Muslim prayer session in secular school..

[Skilly]

Aug 6, 2011 20:54:29 GMT -5 Cranky said:

It's a well known fact that atheist have no morals. How could they when the invisible hand of God is not holding them back.

I'm not sure I'd agree that they have no morals ..... they just look at the morals of others differently.

I'm not real sure what you'd call me ... I'm not exactly atheist, nor am I really agnostic. I do think there can be (or is, I waver on this depending on the logic loops I tie myself into) a higher power. Is it God? *shrugs* it's a good enough name, so is Herman but we may confuse him with all the other Hermans then. Where Skillyism goes off the beaten path to glory, is its association with that big book of Fables ... don't get me wrong, it is a good read, a good book, and certainly gives one guidance how to live and not live through ambiguity. But someone is going to have a hard time convincing me it is the word of Herman, and/or true.

So by the strict teachings of Christianity, I guess I am atheist. Because how can I accept someone as my saviour if I don't believe in the book that says he is real. However, in true ambiguity, the Bible also says the Holy Trinity is One - the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. And I accept that there is or can logically be proven that there is a One. (ohhhh the conundrum)

But does that leave me without morals? No. I live my life treating others (for the most part) the way I hope they would treat me .... and in the end, that is the "theme" of that Book; but really, I don't think you need to believe in much to live your life according to common sense.

[franko]

Aug 7, 2011 9:19:27 GMT -5 Skilly said:

Aug 6, 2011 20:54:29 GMT -5 Cranky said:

It's a well known fact that atheist have no morals. How could they when the invisible hand of God is not holding them back.

I'm not sure I'd agree that they have no morals ..... they just look at the morals of others differently.

HA's comment reflects a few of the "hard right", though I'm sure it was a tongue-in-cheek comment.

as to no morals . . . you've got it . . . just different morals. even a sociopath has morals -- his own "code" .

I'm not real sure what you'd call me ... I'm not exactly atheist, nor am I really agnostic. I do think there can be (or is, I waver on this depending on the logic loops I tie myself into) a higher power. Is it God? *shrugs* it's a good enough name, so is Herman but we may confuse him with all the other Hermans then.

I'd call you . . . a searcher. an atheist disavows any thought of a religious being as says "we is it"; a searcher isn't sure but is looking . . . and the "more religious of us" [if you want to put it that way] think we have found the way and are on the path. and those to the far right [in whatever religious body they hold to] say "my path or nothing!".

Where Skillyism goes off the beaten path to glory, is its association with that big book of Fables ... don't get me wrong, it is a good read, a good book, and certainly gives one guidance how to live and not live through ambiguity. But someone is going to have a hard time convincing me it is the word of Herman, and/or true.

truth is relative, isn’t it? my view is that biblical literalism is off the mark. While there are some who hold to what is called the “autograph” method of biblical inspiration [God dictated the words, the writers merely took down the words . . . I don’t. Writers wrote what they understood about God . . . or Herman, if you will. but because he [and fwiw I think “he” is gender-neutral] cannot be understood, and because the world itself is difficult to understand, writers . . . may have been slightly wrong [cringes and looks for lightening bolts from the sky]

the biggest mistake people make is thinking the Bible [or Koran, or Torah, or whatever] is a scientific book, it isn’t – they aren’t. it is a religio-spiritual book, trying to understand and explain the ununderstandable and unexplainable.

So by the strict teachings of Christianity, I guess I am atheist.

nope.

Because how can I accept someone as my saviour if I don't believe in the book that says he is real.

treading lightly here, trying to remain seen as a non- proselytizer is it the whole book, front to back that you don’t believe? Or the scientific claims. do you throw out the moral teachings of the one called Jesus, or do reject His existence with the whole of the book? just wondering, that’s all.

However, in true ambiguity, the Bible also says the Holy Trinity is One - the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. And I accept that there is or can logically be proven that there is a One. (ohhhh the conundrum)

I’m sending some people I know for your explanation ;D

But does that leave me without morals? No. I live my life treating others (for the most part) the way I hope they would treat me .... and in the end, that is the "theme" of that Book

as do most. the difference is that I also do so looking to Herman . . . er, God . . . for some direction at times.

but really, I don't think you need to believe in much to live your life according to common sense.

I’d argue with you . . . but I can’t.

Now, as to the original topic . . .

Jul 30, 2011 12:56:20 GMT -5 Cranky said:

The Valley Park Middle School, at Don Mills Road and Overlea Boulevard in Toronto's east end, has been allowing the prayers for three years but only recently attracted the opposition.

The school started offering services on Friday because Muslim students were skipping classes to attend prayers at a nearby mosque. A local imam leads the prayers at the school.

Premier Dalton McGuinty last week said schools and their communities should be responsible for deciding how to accommodate students' religious beliefs.

McGuinty said school boards should make the call based on each school's individual situation and the community in which it is located.

HA says there should be no religious teaching of any kind in school. I say it happens subtly every day, as a teacher will either be pro-religious [not moral] or anti-religious in how he or she says things . . . and that a teachers morals are shown in every situation, even if not overtly.

but as to the topic . . . it’s gotta be all or nothing. your standard has to be the same across the board [and across the boards]. Either say it isn’t allowed in the public system, or say that every group has a right permission to teach .

as to the Catholic Church, the Charter dictates a Separate School board, so we’ll have to accept it.

