background and promoting the military ethic only prepares the students for their future obligations. However, as a civilian educational facilitator it's very different. I have to be very careful what I say and how I say it, mainly because students may preceive it as what the college may believe as well. This has cost some facilitators their jobs. When you have the time Google "teachers as agents for social change". Teachers, if not careful, can have a significant impact on social change in our society. Some do it quite deliberately while others do it without knowing it. And it's easy to do. Just reflect back on what you may have learned off some of the teachers you've had in the past. The good teachers stay with you as to the bad ones. Cheers. |
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Post by Skilly on Aug 5, 2011 17:50:48 GMT -5
I had a grade 10 English teacher that I had a little clash with ... she was teaching us poetry and was sitting on the window ledge reading us a poem, it was a poem about a tree, and she was staring out the window reading, almost oblivious to anything but the poem she was reading. When she finished, she turned to us, sighed, and said "When I look at a tree, I can't help of think of God" .... I scoffed, and to my fault, it was heard by her. Well she flipped at me for questioning her beliefs, and I countered with what ever happened to letting us make up our own minds about what poems/stories/novels mean to us .... she was always talking about God in our literary works.
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Post by franko on Aug 5, 2011 23:11:49 GMT -5
had a university professor that saw the Garden of Eden in every poem . . . even remembering my field of study, I thought it was pretty ridiculous.
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Post by MC Habber on Aug 5, 2011 23:31:19 GMT -5
AUSTIN, Tex. — In April, as Texas reeled from wildfires and a drought, Gov. Rick Perry sought assistance from the federal government, but also from a higher power. He asked the state to pray for rain, issuing an official proclamation that “I, Rick Perry, Governor of Texas, under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Statutes of the State of Texas, do hereby proclaim the three-day period from Friday, April 22, 2011, to Sunday, April 24, 2011, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas.”
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Five weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks, Mr. Perry bowed his head and said “amen” as a Baptist pastor led a prayer in the name of Jesus Christ. The prayer was noteworthy not for what it said, but for where it was said: at a student assembly in a public middle school in East Texas. Afterward, Mr. Perry said he had no problem ignoring the Supreme Court’s landmark 1962 ruling that barred organized prayer in public schools. www.nytimes.com/2011/08/06/us/politics/06perry.html
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Post by Cranky on Aug 6, 2011 0:55:03 GMT -5
had a university professor that saw the Garden of Eden in every poem . . . even remembering my field of study, I thought it was pretty ridiculous. I had hand-to-hand battles with all my commie teachers at CEGEP. They were all going on about he "beauty", yes, BEAUTY of communism. It came a point where I offered to buy one a one way ticket to Moscow....and I would drive him to the airport. No takers from any of them. Amazingly, to stop me from calling them hypocrites and bs spouters in every class, we made a deal that I wont show up as long as they passe me with the second highest mark. Note my generosity....SECOND highest mark. It would be funny if it was a story....but it's true. |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 6, 2011 0:56:27 GMT -5
AUSTIN, Tex. — In April, as Texas reeled from wildfires and a drought, Gov. Rick Perry sought assistance from the federal government, but also from a higher power. He asked the state to pray for rain, issuing an official proclamation that “I, Rick Perry, Governor of Texas, under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Statutes of the State of Texas, do hereby proclaim the three-day period from Friday, April 22, 2011, to Sunday, April 24, 2011, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas.”
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Five weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks, Mr. Perry bowed his head and said “amen” as a Baptist pastor led a prayer in the name of Jesus Christ. The prayer was noteworthy not for what it said, but for where it was said: at a student assembly in a public middle school in East Texas. Afterward, Mr. Perry said he had no problem ignoring the Supreme Court’s landmark 1962 ruling that barred organized prayer in public schools. www.nytimes.com/2011/08/06/us/politics/06perry.html That's simply pathetic. But not in Ontario. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 6, 2011 14:43:16 GMT -5
AUSTIN, Tex. — In April, as Texas reeled from wildfires and a drought, Gov. Rick Perry sought assistance from the federal government, but also from a higher power. He asked the state to pray for rain, issuing an official proclamation that “I, Rick Perry, Governor of Texas, under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Statutes of the State of Texas, do hereby proclaim the three-day period from Friday, April 22, 2011, to Sunday, April 24, 2011, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas.”
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Five weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks, Mr. Perry bowed his head and said “amen” as a Baptist pastor led a prayer in the name of Jesus Christ. The prayer was noteworthy not for what it said, but for where it was said: at a student assembly in a public middle school in East Texas. Afterward, Mr. Perry said he had no problem ignoring the Supreme Court’s landmark 1962 ruling that barred organized prayer in public schools. www.nytimes.com/2011/08/06/us/politics/06perry.html That's simply pathetic. Somewhat predictable, though. Only my opinion, but I don't believe we'll see an agnostic or atheist elected as president, at least not in our lifetime. However, again IMHO, one of the things you'll have to do if you want to rise in power in the USA, is convince people that you have faith.   Could be talking out of my ear, here, but that's the way I see it. Cheers. |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 6, 2011 20:54:29 GMT -5
Somewhat predictable, though. Only my opinion, but I don't believe we'll see an agnostic or atheist elected as president, at least not in our lifetime. However, again IMHO, one of the things you'll have to do if you want to rise in power in the USA, is convince people that you have faith. Hold on..... I got to pick my teeth.... Damn, I hate skinny babies for lunch..... Okay, now back to your point. It's a well known fact that atheist have no morals. How could they when the invisible hand of God is not holding them back. Worse still, only a believer can have principles simply because the Bible and Koran guide them. 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' King James Bible "If you have suffered a defeat, so did the enemy.We alternate these vicissitudes among mankind so that God may know the true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God does not love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and annihilate the infidels" (3:140).I also don't think we will see an atheist leader within our lifetime. BTW, have you ever tried barbecued "leg-of-baby"? DELICIOUS! |
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Post by franko on Aug 6, 2011 22:41:47 GMT -5
it took how long before there was a Roman Catholic president? otoh, it took how long before there was an evangelical protestant [hey, according to some we eat babies too!].
fwiw, it is ridiculous to vote for someone because of his or her faith or lack thereof. it is equally ridiculous to vote for someone because of his or her participation in union leadership or lack thereof.
somehow policy should be involved instead of personality [or lack thereof ;D ]
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Post by MC Habber on Aug 7, 2011 0:49:22 GMT -5
Somewhat predictable, though. Only my opinion, but I don't believe we'll see an agnostic or atheist elected as president, at least not in our lifetime. However, again IMHO, one of the things you'll have to do if you want to rise in power in the USA, is convince people that you have faith. Could be talking out of my ear, here, but that's the way I see it. Cheers. It's hard to imagine it, that's for sure. I remember during one of the Republican leadership debates this last election, on tv, they put up a little graphic under each candidate when they were speaking. It said the candidate's name, where they were born, and their religion -- all different flavours of Christianity, of course. Not only will we not see an atheist president, we won't see a non-Christian president. |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 7, 2011 4:08:57 GMT -5
fwiw, it is ridiculous to vote for someone because of his or her faith or lack thereof. it is equally ridiculous to vote for someone because of his or her participation in union leadership or lack thereof. Huh? How did you get from talking about religion all the way over there with union leadership? And the two are not related. On is a faith, the other is social/economic/political belief. I can say I'm a Mormon, Roman Catholic, Jew or Buddhist and be any social/economic/political stripe. On the other hand, if I'm a union leader, I can't be much of a free marketeer or right to work advocate.....or I'd dissolve the union. |
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Post by franko on Aug 7, 2011 7:15:10 GMT -5
fwiw, it is ridiculous to vote for someone because of his or her faith or lack thereof. it is equally ridiculous to vote for someone because of his or her participation in union leadership or lack thereof. Huh? How did you get from talking about religion all the way over there with union leadership? pretty easily, actually. vote for me . . . I'm Christian. vote for me . . . I'm your union leader. vote for me . . . I'm straight [although the gay card has less of a draw to it -- in Canada anyway] vote for me . . . I'm charismatic not because I can do the job -- because other than you no once would dare suggest it! [can you imagine HabsRus in government? with 17 as minister of finance, Skilly as minister of infrastructure, Dis as minister of defense, Spiro as minister of entertainment, BC as minister of . . . well . . . let's leave that portfolio unmentioned, shall we ?] |
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