[Skilly]

Aug 7, 2011 12:52:26 GMT -5 franko said:

treading lightly here, trying to remain seen as a non- proselytizer is it the whole book, front to back that you don’t believe? Or the scientific claims. do you throw out the moral teachings of the one called Jesus, or do reject His existence with the whole of the book? just wondering, that’s all.

As you probably already know, I like to discuss, debate, even argue various topics ... why else come here ...

well during one such religious discussion, a friend told me that my views of the Bible are confused, because I lump fundamentalists in the same group as religious people. He explained to me, that the Bible is not the word of God (as fundamentalists seem to believe) but rather the "inspired word of God". This I could accept. It fell quite nicely into my belief system.

But the more I thought about it, the more I felt the Bible was just a bunch of stories, parables, to highlight how someone ought to treat their fellow man and live their life. So even if it is the inspired word of God, it is no better, IMO than Aesop's Fables (the Torah, Koran, pick your fav moral book) which pretty much do the same thing. How does anyone know that Aesop never got his inspiration from God and never told anyone for fear of blasphemy?

So, yes, due to errors, ambiguity (yes, by humans not God), and errors in science I throw the whole Book out with the wash ... it is just to easy an answer to explain everything as "God can break his own rules" , or "people of true faith just believe" ....

The kicker for me I guess is when you look at the world, more people do NOT believe in Jesus than do. So are they all going to Hell? What makes Christianity better than anything else?

... the teachings? The are, IMO, the foundation of the Book, and not just that book, but many books (such as the aforementioned Aesop's Fables). I think the teachings have their place and worth in my life, but NOT because they came from Jesus, but rather IMO, the are a common sense way to live. I guess I am saying, IMO, it doesn't matter what religion you cling to, its the way you live your life that matters - and IMO you don't need religion to live according to the fables/morals/parables in any Book

Don't get me wrong .. some do need the guidance, the organized prayer, even the social aspect of church to stay the course. I have nothing against that, and if that is what someone needs, I respect and encourage it .... but i take exception to those that would submit that you have to believe in something to gain salvation.

[franko]

Aug 7, 2011 13:42:26 GMT -5 Skilly said:

As you probably already know, I like to discuss, debate, even argue various topics ... why else come here ...

And as you probably already know, I am the same . . . and enjoy this particular topic.

a friend told me that my views of the Bible are confused, because I lump fundamentalists in the same group as religious people. He explained to me, that the Bible is not the word of God (as fundamentalists seem to believe) but rather the "inspired word of God".

The fundamentalists would tell your friend that he was confused . . . or a heretic! I, however, would probably agree with him.

This I could accept. It fell quite nicely into my belief system.

In some ways, that is often how it goes: that’s what I think, therefore I agree with your belief system.

The kicker for me I guess is when you look at the world, more people do NOT believe in Jesus than do.

That is the kicker! I readily admit that culture influences, and since I live in a quasi-Christian culture I am either more likely to be drawn to it than to other religious systems, or seeing the sad results of North American Christianity in action be pushed away from it to [most likely] an eastern religion [although Islam is making great inroads here].

So are they all going to Hell?

Depends on who you talk to, I guess. I’m one of the heretics that believes that “Herman” is not hell-bent does not want to see everyone in Hell . I happened to believe in a God of second chances, and in my reading of “the Book” can point to proof-texts to that end. However, someone else will look at the same passages and say that I am wrong.

I prefer to be right on this so I’ll kindly disagree with them. I guess we won’t know for sure until “the day of judgement” – not only if I’m right on this, but if I’m right in my whole belief system. Of course, if HA et al are right and there is no God it won’t matter anyway, but I’ve chosen to follow this path.

What makes Christianity better than anything else?

Better? Nothing unless it inspires a difference in living . . . and inspiration in difference in living does not necessarily only come from following the leader, I admit.

... it doesn't matter what religion you cling to, its the way you live your life that matters - and IMO you don't need religion to live according to the fables/morals/parables in any Book

You may just be right. Of course, I don’t look at religion but relationship [and here I’ll stop so I don’t get the message from the mods saying I’ve crossed the proselytory line].

Don't get me wrong .. some do need the guidance, the organized prayer, even the social aspect of church to stay the course. I have nothing against that, and if that is what someone needs, I respect and encourage it

Indeed, religious instruction and relationships are what church [of whatever brand] is about.

.... but i take exception to those that would submit that you have to believe in something to gain salvation.

Might I posit that if you don’t believe you aren’t interested in salvation [whatever that may mean to you]?

[Cranky]

Aug 7, 2011 9:19:27 GMT -5 Skilly said:

Aug 6, 2011 20:54:29 GMT -5 Cranky said:

It's a well known fact that atheist have no morals. How could they when the invisible hand of God is not holding them back.

I'm not sure I'd agree that they have no morals ..... they just look at the morals of others differently.

I was being sarcastic.

Besides, leg-of-baby is not that delicious. Taste like chicken.....

[franko]

how a lot of it all may work . . .

[Polarice]

I don't think religion has any place in the education system or government!